I LOVE YOUR GIFS!
I know I keep repeating myself, shhh.
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I know she's magic, but how did she say all of that so quickly with minimal mouth movement?
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OK, I'll admit that this made me laugh a little bit.
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So you made another thread about it to stir the pot? Lol.
I think people are entitled to complain when they don't get what they're promised. Besides, a "legit" developer doesn't have to worry about receiving negative comments, so I don't see what the problem is.
Carry on :3.
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What were they promised that they didn't receive? The "developer" had no issues with giving away his games. He got in trouble for non-activation of gifts that he won. That only causes issues for the people that he won from (though I guess he DID mark them as received) and not the troll bandwagon that has followed.
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The issue here is with staff, not the user in question.
Stop trying to cause more drama with a rambly, unfocused post that attacks people with legitimate concerns, no matter how out of hand the behavior involved may be getting.
Treating people with disrespect and histrionics isn't going to improve anything, just aggravate things more.
That said, the sentiment buried in that all, I fully support- there are many amazing developers on this site who deserve our support, and not to in any way be drug down by this topic.
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I dunno. I have a lot of keys to a particular game to give away myself and was going to request the incorrectly named "Developer" status so I could do them all in one giveaway. Many comments today were way too generalized and if one hadn't been following the drama from the beginning (and before that one thread got closed) they would believe that the general feelings of the users of this site towards Developers is that they are all idiots, thieves, rule-breakers... and many other adjectives.
Seems to me like the staff did their job just fine. One person was suspended for calling out and not using the proper procedure for reporting. The other was suspended for non-activation of gifts and his begging for whitelist thread was closed by cg. What did the staff do wrong other than not act fast enough for some of you? Does no one else here remember the part about them being volunteers and having lives away from SG? Does this give people permission to still act like douches about it now that it's all over?
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You're making a lot of excuses for a symptom, rather than addressing the problem itself.
Which makes you think you're not at all aware of what the actual complaints are about- a repeated pattern of catering to rule-breaking/ill-minded users.
Lets be blunt:
Staff made a massive mistake when they lifted the individual's suspension in the first place.
That emphasized how many rulebreakers had gotten away with shit without punishment on this site, and riled up tensions about that.
That the individual then IMMEDIATELY went back to scamming and begging is certainly a betrayal of trust on their part, but naive as the the staff was toward a very obvious outcome, the fact remains it was still the staff's decision to start this whole thing up..
Not only with this last act, but with all the previous intentional oversights and leniency toward misbehavior in the past.
As I noted before, it's good to address things like 'making sure the CURRENT issue doesn't get confused, and somehow become a blame toward developers on the whole [I myself even made a similar comment earlier].
But your phrasing was terrible, mocking people with legitimate concerns over the matters I just mentioned, using dismissive phrasing, and seeming intentionally hostile.
And, no matter how confused this particular situation was, and what excuses you make for it, the underlying grievances involved still exist.
Regardless of who is to blame for them.
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PS: Staff on the whole presented themselves as douches first.
Could we be more respectful? Sure.
Have we tried that? Yes.
Did it get any response? No.
Most of the people involved probably are overblowing it and acting out, I can't argue that.
But when any group in power doesn't respond well to its populace, things will eventually flare up.
Think of this like a sim game-
Sure, Staff can't be blamed if an earthquake happens, but they can be blamed for not adding in earthquake-appropriate construction materials in the first place, to mitigate the intensity.
Nevermind they've basically been drilling for oil trying to start earthquakes themselves, in my personal experience with them.
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cg explained why the suspension was temporarily lifted. It sounds like a very valid reason to me.
http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/svD25/this-is-a-new-low-steamgifts/search?page=3#JygKu2e
I think that one of the biggest issues is that people expect an instant resolution when they have a valid complaint and that's not always possible. Should there be more staff here? Sure. It's something that's been talked about around here ever since I started coming to this site. But, in the meantime anyone who has been here for at least a few months should know how things work. Instant gratification is a phrase not seen or used around here very often. The staff's responses or lack thereof doesn't condone some of the crap I have read today.
There are also many features that the site gives us to avoid having to deal with assholes. Tools such as the Blacklist and being able to do group giveaways and set cv limits on entries. No one had to enter his giveaways and no one had to allow him to enter theirs. No one had to read or reply to his posts. One or two clicks and he would have been out of their lives. In the meantime reports will be made and they will be taken care of when someone can. So simple. But it seems that people would rather bitch and moan and be a part of the problem rather than contribute to a solution - a solution that would make sense with what is known about how this site is ran.
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Again, you're on a different topic than [I] am. :/
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Let me introduce another topic ...
