What kind of hair does you have??
Having ones noggin/fuzz touched? Still better than getting it bashed in search of booty ...
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What?
I don't think bald people constitute a race.
Edit: This flew over my head as I thought you were talking about the murders being racist, but if you're calling me racist, then you might consider that you're the racist one if you think that Africa's problems can only be race-related >>
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That may not qualify as racism, but it is still not tolerated.
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You all must be projecting or something.
To me, all the cruelty and horror that African superstition and the culture surrounding it creates is beyond uncivil. You might be inclined to think "Oh, well what about people in the rest of the world that do bad things?", despite decrying the the general use of what-aboutery when you find yourselves in the opposite position. However, the difference is that these "traditional healers" and the superstitions that they push command the attention, respect and even fear of ordinary people. And when you add tribal attitudes on top of it, you get groups of people that want to rape virgins for vitality and cures. You get literally HUNDREDS of people in a village complicit in the murder and consumption of other people. And now when I see yet another example of African superstition leading to something as barbaric as killing and trying to dig gold out of the heads of bald people, I denounce the African tribal superstition that created it, just as you might weakly try to denounce my intolerance of it as "racism" or something like it.
When you compound this with the fact that Africa is known for its rampant corruption and violent politics (remember the 2007 Kenyan electoral violence that left more than 1,100 people dead and hundreds of thousands of people injured, displaced and put at risk?), high homicide rates, extensive human rights abuses and even SLAVERY - some forms of which are astoundingly legal in some African countries - then I think we're all perfectly right to shake our heads in dismay.
So yes, my relatively quick and benign quip may have been generalising. But it was not generalising what you wanted to insert into it. It was generalising the problematic political and cultural regions of a place called Africa - within which some countries are admittedly measurably better than others.
If you want an analogy of why your knee-jerk suspension and the knee-jerk emotional outrage of others is ridiculous you can think of it like this: There is a neighbourhood in a city. The crime in that neighbourhood is elevated far above the rest of the city. That neighbourhood is more dangerous. People call it a rough neighbourhood. You live in that neighbourhood but are not a criminal despite being aware of the facts. Are you morally outraged when someone names your neighbourhood as the worst, most problematic part of the city? Probably not, I'd imagine.
Finally, you should really be less tolerant of things like systematic murder, rape and mutilation that are predicated on dangerous superstitions. And perhaps you SHOULD tolerate those that meekly denounce them and control your knee-jerks, or at least open a dialogue instead of slamming down your hammer when you think you hear something that warrants moral outrage as defined by this pervasive culture of social justice outrage that seems to be everywhere over the last half decade.
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Thanks for poking at it mate! :-) Was surprised to see you were also 48hrs suspended
for merely being associated and lumped with the reported "racis" reply i posted ...
It is twisted into what/how "culture" is developing ... the facts are ugly,
but the outrage as you brilliantly and in full detail put it, is misguided.
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Guilty by whatever ephemeral association, yep, probably.
I don't even agree with your general views as you might recall from discussing racial discrimination with me in a thread not so long ago, but at least you welcome and are open to discussion, haha. And just because I disagree with much of what you say, doesn't mean the things you're concerned about are invalid. No one likes irrational murder, exploitation or criminal behaviour.
And yeah, some facts are ugly, which is maybe why many don't want to see, hear or think about them - particularly when they automatically assume it directly relates it to race, religion, sex, etc.
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To me, all the cruelty and horror that African superstition and the culture surrounding it creates is beyond uncivil.
Africa is a continent. Upon it, may be found multiple races, and a great many cultures. Moreover, Africa was home to multiple, "grand civilizations" long before most of the rest of the world had anything to leave a mark. While gross ignorance and hyper-generalization are not usually a punishable offense, denigration of an entire group of people based solely upon their location is. Nor was there anything "benign" about your quip.
If you are still unable to comprehend what you did wrong, take another look at the analogy you tried to use. I might not take it personally if my neighborhood is "the worst, most problematic part of the city," but I would take exception if someone said our neighborhood was "the cradle of uncivilizaion."
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I do indeed realise that humanity (and consequently civilisation) probably emerged from Africa as is so commonly taught, though I do believe the first great civilisations popped up in the middle east. Regardless, that was the exact reason for the almost satirical wordplay. It was a disapproving quip on the internet, that's all. But I don't suppose it matters because it personally offended someone regardless. What a villain I am for hurting the feelings of those that are probably even more grossly ignorant on the topic to which I was referring; one of my good friends from back in school is Kenyan and we talk about it all the time.
To be honest, I think more people should be talking about this stuff (especially here in Europe) because the world is a lot smaller now than it was a couple of hundred years ago. But there's so much emotion - fear - of speaking about things that someone on the sidelines can interpret as talking about race or religion or sexuality. This is the exact same thing that protected Kevin Spacey for so long. There are many instances of him acting very inappropriately - allegedly to those that were underage even (something he hasn't denied as far as I know) - but no one spoke about it because he was a closeted homosexual.
