Ask the user to send you a ROW copy of the gift if not don’t mark it as Received
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Tell creator to send you a new key. Or if you accept reroll or have it deleted.
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yes, if creator can't deliver, it would be a nice option in this case... just hoping next winner is not restricted for creator gifts...
well i think this clears it up: (talgaby posted) https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/PiIiCuF
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If the user can't give you a proper copy you can mark it not received and move on.
If you want to be nice, give him back the gift and agree to re-roll or delete the giveaway. It's one less win but these things can happen and have happened to me before :)
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The creator seems to be Chinese or from SEA. He will never be able to send the game to you through Steam.
Since it is not sold at any other store and hasn't been in a bundle for a good while, he cannot really do much now beyond paying someone to buy the game for you or ask for your permission to delete the giveaway.
Also, yes, decline that gift. It would be auto-declined in a week anyway though.
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I replied further down but didn't realise you wouldn't see it unless I hit reply.
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Would they have to buy a new copy to send a ROW version? Because if so, I don't want them to spend any money and I am fine with not receiving it. The creator just said this to me on Steam:
"I am Taiwanese so English may be terrible
OK, I know I will handle it
Because of the original key vendor problems
I will give you a correct set of keys within a day
Sorry for the inconvenience caused"
So I will wait for now, and maybe ask about the ROW copy if they don't have to spend any money.
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Did they give you oldstyle gift storable in the inventory? Because, to my knowledge, nowadays they couldn't send you anything not claimable by receiver straight from store.
Anyway, refuse the gift. You can either agree to delete this giveaway, or wait for another offering by the GA creator (but this may not be friendly if they will have to buy something full-price, in fact it is pretty terrible move with regard to someone who planned to share a key for free and made a mistake; this should be forgiven)
You can make a screenshot saying that gift is not able to be claimed in another situations like these.
If you want you can mention, in case of deletion of the GA, that they could offer you anything else which you want to play; if they can not, it's fine. People have different resources.
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I replied further down but didn't realise you wouldn't see it unless I hit reply.
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@talgaby I was writing when you commented ^^
Thanks for the advice, I will decline the gift. I will wait a while and if nothing comes of it I will ask if they want to delete.
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You guys are fast!
@Lilith812
The gift didn't appear in my inventory, just a notification for a "pending gift" and when I click I can accept or decline. After pressing accept and getting the restricted message, the notification remains and I can try again (not that this would change anything).
I agree, I wouldn't want someone to pay for a new one. I am ok with not receiving anything, I won't ask for anything else from them. ^^
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Leave a message explaining your problem in the giveaway thread, decline the steam gift and when the giveaway creator doesn't respond or doesn't solve this problem, mark not received after 7 days. ^^
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Thank you, but the GA creator did send me the game, I just can't redeem it. It would seem their mistake is not including the region lock in the original listing, I don't want to penalise them by marking "not received" when they did try. Marking as "received" doesn't seem quite right either but I'll probably do that since they did contact me and are trying to fix it.
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Don't mark it as received unless you've gotten a copy you can activate on your account. Received indicates you activated the game on your account, and since you didn't and don't have it on your account, that will lead to issues for you down the road (including the possibility of a suspension).
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If it was a region locked game then the giveaway creator should have made a giveaway with the correct region locks during giveaway creation. In any case when you make a giveaway on SG you have to deliver, it's as simple as that.
You didn't get a working gift so you have the clear option to mark not received after 7 days when he or she doesn't deliver a working key or gift. When you don't get a working key or gift and you don't mark not received after 7 days, your SG account will be flagged with a non activated gift what is a punishable SG offense and you would also not be able to enter SGTools giveaways with all gifts must be activated as requirement.
Obviously you can also agree to a giveaway re-roll but that will just displace the problem to other (re-roll) winners because this is a non advertised region locked gift so this could take multiple support tickets and re-rolls before it get's solved, eventually.
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Thank you also for the warning! I will wait and if they can't give me a key, I will show them this page and ask that they include the region lock in their future giveaways. Is there anything else I should do? Should I put in a ticket or is that not necessary?
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It's not necessary as I see in the below comments it will get solved for sure but still I would leave a message in the giveaway thread clearly explaining the problem. Possibly it's a giveaway creator that doesn't know it's a region locked key but it could also be a really smart one thinking that all keys and gifts can activate everywhere in the world.