Why are developers, who have access to 100's, if not 1000's of keys (for nothing) allowed to enter GAs and increase they CV level? Also, why isn't Developer status checked and verified -- clearly the person in question isn't a developer giving away copies of his/her own game ...
Hell, what's to stop me from heading over to G2A and buying 100 keys for the same game for 10c each and asking for a Developer tag?
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That is indeed related to the topic at hand- unfortunately. :/
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Well, it wasn't directly and I didn't want to hi-jack your train of thought ... but yeah ... I've often wondered why "Developers" (who have never actually developed or given away their own game) can enter GAs. Seems a separate tag is needed for mass donors to distinguish them from actual developers. Just because someone has access to mass quantities of keys shouldn't make them eligible for a "developer" account, in my opinion.
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and what do you win with that developer tag? status?
you get nothing except an increase of slots.
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Judging from the now-closed thread that shall remain nameless, people tend to more easily trust someone with a Developer tag on their profile. The more cynical among us know better, but I get the feeling from that thread we're in the minority.
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You can ask support to manually add giveaway slots to your account. I think that's how Mellymelly got their 150 giveaway event, although they ran into the 100 giveaways/day limit. Devs don't have this limit.
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I have 1000 keys and figured I would need the Developer privileges to give them away in a single giveaway. I may just spread it out in multiple ones instead but I will most definitely need more slots. Thank you for the info.
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I believe normal users can't make giveaways over 25 copies with cg intervention, so if you want to make larger copy giveaways you'll need to submit a support ticket.
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Thanks for the info. I may try something different but it's good to know.
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Might be wrong with my numbers. I haven't tried to make a large giveaway before. So yeah, if you want to make a large giveaway and it gives you some error, then you'll probably need to get moderator help.
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What if the complain is based on a wrong assumption, because people jumped to conclusions without any actual insights ?
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What if it's all support's fault for maintaining an atmosphere where we have to assume the worst, and then making vague, snarky comments instead of addressing us respectfully on the topic?
[This isn't even a stab at you, I'm completely seriously asking.]
Besides, the person in question has a long, long history of misdeeds, and support has a well-formed history (or as it is perceived by many) of poor user management- it's not like most of us jumped to casual conclusions.
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I'll preface this with "I know you said it wasn't a stab at Tempete" BUT
if you are going to blame support, at least blame cg instead. it's his site and I'm pretty sure he sets the precedent for how things are handled. the support are just regular users who are unpaid volunteers who are giving up countless hours trying to do the best they can within a support system that (as best as I can make out) isn't ideal. casually talking to some support members whom I'm friends with I know they are sometimes just as frustrated by what they are unable to do
edit: I want to clarify that I don't think cg is to blame either, just he's the one in control on how everything is run, and if anyone should be addressed (not blamed) it should be him
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(The line you're quoting wasn't meant as an excuse for ill behavior, but a clarification of tone and intent. Just to clarify, I wasn't intending any direct negativity.)
I've had extremely negative interactions with staff [Not Tempete], but positive ones with Rinarin, and nothing of note with cg.
I can't make assumptions toward how cg runs things, so I won't assume its his fault. Though he certainly needs to affect more oversight on his staff, if nothing else.
But the excuse of 'I did a shitty job because I'm an unpaid volunteer' is nonsensical.
I'd love to hear more about what staff can and can't do, solely to not unfairly judge them on that, but I was actually making comments toward their explicit behavior that I've seen thus far.
If that's in part the fault of cg, let them bring it up with him, or ragequit over the complaints until he changes his approach.
It's not for us to guess how the staff handles things, only to note that the current handling is at times extremely ...well, fucked up, to put it bluntly. :P
But no, given some of the things support directly told me..
I assure you, at the very least, it's a shared blame.
Please note, I am not 'attacking your friends', but clarifying a very unusual framework in place on this site that encourages ill behavior from users, and makes positive-minded users feel mistreated.
Regardless of the foundations that cause that, that framework still remains in place, and ought be addressed.
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But the excuse of 'I did a shitty job because I'm an unpaid volunteer' is nonsensical.
I don't think any of the support staff is making that excuse, just me, a third party observer. I also make that statement from the perspective where I'm friends with several of the support staff and know quite a few more enough to know they are legit people. yet they are doing a largely thankless job, getting countless invites on Steam and messages on their steam profiles about support tickets (despite some of them having messages on their profiles not to do just that), and more, and then have to read the forums to see people complaining about how bad support is. keep in mind that there is a rather large backlog of tickets last time i checked for them to deal with, and yes, not every staff member can do any support task, if you go to the roles page you can see there are different types of mods, from the lowest (not including Shobo <3) who can only suspend for a few reasons from what I've gathered, to admin (cg) whom alone can do a handful of things no one else can (add games to the database, modify the number of copies in a giveaway, from what I remember but I'm sure there are more). for the longest time there were only two people on the entire site who could remove negative rep from user profiles on ST (besides the person who left the rep, ofc).