I'm fairly certain that if I instead chose to to appear zealous and directly called Africa one of the worst, most problematic continents of the planet, many would have taken even greater offense because that is even more detailed and emotive.
But you can instead imagine this for your exception: Your neighbourhood has a plaque commemorating "community spirit" from a time long past. It reads "We succeed together" or something more original. Then someone makes a quip relating it to the size of gangs, gang violence and gun crime because it's one of the worst neighbourhoods. We must silence them! No comedy! No satire! Ban it all!
As someone that grew up in an inner city neighbourhood in Britain where gun control is pretty strict, yet the neighbourhood I lived in had 5 - 7 times more gun crime fatalities and even higher knife crime and gang violence, I'll be the first to admit it was a shithole. So many of the people I went to school with in that area became criminals. Some of them have been killed in drug-related violence. It was a shithole at the time, despite there being some good families and little old women living nearby; it didn't matter, it was what it was.
Finally, I do understand why you might want to say something on what I said. Perhaps you could have agreed that the culture of superstition can be tragically uncivil and that Africa has a lot of progress to make to catch up (which I do know is happening), but that there are plenty of good, honest people and positive parts of the culture. I would have simply agreed and maybe we could have discussed it.
Oh well, enjoy your evening.
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I'm fairly certain that if I instead chose to to appear zealous and directly called Africa one of the worst, most problematic continents of the planet, many would have taken even greater offense because that is even more detailed and emotive.
It would, however, have been more accurate and less personal. If you had said, "Africa: land of many troubles" or something similar, nothing would have come of it because it would have been a qualified statement of a well-known fact. Instead, your chosen wording disparaged the societies---and therefore people---of an entire continent. Oddly enough, you still don't seem to understand that.
You mentioned the neighborhood in which you grew up. (It sounds just like the one in which I grew up.) You acknowledge it was a rough place to live, but you wouldn't apply its description to the entire U.K., would you? Or all of Europe? Your "quip" was the equivalent of exactly that, and if anyone had dared to talk about "the shithole Europeans live in," I would have suspended him or her similarly. Britain and it's people are not characterized by that crime-ridden neighborhood, nor is the rest of Europe.
For some reason, however, you seem to view "Africa" as one collective group of people, having one culture, speaking one language, and having one history. Nothing could be further from the truth. Africa is made up of many different peoples having many different cultures and speaking many different languages. Even the different sections of the continent have wildly different histories. You should be able to understand this as France, Italy, and Germany are quite different despite being adjacent to each other. Even if you are referring to common practice when you reference a "culture of superstition," that practice is neither ubiquitous within African countries nor restricted to them. In fact, due to my European background, most of the superstitions I am familiar with are European ones, yet you are not bashing Europe for being "uncivil."
While it is good to be aware of what is going on in the world, be aware of what you do not know. Understand that you may have only partial information, no information or even misinformation about places you have never been. As such, one should be cautious in drawing conclusions and making judgements based upon them.
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I see what you're saying. Sugar-coat and over-qualify the words so it does not hurt peoples' feelings; definitely stay away from wordplay or any exercises in wit if peoples' feelings are at risk. Either way, I was saying that bad things happen in Africa that are counter-productive to civilisation. I'm a firm believer in putting aside harmful superstitions and it just so happens that Africa contains a lot of that in harmful forms. Could I have been more accurate? I've admitted so already, but it was a one-liner in a random forum thread that identified a problem within Africa, not an essay and certainly nothing to do with race as others might think (I don't think race defines us. Our actions do). Oddly enough, you still don't seem to understand that.
It sounds like you're not getting that the neighbourhood is Africa and the city is the world. Other than that, I'm pretty sure you and everyone else would not be so volatile were Europe or America to be criticised - or indeed if it was generalised to the maximum with something like "We're all terrible people destroying our planet like a virus", or bringing it back more closely on the topic of war, famine, exploitation and senselessness: "The whole world is uncivil". You probably wouldn't feel much emotion over that, let alone hand out suspensions.
Yeah I know Africa is diverse, but again, I wasn't talking about any groups of people >> I was using Africa as a label to broadly point to the origins of the problems I was thinking about - ie, directly referring to the problems (African superstition) instead of making it about particular groups of people like everyone seems to love doing...
You know, some might say there's a lot of unrest in South America at the moment; would it be wrong to say it's full of corrupt power structures that cause this? Just because they're not specifying particular factions, cultures or countries? I don't think so. Again, it's hardly any different.
I am bashing superstition, period. As I said before, superstition in Africa has weight and power. It is not the same as "break a mirror and you get 7 years bad luck!" that no one really believes. Furthermore, there is no authority on superstition in Europe like there is in Africa (unless you count religion as superstition, but I don't go that far despite feeling that some of it is applicable - but yes religion can be a problem that kills people too).
You know what I don't mind even though it has no basis in scientific reasoning? Folklore. Nothing wrong with folklore most of the time, whether it's African or not. I believe you have can harmless animalist folklore as long as it has no authority. It enriches cultures and celebrates the past without living in it.
