What do you think of the message portrayed in this movie?
I'm not interested in your utopian societies where only "modern" ideas are "right" and everyone gets everything for free, except choice. I find it disgusting people who advocate for individual freedom on issues THEY like, such as legalization of drugs(chemicals designed to rob you of individual freedom), etc., are willing to rob others of freedom to get things for free because Captain Planet told them capitalists pollute things or whatever.
Sorry for being a filthy hateful individualist who won't embrace love and give my life to the collective.
As far as college/medicine being too expensive, I'd rather we stop "making it cost less" by taking money from people you don't like, and by doing this controversial thing called "actually making things more cost-efficient instead of just throwing more money at problems".
Edit: The reason for my hostility(beyond my normal hostility because I'm a prick), is because the title implies if we don't embrace YOUR way of thinking, we're somehow "doomed", and because you write things like:
"Should't sex education be focused on contraception in stead of abstinence"
What if some people don't want their kids constantly screwing each other because they have morality beyond society being a giant orgy?
"Should't schools give less homework for kids to be able to socialize and process what they have learned?"
While I agree on less HW(it's shit shit shit filler work grading kids on participating/sharing answers and not reading them), I'd rather we STOP forcing kids to be social in schools. Giving opportunity is good, but not everyone is an extroverted athletic who needs to be reminded the states of freaking matter every year in science class.
"Should't kids get proper food in school (considering the amount of obese kids)"
Clearly, they all need to stop eating meat and whatever else some random vegan extremist says. Or they need to stop eating things with DANGEROUS CANCER FOOD COLORING. There are tons of opinions on what "proper food" is, and you can't force people to conform to the one diet congress decides fits every damn human being.
"Is it true America is still so incredibly racist"
Racism is to some extent an innate human instinct which I believe is best worked through by having people talk to each other rather than telling white people how racist they are all the time. Racial/cultural/religious tension happens when you put a bunch of different people with very different ideologies in one place. And that leads to my real conclusion...
You're assuming everyone has the same beliefs and values in what they spend money on, what is considered appropriate behavior sexually(and even teenagers can be uncomfortable when you constantly demand they screw each other), what is a "good" diet(which realistically varies person to person with allergies, lifestyles, and genetics, etc.), on what they learn in school, on how social they intend to be, on the rights of prisoners who may have committed some really freaking horrible crimes(Ted Bundy deserves minimum wage will make an excellent campaign slogan), on what people's work is worth(McDonalds shouldn't be paying for your family, the issue there isn't "we need the October Labor Lottery to fix this", it's "we need to educate people better in fields that aren't worthless like IT"), etc.
What I'm saying is, why do you think the majority of socialists support socialism and higher taxes (all across the board)? Do they really support it, or do they just want to be "in"?
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can be this and/or can be that. there is the idea of the state as an authority figure who acts as a guarantor for all socially relevant issues in the role of ultimate controller, be it industry, healtcare, wellfare, or any other aspect that constitutes a civil society, which translates into statalization and nationalization (oversimplification... that would be me). on the other hand, there are those who call themselfs socialist for pure and understandable opportunism, and relatively speaking there would be nothing wrong, at least for the idea itself. i mean, the richest of the bankers and the poorest of the farmers behave essentially the same when it comes to personal ambition and lust. the talls are talls and they will do everything theyr tallnes allows them to do to remain tall... the averages as averages want to be taller and will do everything theyr height allow them to do to become so. the shorts are shorts and they want to be tall too but because they short they can't do shit. the only thing they can do is to call for the abolition of the heights so that they are no longer relegated in their shortness. can be seen as the short's capilalism and is an understandable reasoning. perhaps it is more true for communism then for socialism, but the concept is that i suppose
a thing is to be noted tho. socialism has nothing to do with magic unicorns and rainbows. historically has never been associated with gay rights, society homosexualization and distortion of sexes roles, miscegenation, abortion and drugs liberalization, and other widely promoted degenerate behaviours.
a weed smoker degenerate with an el che or fidel t-shirt preaching about gay marriage and the recognition of the existing 928522138295 genders has nothing to do with socialism pure and simple. that is an external infiltration. a misappropriation by those who have been infected by the plague that cultural marxism is (or neomarxism, or frankfurt school, call it as you please. its the same cancer). lets not mix things up, liberal moderates have a separate medical file, even among the alt-right kek cultists or whatever that is. i have seen enough after the encounter between trump and spencer and my eyes are still bleeding.
