After the hype has died down, do you consider Skyrim shallow or not?(Poll Requires Games to Vote)
It's sadly an example of gaming being dumbed down to get a wider audience, Fallout 4 has it too. I think both games are still fun imo, but two more games in both series and they will be unrecognizable as TES and Fallout games.
I'd love devs to do something like KoToR did, just have an auto level option for those not wanting to deal with all the options, or a simple mode for them, some of us really like stat min maxing.
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If you combine skill trees, the buff is significant: +100% from item skill tree (or a lot more for weapons if you play stealth), +a big stat increase if you use smithing (+ alchemy and enchanting), +another big stat increase from enchanted equipment. The only tree that feels un-needed is destruction since it barely increases the damage and you can get 100% magicka cost reduction from equipment. I think that the perk system is fine overall.
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Yeah, but a perk system isn't good just if you get x% boost to damage.
Look at New Vegas for example. Animal Friend made the wilderness not attack you or on the second level made them fight with you when attacked. Or Friend of the Night, which gave you low-light vision or Long Haul which allowed you to fast travel even when over encumbered. See, these are perks. The 25% extra damage is a buff which, while technically a buff is just a cheap upgrade. It has no depth and it's just like a checkmark that they ticked off when adding the most uninspired perks.
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Well, think of it this way: you have all the skills unlocked from the start (with few exceptions like slow-mo arrows, dual channeling spells, blocking spells with the shield or bow zoom), but you have to actually level them in order to be useful. Also, in combination with shouts and spells, you have a broad range of "active skills".
For example, imagine that the finishing moves are possible to do from level 1 instead of needing the decapitation perk to use them. Same with stealth killing, picklocking, being able to brawl while in heavy armour, being able to dual wield, healing yourself and so on. Instead of not being able to use them if you are not the correct class (like in other games), you can use them but a lot less efficiently.
Some of the perks are not useful indeed, but overall I think Skyrim's system is quite cool because I could roleplay through all the big questlines with one character: using stealth methods and gear on Dark Brotherhood, playing as a warrior with the companions, being a mage for the college - all these with a single character which is more or less proficient at different tasks, instead of being the warrior who bashes everything because he cannot pick locks or the mage who burns everything because he cannot use big shields or whatever.
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+1 for stealth mage, my dream class, never got to play it properly since I always end up as a sneak bow/dagger 1 hit assassin. But Skyrim's perk system allows you to be a bow/dagger sneak assassin conjurer in heavy armor if you're patient enough.
Though heavy armor is useless late game, I got max armor on light, and even with the heavy armor perks, light armor still beats that.
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Well, there are similar things in Skyrim. Especially in the archery and stealth trees, they completely change the gameplay.
I personally hate adding points to STA INT STR DEX, it ruins the immersion and turns a RPG into a strategy game. If games added perks automatically based on some kind of achievements (headshot a deer, get some boost to archery). Mount and Blade kind of does this, a headshot with a low level in archery can make the next headshot twice as easy, but that's 100% stat based. (well, stats just make gameplay easy, they don't really boost damage that much)
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I agree, damage bonuses like that should just happen with leveling, same goes for the wasted perks in Fallout 4 to level up specific weapon types.
There was nothing wrong with the stats system in oblivion, enchanments are even further nerfed, never played it, but they were apparently amazing in Morrowind, which I never played. The odd removal of custom magic baffled me as well.
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Couldn't agree more. I certainly do not like at all, the direction these franchises have taken... It's like a U turn.
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Yeah, I know what they are thinking, they want to please everyone. Based on their behavior, I don't think it's only to make more money, like some think. If it was, they'd be half assing the worlds more as well, but they aren't. So, I think they just thought people wanted a simpler experience. People were reasonably acceptant of Skyrim, but Fallout 4 got a ton of flak for it's lack of side content, insanely simple perks, and the limited conversation options, and based on some responses, I think they realize they need to back of this idea. Here's hoping Fallout 5 and TES6 will be amazing. ESO certainly is not the TES we need XD
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I do use mods. But far far less of them than I did with Oblivion. I find the gameplay in Skyrim pretty good - that is, not shallow. Sure, you can trap yourself into grindy behavior - like looting every single lootable container and body and selling things for one gold piece. But that stops being fun, so don't do it. Loot selectively and discriminate.
The leveling system is pretty good. Sure, the perk trees are a little funny, some of them. That's the biggest area I have mods for - adds some depth to the gameplay by fixing the perk trees.