The only thing I am aware of is my own beliefs - my humanism - and the practices around the world that tend to run counter to them more than I'm comfortable with. If you disagree that these practices are uncivil and that in particular, it's not a problem in Africa more than it is where you and I live, then I'm not sure what to say - only that I think you're wrong and that I hope we all find the strength to speak out against it without the fear of moral outrage.
Finally, I do at least agree that it's best to be cautious when making judgments, but at the same time, understand you'll never gain perfect knowledge, while striving for it takes a lifetime of dedication and pedantry. So you have to make do with what you can and always try to make rational judgments.
I do not know everything - even the things I assume I do know. For example, I have never been to Australia. I'd like to go to Australia - I've seen it on maps. I've heard people speak with an accent. I've seen videos of supposed places in Australia, but I've still never witnessed it with my own eyes or stepped foot on it. Can I really say it exists? Sure I can - that's my best, most rational judgement with the evidence given.
And you're right that misinformation is a problem, which is why communicating is always preferable to any form of censorship in my opinion; more enjoyable too.
On that note, I appreciate the communication here - I didn't think I'd get much of a discussion :P Sorry for the walls of text.
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Oddly enough, you still don't seem to understand that.
Actually, I do understand that. That was not, however, what prompted this conversation. You did not mention bad things happening in Africa. Instead, you claimed the people of Africa were uncivilized and responsible for such behavior in the world. That may not have been the idea you were trying to convey, but that was the meaning of the words you chose. But wait, there's more.
... the neighbourhood is Africa and the city is the world.
(African superstition)
...superstition in Africa has weight and power.
- A true parallel cannot be drawn between a city and a continent because the complexity of the latter is much greater than that of the former.
- There is no "African superstition*
- Superstition (in general) has a strong influence in some places at some times with some people, but it cannot be generalized to an entire populace.
You keep making broad, sweeping generalizations about "Africa," "Africans," and "African superstition," with the result that you come across as someone who is ignorant and bigoted. I have a good idea how my African friends would react were they to hear such statements about their continent or country because I've been there with them to see it happen. (Some of them have even used the word "racist," although I corrected them. Prejudice is not the same as racism.) Even Sociologists qualify their statements when discussing an aspect of culture such as superstition, yet you do not. Either you are struggling to express yourself clearly, or you simply don't know any better.
Assuming for the moment that the problem is the former, you need to be more specific. For example, if you wanted to talk about the role tribalism played in the Hutu-Tutsi conflict, then you talk about that specifically. You don't decry tribalism in all of Africa because there are many parts of Africa where such tribalism is almost non-existent, and still other parts where it plays an opposite role. Things get even more complex if you mention countries because national boundaries have no relation to tribal territories in Africa.
TL; DR: It is quite difficult to make generalizations about people without coming across as prejudiced.
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You did not mention bad things happening in Africa [in your original comment]
The article mentioned (yet another instance of) something bad happening in Africa due to the uniquely African superstitions that are orchestrated by traditional healers. That's what I was replying to - that was the context. And I'm mentioning even more now for you.
So whether I say "Africa" or "African superstition", you're not happy either way even though it's a true albeit general description. I'd argue that you're a little too sensitive and making assumptions that anyone that speaks negatively about these things must harbour some kind of hatred towards some identification of people. The thing is - again - I'm not thinking in terms of groups of people and I'm not expressing hatred or prejudice of people; it's not how I think. However, I am expressing a dislike of those practices and the (particular aspect of the) culture sustaining it that I believe everyone should denounce, while being aware of the many other problems in the "African region".
A true parallel cannot be drawn between a city and a continent because the complexity of the latter is much greater than that of the former.
You're right, but it was just a simple analogy for my simple one-liner comment, not a true parallel worthy of anything greater than its surface meaning. Africa has greater levels of incivility regardless.
There is no "African superstition"
Several parts of Africa are notorious for the irrational belief in witchcraft and superstition that drives the poverty-stricken to seek shortcuts to wealth, prosperity or curing ailments. Whether this is abducting/"buying" virgins and raping them, killing and chopping other human beings for "muti" to ingest, or trying to dig gold out of the heads of bald men.
You likely wouldn't have a problem if I was describing some positive aspect of culture as "African". It's just a simple generalisation denoting a geopolitical sphere of influence. Or if you will, a label describing a collection of neighbours that make up the African Union.
Superstition (in general) has a strong influence in some places at some times with some people, but it cannot be generalized to an entire populace.
Well I agree that it has a strong influence in some places- and not just within Africa either. Many parts of Asia are also well-known for their relatively backwards superstitions (one of the most notorious being the consumption of unborn babies for virility in China - there was even a film based upon that, did you ever see it? It made me shudder). I'm against baseless superstition "generally", however, I was talking about the strong influences within Africa where there exists structures that perpetuate those superstitions.
You keep making broad, sweeping generalizations about "Africa," "Africans," and "African superstition,"
Well let's get that straight. My generalisations have been on Africa alone. I don't think I've mentioned "Africans". That's your own insertion.
Even Sociologists qualify their statements when discussing an aspect of culture such as superstition, yet you do not.