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might have screwed things up as a different language can be quite an high barrier when it comes talking this stuff
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Well, personal issues and being surrounded by extremists(yeah, I live in a place where I hear people demanding we betray Israel, demand you vote for a certain party in the school newspaper(this is BEFORE the Trump drama really got started), and protesting the medical concept of obesity as a form of discrimination). So I'm not really that...fair.
In terms of the sex education and stuff, that was mostly just my ramblings trying to respond to everything at once(...I need to stop doing that(and to stop participating in political discussion)). The OP mentioned the idea of promoting abstinence as some kind of massive social injustice.
In general I feel the idea of people not being able to support themselves is an economic issue, and not a social one. I feel a greater focus on educating people "smarter not harder" with less repetitive and long/social classes that expand on the skilled students and give bored kids something to focus on other than grades(did you know learning itself can be fun when teachers stop trying to "make learning fun"?) and being "cool". Oh, and emphasis in IT, removing school tablets/decade old iMacs in favor of Chromebooks(that's a whole other article, though), replacing expensive textbooks(especially science books, they basically cost as much in ink(diagrams and photos all over) as just having a screen display all the books anyways), etc. Oh, and regulate sports team spending so they can't get a ton of donations, blow them all on a stupid inflatable, then run around taking all the other teams' money(robotics is funded partly by the auto teacher) because they spent thousands of dollars on a custom inflatable instead of equipment...
What I'm saying is, we're better off the more tools we give people to actually support themselves with more important jobs in IT and the like instead of literally rioting because burger defrosters can't support their families and buy the newest iPhones for some reason, and making education cheaper should actually be about reducing costs and time, modernizing the bleep out of things(would probably be cheaper when the management stops doing whatever drugs they're on, too, who's in charge of this train wreck?), and emphasizing actually being intelligent over participation ribbons and just letting kids "be social".
I guess it helps to give some background as to why I think making people smarter is more important than spending more money:
My mother's family were refugees from Cambodia, they came to the US, worked hard to catch up with their educations(turns out you don't learn much being forced to grow rice by the commies), then got a bunch of money from real estate and medical degrees.
But, since healthcare is a right, I guess medical degrees have no value, correct? You're not using expensive equipment someone had to design, manufacture, and distribute as a PRODUCT. You didn't go to school for years to provide a SERVICE. Clearly you're just exploiting people using your evil money to exploit people. Why would a human being who provides a service be allowed to decide what their service is worth charging for rather than some hippie or politician who doesn't understand science/how much things cost/care about human life(yeah, I include the hippies in that last one, since part of their ideology is communism, and communists are pretty happy to brush aside the holocaust-level slaughter in the Soviet Union...)?
It's late and I lost my train of thought.
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Well, personal issues and being surrounded by extremists(yeah, I live in a place where I hear people demanding we betray Israel, demand you vote for a certain party in the school newspaper(this is BEFORE the Trump drama really got started), and protesting the medical concept of obesity as a form of discrimination). So I'm not really that...fair.
nobody is. and those who show good feelings and good intentions are the last of them (including me :3). at least you are coherent with yourself.
In general I feel the idea of people not being able to support themselves is an economic issue, and not a social one.
things should be contextualized, but yes I think its an economic problem too, but the solution of the problem for me lie in the social wellfare. the gap between rich and poor, between those who have nothing and those Who have too much, the concentration of much of the world's wealth in the hands of a few, which in most of the cases is not earned but inherited, with the most that can happen is crumbs of that heritage to fall among the lowest classes of society. all problems inherent in a capitalist system taken to the extreme.