Plot? Well, parts are great, parts are shallow. But enough parts have some substance to keep me interested. They are about at the level of old Star Trek episodes. Some are quite silly. But some are pretty nice. You ahve to view the plot in tiny discrete pachages like TV episodes.
I'm done talking about this now.
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looting every single lootable container and body and selling things for one gold piece.
Ah, those Morrowind memories. :)
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In Morrowind that feeling was a first and the amount of freedom in it in combination with the graphics for the time was simply bonkers. Great memories. None of the next games surpassed that feeling imo, or perhaps it's just the fact that an original game is always amazing and is what is remembered in the end, while all the next ones that simply copy it and do more of the same, feel incredibly bland and unoriginal.
I could never bring myself to like Oblivion or any games since then from this franchise. Only Morrowind.
The same is more or less true for the fallout games too, though it's a bad example/comparison, because the problem with the fallouts is that they took a full tactical pure party rpg with amazing depth and changed it into a simple but beautiful FPS shooter. And they just kept doing that till it became worse and worse in terms of true depth. No serious developer would ever do such a thing to their franchise, if they valued their fans that loved those games for what they were.
I don't have a problem with making a different genre game. Go ahead, do as many as you like. But I DO have a problem when they keep a franchise name and take advantage of it to sell something completely different (that actually happens to be plain bad for a pure rpg tactical player in this case) You can't expect to make me satisfied as a customer when you use a great RPG name, to make an FPS. You simply fail.
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Yeah, for better or for worse I've never played a Fallout game and barely played Oblivion or Skyrim at all. I don't have the former and I didn't make time for the latter. Someday, backlog-permitting.
Thanks for your post.
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Good and bad changes from Oblivion. I still liked it.
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I quite enjoyed Skyrim. Modless. Yes it was pretty repetitive in most quests, and the grind to level your tradeskills was abysmally dull, but the combat I found simple yet effective, some of the DLC was fun (I liked building 3 different housing complexes), and I enjoyed slapping a good 200 odd hours into it.
As a matter of fact, I recently started a new character, (A Two handed Warrior type this time) and am finding more quests that I missed the first 2 times around.
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I guess with the combat it feels as if you're smacking a training dummy with a book or something, since there's no real reaction to them being sliced up like a piece of ham. Same with the surrendering system. They always just jump back into fighting like nothing happened.
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Crap game, but since Bethesda support the mods community very good, the game will never be dead.
SOrry for my English !!!
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Not exactly a mess, but lacks a kind of depth. Dialogues got cut extremely short, and most of the quests are flavoured fetch quests (except Guild + Daedra Prince quests, ofc) and while the game has an immense lore, partially presented in the form of books, a dissonance is created - TES has a great backstory, the guys at Bethesda are really good at environmental storytelling (setting up a scene for a past event, visual clues) but they are terrible at writing on a bigger scale. Also, it's astonishing how the world doesn't react to you (guards playing jokes on the ebony armored guy, Thane of the Hold and Killer of Dragons) - on the other hand the game also doesn't have anyone with a meaningful personality, they are just functioning characters in the game.
In my opinion is absolutely not a good game - a really enjoyable one, especially when modded to fit one's taste. The recent reviews of Fallout 4 reanimated my fears of bethesda's oversimplification, which was a huge hit at the gutting of the original TES skill system.
(Also, I will never shut up with this: fuck Bethesda's bulletsponge pseudo-difficulty levels. So hard to find proper mods for any of their games that makes the main character AND enemies as well vulnerable. It's just ridiculous and sad when I make a pincushion out of a simple, light-armoured bandit who in turn can 2-hit kill me with a generic sword. )
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Yeah, Guilds and Daedra were a real gem to play. But I started thinking whether they were so good because of the other quests being fairly bland or whether it was because they were actually great and I think it's a mix of both, since the Sheogorath quest could've had more detail added to it, since it boiled down to three puzzles with some narration that was in most cases known for everyone or were actually kind of pointless even though there were more important holes waiting to be filled.
TES has an amazing lore, yeah.
And yeah, Bethesda are going the easy route in my opinion. They should take Obsidian into the bunch and make Fallout great again! (Nice Trump joke amirite ;D)
Also, I can't help but look at Fallout 3 and just cringe at the fake moral choices that they gave us. It really feels like a total lie. The idea of be Jesus or be Hitler is kind of annoying, since I'd love to actually get a choice in the game. Not the "Blow up a nuke or don't" options.
And the combat has never been a strong suite with Bethesda even though they still won't understand.