I'm not a sociologist writing a paper. I'm just some random person on the internet that wants the world to be a better place. And if all people do is hide away whenever problems are mentioned because "it's offensive", or because it can be interpreted as racism or prejudice merely for expressing disappointment in places that have not even achieved parity with the standards by which you live, then they're not helping.
I just thought everyone was generally aware of the problems in Africa - you seem to have been aware of them before hand too - so I'm not sure why obtuse qualification was required anyway, but you could have just asked (ie. we could have discussed in a place for discussion). Oh well, you've gotten plenty of qualification now!
Either you are struggling to express yourself clearly, or you simply don't know any better.
I think I am expressing myself just fine. I immediately admitted to generalisation while expressing that I was not generalising all people in Africa. You seem to be struggling with that concept because you keep coming back to it, even inserting words to make it seem like it's about Africans or race. It's not.
I think what you really have problem with is the "politics of statistics", and I understand that. It's natural to want to qualify statistics with feelings; the regular "most people aren't bad" and such - I've done it myself before. But I do believe it's erroneous to replace the statistics with nothing but feelings.
You don't decry tribalism in all of Africa because there are many parts of Africa where such tribalism is almost non-existent, and still other parts where it plays an opposite role.
That's true. But it's still African tribalism. And it exists in Africa. And creates problems within Africa. True, a lot of the problems are concentrated in Southern Africa, but not limited to it. Take, for example, the Islamic Republic of Mauritania in Northern Africa, where slavery was only criminalised a mere 10 years ago. The progress must be applauded, but it would be foolish to assume that's the end of it - it's been estimated that hundreds of thousands of people are still enslaved (as much as 20% of the population) - much of the servile being black and the masters being Arab/Muslim, leading to real racism and discrimination that still runs rampant. From north to south, Africa has problems with modern civility.
Now on that case, I remember reading an account from a girl in one such country where they had slaves. I believe it was an Arab household and they had black slaves. She admitted that she never really thought about it too much - it was "just how it was". However, it's not unthinkable to imagine that she was generally kind-hearted if inherently prejudiced, because she eventually changed her mind once she grew up and experienced the rest of the world. That's why I don't speak of "people", because I know that everyone has the potential for both good and bad. I just speak of the actual problems against the advancement of civilisation, and Africa has them from north to south, in greater quantities than my own continent.
And yes, it's difficult to speak about some things for fear of being labelled as a racist/bigot (or on the other side of the coin, something like "feminist" which has gained sour connotations recently) because of our irrational counter-productive culture of outrage that automatically polarises people into extreme left or extreme right on the political spectrum. That's a different topic, though >>
TL;DR: Read the wall D:<
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Well it seems this is the end of the conversation.
In the end, it seems you must concede on all my points for a lack of refuting. It seems the main problem was one of semantics - you and others thought it was racially charged despite no mention of race (only Africa, within which are many races as you yourself point out) and so the fault was with your sensitivity - it may need adjusting. All of my statements were true in their meaning which is probably why I didn't receive another suspension for repeating myself.
The entire world - all places and cultures - contains bad people that do bad things. If you're religious, you might blame this on the "original sin" or the devil, which is a convenient way of removing any responsibility. But I'd say it's largely down to problematic societies and culture, not all of which are equal. Some have a higher propensity for the things we condone as "bad", even if everyone has the potential to avoid it.
The entire world - all places and cultures - contains good people that do good things too, and I'm glad for it. I think it's sometimes useful to remember that none of us would be where we are if it wasn't for the cooperation of those around us, and those that came before us. It's in our best interests to cooperate and be good to one another.
Finally, I will concede that I did not realise that people would disregard what I was talking about and instead focus on the non-existent (largely racial) prejudice. If I'd known, I would have used a more serious and qualified tone to avoid the gross misrepresentation that followed - though I suspect that this would not have mattered to some regardless.
Take care, and be excellent.
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...why exactly did you feel the urge to post the section on the right of this?
Jesus. Some people. :u
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Satan made me do it, i swear. Nah, whoever added it, did so to force a slightly more nuanced giggle ... instead of only
"thats african trickz olright". Facts aren't racis, nor is that shieeet-meme with common african characteristics.
People are outraged about the wrong things these days ...
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I started to doubt the accuracy of this un-referenced demographic datum of "64 IQ" when the pic shows that that Mozambique ranks in at #41 ?! The rest of the countries of the world clock in even lower?
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I think it might be referencing this: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
As you can see here, there are many ties which mean that Mozambique being #41 does not mean it is the 41st country on the list. There are some sources there if you're interested (I haven't looked through them myself so can't vouch for the absolute validity of this list).
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Yes, I suppose using a derogatory stereotype meme could be referred to as looking for a 'slightly more nuanced giggle' if you really want to turn sugarcoating up to 11. It's literally a caricature that was created for the sole purpose of use in race memes, and you're claiming innocence here? You're fooling nobody.
