¿?
what problems does lack of it cause? If you are not about to regift the game (which is against the rules) there is no difference whether you receive gift or key copy as in the end you still need to add the won game to your account.
Only users who would profit from such a change would be regifters / non-activators - if they enter gift GA and win they know they can keep it for trading or regifting safely without wondering whether the key is valid or not.
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I'm not saying it's a problem to not have those tags, but it'd sure be helpful.
And the regifters/non-activators would be suspended as usual if they kept the gift copy in their inventory, I don't see how this would be helpful for lawbreakers?
If a person wanted to keep the gift copy in their inventory, they'll do that anyway, whether they saw a "gift copy" tag or not.
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can you give an actual example who and why would it be helpful to? Others than ppl who want just gift copies because they intend to flip them via trade or regifting :>
And it would be helpful for "lawbreakers" because they could target gift copy GAs obnly so they don't win keys which are useless to them as they cannot save it for later and be sure it will still be working.
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I think people from Syria can activate gifts but not keys, due to the current restrictions imposed by USA. (But don't take my word for it.)
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Well, I have problem activating lots of keys, that's why I prefer entering gift copy giveaways, so I'm the first example.
But I've seen a number of other users who prefer to only enter gift copy/key giveaways, so this is not a suggestion just helpful for me :v
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I was without my own computer for a while. Gift copies could be activated through the site. Keys at times were awkward to redeem.
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I get that key giveaways are safer, but are you saying that not telling the entrants if it was a gift copy is safer to not get leechers*?
Because that's not how a community supported by mods should work..
Edit: non activators/regifters*
leechers have nothing to do with this :v
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I'm telling exactly that - telling non-activator/regifter that the GA is for gift copy makes it safer for him to join and makes his rulebreaking both safer and easier. Not telling them that makes it harder for them as they may have to risk key situation like one mentioned by ambidot.
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Lawbreakers shouldn't be the upper hand, support/mods will eventually ban/suspend them.
Will these tags help regifters know which giveaways to enter?
Yeah, I guess so, but the tags will also help a lot of people.
However, are tags the reason regifters will be acting like this?
No, because they'll always be regifters whether there were tags or not, and they'd regift a gift copy with/or without a tags implemented.
It's like not buying yourself a new car, because you're afraid someone would steal it..
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I did not say tags will be the reason they act like this. But they will help thwem - and they will be able to steal more this way before getting caught. There is small number of support for massive number of users. Regifters can go months without being caught and steam multiple games in this time already. And you're proposing a change that will let them steal even more.
And no - it's like not letting ppl without a driver's licence drive a car. Sure - no licence required would help some ppl who for example are too young to pass the licence test - but at the same time it also allows a lot of ppl who should not be driving drive.
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It's won't help them steal even more, you're making it a major problem when it's not really that serious..
I'm not proposing a change that'll let them steal even more, this is a change that will help lots of users as you now know.
And problems with lawbreakers should be looked into by support, hundreds of good suggestions would be shut down just because there are lawbreakers and that's illogical.
Support's long time to respond isn't related to tags, a regifter would steal for months before getting caught anyway.
As I said earlier, I get that it's somewhat helpful for lawbreakers but that could be solved by an effective support/mods crew.
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but it will - it will help them targeting only profitable GAs. Let's assume that 50% of GAs on SG are keys and 50% are gifts (thou due to all the bundles it's more like 80% keys 20% gifts). As it is right now - potential non-activator wanting to trade the game away, not knowing if GA is for key or gift has 50% (or 20%) of it being a gift meaning he will be able to steal only 1/2 (1/5) of his intended GAs. Now you give him a way to target ONLY gift GAs - thus he will be able to steal 100% of his wins. If per 10 wins he was able to steal 5 (2) games now he will be able to steal and trade away all 10 of them.
And as much as I feel sorry for your situation - I guess there are much less (and certainly not lots as you suggest) users who have key activation problems (on whole SG there are only 58 registered Syrian users, most of them inactive as goes for all userbase - source ) than there are regifters. So to ease the situation of very few individuals we also help a massive number of non-activators - and yeah, it should be the support problem - but unless there is enough support and they have right tools to enforce the rules, they cannot deal with regifter problem so far. So any propositions of changes that could make the problem even worse are pointless until support is able to deal with what we already have.
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You're only re-explaining a problem that I already told you that I understood, regifters would target giveaways which have gift tags, yes.
Now, after tags are implemented, will a regifter win 100% of their entered giveaways and steal them all?
No, it's just a tag, it won't increase a regifter's chances of winning.
I never said do this for me or for Syrian users, I've had this idea since a while but I haven't said anything till I found out that some users who aren't from Syria will appreciate a similar tag system.
Regifting is a problem that needs solving on its own.
But if the tags were found to actually increase regifting incidents, then an optional tag system would be more suitable, where you can if you wanted to add a tag to your giveaway indicating how you'll be delivering the game.
And people who are afraid of the possibility of something going wrong, would choose to not put a tag.