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If it was a region locked game then the giveaway creator should have made a giveaway with the correct region locks during giveaway creation. In any case when you make a giveaway on SG you have to deliver, it's as simple as that.
The OP states that the GA creator provided a key for a free game, and then, when it didn't work, tried to pay full price for it and deliver a copy through the steam store. There's no indication the GA creator acted with anything but good intentions, and we can't fault them for any ignorance they may have toward more unusual or nuanced elements of how SG or Steam functions. All the more so given that the GA creator indicated lacking firm English fluency.
As far as "have to deliver", there's no punishment for failure to deliver, assuming it's not part of a pattern of non-deliverances or done for exploitative reasons. In other words, staff tends to give you a pass for the rare, out-of-your-control issue (though you do get that Not Received on your record until you can provide the game). Specifically, as far as Steam region restriction policies, it's my understanding staff is currently being lenient toward those, especially as the change is still a bit on the recent side. Moreover, the GA creator doesn't have to deliver if the winner decides they don't, and agrees to a deletion [or reroll, but that's really not appropriate for an invalid or an improperly listed & region-restricted key].
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when you make a giveaway on SG you have to deliver
Actually I used\got this line straight from a SG support member, while talking about a winner of mine who had me blacklisted
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That's because you're not allowed to choose to not deliver (unless rule-breaking is involved, in which case there's a few varying exceptions to it). I've had several confirmations from several different staff members over the years, including some rather in-depth clarifications of the considerations involved. In short, exploitative behavior- by refusing to provide a game due to an exploitative reason (such as personal prejudice) or by not delivering on an exploitative amount of giveaways- is the core of what staff is concerned about, not honest mistakes or special circumstances.
Likewise, staff has repeatedly clarified that if winner and ga creator agree, a giveaway can be deleted at any time; further, Khalaq explicitly stated that they were aiming for leniency in relation to the specific matter of Steam gifting restrictions, given how problematic and out-of-people's-hands that matter was.
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One thing for sure is that we can't see the communication and giveaway thread so there's a lot of assumptions going about this particular case. But in general, who can objectively decide when their are honest mistakes or special circumstances in play and that it's not a case of the giveaway creator who is playing the winner or is trying to get a "better winner" in his or her eyes?
Also to complement what you said about giveaway deletion: deletion is possible but not mandatory; if the winner doesn't want giveaway deletion, it can't happen unless support doesn't check the giveaway thread for a message of the winner that it's OK to delete.
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Wow, did they really try to pay for a new game? I thought they must have had it in their inventory already. Please excuse my ignorance, I don't have much experience either on here or with gifting through Steam directly.
A couple of lovely people on here have offered me a key now though, and since the GA creator is trying, if they can't get a key I should be able to accept one from someone here and then mark as received, even if it is in a round-about way. :)
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I admit, I made an assumption there based off your narrative- however, region restriction due to the new gifting policy is more likely than them having already had a region-restricted gift copy on top of a key, especially if they switched over to the gift only after trying to provide the key. Currently, it's impossible to put gifts into inventory anymore, meaning stored gifts are starting to be a rare thing; Add in that The Deer was free-spammed, and someone having at any point bothered buying a gift copy to store away is a rather unlikely scenario.
I've had, and offered, deletions where honest mistakes were made, and the appreciation and mutual benefit of such interactions is worth far more than whatever game is involved (and certainly far more than this specific one). This whole "the GA creator owes me a game regardless of their circumstances" bit is just a disturbingly negative and entitled mindset. Don't get me wrong- if they're acting in an exploitative manner, and you're aware of that, you can use the rule to strong-arm them into better conduct (though, honestly, staff should be monitoring their deletions anyway; on top of that, add in that it'd be a weird thing for someone to willingly try and get deletions, and there's unlikely to ever be a reason to strong-arm them in such a manner)- but past that, the rule should be considered to be in place to avoid abusive behaviors, not to engage in entitlement at the detriment of the GA creator.
Just because you can do something, doesn't mean it's something you need to, or should do.
What you feel you're owed is, of course, up to you- but that's where putting yourself in the other person's shoes comes into consideration. At the very least, despite the language barrier, it's something worth communicating respectfully on, without trying to force any obligations.
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You've got me all wrong - really. I've never been an entitled person and I don't expect anything (see my other reply to you, these are getting confusing now!)