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One could argue that caricatures of people are made all the time without much fuss - be it political figures, celebrities or certain demographics. I agree that much of the time, it's not very tasteful comedy when it's used as a tool and not just a piece of funny art. Ironically enough however, I do think the "slightly more nuanced giggle" referred to the actual racism, purely based on what I know of the character of the person that posted it. But the perceived racist nuance of the caricature still doesn't invalidate the article or IQ ranking, unfortunately.
If a "meme" really had to be inserted, I think a Picard face-palm would have done nicely. Wouldn't stop some people from claiming that you're a white supremacist lording over other races from the Captain's chair though :( Maybe if it was Janeway, it would carry less of that vibe.
Either way, I agree with you that there was no need for it, especially when all it does is widen the divide between people, creating more racism on both sides for no reason - which I think is one of the biggest things that perpetuate racism today.
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Whaaaa? A country with an average IQ over 2 standard deviations below the average? Such an imaginative "fact" raises so many questions... not the least of which might be the IQ of the poor people who believe such a "fact". It's almost as if something gets in the way of their thinking.
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Yep, get a lot of touching with tattoos as well. But as the Street Harassment thread has demonstrated, some people still don't understand that dressing/styling/tattooing in a certain way is not permission to touch.
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you just want to be reported for being a feminist. 🚨
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Why would someone want to touch a tattoo? It has the same texture as skin, as the ink is under the skin, not above..?!
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Okay I have to break my forum hiatus for this. I've got loads of tattoos and I know people that do, some even literally covered from head to bottom, and noone EVER wanted to touch a tattoo. It seems like you don't want to be left out and made it up.
Now the only issue I have with my tattoos is that people want to see them because they think that's the reason I've got them, for people to see 'em while I got them for me and noone else. So when you tell them you've got tattoos on your legs and torso they think it's legit to ask you to undress but noone ever freakin' touched a tattoo of mine or anyone I know. 😂
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I can confirm there are people who touches tattoos, from what i have seen it's usually from other friends/family and not strangers.
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I might've expressed it in a wrong way. I don't doubt that people touch tattoed skin. I can definitely see that happen when you actively show someone your tattoo, just like when you tell someone you bought a product and people hold it in their hands for closer inspection. My issue is comparing having tattoos to people justifying sexual harrassment because of revealing clothing, because I've never heard that someone was compelled to touch tattoos out of the context of an existing relation between the people involved and actively showing or talking about the tattoo. I've never experienced someone coming up to me touching me: "Ooohhh, aaahh, tattooos. Loooooove to touch them! Can't help it!"
I hope that gets the point across.
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I have a tattoo on my inner forearm and when I was working a man grabbed my wrist and turned my arm so he could see it. People think you are just a piece of art so they can look at it. Like you said, I got my tattoo for ME and that means nobody has the right to touch or look at it in that way. Look from a distance but don't touch me to see it.
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Sorry Sadistic, your experience isn't valid because Downward has loads of tattoos and he's never seen this happen. Case closed.
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No worries, I believe you, but why? That sounds so dumb, no wonder I have trouble imagining it. Was that guy a complete stranger that came up to you and just did that out of the blue?!
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No idea! I was working on the checkouts scanning items and the customer just grabbed my wrist. He wanted to see my tattoo... it was weird and I was like "please don't touch me"
Glad you haven't had the same. Surprising really cause you have a few! :O
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Yeah, I cringe that I said "loads" myself, but I have friends that are covered completely and yes, they do complain about prejudice, funny looks and constantly being asked about it as if they had nothing else to offer, but being touched has never been something I heard. So I was genuinely confused, but that guy sounds like a damn creep. Didn't know that was a thing.
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Well holy shit man, I guess if you haven’t directly experienced something within your own limited social circle, then it must not occur anywhere else in the world. Silly me.
If only there was a way to confirm this.
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Well holy shit man, way to go when someone is disagreeing with you or is skeptical. Maybe I would've respected your story more if you didn't compare it to actual issues of sexual harrassment that exist. Sorry someone touched your arm then. How's the therapy for PTSD?
Seriously tho. Don't.
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What? Where in my comment did I compare it to sexual harassment?
Yep, get a lot of touching with tattoos as well. But as the Street Harassment thread has demonstrated, some people still don't understand that dressing/styling/tattooing in a certain way is not permission to touch.
I compared it to harassment in general, i.e. people not recognizing social cues and appropriate times to touch others. I also never claimed traumatic stress. I'm not sure where you're getting off, here, or why you're trying to shift your ire toward me personally.
And still, even above replying to Sadistic, you're still questioning her experience. As if it has to live up to some sort of litmus test until you experience it yourself.
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I feel like saying I don't owe you this, since you're really salty, but let me try to be a better person and admit to error, but only if you can elaborate how "dressing in a certain way" and touching has nothing to do with the whole "they were asking for it" argument considering clothing and sexual harrassment. You seem to experience things I haven't and never heard of, from what you conceive as a limited social circle.
And no, I am not questioning that it happened to Sadistic. I am curious and expressed that I'm confused that this even happened in the first place. I can't fathom why someone would do that. Don' try to rally people up against me, thanks. You got different treatment because of your comparison to other issues and putting it on the same level.