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I won't change their chance of winning but it will change % of games they are able to regift - from 20% to 100% ;p
And well - beside Syrians who got key activation problems due to US trade ban and Germans who are affected with only a few games and they already are good dealing with it on their own - noone else is profiting with this system. And yes - again - I agree some fair users would profit from tag system - but much more unfair would as well.
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We don't exactly know how many people will benefit from this, but it's a good change.
I agree some fair users would profit from tag system
That's why I said:
But if the tags were found to actually increase regifting incidents, then an optional tag system would be more suitable, where you can if you wanted to add a tag to your giveaway indicating how you'll be delivering the game.
And people who are afraid of the possibility of something going wrong, would choose to not put a tag.
That way, it'll be each user's own choice when choosing to put a tag or not, so users won't feel forced to add a tag to their giveaway.
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that's not the matter whether users will be able to choose or not to use tag. What matters is that if they choose to do so it will be beneficial to rulebreakers. So again - as long as the rulebreakers problem is not solved it'ds not a good change. If we had no problem with regifters/retraders then sure, why not, but until then I will remain being against it.
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Yeah, but you don't know if users want these tags or not, an optional tags system will let them decide for their own.
I understand where you are coming from, and I wasn't trying to convince you into liking this as much as I wanted to explain my point of view and have a constructive discussion.
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fair enough - and all I wanted to do was why it's not a good idea CURRENTLY. If we had no regifter/retrader problem, or it would be small one I'd be fully behind any change that can help even smallest portion of userbase. But as it is now I believe that such a change while helping a few users would also help many more unfair ones.
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Yeah, but that's your opinion and you don't know if some user wanted to actually take the risk.
Some users might even want to try it every once in a while, and that's what an optional setting for tags would allow.
Anyway, this whole discussion is meaningless unless the admin actually considered any of the suggestions at some point in the future :v
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yeah - but if some users would will to "take the risk" and make regifters profitable should we really enforce it because "it's their choice to make regifting better"? No - because even now - some "users", especially "devs" making mass GAs don't mind ppl multi winning and regifting - should this mean that regifting should be ok? No.
And inb4 you post user's choice argument - some users may think that because Syrian users cannot activate keys they should be all banned from SG - would you think user choice is ok then? Considering vast minority of Syrian users it would pass without a problem...
See? That's why "user's choice" should not be an argument.
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How is it called "enforcing" when you are letting the user decide?
I didn't get the second part, but I'm sure that I've never said "regifting is okay".
I don't get why you're still arguing about this, but okay:
The only people who are able to ban/suspend people are admin/support/mods, if they decided to make a poll asking "Should the Syrian users be banned?" and that poll's result was positive then yeah I guess they'd ban Syrian users, but I still don't get why "user choice" is not an argument?
Why are you even trying to invalidate my arguments? this isn't a fight, this is a discussion about a suggestion that I made and apparently things are starting to go wrong.
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The onlyb place I mentined enforcing was support enforcing SG rules.
Nowhere did I say you said regifting is okay.
and I don't get why you're arguying it either, but okay:
unless there are ebough of support members and enough of enforcement rules to get rid of rulebreakers putting any serious (oro-tip - banning all Syrians was not serious) changes that in current SG enviroment can bring more damage is a no-no. And "user choice" should not be an argument, because "users" can "choose" against the site rules, yet it shouldn't mean rules should be changed.
And no - yes, you just posted an suggestion and I just posted why I believe it's wrong providing argument. Why should I not invalidate your arguments when I believe they're wrong?
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You mentioned "enforcing" here:
yeah - but if some users would will to "take the risk" and make regifters profitable should we really enforce it because "it's their choice to make regifting better"?
Explain that because it's confusing if "it" stands for "SG rules".
I'm not arguing, I'm only answering you and defending what I think is a good suggestion, and you thinking that it's not, is your own opinion which I respect while sticking to my own suggestion and opinion.
And "user choice" should not be an argument, because "users" can "choose" against the site rules, yet it shouldn't mean rules should be changed.
There isn't one word in the rules of SG that remotely says "putting tags on giveaways is against the rules" let alone "giving users the option to put such tag, not forcing it"
I think this discussion is going nowhere, although I do appreciate your opinion and the concerns which you talked about earlier, but now you only want to prove that you're the only one who is right, this isn't a discussion anymore.
Giving people the option is always the right thing -> my opinion, you disagree?
cool, then:
Not giving people the option is always the right thing -> your opinion.
End of meaningless arguing.
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and where did I say that there's anything in SG rules about "putting tags on giveaways is against the rules" let alone "giving users the option to put such tag, not forcing it"? Nowhere. I just made a simple analogy - there are a lot of things that are not in SG rules - does it mean users should have free choice about them simply because of that? Let me repeat myself - there is nothing in SG rules about banning Syrian users - so according whole userbase should be able to choose (by poll maybe?) if we should ban all Syrian users? ;p I'm ofc joking - but it's to show that something not being in rules doesn't automatically make it free-reign teritory.
