Because everybody is equal.
Just some people are more equal than others :3.
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All men ... are NOT created equal!. Some are born swifter of foot, some with greater beauty, some are born into poverty and others born sick and feeble. Both in birth and upbringing, in sheer scope of ability every human is inherently different; Yes that is why people discriminate against one another, which is why there is struggle, competition and the unfaltering march of progress.
All Hail Big Archi!
Touhou Prevails!
All is well, 2+2= :3
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Delete the name before you get in trouble for calling out. Then you can keep the thread.
edit: just realized you said a game name and not person name, but pretty sure that is still calling out.
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I'm stealing that!
Equality is only just when applied to the whole picture, because everyone excels at something while at the same time needing a little boost somewhere else.
/offtopic
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I would say the image on the right is equality because everyone has an equal view of the game.
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What is given to each boy in the image is not equal. What was achieved was fair (not equal). Equality doesn't apply to their view of the game. (They are each watching from a different location.)
Things get screwed up when people try to treat everyone "equally." Not only is it not possible, it's not just. Different people have different needs, and those needs should be addressed fairly.
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Actually equality means giving everyone the same chance or shot at with the same conditions.
It's just that most people think that they deserve something cause they are a lil butterfly.
True equality means that I'll give you and everyone else who signs up for a task the exact same conditions and resources without trying to help out some who can't walk just because they can't walk.
I know it sounds ugly but equality is just that, it'll give everyone the same conditions as to the first person.
What you do with the given chance is up to you tho, there are no guarantees that you'll succeed :D :D :D
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That's the point. Everyone is different. Treating everyone exactly the same is injustice. While there are some things common to all people (e.g. the right to life), individual circumstances vary, so the needs of each individual varies. Fairness and justice involve dealing with the individual in a manner which is appropriate to his or her circumstances.
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Actually equality means giving everyone the same chance or shot at with the same conditions.
That depends on the situation. I would agree with that statement if it applied to a job that has certain requirements. If the job were replacing light bulbs on top of radio towers, then you wouldn't hire a someone without arms just to give them an equal shot.
When it comes to education, then I disagree. Everyone should be given the education they need to have an equal shot in the real world. The education system here in the US is a perfect example. Teachers used to be allowed to teach students how to learn. Not everyone learns the same way. Now they started giving national standardized tests and things have gone to shit. Now instead of teaching students how to learn, teachers can only teach them how to take tests.
The image in TheLuckyShamrock's post is a perfect example of that.
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I love these kind of discussions :D
While I do agree with you on most points the big problem is when you start taking in everyones circumstances into consideration you'll start justifying everything they did, at least in most cases.
Main reason for that is that we humans are defined by our upbringing, the circumstances of our journey to adulthood and beyond.
But it is on us to prevail over the hardships through our force of will.
If we follow life blindly and just go with the stream we will be a result of our surroundings.
For some better for others worse.
But if we challenge the tradition, if we fight against the current we will lead a hard life.
In the end one which will be worthy of living.
In my opinion it's hard to be just towards someone when most people are usually victims of bad circumstances, either early in their lives or later on their journey through adulthood.
When you look at nature you can't really say it's fair or just but in the end balance is achieved.
That's why it's important to give everyone the same opportunity and the same start.
If they really want it they'll find a way, we are humans after all.
Not an elephant or a fish but one of the most adaptable species on this planet ;)
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IMO, it was "fair" only when you look at small picture. Justice does not exist unless you choose to ignore some parts of bigger picture.
philosophy at steamgifts hehe
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Perfect justice is found only in the next life. In this one, we can only strive to uphold justice to the best of our ability.
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I think we're saying the same thing, just from a different perspective. What I'm saying is that in the picture on the right each boy was given an equal view of the game. I'm not looking at what they were physically given, the boxes to stand on, but the end result to have the same view of the game, which to me is equality.
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We're talking about the given means, not the result. ;P
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Read my reply to Khalaq it's right above your post.
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Yeah, but equality is about the given means, but not how they decide to use them. A teacher will be equal to all of his students if he will teach them all the same things, but there will be justice if he decides to help a specific student a bit more because that student is finding these things difficult to learn.
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Excellent GIF. I've been trying to teach people this for years.
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they are watching the game without paying. there is no equality to the others who paid for their game steve! pay the fucking game steve! pay for it! :D
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There's no equality, but there's justice, because the kids are very poor and their father was sent to the gulag, so why not let them enjoy the game too?
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Eventually it gets rounded to zero, yeah. (Depends on how many decimals SG uses on calculations etc.)