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but only if you can elaborate how "dressing in a certain way" and touching has nothing to do with the whole "they were asking for it" argument considering clothing and sexual harrassment.
Well, except it does. But you're incorrectly interpreting that my harassment was sexual and/or equating it to being sexual. Overall, it's the same premise-- some people believe that doing your hair a certain way, wearing certain clothes, or inking your skin blatantly somehow implies that you are seeking attention and should not balk if it's received in a less than pleasant manner. Not all harassment is sexual, as discussed in the mentioned thread, but it's certainly harassment if you don't give consent. Again, a lot of people infer such permission is given by the act itself of displaying such hairstyle/dress/tattoo.
You seem to experience things I haven't and never heard of, from what you conceive as a limited social circle.
You seem to be taking this personally. We all have limited social circles, objectively. Case in point, you have never encountered this form of harassment, yet countless examples have been provided.
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Okay, I see what you mean, but try to understand my point of view. If I said, well murder is always murder. No matter if it's in self-defense or if someone wanted to take someone's life. The motivation of an act changes the definition entirely in my opinion. People groping someone because of a revealing dress out of sexual drive and someone touching your arm out of curiosity is, in my opinion, two seperate things.
Yes, I did take that personal for reasons you couldn't know of. Isn't everything limited, though? (Except the universe, yadda yadda)
If I said your intellect is limited, I could argue that you can't know everything and when you're in a somewhat tense discussion it would seem like an insult, doesn't it? But hey, why do you take it personal.
But why am I even trying to talk about it. Agree to disagree, I suppose, no matter what I say.
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You literally said "It seems like you don't want to be left out and made it up."
They don't need to 'rally' anyone, you accused someone randomly and with the only basis that it never happened to you and tried to suggest that Doc was just seeking attention. If you're an ass to someone, why yes, they really might just react in 'salty' fashion. It's one thing to voice disbelief or contrast your own experiences, but a completely different one to accuse of lying for attention, so don't play it off as if you were just expressing curiosity. You lost the whole 'be the better person' thing the moment you opened your mouth to launch into the pointless character assassination. They also didn't put it on the same level, they remarked that people cannot seem to comprehend the concept of personal space, and pointed to the other thread in reference. Your deflecting isn't really convincing given your original post is literally just a tiny scroll up above, so can you just like... be cool and stop trying to pick a senseless fight?
Honestly it's like people can't stay chill for more than ten seconds without reflexively trying to start back intoweird tribal pissing matches.
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So? What are you trying to achieve?
I said I wanted to try to be a better person, acknowledging that I had a possibility to improve my behaviour, knowing I might not succeed to everyone's satisfaction. I didn't say I wanted to be the better person. I explained why I reacted the way I did, because I was irritated that he mentioned his experience in the same breath with the whole slut shaming issue. I expressed why I couldn't comprehend the issue of people touching tattoos, because it should've affected a lot of friends, myself and the culture I inhabit.
Yes, accusing him was a dick move, but I tried to explain myself beyond that. I could've just called him an attention seeking SJW, which you think I have, but if you've taken a calmer, second look I really tried not to and haven't.
So I want to ask you again: What are you trying to achieve? Do you want me to die of guilt? I really don't know, but I'd like to hear it, because I didn't pick a senseless fight and just threw insults around. I wanted to hear what he had to say.
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Huh, well your apparent change in attitude was a complete u-turn from your first two posts then.
It should already apparent from my comment, but what I was trying to achieve was showing you that your behavior hadn't gone unnoticed, and was unpacking what appeared to be a false claim to innocence. I mean, even during your u-turn you opened with an "I don't owe you this" mentality and called them salty, despite a claim at trying to be a better person. It made me see red flags,
Though it seems I was wrong about your intentions, so my bad then. Not to rail on you or anything, but I'm sure you can see why your post can easily be read a different way though?
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I am aware of the provocative nature of my first post, yes.
And the "I don't owe you anything" part was my way of coping with backing out, while he already commented to Sadistic, removed me from his whitelist and all. I thought it was obvious in that regard that I didn't really want to make a step towards him, but hey, I tried.
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Hey, it's more than most can claim to have done.
Didn't mean to bite your head off or anything, the forums have had a lot of bad vibes floating around lately and I guess it's bringing out a wonky defensive 'big brother' routine in me :P Not like I can claim total innocence on tone or behavior either I suppose.
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I fully understand.
That's what my "forum hiatus" was referencing. I haven't commented or participated in discussion for a long time, because of what the community has become.
So if you'll excuse me, I probably gonna go back into hiding now.
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What if you have a tattoo that says "Please touch me, you're allowed". Eh? Eh?
No but seriously: I've never actually seen anyone touch another persons hair or tattoo without explicit permission. Or even with permission.
Maybe it's a cultural thing? I dunno. When I see someone's tattoo the thought of touching wouldn't even cross my mind. It's so weird to me.