I feel a greater focus on educating people "smarter not harder" with less repetitive and long/social classes that expand on the skilled students and give bored kids something to focus on other than grades(did you know learning itself can be fun when teachers stop trying to "make learning fun"?) and being "cool". Oh, and emphasis in IT, removing school tablets/decade old iMacs in favor of Chromebooks(that's a whole other article, though), replacing expensive textbooks(especially science books, they basically cost as much in ink(diagrams and photos all over) as just having a screen display all the books anyways), etc. Oh, and regulate sports team spending so they can't get a ton of donations, blow them all on a stupid inflatable, then run around taking all the other teams' money(robotics is funded partly by the auto teacher) because they spent thousands of dollars on a custom inflatable instead of equipment...
can not disagree with that. here lately we are having a slow (very slow and uneven between regions, tbh) "technologization" of the education. but the entire system overhall remain the same, and I doubt it will ever change (for the better, at least)
What I'm saying is, we're better off the more tools we give people to actually support themselves with more important jobs in IT and the like instead of literally rioting because burger defrosters can't support their families and buy the newest iPhones for some reason, and making education cheaper should actually be about reducing costs and time, modernizing the bleep out of things(would probably be cheaper when the management stops doing whatever drugs they're on, too, who's in charge of this train wreck?), and emphasizing actually being intelligent over participation ribbons and just letting kids "be social".
I guess it helps to give some background as to why I think making people smarter is more important than spending more money:
My mother's family were refugees from Cambodia, they came to the US, worked hard to catch up with their educations(turns out you don't learn much being forced to grow rice by the commies), then got a bunch of money from real estate and medical degrees.
kudos do that. the iphone stuff is an hyperbola though, and these guys arent the poverty at all, are only by-product of a nihilistic and ultra consumerist society, all cool and fancy blink to fill the void of theyr spirit. poverty in all its crudeness and brutality is another matter, and although an education system focused to develop and reward intelligence, culture, critical and conscious thought (which NOT makes you a leftist ... if someone out there is wondering) improve the civil society in its integrity by placing a base to be better human beings and aware of themselves and the world they live in, but it wont help if the problem is at the basis of hour own society. intelligence and degrees wont feed you if there isn't a job to put your skill into practice. be it because of bad policies, be it becuse of lack in job right, of uncontrolled immigration, of excessive industrialization (beware the 3d printers. when they will be cheaper and affordable even for low and mid companies the bubble will grow even more), or the lack of request for one specific job in a contry market. and even having a good job might not help if living standards are too high and living just costs too much in proportion to how much is earned (here i can talk about the currency change we had back in 2002. the cost of goods almost doubled while salaries remained the same with theyr converted value in euro). what I am saying is that there just arn't enough "better jobs" for everyone of us. there are already enough lawyers, bookkeepers and such, and the reqest for skilled workers is limited. meanwhile only a small percentage of the human population (less then 6% i think) knows how to raise a crop, and theyr middle age is around 50-60 years.
But, since healthcare is a right, I guess medical degrees have no value, correct? You're not using expensive equipment someone had to design, manufacture, and distribute as a PRODUCT. You didn't go to school for years to provide a SERVICE. Clearly you're just exploiting people using your evil money to exploit people. Why would a human being who provides a service be allowed to decide what their service is worth charging for rather than some hippie or politician who doesn't understand science/how much things cost/care about human life(yeah, I include the hippies in that last one, since part of their ideology is communism, and communists are pretty happy to brush aside the holocaust-level slaughter in the Soviet Union...)?
well no not. medical knowledge is one of the greatest achievements of humanity, and as such must be protected and valued as it deserves. doctors as carriers of medical knowledge should be considered load-bearing pillars of this society and treated with all due respect ... the same respect that should be reserved for those who, for economic and social deficiencies inherent in the society we live in, are forced to choose between eating and having access to medical care, perhaps prohibitive for their wallet. considering the healtcare a human right does not diminish its value, its the exact opposite (not sure if i got what you mean here)
but let me get this straight. a total privatized healtcare is despicable as much as its despicable a completely free-access one. a poor person who can not afford medical care he desperately need is bad as would be bad to see a man free to destroy his liver by drinking like a sponge for its entire life because hey, there is free healtcare! who cares! both are polar opposites carried to their extreme, and both are sick.