I am only saying I will wait because I didn't want to take a key from someone else.
Edit: also, I want the best outcome for the GA creator, which is why I made this post in the first place.
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The topic I was attempting to address here was the fact that other commenters were telling you to push the matter, and not mentioning the fact that you can simply let the matter drop via agreeing to a deletion, and not any assumed traits of your character. I said it below but, again, I apologize for any misinterpretable elements in how I presented my points.
also, I want the best outcome for the GA creator, which is why I made this post in the first place.
I imagine a deletion will be the most beneficial outcome to them, given what can be intuited from the elements you've presented. Given that you'll be able to get the key easily from someone else, everyone should be able to end up leaving the matter in a stress-free way. Still, they said they'd replace the key within a day; so check to make sure they're not going out of their way to do such and, if not- well, it'll resolve on its own, then. :)
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Ok, I will tell them via Steam (they are online now) that they shouldn't get a key (I honestly thought they wouldn't have to spend any money). Is deletion really the best way? Because I won't accept a key from someone else if so. If I were to accept a key from someone else, I would mark as received on the giveaway, wouldn't that be better?
(Sorry you will have to bear with me, not only am I new to all this but I have chronic kidney disease (and the fatigue&nausea that comes with it) and I'm struggling to keep up at the moment - I'll reply to your longer comment when I'm feeling up to it because it's hard to read and reply to that much right now).
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Oddly, I write so extensively because my own chronic health issues make it hard to focus my thoughts to allow for a more concise presentation. Certainly, you don't have to apologize for any difficulties with making it through it all.
The "best way" is something personal to your considerations and the specific circumstances of that giveaway. Deletion is usually just the easiest option [and for the more opportunistic, demanding the GA creator bribe them with a different game ends up being part of that process- though many GA creators are willing to do such on their own for more pleasant winners, making the matter one of strange extremes].
It's just, as a previously free game, there's no real benefit to them completing that giveaway (as games which have previously been given away in free promotions no longer provide any site gains), meaning you're doing them no favors by encouraging them to do so. If it's not a stress for them to complete it, that's one thing, but if there is, it's up to you to decide if that's something worth pressuring them on, for a game so easily obtained elsewhere.
Assuming I'm not overlooking anything, the sum of your options are:
1. Have the giveaway creator get you a key in a way that's convenient for them
2. Have the giveaway creator get you a key in a way that's inconvenient for them
3. Agree to a deletion, but request a game as a requirement of providing that deletion.
4. Agree to a deletion, no-strings-attached, and get the game from someone else.
5. Agree to a deletion, no-strings-attached, and try winning or obtaining the game elsewhere.
Personally, I find two of those options deeply distasteful. As to what's best for you, and what works for the giveaway creator, that's something for you to determine.
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I've already just spoken to them, told them not to get a key from anywhere. I said I could either take a key I was offered from someone and mark their giveaway as received, or they could choose to delete the giveaway, up to them. They chose to delete and then said they could give me something else - which I turned down. I won't accept a key anyone else has offered for The Deer since the creator chose to delete.
Right, I really have to go now, I'm exhausted.
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Glad you were able to work it out in a way that was satisfactory to you.
:hug: Sleep well. :)
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Thank you :)
It was too early for me to sleep but I had to take a break from this thread and my computer - I got to the point I could barely think straight and nothing was making sense ("brain fog", if you've heard of that, is common with chronic fatigue). I know what you mean about trying to be concise, I have to spend a fair bit of time (and mental energy) not to ramble myself, and replying to so many posts wiped me out a lot faster than normal yesterday and I was pretty useless the rest of the day.
What are your health issues? Do they affect your gaming? You absolutely don't have to answer that, I was feeling rather reticent before mentioning my own in such a public forum, but in the end felt it necessary to explain why I was abruptly leaving.
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Umm, if you won http://store.steampowered.com/app/400240/The_Deer/ I have a bunch of extra keys for it. Maybe I could give one to the giveaway creator, and they could give it to you?
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That's unnecessarily complex- you can just give it to the winner directly. All SG cares about is if they get the game, not the "how".
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I dunno... I think if a person creates a giveaway, they should deliver the game. And if it's a hassle, maybe they will remember to be more careful with the next giveaway... :)
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Well, I was actually thinking of the hassle it would create for you- but by all means, if that's what you want to do. :P
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That's so right and one of the ground rules of SG: if you make a giveaway, you have to deliver.