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I've won dev keys before -- the GA creator WAS in fact the dev and never entered any giveaway.
It sounds very strange indeed, and sets a dangerous precedent.
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Eh, it's whatever.
Not terribly fond of it, but a couple non-bundled games is usually more CV than they're getting for 50 or more copies of those dev keys.
I'd much rather see them give them away strictly within their group (and not on SG for CV), but what can you do?
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I can think of a suitable action on the community's part.
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I try not to stress too much about the BS that happens on SG, though. Life's too short for that crap. ;)
So they level up faster and win a couple more games than I do ... whoop dee doo, in my opinion LOL. Whatever docks their yacht. :)
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It's a philosophy from a relatively unknown group of Chinese monks, handed down over thousands of years through a secret society.
It's called "IDGAF-Fu" XD
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It would be less of a concern if such an exception was made for a respected member of this community, but that guy's account is, as we say over here, "dirtier than a hen-house roost".
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Well, that's the thing, though -- if you cockblock one person for it, you have to cockblock them all for it, and therein lies the problem. :X
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Once I've bought a very old analog meter for these things, still working! ^_^
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I can see myself as a devoted follower of IDGAF-Fu. But them monks got to market it better, because it's not easy to pronounce it. Maybe, it sounds better in Chinese :P
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SG is small potatoes in life for me.
It's fun, but not worth stressing over or worrying about.
When it gets to that point, I'll replace it with something less stressful.
That's all. :)
EDIT: too late, luller, i saw you! :O
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My philosophy: Fix myself rather than wasting my time trying to fix others. It'll take more time than I have just to accomplish the first task, so I'll never have time for the second.
And I have to live with myself every day. Thank heavens I don't have to live with any of you. :P
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By the way, I have a spare Endorlight key lying around... if anyone wants it...
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Alright, I'll get the pitchforks...
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super shady
I'd like to believe this is some kind of mistake.
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I brought this up a bit ago, the community seems pretty split on it.
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But this is not any featured GA. It's a free game being given away by a regular user.
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Shouldn't a "free game" both cost and reward 0 CV ?
Surely if this happened most people objections could be addressed.
If it does indeed reward the GA creator with any CV (or cost to enter) then the GA has lost its free status for this particular example.
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Shouldn't a "free game" both cost and reward 0 CV ?
Perhaps, but that was never implemented.
If it does indeed reward the GA creator with any CV (or cost to enter) then the GA has lost its free status for this particular example.
So it seems. Yet no one else can create Endorlight giveaways.
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Support gave us special permission to giveaway copies of Indie Game Battle. I'm 99.9% sure that I received no C.V. for it, and if I did, it was an insignificant amount.
I think you guys are loosing sight of why we're all here, this isn't a battle of who can amass the largest C.V. We all do what we do because we enjoy sharing what we have, with people who have less. That's your reward, not numbers on a screen.
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I see not the unfairness that someone might get CV for a free GA (or even multiple copies). I think if such a precedent can be set, then everyone should be able to add "free" games with the understanding that to enter costs 0 points - and the GA creator is awarded 0 CV.
To say "it cannot be done" is clearly not accurate.
Would this result in the servers being "flooded" with thousands of free gibs. I doubt it. Maybe at first while people can give away (in the truest sense) free spares that they have. I can't see users flocking to gleam gibs only so they can put a free game up on SG - purely for altruistic reasons as it benefits them in no manner other than a warm glow inside (of course such giving users do exist).
The argument has been made again and again - for games that were free 3 or 4 years ago, and to date have never reappeared on SG.
I can't imagine that allowing games on the free list would require a complete redesign of SG - but more of an addition / adjustment.
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In that case, can I have a refund for the things I have bought on your store?
;-)
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If you're just here to share, why not do it on promo only, non-personal accounts? Why use the same accounts you also join other giveaways with?
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I've never won a public giveaway on SG! I'm in a group called Bundlequest, where we share bundle duplicates, all my wins are via that group. At one point I didn't even enter their giveaway, but the group management pulled me to one side and told me I was hoarding ratio by giving and not taking, so I started.
Anyway, I work from home. using more than 1 account per IP address is again the rules. I'd get banned for doing what you suggested, or do you think that I shouldn't be allowed to enter any giveaways full stop?
Here - http://prnt.sc/avht8q
As you can see, 135 of the 142 giveaways I've won are via Bundlequest, the other 7 are in most Probability private staff giveaways the OP management have held. or other groups I enjoy spending time with like Golden 100.