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That always struck me as annoying as hell. It's like... if you have an acquaintance with a shaved head do you just randomly get your grope on with their skull? It's one thing if you know them well enough and you make a habit of teasing or pestering each other for laughs, then hair touching is akin to a slap across the back of the head, harmless but invasively annoying, done to make the other person cringe in reflex. Anything less than established buddies of that level? Yeaaaah, no.
Also grats on the clickbait, you got me. :P
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I never looked at black people hair the same again after watching this movie. The amount of work you guys put in is crazy. Sucks that you have to deal with peeps not knowing basic boundaries :/.
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well we gotta learn something everyday, even tho it wasnt exacly what I was looking for.
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Live your life the way you want , not the way others think you should , my motto is ftw I used to have long hair with tattoos and dressed like a heavy metal rocker/biker with chains and stuff on me like upside down cross , so imagine the looks I got , now I lost my hair (cost less shampoo)and I dress more normal aside I'm always in black and wearing band shirts but I still get these looks...
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-> 2017
-> still have something that grow on your head
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i've been dealing with that since i got dreadlocks. well, even more i mean. <_<
that and also getting offered weed 50 times per night, because you know, hairstyle is everything. >_>
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Man, it was so much easier finding weed when I had long hair.
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hahahahaha damn here is easy, whatever hair style you have Now I'm sad about that
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Well, I can go to Faculty of Humanities and buy, almost all the students have, or any other university, private, public, or some streets are well known, the saddest thing rich people, and talking about politicians too, consumes hard drugs from the same dealers they allow.
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That last sentence is the reason I only ever had an afro until a bit ago. Most other "black styles" carry the stereotype of criminal, while afro was just goofball.
Tho those stereotypes don't carry over to the other gender, so noe I wonder how people see me.
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First world problems
A generation so privilieged and yet so whiny
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Oh jesus fucking christ, fuck off already. If you live in the first world, all of your problems are first world problems.
Decrying one problem does not dismiss all others.
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Being grateful is morally right, and don't pretend that isn't the case.
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lol @ shifting that goalpost, buddy
Of course we should be grateful. Being grateful =/= never complaining.
I'm not really trying to pick a bone with you here, I'm just sick of this ridiculous "there are other problems" argument. Should I be shitting on you for not talking about my homeland Puerto Rico right now?
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You should complain about what you don't like, but the original post is relatively big and points out something that i've never ever seen happen and doesn't sound like a big deal. This is the kind of thing that you can name in just a few seconds, but i'm sure this post took longer to write.
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it's annoying as fuck when random idiots want to rub your head because the texture's different. Just because you've never seen it happen doesn't mean it never happens. I've never witnessed an actual murder, but I know it exists.
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It only takes a few seconds to give away a game, too. Maybe give that a try sometime.
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You got me! I believe that everyone should give away at least one game. Wait, I think that makes me, like, a socialist or something? Not sure.
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I mean people touching you without permission really is a big feel. But I didn't really make it onr in this post, this was mostly an excuse to make a ga.
Also five paragraphs is big? Pls stay in school lol. It took the time to boil water fpr my pasta, I didn't write a fucking eassy.
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Oh jesus fucking christ, fuck off already.
I just want to +1 that part.
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A fine example : Being someone who can literally be given videogames for free, but still finds the time to whine at someone using an off-topic forum for talking about a humorous gripe.
But don't be so hard on yourself, I'm sure with reflection you can change your attitude. <3
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don't touch hair, just lick it
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i just cut myself with a hair cutter to the maximum possible :p.
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I used to have golden blonde shirley temple hair (still curly but now it's brown with 'glints' as my family has taken to calling them)
I'd often get stressed outside cause no matter where i went, Asian tourists would want to have a photo with me, they'd also continuously pet me and stroke my hair
If i feel something grab my hair nowadays I just assume its someone tugging on my curls to see its pigtail like effect and just die inside
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My question is. Why every week here's a new thread made by you where you complain for something?
You complain because of people who don't respect you, your decisions or your opinion, but you don't respect the fact that not everyone will think the same as you. Which's the point of that? You want respect, but you don't offer respect...
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Shitpost to make a giveaway is the only purpose.
I just find some excuse to make a thread where I can post a ga.
I'm confused by your second point. And I don't not respect people with differing opinions. I don't care for respect anymore, I just want people to fuck off. But I haven't brought that up in a long time so I don't see the relevance.
Asking to not be touched does not make me owe people respect.
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My question is : Why do you open these threads if you object to them so much?
Nothing about this thread is disrespectful, nor demands that other people think the same as her, and is airing a personal gripe while keeping some humor about it and offering a giveaway. Instead of throwing pointless salt everywhere, maybe let the chill things just be chill without stretching it into an excuse to be rude? :P
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My barber started sensually running his fingers through my luscious curly hair, commenting about how amazing it was and how he could just play with it all day long, and then called all the other barbers over to feel it -- and they did. This was in a stereotypical 1950s-style barber shop and they were all elderly men.
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An appropriate audio accompaniment for your gif : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOy6hqzfsAs
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I had a similar problem with people touching my beard when I was in high school(grade 9 to 12).
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I feel your pain. I used to have hair to my waist and spent 30 minutes every morning just braiding it for work.