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Thank you, Fiftykyu. Thanks to the screwed up Steam gifting rules, sometimes a creator needs help delivering on his/her promise. It was nice of you to offer. )
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Wow, people on here are so nice! Someone else also offered me a key, but I said I'd wait because the GA creator said they are trying to fix it. If they can't fix it and the key someone else offered doesn't work, that would be a really nice solution for me and the GA creator, thank you! I'll get back to you when the 7 days is up or if the GA creator gives me a key. :)
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but I said I'd wait because the GA creator said they are trying to fix it.
It's a game that has been given away for free quite a few times. At the moment, it sounds like the GA creator is trying to purchase it at full price, to make up for the matter. Given that free games give 0 CV and no increase to sent ratio, there's no benefit to them actually trying to fulfill the obligations of the listing. As such, "waiting to let them fix it" may actually be a rather negative approach to the matter.
If you actually want to resolve things in a "nice" fashion, it'd be better to accept one of the freely offered keys and let the GA creator off the hook- all you have to do is post in the giveaway a comment reading "As the key is invalid, I agree to a deletion" and the GA creator can put in a deletion ticket and link to that comment, and staff will delete it for them.
Insisting a GA creator provide you a key when an honest mistake occurs is crass enough, but when you're doing it for a free game that you know for sure you can get without hassle elsewhere, that moves straight into outright distasteful.
Not that I'm saying you're intentionally being negative about the matter! Rather, both you and the GA creator seem quite new to SG and, in his case, perhaps gifting in general. I'm just saying that you don't have to force a GA creator to give a game (a giveaway can be deleted at any time, so long as both winner and creator agree to it), especially when it's clear the GA creator didn't intend exploitation and that they've put in an effort to try and remedy the matter. And, y'know- it feels especially unnecessary when the game itself is barely worth putting up for giveaway, given its ease of acquisition elsewhere.
Just think what you'd want done if you were the creator, yea? :)
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Oops, I replied to your comment above before seeing this one.
I only said I would wait for them to fix it because that's what they told me (I put their message in an earlier post), I thought they were sorting it out with whoever they got the key from ("original vendor"). In no way am I insisting on or forcing anything, in fact I've said several times I'm happy to not receive anything.
"when you're doing it for a free game that you know for sure you can get without hassle elsewhere" I don't know for sure, I'm not even sure what you mean by this.
And I agree, like I said in my other reply I should accept a key here and mark as received. If you look through my other posts, I was going to mark as received before I was ever offered a key by someone else, just because the GA creator tried - until someone warned me this could get me suspended.
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I only said I would wait for them to fix it because that's what they told me (I put their message in an earlier post), I thought they were sorting it out with whoever they got the key from ("original vendor"). In no way am I insisting on or forcing anything, in fact I've said several times I'm happy to not receive anything.
My sentiments and statements toward entitlement and so forth were based more toward the comments others were leaving for you, indicating you should push the matter, not toward any assumptions on your intentions. I apologize if any misinterpretations occurred.
As far as the rest: Well, just note that if they got the key free, then they won't be able to get a replacement- considering which game it isme [and the fact that the key is invalid, which many free promo keys seem to be], the easy assumption is that such is the circumstance they're working off of.
Likewise, if they're trying to gift you a copy of the game as their first attempt to fix the matter, then it seems more likely that they're looking for another place to buy the key, rather than attempting to replace it through a retailer or bundler. In the end, it's really best to confirm the circumstances with the GA creator, to make sure you're both on the same page- and, of course, if it is something they feel they can get a replacement on, then that's certainly the most "fair" outcome. (Though, given how easily I'd give away a Deer key [and have, in the past], I don't think it likely that anyone offering you one would in any way mind going through with giving it to you.)
"when you're doing it for a free game that you know for sure you can get without hassle elsewhere" I don't know for sure, I'm not even sure what you mean by this.
The Deer has been given away and bundled so many times, that there are several people with spare free copies on hand; likewise, given that fact, you should be able to get it in trade (or through certain sites- DIG Marketplace, for example, offers it for 4 cents) for nearly nothing- specifically, in this case, you've already had people offering you it with no-strings-attached, meaning you already know for a fact you can get it without any meaningful effort or cost.