I think support has made it abundantly clear since the time of Cult and Lokonopa (and to this day) that you should simply report what you think to be bad behavior and MOVE ON. I have seen so many times support (and even regular users) tell people to not call out. and if you don't like the way something was handled make a ticket a few days after whatever it is has happened (since not all the support staff are online 24/7 reading the forums and are all able to confer with one another the second something happens).
/end rant
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Yeah, well, so long as the staff supports people actively being bigots and scamming users, that last paragraph isn't going to fly.
Your view is colored by you being friends with the staff, and mine, by [a small number of] the staff having directly been assholes to me.
But no matter how anything else is handled, who is to blame, who is right or wrong, etc;
The FACT remains that SG has an issue with people feeling they can get away with inexcusable behavior- and in the case of things like bigotry, it's often encouraged by the staff, when they post in response to, or right alongside, and make no remark toward it whatsoever, not even a 'That's inappropriate, please stop.'
So no, no matter any secondary considerations- of who is to attribute responsibility to, how bad things actually are, how good/bad staff is, how much staff should/not be appreciated, etc;
The fact is the site has legitimate problems that need to eventually be addressed.
Else, people flaring up is just going to keep happening- and that's not on the users involved [other than the ones obviously just trolling with it or enjoying fanning the flames] any more than it be fair to blame the entirety of the moderator staff for everything and anything wrong with the site.
Again, you seem to think I'm attacking the staff, when I'm instead trying to highlight a problem that staff on the whole is mismanaging- regardless of if they have the means or understanding to address it properly.
Heck, even the staff members I've had issues with- severe as I perceived them to be- have been reasonably genial in following interactions.
So no, I'm not trying to make this about the staff, but noting there are patterns of problems that keep occurring, and will keep occurring until a better approach of handling them is devised.
And in that? Yeah, I'm with you: That's on cg to take responsibility for.
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Yeah, well, so long as the staff supports people actively being bigots and scamming users
where has this ever happened? if you're talking about the person the OP is talking about that's already been explained, no staff members were "supporting" that individual. I've always been pro-support too, even before some of my friends become support, I'm just more outspoken about it now because I know all the shit they have to deal with and how it effects them. and without knowing what happened with you and support staff I can't really take your word on it.
I think at the end of the day you and I see things differently, I don't see these "problems" you keep mentioning, nor do I see support staff sending the signals you apparently see them sending to the sites user base. :x
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That's one of my points. It's hard to tell if most of the comments are just people trolling or people who didn't know what happened and are trying to put their 2 cents in.
I have read several posts since making this one and it's still going on - several in the last 20 minutes or so. Totally derails and is disrespectful to the OP.
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Well, then that isn't what they were promised... that's just what they "think" they were promised. facepalm.
I didn't read the thread that this post was in reply to. I just thought it was silly to make a thread complaining about another thread, and using it to tell people to "drop it", lol.
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I admire the restraint demonstrated by all Support staff when people accuse you guys of rescinding suspensions.
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Sucks that most of the time we can't defend ourselves. Revealing ticket information = first class ticket to not being support.
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Yes, I originally had said that last line but I felt that I was being no better than those I'm talking about so I deleted it.
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Thanks for admitting you feel you're better than other users!
:rolleyes:
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Yes. I am better than the rule-breakers that haven't been caught yet, the trolls, and the drama queens that are on this site; "those I'm talking about". The rest of them are great and I am no better than they are nor do I claim to be.
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i'm positive this can be solved with more gifs
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I was not here all day So i'm lost on all this. I won't ask since it could be considered calling out or what, but still. I don't know what the hell is going on, but if a dev is doing something shady I hoped they got banned or at the very least a very good suspension from this site.
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http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/svD25/this-is-a-new-low-steamgifts/search?page=3#JygKu2e cg's response has a short summaryish.
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Oh. . . I think I remember the discussion post on SG a while back (Unless it's another one) Strange to hear all that went on. Thank you for the link.
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I think we have a different concept of what generosity means. Basic difference between a developer and a regular user:
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Developer: press a button and gets thousands of keys of his game for free. Then he creates a giveaway here to gain popularity for his work and maybe some reviews on steam with minimal effort.
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Regular (generous) member: buys (sometimes full price) GTA V or another AAA $60 game and gives it here for nothing in return.
I'm not criticizing what developers do here because Steamgifts gets a lot of visitors thanks to this, but I would not call it "generosity". It's more like a win-win situation for both parts, the developer gets fame, Steamgifts gets visitors and some users get free games.