(yeah, I include the hippies in that last one, since part of their ideology is communism, and communists are pretty happy to brush aside the holocaust-level slaughter in the Soviet Union...)
even worst, despite being considered the good guys. don't get me started on the holocaust. i might become... detestable :3
brain melts
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By "you" do you mean me (creator of the topic)? (I can't really tell)
I am not trying to convey any message or opinion in this thread. I am literally asking the questions that were raised in the movie to the sg folks.
In other words: these questions aren't mine, they are Michael Moore's questions. I am just asking them to you guys.
Moore answers all these questions (that begin with with "should't") with 'yes'. And I figured there would be different opinions and views on these questions on sg. So I asked.
The title of the topic (granted) is a little bit clickbait-ish. My intention was not to make anyone angry, but in a sense a similar question is raised in the movie, so I didn't think the title was so inappropriate. Do you?
You're assuming everyone has the same beliefs and values in what they spend money on,...
I am assuming everyone has a different view/opinion/belief regarding all of these questions (regarding how to live ones life, spend money, and rule a country). That is exactly why I asked. I had the feeling that Moore had made a somewhat one-sided documentary. He did raise questions that (and I think this topic proves it) people around the world all think very differently about. Therefore discussing these questions is, I think, quite interesting.
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"also not enough about low-requirements high-pay options like machining and welding"
I disagree, we need stronger IT/engineering education, the manual worker is outdated here. We don't need more manufacturing jobs, we need more highly educated people. Then again, machiners and welders still have more utility than say, a cashier at a McDonalds, so I guess making those an option couldn't hurt(my school doesn't even have shop classes).
Also, racism is a touchy issue, but yeah, that's for a reason, and maybe that's why we can't really work through it. I'm either reminded I should be ashamed of being white(well, partly white), that I should then overcompensate and completely shun the other half my ancestry/family, or that I should probably run away from people with visibly different culture or appearance to me to avoid being offensive or racist. The important thing is to realize we have these biases and to really consider the reasoning, or lack of reasoning behind them. At the very least, we should try to avoid being destructive, and more ideally to communicate more openly with people of varying cultures and groups.
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Yeah, I think we can agree on that.
I'm agreeing this early on a political thread on the internet? AFTER Trump's election?
Thank goodness sane people are left, please send help before the Cascadia revolution thing happens and the entire region descends into madness....
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It's topics like this that remind me most people do not study history. (To their folly)
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I don't see why we should't. American culture is all around us and thus America gets a lot of media attention. Most people can watch Moore's documentary because it is in (American) English. I am quite interested to know how people think about such matters in say China or Russia, but it is, I think, difficult to find English documentaries about these countries.
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I am not an US Citizen, I think it could be better, but i watched the first 10 min of this documentary and, even if what is told is true, they forgot to tell things... the guy is a police officer, if it's like most countries of europe, he's a working for the state and it provide benefits that private companies don't provide... They also forgot to tell that even if we have paid holidays, salaries are much more taxed than in usa....
For exemple here in belgium the u have at least 20 days of paid holidays a year and a basic healthcare (but you still have to pay for), you can have a 13th month if the company you working for grants it to you. But it's all taxes related, if you earn a salary for example 1500euros you'll only get 1250euros and your employer have also to pay additional charges to employ you (around 30% of the 1500 euros). So while you earn 1250 euros, your employer have to pay almost 2000 euros... So yeah waw working in europe seems nice compared to the us, but we are highly taxed and have a fucking high unemployement rate, and help for people that are unemployed decrease year after years because it's fucking expensive for employers to employ people comparing to asking more work from them...