As such, if it ends up being a hassle for the GA creator to provide the key, it's really not something worth pushing them on [though, often, introducing them to sites like DIG's marketplace can be enough to let them get the key for you, as a consideration].
If you look through my other posts, I was going to mark as received before I was ever offered a key by someone else, just because the GA creator tried - until someone warned me this could get me suspended.
Correct. They have to provide you exactly the game listed, or you need to leave the giveaway unmarked [as a polite gesture, to indicate you trust they'll fix it] or mark it as Not Received. Wherever possible, leave comments in the giveaway indicating how the giveaway interaction is progressing, so that staff can easily check the comments for the giveaway to update themselves if they end up needing to get involved. In cases where the giveaway shares the name with another game [and the GA creator confused the listings] or the giveaway creator put up the wrong version of the game, you can usually agree to have the GA creator update the listing to the correct game. As you're not allowed to change the listing to any other game than those covered by those two considerations, agreeing to a deletion is usually the only available outcome in situations where the GA creator cannot provide the listed game.
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Hi, I'm a bit more awake today, all that reading sapped me yesterday! Thanks for clearing up some things. Maybe it's my lack of experience, but I never thought for a second the GA creator would have to pay or even really go out of their way to get another key. I assumed they must have had back-ups, or since they mentioned "original vendor" I thought they would have just been sending an email to the customer support of whatever vendor to get a working key. So that was my thought process, and I didn't want to take a key from someone else when the GA creator could (in my mind) get a replacement key for free and very little hassle. I can see now how some of my posts could be misconstrued since I've found out it's not uncommon for other people to expect the GA creator to provide a key by any means necessary. My mind didn't even go there though, so I was pretty shocked to see words like "crass" and "distasteful" in your reply to me - though now I realise you were referring to the concept rather than my intentions specifically. So I'm glad that's cleared up. :)
I'd never heard of the DIG website (until today - somebody else mentioned it in this thread) so that's something interesting to keep in mind. I still wouldn't expect someone to pay for a new key though!
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Could not agree more. If the creator is making a real effort to provide you with a working key, they should be given the benefit of the doubt. :)
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Hello, not trying to argue here, just some random things...
I think fulfilling our obligations is kinda important, even self-imposed dumb ones like creating giveaways on Steamgifts. :) Or should I always calculate the benefit or profitz before deciding to do what I said I would do? :)
When in the past I created giveaways using bundle leftovers, but due to an honest mistake one key was already used, I bought it from the Steam store and felt dumb. :( And tried to be more careful with my bundle keys for the next time... :)
Nowadays, when I make a region-free giveaway, but due to Steam's new +10% region nonsense I can't gift some of the games, I send the winners enough wallet codes to buy the games themselves, and feel dumb. :( By the way, sending someone $20 to buy a $2 game really feels dumb. :)
I think if a person says they will give Game X, then unless it's impossible (game suddenly can't be purchased anywhere, or a dmca claim invalidated all keys, that sort of thing), somehow or other they should deliver Game X to the winner. And I don't think it's unreasonable for a person who wins a giveaway to expect they will receive the game they won.
I don't think a person should delete a giveaway when they can't deliver - if they aren't sure about the key, or they have no "plan B" if somehow the key doesn't work, they should never have created that giveaway.
But anyway, maybe people feel differently about that sort of thing - I suspect Steamgifts isn't very important for most members, so if a giveaway doesn't work out, eh, no big deal. :)
Now, I had no idea The Deer was one of those free games, that makes things a bit messy... :( My extra ones are from dailyindiegame, so I can do puzzles with "leftover bundle keys" like here currently. :) I'm not a fan of allowing giveaways for free stuff, but that ship has sailed... Oh well. :)
p.s. I'm always wondering why Skeletor is playing basketball - don't remember that episode... :)
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Yeah, there are a lot of nice people around here, but (don't tell anyone!) actually I'm a big jerk who just pretends to be nice once in a while to fool people...
I hope everything works out with your "The Deer" game, looks like a ridiculous amount of words got typed at you over this thing... Sorry... :)
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Aww, no I'm sure you're the sweetest Totoro in real life :P
Yeah there's a lot of messages I wasn't expecting! And you have nothing to apologise for, you've been lovely, thank you <3
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looks like a ridiculous Sooth got at you over this thing.