Oh and also nice manipulation here: Not giving people the option is always the right thing -> your opinion. - I only said that it's not right thing in *THIS PARTICULAR CASE** you proposed, but whatever, let manipulate other person words to make him look like some totalitarian dictator that is absolutely agains any choice by any user.
The moment you started lacking counterarguments you first manipulated my words then being the freaking voice of the people you rise above it all and End of meaningless arguing.. Yeah better end the meaningless manipulation before you start comparing yourself to Gandhi or Martin Luther King Jr ;)
EOT for me as well.
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I'm not suggesting to add a rule/law though, this is only a giveaway setting, so that whole first argument of yours is invalid.
I didn't manipulate anybody's words, you kept saying "user choice is not an argument because you can't give users the choice (why?) because they might choose something against the rules" So, yeah, I didn't manipulate anything there.
I don't recall me comparing myself to any of those people, and I've calmly responded to your mostly aggressive arguments about how bad of an idea this is.
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What happens if the creator marks it as a gift but later delivers a key? (Or the other way around.) Currently there are no rules regarding this and people quite often mark the giveaway as gift and add the key only before sending.
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Not necessary. Unless you want to introduce it as another tag, not just show what the user chose when creating the giveaway. When you create a giveaway and choose "key", you are forced to add a key. If, for some reason, you don't have it aviable at that moment, you have to choose "gift" and add it when it ends. Also, something might happen (example: gift turns out to be region locked) and the creator has to get another copy, which might or might not be a gift.
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Yeah, I meant that if a user put a "key" tag on their giveaway and then delivered a gift copy, they'll probably be messing around.
Showing what the user picked is easier than adding new tags, but it won't be helpful if users picked gift and then added keys later, that's why adding a tag system is probably better or just fixing and merging the tags with the already implemented settings.
I know that users choose "gift" option to add the keys later that's even written under that option but as I said earlier, it's just a way to help organize and sort out giveaways for users who might care if it was a gift copy/key.
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it'd still help some users who might have problem with activating keys or the ones who only want to enter gift copy giveaways/key giveaways.
I think it wouldn't make any difference. And why would anyone only want to enter gift copy giveaway? (I guess only re-gifters...)
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As somebody mentioned earlier, for example Stick of Truth activation in german is only possible if it's a key, I guess. Or a gift, I don't remember, but I've seen sad germans under giveaways because the creator said it wasn't the activable type. So not in the general case, but sometimes it can actually mean a difference.
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There should be a "don't care" option in a poll. For now, selecting key/gift means nothing. You can make a gift giveaway and give key instead, or vice versa. So, this indicating would not have sense either.
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I wasn't aware of all the limitations with countries and some gifts/keys. I'll start putting "Gift" or "Key" in the description of my giveaways.
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I made it pretty easy, just copy and paste one of these two:
☐ Gift ☑ Key
☑ Gift ☐ Key
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The benefits do not outweigh all the problems raised. The community has too much of a problem with unethical behavior as it is.
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The benefits being helping people not entering giveaways for games they can't activate and therefore less re-roll incidents --> support spends time on more serious problems other than re-rolling giveaways.
The problems raised are the possibility of someone misusing this to know which giveaway to enter and which to pass, and then the possibility of them actually winning that giveaway to steal the gift copy.
So, no, I think it's the other way around.
They're minor problems compared with the benefits
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That assumes a lot of people can't activate keys, resulting in the need for re-rolls. Prior to this thread, I haven't heard of a single case where this has happened. As such, I assume those are isolated incidents that are few in number, whereas what you're suggesting opens up the door for systemic problems.
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Okay, I can give you that, problems with keys are only common between people from specific regions and they're a minority.
Still, users who aren't from those regions and would benefit from this, spoke up and explained why this is helpful for them.
Problems though, as I said in my first response have a possibility of happening, because a regifter won't just win all gift copies after such setting is implemented just like I said above in my discussion with zelghadis
In the end, all of this arguing is worth nothing unless site's managers actually looked into it.
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Like chairmankao, I've not seen a single instance of not being able to activate a key on Steam (outside of the normal things, like Duplicate or Invalid Keys) on these forums ... and I am on these forums a lot.
You'd think if it was such a problem, especially here at SG, there would be a thread every now and then addressing it. Maybe you could find an example, otherwise I see zero benefits to your suggestion, and only drawbacks. This site already has a lot of regifters, and there are dozens of posts I've seen about that issue. Do we really need dozens more?
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In many cases the user doesn't write anything, and even though it's not much of a problem for most users whether it was a key or a gift copy, it'd still help some users who might have problem with activating keys or the ones who only want to enter gift copy giveaways/key giveaways.
-Examples of why this would be helpful for users:
Pinacho
Saotoshi
flagrantnutwaffle
eeev
-Examples of how this would be helpful for lawbreakers:
zelghadis
-User Idiosyncratic suggested adding tags to each giveaway's description, like this:
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