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Its against the rules unless you get approval from support.
If you wanted, you could have contacted support to do a mass giveaway on another account. cg is normally very happy to oblige such requests as it benefits devs and the community.
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I didn't know you could do that, if I did it would obviously of been something I'd of looked into. I fear it's a little late now, once the giveaway platform on our website is out of Beta, we'll be moving all our giveaways over to our website anyway.
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So it seems support is OK with this. These kinds of shenanigans will kill the CV system, turning most giveaways group-only, which in turn will be the end of SG for many. Well done.
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He obviously was cleared to do it. It says 1P but for all we know maybe it's setup to where he earns nothing and it was done so he had a better chance to give away all of the soundtracks. Even if not it's only a 1P game and after all of the deductions for giving away multiple copies of the same game he's not going to earn very much CV from it anyway. Without knowing the details of the negotiation which allowed him to create the giveaway we have really no reason to complain and even if that one person out of the 907,008 members here does get full CV it's not effecting you or your chances to win any games here in any way. The giveaway couldn't be made without cg's approval so there's nothing "super shady" about it at all either.
I do agree that Developer accounts shouldn't be allowed to enter giveaways.
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He's not a dev, he's a regular user that was handed the keys and made the GA on his personal account.
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he's a regular user that was handed the keys and made the GA on his personal account
An account featuring double wins, non-activated wins and 2 VAC bans.
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At most ~10 CV, including the game and the dlc, so almost nothing for a LVL 5.
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I was curious and I did a script to compute it and it resulted to: $8.4
CV dropped to 0 for the base game @ 154th copy with 6 digit decimal
CV dropped to 0 for the soundtrack @ 143th copy with 6 digit decimal
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He actually already gave away 15 copies of that game, so even less.
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I don't see why people get so up in arms about this kind of thing.
"Oh my god, someone has a thousand copies of a game and decided to give them away to our community? Fuck them, they don't deserve any CV for it." It's even more baffling when it's the actual developer giving away thousands of keys - "I don't care about this developer's potential lost sales, he didn't lose any real money and doesn't deserve his contributor level." Multiple copies already have a built-in penalty in that they lose CV. They don't need a steeper penalty of "no CV at all" or an even steeper penalty of "you can never enter another giveaway"
When people give away a ton of games here, for whatever reason, that should be encouraged. Instead, people just break out the pitchforks and find something to take offense to. Whether they paid for it or not, they're giving away games to the community. People don't have to come here and give us games. Discouraging them from doing that is completely stupid. Especially in the developer case, where holding a large mass giveaway absolutely devalues their game and hurts their future ability to sell it at full price.
And if they're breaking other rules, then that's your real issue and you should complain about rulebreakers going unpunished instead of people being rewarded for contributing a lot of games.
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It's not the dev, it's a regular user same as you. The only difference is that you and everyone is banned from making GA's from Endorlight.
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I never said it was the dev. I just added some commentary on devs because the dev topic has been brought up several times here already. Just delete the three sentences with "developer" and it reads fine for this particular situation.
As far as the "everyone else is banned" thing, obviously the intent of that ban was not to discourage large developer giveaways of their own games. It's to prevent scummy users from cleaning out those multi-key giveaways and trying to give the games away here for some quick CV, screwing over people who actually want the game. Obviously, someone giving away a thousand copies of the same game isn't exploiting a largescale giveaway or trying for quick CV, so support allowed it. If there was an easy way to check the source on formerly free games, non-free copies would almost certainly still be allowed here as well. Unfortunately, short of sheer volume, there's not really a good way to prove things, since even someone with a steam inventory copy could just PM the user a key at the end of the giveaway, then refund their inventory gift copy.
That aside, though, when someone wants to give away a thousand copies of a game here, do you really want support to say "No, take your shitty games elsewhere, giving that game away free was a horrible mistake because any game given away free is complete worthless shit for all eternity. You should just throw those keys away, because nobody could ever possibly want them again."? Because I don't want that. I want support to say "These were clearly not obtained through exploiting the free promo, and I bet a lot of users here missed the promo and would appreciate it. Approved."
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Again, I think the issue is less about the CV earned and more about the fact that it is a personal account. If these devs truly wanted to do "freebie giveaways" like many other sites, why perform them on personal accounts? Accounts that will also go on to enter other giveaways on the site. At best, it's a grey area.
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Most of these people aren't actually "devs" (though there are a few on this site). Developer is just a tag SG has designated to allow a user to create much larger single giveaways of multiple copies, and to be shown as a "featured" giveaway.