That didn't include washing, conditioning, and brushing.
(warning - old Tzaar photo)
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Same problem with having a big beard. Personally don't see the problem with it, if someone wants to rub my beard/hair that's on them. I definitely wouldn't go up to someone and just rub their head, though. That's strange, especially if I don't know the person really well.
Though I will say I haven't touched black/nappy/curly whatever hair before and now I want to rub your head to see if it feels different.
Actually I take that back. Thinking about it I probably would go up to someone I don't know and touch their head out of curiosity. I'm a pretty inappropriate person and do not think about others very much at all. I'm sorry.
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People touch my straight hair because they don't believe me when i tell them that I don't straighten it so they try to mess it up to prove me wrong.
I don't think this is a problem limited to one hair style. I've seen it happen to just about every type of hair style in person. Well, except afros but that's just because i don't know people with afros that don't basically shave it off.
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Get bald, problem solved. Most people are afraid of baldies and avoid them.
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I fear genes are pushing me in that direction against my will :P
According to my dad he went bald a bit after hitting 30, I'm currently 27 and losing a ton of hair with every shower :(
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Not if you're a fat baldie ... also the risk of getting your noggin slapped for lulz and
that epic slapping sound of slapping someone rises exponentially - BALDIES BEWARE.
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I never felt the need to touch someone else hair. I don't pay too much attention to hair at all really. But I don't mind people touching my long thick.... beard ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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Ugh! These "people" (and I'm being generous calling them that) are parasites! They are literal parasites rubbing their little lice bodies all over my curly hair and now it itches a lot. It's difficult times like these that we learn who our true friends are. True friends like Rubbish Bin Pete, the raccoon I met at the city dump the same day I found that perfectly good bearskin rug that was full of lice and so soft and luxurious that I couldn't help but roll around on it and just wrap myself up in it like a luxurious little burrito. So yeah, you don't have to tell me twice - the hottest deals on the coolest winter fashions this year are found at the city dump™.
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Good to point it. When I was a little younger (until around 17 years), I used to think that people didn't have straight hair because they didn't wash it well. I just didn't understand that there were people with different kinds of hair, since all my family and most of my friends were white with straight/wavy hair. So some day I made a mistake when a friend of mine said "uh, I'd love to have a straight hair like yours! Mine is not". I was about 16. I said "oh, you just have to wash it better". Damn, that was ashaming, but fortunately my friend realized that was not an evil comment, just innocence, and said "it doesn't work like that haha". Even so, it took some time for me to realize that people have different hairs and how ashaming it was not knowing that, just like it took the same time to realize that people had different heights.
Well, I admire people who assume their kind of hair, despite what society defined as beauty pattern. Afro and curly hair are not "bad hair", they are just beautiful in their own way, just like other kinds of hair.
P.S.: I'd like to add that having a long straight hair doesn't give you people the right of touching it, holding it and playing with it, the same way that the fact being a girl doesn't give you the right of hugging me, kissing me (even if it's just my hand or my head) or having any unnecessary physical contact.
P.S.2: Now you talked about hygiene, I've heard that a lot of boys who have long hairs are judged by older people as people who lack hygiene. Sorry, there is no such thing. Boys can have long hair, just like women can have short hair.
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I think it's generally more important to maintain hygiene with longer hair, but it doesn't mean it's unhygienic in itself. Longer hair is more effort; men with long, well-kept hair may even be seen as wealthy because they have the time, resources or lifestyle to sustain it. But if you don't dedicate many resources to caring for it, people will probably judge you for it. Same with beards - you can have lovely well-kept beards or wild, messy ones that aren't cared for.
And on your other point of having the right to touch people, I mostly agree. But touching is good, and sometimes people appreciate being touched. So the more important thing is having the social skill to realise whether you're in a situation where contact is good or bad; comfortable or uncomfortable.
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I don't necessarily have a problem with peeps with straight hair, just needed a clickbait title. But, I'm tired of dealing with people who have no fucking clue about afro hair or how to act around people with it.
So many fuckers just come up to people with curly hair and rub their hands through it because it looks fluffy. I'm a fucking human being and you don't get to touch me just because you want to. Just because my hair is different doesn't mean I don't own it and you can do whatever you want with it. It's a shame the world is infested with people who don't understand that.
Almost as bad are the people who have no fucking clue about nappy hair and think we can just wash it and be done.
I got into a stupid fucking argument that putting stuff in hair isn't a part of basic hygiene, it's styling and is akin to make up.
Not every hair product is a styling product. I mean some of the stuff I use isn't even specifically for hair. But combing, and maintaining moisture is a part of hygine for black hair, or else it gets matted and you can't deal with that without a lot of breakage.
You can't just Afro hair wash it and be done. Hell, even with it properly done many will still consider it bad just 'cause it's nappy.
You don't have this so you don't know what it's like to deal with it, so don't fucking tell me that you know all about it, because the shit is part of my body, I know what I have to do to maintain it. I've had enough people in my life tell me how my hair will always be shit because it's nappy, and now I have to deal with people telling me how my hair works too?
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