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I think that cat jpg would melt the hardest of hearts :-)
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I am dying reading this thread over a key that's $0.04 on DIG.
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Hey, just wanted to update you. I spoke to the creator and told them I could accept a key from someone here and mark their giveaway as received, or I could agree to a deletion. They chose deletion so I am honouring that and therefore I won't accept a key from anyone else.
Also, I found out about that DIG site where I can buy it myself for next to nothing so I will do that. :)
Thanks again for being so kind <3
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Thank you for letting us know how everything went, and I hope the next game you win doesn't put you through this much work... :)
Oh, wow, looks like you've already won some good games here! Sleeping Dogs is a lot of fun if you like that sort of game, and Offworld Trading Company is probably fun except I gave up in the tutorial - my brain wasn't ready for that much thinking, and then I forgot about it... :(
That DIG site is a popular place to buy a lot of cheap games, but... Well, most of the games are only good for adding +1 to your Steam library, and not for actual playing. :) If that makes any sense... :)
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Yeah I've been really lucky! I was looking forward to playing Sleeping Dogs for ages, fist pumped the air when I saw I won :D I love GTA so I knew it would be good.
Then... the next day I saw it was included in the Humble Monthly (the only one I've ever bought, forgot to check when the rest of the games were released) and could not believe it. I basically already owned it when I entered the giveaway and had no idea, felt really guilty. The GA creator had already said on the giveaway he wants to play it but he couldn't use it because it's region locked where he lives in Germany,. So then I was determined to find a way around it. I googled around and found a guide he could use to at least activate on Steam and apparently it unlocks and becomes playable after 3 months. So I gave him my key and it activated! Hopefully it will unlock when the 3 months is up.
Ha, I did the exact same thing with Offworld Trading Company. It looks good though, it had been on my wishlist a while so I'll get into it at some point. I do love a good micromanagement game.
I registered with DIG before but got a bit spooked when it came to buy points. The site itself isn't secure, the part where you pay is but it wants your full address, phone number etc and I thought it was a bit much. I'll probably go back to it but I don't understand why it wants so much personal info, I'd be paying with Paypal and that's enough for most sites.
Oh and any clue for the tomatoes? :P Edit: wait, just saw your other post about the tomatoes ^^
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Oh, that's interesting! Hope everything works out with his game, eventually...
Hmm, I believe you really don't want to use a VPN to get around any Steam store restrictions, but I'm sure you can find plenty of people who will say it's perfectly ok to do X, just not Y or Z. I have no desire to find out... :)
Yeah, the FastSpring thing that wants your address and phone number is a recent change on DIG - used to be you could just give them money directly via Paypal. I don't know anything about their business, but I assume they have a good reason for making it more difficult to give them my money... Maybe I should thank them, though... :)
Hmm, don't think I can give any tomato clues, sorry... :) But you're not missing much... :)
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I'm not sure if the workaround used a VPN or not, the guide I found for him was in German so I didn't understand a word. Some pages I'd read initially did mention VPNs though so it's very possible the German one did too. I told him he can just give away the key if he wanted, I do hope it will be ok... :/
Yeah the thing with DIG wanting more details feels a bit of a double-edged sword. I hope they never get hacked! It's happened to me a few times apparently according to haveibeenpwned... I really need a proper password manager.
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I think i have a spare copy of the deer if you cant work it out add me and i can give it to you.
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Thank you so much, but two other people have already offered! So no need <3
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Please let the GA creator know that the game can be purchased on the DailyIndieGame site for 4 cents. If he doesn't have an account, I'd be happy to purchase it for him and send him the key - no charge.
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This, and it is also available at tremorgames for 79 points.
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Wow another super nice person... you're the fourth person to offer a key! Thanks so much, but I already spoke to the GA creator and told them I could accept a key from someone here and mark their giveaway as received, or I could agree to a deletion. They chose deletion so I am honouring that and therefore I won't accept a key from anyone else.
And I had absolutely no clue about the existence of that site or that you could get the game so cheap, so I'll just buy it myself. :)
Thanks again for the offer, so kind <3
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I won "The Deer" and the giveaway creator initially gave me a duplicate key. They said they made a mistake and then sent me the game as a gift via Steam, however Steam won't let me add it to my library - "This item cannot be added to your library because it is restricted from your country". Should I now decline the gift? How else should I handle it?
Thank you for any advice.
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