Somehow I managed to avoid knowing too many details about the game -- heard something about being very good, and the word metroidvania, but that was about it.

So...

...where is the cutscene explaining the backstory...?
...where is the tutorial that tells me what buttons to press...?
...where is the screen to tell me what my goals are...?
...what exactly are these few counters I see here and there...?
...where is the HUD minimap...? What, I have to earn it?
...what is the purpose of these strange creatures I have seen so far, some out of reach, but have no idea what they are...?

In other words... this is awesome! I get to discover these things as I play... I am hoping it keeps some of this mystery for a while, so I can learn the world as I go! :D :D :D

Cheers!

5 years ago

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Yeah i started to play it a bit and that bugs me just not knowing what to do, where to go.

5 years ago
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Well, I am actually enjoying it... but, yeah, it is a little.... huh... disconcerting... at first... that said, there is just enough to know approximately where to go next, so I am ok with it so far!

5 years ago
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Maybe this map will help you
https://rainingchain.com/hollowknight/map
the HUD minimap you get it buying it from a guy in the first part and then you purchase the feather to update the map as you pregress the game

5 years ago
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Nah, that is ok -- I am actually enjoying not having perfect directions all the time... well, at least so far, because I have not yet felt totally lost... But if I ever get frustrated not knowing where to go next, I will surely try that link, thank you! :D

I found out about the map inside the game, and I thought it was a neat idea.

5 years ago
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lol didn't know you could zoom it for a min. was like damn.

5 years ago
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5 years ago
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Hence the term Metroidvania.

5 years ago
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TIL "metroidvania" is a term for games with lots of backtracking (I mean that without sarcasm, for me it was just some vague term for a platformer sub-genre).

5 years ago
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It's worth noting that it's the "backtracking" (ie, unlocking new routes or interactions in previously visited areas) that defines Metroidvanias more than the platforming component. Hence, much like roguelites only sharing a portion of the traits of roguelikes (and typically emphasizing only the procedural generation or repeated-play elements), you do get "Metroidvania-lites" which primarily base in that core aspect alone.
Of course, the concept of backtracking unlocks was already widespread well before Castlevania and Metroid popularized it (as off-hand examples, Commander Keen games and Zelda games), making it rather difficult to maintain a broader association for the mechanic. Hence, while roguelites (excepting where they've formed their own subgenre, such as Diablo-likes) typically fall under roguelikes in general reference, Metroidvania tends to be a bit more rigid in specifically referring to side-scrolling platformers [a distinction that's similar to how proper roguelikes are all tile-based and turn-based, with those being two of the traits rogue-lites most often differ on].
This is of course notable because most modern Castlevania and Metroid games are 3D platformers or action-adventure games, making modern associations of the term either very rigid, or very loose in application (as the individual prefers).

In short, it's hard to really know off-hand what someone means when they state that a game is a Metroidvania, except for the reliable fact that the game involves some sort of progression-locking mechanism, requiring some degree of backtracking as the game progresses. Put another way, Metroidvania can't necessarily be used as a term for all games which involve backtracking and unlocks, but any game which is referred to as a Metroidvania will (regardless of its other characteristics) certainly have backtracking emphasized.

Also, if you're ever curious about a term, Wikipedia tends to be extremely accurate and detailed about gaming terminology of any sort (though it does tend to be unreliable on subjective elements, such as to what degree a specific aspect of a genre should be weighted). You can usually get a good idea of what a term refers to just from the opening paragraph(s) of any wikipedia article. :)
..And it's my opinion that it should be mandatory for all Steam publishers to view the wiki article on Co-Op before being allowed to post up any game, so that we don't keep getting Team PvP games listed under the tag. -.-;

5 years ago
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Wow, thanks for a great, detailed explanation! :-) I've actually checked Wikipedia for Medroidvania, Metroid and Castlevania after posting, but your post is even better. ;-)

5 years ago
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To add to Sooth's description, Metroidvanias do not necessarily involve lots of backtracking. What they do involve is gradually gaining abilities that open up more of the world to explore, so that going back with new abilities to areas you previously went through now lets you access parts of those areas that you couldn't before. There's a constant sense of progress and exploration and unlocking new tools that let you explore new areas and more parts of old areas.

Backtracking is inherent to Metroidvanias, but it need not necessarily feel like there is a lot of it. For example, if you look at one of the classics and standout examples - Castlevania: Symphony of the Night - there are many things that greatly speed up navigation. From being able to teleport around the map via the fast travel system, to being able to kill early enemies in a single hit, to gaining abilities that let you run through or avoid enemies, the game is designed such that initial exploration of an area is slow while repeat visits to that area are fast and efficient. It's very different from, say, a JRPG that features a lot of backtracking where you're constantly being interrupted and slowed down by random encounters. In a well designed Metroidvania, the backtracking should never feel tedious.

5 years ago
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Really, a good roguelite (specifically, among those which have new unlocks per playthrough) and a good metroidvania are fairly similar- both involve some degree of repetition enhanced with fresh elements and a feeling of evolving gameplay, wrapped up in an exploration-heavy atmosphere.