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Sure it didn't cost them anything to generate those keys, but they might have lost future sales by giving away copies for free. Also if the game is crappy then their store page may get flooded with bad reviews. Considering that the majority of users on this site do not give even a single penny..I think it's still generous.
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No, it's exactly the opposite; if you're an unknown developer you need visibility for your game. And this is a good and legit way to achieve it. Several good games on Steam have very few reviews because they didn't know how to promote their game well. And if you have few reviews your game will not be popular and you will never be on Steam main page.
If you give some games for free and is a good product, you will get positive reviews=more sales. If nobody knows your game although is a good one, you will not earn a single cent. And you will not see Rockstar coming here and creating a 500 copies giveaway of GTA V because they don't need to. They use other (more expensive) channels to promote their games.
This is called marketing and it is learned on some universities :P
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I do agree with the fact that it's marketing (and some devs have very advertise-y giveaway descriptions) but I think it's still generous to giveaway full copies of games. They could have released a demo or free weekend, for example, to maximize visibility without losing profit.
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Well, let's consider giveaways of full copies the most aggressive marketing campaign, but I think it's normal to do this by an unknown developer, considering how many games are on Steam nowadays. It has become more difficult to get visibility. Demos and free weekends are mostly AAA games from popular companies.
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I think you wanted to reply to fubarnocaps, that is what I was trying to explain ;)
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no, that was specially for you.
well you can both share the reply if you want :3
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Ah ok, you meant that Steamgifts is investing in advertisement allowing developers to post their mostly crappy games here. Of course I agree.
No, now it's all mine, I won't share it! ;)
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what? no xD
i mean that devs advertise their games here...
why everyone confused me ;_;
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Ah ok! That is the other side of the coin, I tried to explain that win-win situation on my first post. I understand your point, the developers "lose" some sales in the present giving free games expecting to earn money in the future if their game becomes popular through this site. Now?
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My concern is that it's not only developers who can get a "Developer" tag here on SG. The person in question today was clearly not a developer, had only created a 50 copy GA of a $1 game (that they probably got for nothing for his group), and received a "Developer" tag for it. Then that person was easily able to inflate his CV level, ask for WL and enter a bunch of higher level whitelist GAs later on -- GAs paid for out of our pockets (meaning the average SG user).
IMHO only people who actually develop and release a game on Steam and give that game away in large quantities should be allowed the developer tag here on SG. -- and they should not be allowed to enter GAs on that account, only their personal account. There should be some vetting system for developers to verify that they're actual developers and not just group owners dumping mass amounts of keys they got for nothing (like another "Developer" account with which I'm sure you're familiar).
As far as those certain group owners who dump mass amounts of free keys (meaning they paid nothing for them) -- I've no idea where to start with that ...
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I agree with all you said here, most group owners get their keys begging to the real developers and promising lots of free reviews from his group members.
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Potato? Where are my potatos?? :l Just trying to make things more happier :D
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A new topic to to drag on the complaining they want to stop..hmmmm
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So glad I missed this one. Drama. Drama everywhere.
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Aaaaand you created the thread which sparked up the discussion again.
You're saying that people should "just let it rest", yet you start a thread which obviously, you should know will have the opposite effect. What is a thread? It is a topic in which users of the forum will engage in a discussion. Now, tell me, if this what you want? I really don't know who you'd expect from doing this, but whatever you're doing right now, stop - you are doing it entirely wrong.
If you want to rant about anyone not following the rules, or a thread which should be deleted being still open, just submit a ticket and report it. Let's face it - there is absolutely no reason for which you should have created a thread for this in the first place. You're just as bad as whoever you blame of being a "drama-queen" (no offense).
TL;DR: You've worsened the case by creating this thread.
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And no one has made a comment in 13+ hours and you had to revive it. smh
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Man, you just did the same, you "revived it"... First you complain about drama queens, and you are being one in this thread, then you point out that someone revived the thread...the same time you are doing exactly the same.
What can I say to you? You need to cultivate a more logical mindset man because you are full of nonsense.
Good luck, read some books...or something.
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The guy was caught and suspended yet in nearly every post that I have read this afternoon there's at least one tongue-in-cheek reply about Developers getting away with breaking the rules here. We now know that isn't the case and not everyone who uses this site will even know WTF people are talking about now that one of the involved threads was deleted so just let it rest, will ya? Many of the comments had nothing to do with the OP to begin with and appear to be just a way to drag it on. There are also legit developers who contribute here and I know that if I had read some of the comments about Developers that I have seen today I would take my generosity elsewhere.
It's over. Grow up and drop the subject now. So many drama queens here.
And feel free to blacklist me for expressing my opinion on this subject. I know that I'm not the only one who has it.
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