Most of these dev keys are had from curator groups on Steam, to be doled out in exchange for reviews of their game. If anything, the curator system Steam has implemented is the real problem here, as it's facilitated users soliciting large quantities of dev keys under the "curator" umbrella.
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Accounts that will also go on to enter other giveaways on the site
Not mine anymore.
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Whats more interesting, if i farm at the next free 15k+ Game that comes out 500-1000 Keys with Bots, can i make then too a Giveaway approved by Support? :P
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If you manage to bot out 5% or more of the keys by yourself without having anyone notice and revoke the keys, yeah, probably. But if that's the case, the site doing the mass giveaway is really, really dumb or you have a botnet so large that you're massively wasting its potential just for twenty or thirty bucks of CV
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Theres events with much more Keys: 20k, 25k... And what 200? 300? wheres the cap then?
Its not only CV theres much more. Ratio win / loss, Real given cv, and so on
In the end i don't care anyway should people do what they want, but my opinion about it a rule should apply to everyone. So if a game is banned form giving away it should be banned for everyone. If Dev, someone who got keys from Dev, or normal user shouldn't make a difference.
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The thing is, the rule exists to prevent regifting from those big giveaways. If there's a good way to verify that the keys being given away aren't from a big giveaway, it's not going against the spirit of the rule to allow that giveaway. Sheer quantity is a pretty good indicator that the source is not "massive abuse of a public giveaway" but rather "direct from the dev.
You're right that it's possible, but if someone wants to use a botnet or incredibly advanced anti-detection coding to scam $20-$30 dollars of CV, they are an idiot. They could make more money than that in so many ways that I would argue they DID pay for the keys, by giving up valuable programming time or botnet time, both of which are worth far more than $20
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Depending on where the Giveaway is hold you sure don't need a bot net for ~100-300 Keys.
Hell for the Joystick awards (civ 5 / mafia 2) even i could had gone easily for 200+ Keys.
And my Programing / scripting skill don't exist.
My Opinion still is the Same if you make a Game Banned, have the rule that games given Free out then make it for everyone.
If not the Rule is good for nothing. But thats only my Opinion.
edit: forgot, or let people proove that their copy too is form an old bundle / a gift.
If he is allowed to proof it (if he even proofed it) than (then?) everyone else should be allowed too.
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If you think so, do it.
I can guarantee you that you will either be caught long before reaching 200 or that you will put in a lot more than $30 worth of your own time. And you could definitely make more than $30 selling them at that point as well. The diminishing returns on CV make it very pointless to try to exploit the system with a lot of copies of the same key, which is why literally nobody does what you're suggesting and then brings those keys here.
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My Opinion still is the Same if you make a Game Banned, have the rule that games given Free out then make it for everyone.
If not the Rule is good for nothing. But thats only my Opinion.
Mine as well.
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Or one could sit around all day creating dlh accounts and getting hundreds of two worlds keys... no skills required.
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Again, go ahead and try that. #1, dlh will probably ban you long before you get that far. #2, even if not, you will have put in many, many hours of your life - something that has a monetary value much higher than the tiny amount of CV you'd get for those keys.
And at that point, I would argue that you DID play for the keys, just in unpaid labor instead of cash.
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1 They could only ban IPs, and any kid today knows how to circumvent that.
2 You underestimate the free time and disposition of some people.
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That's not entirely the point. Why don't you/I/Everyone else make your own Endorlight GAs?
That's right, you can't It's supposed to be banned here.
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I addressed this point up above, but quick rehash version - that ban exists because scumbags will go to free key giveaways, grab one (or more), and immediately throw it up here. That abuse means that people who actually want the giveaway can't get it and the scumbag profits here. When someone has a thousand keys, they clearly didn't leech them off a largescale giveaway, so it's fine for support to allow exceptions in those cases.
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When someone has a thousand keys, they clearly didn't leech them off a largescale giveaway
Unlikely, but completely feasible. It doesn't really matter where the keys come from, once it's on the free list, it should be banned for everyone. That guy is getting a CV boost, no matter how small, and he's not even the dev.
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He's also giving away a thousand keys.
I feel like that's the part everyone's forgetting here. The guy took a thousand keys and decided to give them away to us instead of doing something else with them. How, exactly, is that a bad thing? Yeah, he's getting a relatively small CV boost in a way that you can't, but the reason you can't is because you don't have a thousand keys, not because he's getting some kind of special treatment. If you had that many keys and went to support, yeah, they'd let you give them away too.