Unfortunately, grindy, tedious backtracking does seem to be the flavor of more Metroidvanias than not, I think. I'd definitely prefer if more Metroidvanias took an approach similar to Zelda, where each area of the game is littered with obstacles for future interaction, with locations in the game all tied into an interconnected world map rather than by way of linked zones or teleporting. That combination makes it feel like you're exploring deeper into a world as you progress, rather than simply grinding unlocks.
(To that note, I much prefer JRPGs that utilize visible enemies rather than RNG spammed ones. Alongside less visible examples, Zelda games and later Final Fantasy games were definitely welcome changes to that formula.)

I'm also appreciative of soft-locks, where it's possible to progress, with effort or intuition or cleverness, even without having a specific item that'd ease the process. Those really help make Metroidvania-style games (or open world games) feel even more organic.

5 years ago
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Maybe I haven't played the good roguelite's you mentioned, but I like metroidvanias while generally avoiding the roguelikes. For me that's because a metroidvania offers constant progress - even if I die, I just restart from the last save point and keep going - rather than having to start from the beginning all over again.

5 years ago
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I've played about 14 hours so far and I'm loving the game.

5 years ago
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So many people would have died trying to play Metroid on the NES

5 years ago
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5 years ago
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Sounds like you'd enjoy Hyper Light Drifter. Despite light text prompts with button icons in one initial area, you get to figure out everything on your own, no hand holding, just good game design.

5 years ago
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Not a game for you if you need that much handholding
Truly great

5 years ago*
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Wait, no, actually I am saying this is a good thing! I am tired of games that tell you everything you need to know at all times... Discovery is good!

That said, I just started. Maybe later I will find it too hard and ask for clemence! :D

5 years ago
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My apologies, I understood that from your original post and was trying to talk in a general sense. Looks like tired old me messed up :D
I had a blast playing it, I hope you'll continue to enjoy :]

5 years ago
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No apology needed -- I did spend 90% of that post misrepresenting my real feelings, for dramatic effect. :D

Cheers!

5 years ago
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it gets pretty tough in some areas, especially boss fights. i kinda enjoyed it but i'd have liked it way more if it was easier.

5 years ago
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Game is great but at the same time, HIGHLY annoying.

In other words, an amazing game.

5 years ago
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Great game as long as you can get over the complete lack of any way to counter/parry/block attacks. For me that was the main drawback the game had by far (especially when it came to fighting flying enemies that shot projectiles). Otherwise, its a very well made game.

5 years ago
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Got the game back when it was released. Hoped to beat it without using walkthroughs, hints and so on, but found it impossible. Left it unfinished, 150+ hours just wasted.

5 years ago
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i agree, i always liked the feelling of exploring unknowns in the game and its wide possibilities, especially had this feeling with older games ages ago :) as for HK i didn't yet played.

5 years ago
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I still remember when I was fairly early in the game, and a buddy of mine was asking what route I took. He was convinced it was impossible to get to a certain zone in the manner I did, because I didn't have access to certain abilities. Hollow Knight is great in that it's not just a metroidvania, but it's a non-linear metroidvania that allows your progression to branch depending on happenstance and such. It's certain it's entirely possible to complete the game without having access to all of the moveskills.

Oh wow, I need to look up some speedruns now.

5 years ago
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I stopped playing Aquaria for this sole reason. Swimming around in circles for an hour and a half just trying to find where to go next... I hope Hollow Knight isn't the same...

5 years ago
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I actually played and enjoyed Aquaria a lot... I never quite got lost, but the last bosses were BRUTAL... :(

5 years ago
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This thread makes me want to play it now. I have it in my steam library but have never even looked at it. I'm currently playing super mario world on the SNES, if you want to talk about hard. I;m about 90% through it and only have a few stages left to 100% the game, i wasted 3 hours the other day as I couldn't get passed a few levels and you can only save once you complete certain levels.... sheesh. AWESOME GAME.

5 years ago
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I'm surprised no one's mentioned it yet but if you're enjoying all those things you mentioned and haven't played Dark Souls yet you should definitely get to it. DS not only shares all those metroidvania elements but also themes and atmosphere with HK

5 years ago
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Masterpiece.

5 years ago
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Started playing it recently and also loving it. Discovering how everything works is half the fun :)

5 years ago
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I'm like 3 hours in the game and I love it soooo much!
Art is beautiful, music in top notch, and the atmosphere is simply amazing.
And the sense of accomplishment after managing to beat the first "big" boss?

5 years ago
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Funny thing -- I played about 4 hours, very leisurely, exploring and collecting stuff... and... I am not sure if I beat any bosses yet... I mean, there were some "bigger" guys, but, I do not know how "bossy" they were. :D

Cheers!

5 years ago
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The first boss should be False knight.
I encountered him after 3 hours. I spent the first ones collecting stuff for the map.

5 years ago
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Oh, ok -- I have seen this guy. :D

5 years ago
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I won the game recently and I'm also enjoying it. The only issue is that I get lost often because I have terrible direction skills.

5 years ago
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Bump for finishing it... after 72h of gameplay.

Fantastic game.... Only 2 criticisms from me: there was a section near the end which felt very artificial, and the final boss was way way way too hard (well, for me, anyway).

Some space and spoiler tags for details on what I meant...

...

...

I mean, the white palace and its rotating blades... It was not even that hard, but all those blades felt out of place. And by final boss, I mean Radiance, I pretty much gave up on it.

5 years ago
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