Well, i'm going to watch the end of the movie, but in 10 min with a poor example of high middle class italian nice couple, i'm not sure if it can really be reprenstative of what's happening here in europe...
edit: and u can't find good french fries in france.... it's a belgian speciality!
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i'm italian and the only good thing done by Obama is health care..nothing more..i blame TPIP ow what ia it..and Libia war, all the problems with clandestine immigration is now on our shoulder...and we have ademocratic government that speculate on clandesrini immigration..spending 4,5 bilions for them and 1 bilions in 3 years for poor italias..that's not good at all. we 'r full of clandestine and ofc Americans military and intelligence bases--sry bad english
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As a European, I can safely say I couldn't care any less about the USA. They're clueless on so many matters, it's just unbelievable. Their political system, their healthcare, their governments, their state laws, they're all bad, disorganized, and often archaic at best.
I don't live there, so I don't care.
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If we can ever rid ourselves of corrupt politicians and corporate bribes and get politicians back to being public servants earning a meager wage i think we would have a shot at getting some people into office that actually have good intentions instead of most of these money/power hungry criminals we have in office now.
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I'm not from 'Murica, but watch this video and you will know how I feel about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1mlCPMYtPk
Top kek.
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I kinda liked the end of the movie, but the thing is that they only take the best stuff that are different than other countries... It takes shortways to send a message to americans, yes maybe some stuff needs to change but it doesn't mean it will be better...
for exemple free education, yeah, nice idea, but here in my country beside that we still have a high rate of unemployment even for youth, prisons are also overpopulated mostly by immigrant related people (even 2nd and 3rd generation).
I could give so many exemple but it would requires me much time to explane and be really understood as i just know basic english and it's a very complex subject that even here in my country we're not agreeing with all those subjects...
I just want to say also, that I admire the portuguese situation about drugs, because it's effective, i worked in an association about that and it's obvious after years and years of prohibition that that is a shitty solution for so many reason..
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This is a subject matter imo thatshould not be a topic on a forum giving the trouble it will and could stir up.
That being said there is nothing wrong with America as that is a Country,so with that being said there is nothing wrong with America in of itself but the some of the things that occupy America that are the problem.
Also asking if America would ever change or get better is just silly in of itself giving that means you are talking about everyone and saying that the whole of America is bad.If that is the case the the whole world is doomed because every Country/Nation has bad apples.
I would like to also add how so many point out how stupid America is and the leaders and blah blah yet tons of people want to come here yet we are so terrible.Usually the norm is to avoid the bad so if we are that bad then why do so many want in our country stop visiting us if we are so doomed.
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Has anyone seen this movie by Michael Moore called 'where to invade next'?
https://www.justwatch.com/ca/movie/where-to-invade-next
https://gowatchit.com/watch/movies/where-to-invade-next-310266
https://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/4jqc3c/where_to_invade_next_2016_documentary_by_michael/d3a0ujt/
I don't know how I feel about this documentary. Does mr. Moore exaggerate America's troubles? Is Moore's optimism at the end of the movie still (since this movie is from 2015) justified? Isn't Michael Moore creating too pretty of a picture of Italy, France, Finland etc?
Why do you think the majority of Americans are against socialism and higher taxes (all across the board)? Are they really though?
Do you think Trump will stop Obama care? Should he? or Should't he?
This movie raises/discusses questions like:
Should't college be free? Should't people get paid holidays? Should't prisons be focused on getting prisoners back to society (rehabilitation rather than punishment)? Should't women be paid just as much as men? Should't kids get proper food in school (considering the amount of obese kids)? Should't healthcare be paid by everyone, so its affordable for all? Should't sex education be focused on contraception in stead of abstinence. Should't schools give less homework for kids to be able to socialize and process what they have learned? Should't it be forbidden to let prisoners do work for less than minimum wage? Is it true America is still so incredibly racist? Why? And will any of this ever change?
Can America change for the better? or is it just doomed forever? :)
Edit: Just to make sure. I am not trying to convey any message or opinion in this thread. I am literally asking the questions that were raised in the movie to the sg folks.
plz be nice to one another in the comment section.
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