There's the letter of the rule and the spirit of the rule. I would rather have support enforcing the spirit of the rule in cases like this. I asked this elsewhere in the thread, but I'll ask you as well. Do you really want support to say "No, take your shitty games elsewhere, giving that game away free was a horrible mistake because any game given away free is complete worthless shit for all eternity. You should just throw those keys away, because nobody could ever possibly want them again."? Because I don't want that. I want support to say "These were clearly not obtained through exploiting the free promo, and I bet a lot of users here missed the promo and would appreciate it. Approved."
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As a matter of fact, he is being given a special kind of treatment. The administration is bending its own rules in his favor. That's the point. I did not make them up, but yes, I do wish to see them being fully enforced.
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They're bending the rule because the intent of the rule has nothing to do with stopping people from giving away huge numbers of keys developer-sourced keys. The intent is to prevent regifting off those big public giveaways.
Speaking of which, if a developer gives away 5000 copies of their game here and doesn't do a mass public giveaway anywhere else, the game isn't put on the free list. Do you know why?
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That person is NOT a developer, I think we had established that. He's a common user, that will be able to enjoy the fruits of his... benevolence. And not a rule-abiding one, too.
No, I don't know why. Again, devs don't abuse the CV they get from their giveaways. Most of them don't even enter any.
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Developer-sourced. I never said the guy in question was a developer, but he got them from a dev. Nobody here is actually arguing that he stole his thousand keys out of a giveaway in this particular case. In fact, I'm arguing that even if someone wanted to waste their time doing that, they've effectively paid for the keys with their time and I still don't mind it.
As for the fact that he's broken other rules, that's not relevant to the question at all. If you think support hasn't punished his other rule violations enough already, that's an entirely separate discussion from this.
As for the developer giveaway question, it's because when games are given away here, support has an easy way to tell if they're getting regifted - if the user in question won it here and didn't activate it, it's a regift. If they didn't win the big giveaway, it came from somewhere else. I'm aware that there are more subtleties to the process, but that's not important. The point is, with an offsite giveaway, there's no way to check a specific key for its origin to make sure it didn't come from that big giveaway. With an on-site one, there is such a way, so the game doesn't go on the free games list. That's not what the rule says, but yet it happens that way. It's the intent of the rule that matters.
I completely agree that developers don't abuse their CV, even when they choose to enter giveaways. I would also argue that someone giving away a thousand keys that they have permission to give away isn't abusing the CV they get. There's already a system in place that makes sure large giveaways of a single game are rewarded appropriately instead of game value times 1000. If you don't like that system, fine, but to call it abuse is clearly incorrect when it's intentionally designed that way.
Basically, I think this whole conversation just boils down to "I don't have a developer willing to give me a thousand keys, fuck that guy for being in a different situation than me." And I choose not to be on the sour grapes side. Of all the ways he could have given those keys away, he did it here. He's barely getting rewarded for it, and a thousand people here who missed the other freebies can get the game. I don't see a problem with that.
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I really don't get why anyone cares about anyones CV other than their own. I also don't personally see why games that were once given away free shouldn't be able to be given away again, not everyone got their chance to get it, and now they get denied forever. (and don't give me the flooded argument, you don't wanna see em, set the game to ignore, done.)
But regardless back to the CV point. he's giving something away, how he got it isn't illegal, it's not stolen, and it's no regifted, so why care beyond that? And if you do care, then just block him. Done. I don't see why denying everyone else the chance to enter because he didn't pay for it helps anyone.
Why can't people just be happy that other people are sharing stuff here \o/
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You missed the point. No one cares about the $8 CV. He is allowed to giveaway a banned game and you're not.
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Which is why I think everyone should be able to give it away (actually, I lied, I thought that before this specific case).
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Why can't people just be happy that other people are sharing stuff here \o/
Because some wouldn't like to see an anarchic SG. Without rules and their enforcement there is chaos.
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Well in order to MAKE the GA they had to contact SG Staff, get permission, have them allow them to do it, and then not get deleted.. It's not like you can go do it tomorrow.. ergo, no chaos.
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they had to contact SG Staff, get permission
That's exactly the point, isn't it?
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Yes I am talking about Endorlight.
Banned for everyone else, but roll by with a thousand of keys the actual dev handed your Steam group and making a GA with them on your normal SG account is apparently OK - and super shady.
Edit: For everyone missing the point- no one cares about the $8 CV, it's that a regular user can give away a banned game, apparently provided you have X copies, and everyone else can't.
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