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Yeah, but if you want to role play then isn't it just easier to play Fallout 1&2 or Morrowind. The games that actually had roleplaying features attached to it? I really can't think of a single RPG element that Skyrim has and most RPG-lite games don't. Extremely basic choices, no consequences for anything, no proper perk system, no proper difficulty system and so on. The only good thing I can think of is the proficiency system, which was fun, since you were able to improve after using the actual skill.
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I think Artki is talking about "real" Roleplaying, wich means that a big part of the game plays out in your own fantasy. Thats something the Elder Scrolls series always was great for.. and the "extremely basic choices" are actually a very important part of it, because the more specific your choices and dialogue-options get, the less room there is for your own interpretation. Its similar with the "no consequences".. a good system with consequences for your actions is always a plus, no matter if you are roleplaying or "just playing" the game, but the more you roleplay, the less it bothers you, because your character has his own ambitions and a conscience (wich you, as a player, usualy don´t have when playing a game).
Basic example: In a game with no negative consequences for stealing, you just grab everything you need without thinking twice. But with actual roleplaying, you will think about who you´re stealing from and if its the right thing to do, no matter if the game punishes you or not.
Bethesda always tries to find a balance to make a game fun for "normal players" and "roleplayers" alike, thats why some parts might seem bland and shallow for normal players, but actualy work as a canvas for the imagination of roleplayers.
Skyrim is far from perfect, but compared to Oblivion, its a huge step in the right direction.
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its certanly not Bethesda's greatest, oh wait, on sales it is, so who cares, certanly not Bethesda, and seeing how, by its DLC and mods, Fallout 4 has become more of a glorified minecraft than a RPG dont expect any change any time soon.
on the note of skyrim there are some touches of greatness or even brilliant ideas, like the new leveling system, i like that i can switch at any time and become a great archer after being a swordsman without having to create a new character, but for the most part everything feels son flimsy put together, as in they made the engine and the world and then tried to filled it with stuff, just stuff...
My biggest personal problem with it is the uninspired world, everything has that "gamy" feel to it, and nowhere feels more "gamy" than the dungeon design, my illusion of disbelief and immersion are ruined the second you start noticing the clearly linear design of almost 99% of the dungeons, the conveniently placed exits, boss rooms, incredibly simplistic "puzzles", and the silly traps...
And second the way the story line was designed its just baffling to me, i cloud explain it but bunnyhop made a great video about it
I want to like skyrim so so much but those things take me out so fast....
IMO Morrowind was Behesdas greatest work, for many reasons, the lack of a minimap or arrow pointing you where to go is the one i like the most, because i love getting lost in these beautiful handcrafted world, and using written indications or figuring out the world to find something or someplace can be really rewarding, i dont like that in skyrim and i dont like that in almost any game, i want to live your world in a natural way why are game designers and videogamers so eager to beat a game like is some sort of race and then tried to pass it as "modern" game design, every game now has that dotted line even some games feature several of them, its just lazy, because level design is hard and its just easy to point an arrow to somewhere and make the player follow it like a mindless trained dog.
My advice? find other games.. xd recently felled in love with Dark Souls, the depth and character Skyrim lacks DS has in spades, the world is comparatively tiny, probably is smaller that the starting area of Skyrim but so far i spendt more that 5 times the time on DS 1 as i have on Skyrim, and most of my time on skyrim was spendt modding xd
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Yeah, you're very right. The videos were really interesting as well. One thing I don't agree with is the skill thing, since all of TES games have the chance to become a pro at multiple weapon trees. While yeah, it's good, it's still doable in the previous games too. I usually never applaud a game for doing what it already did before. It's good that it's there, but it's nothing new.
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I never understood the hate for Skyrim, it almost seems like people go out of their way to hate it. I remember reading a comment on Twitter where a guy said he hated it and when asked why he said there was a deer eating grass where there was no grass...WHAT?! I do think they dumbed the game down compared to older Elder Scrolls games but I still enjoyed it, it is one of my favorite games. There are plenty of flaws I admit but in my humble opinion it is still a great game.
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I don't think it's hate in all honesty. Most people who criticize the game look at it objectively. Look at the combat for example. It's simple as all hell. Swinging your cereal box at an enemy gets boring after a while. A shallow story is not really ok if you have an amazing lore to use. A dumbed down skill system isn't good enough if you're claiming to be an RPG. The basic difficulty system makes no sense either (20 hits on a mudcrab but 1 hit on me?). Also, the extremely flawed pathfinding. The AI, which doesn't do anything interesting to make the game fun. The enemies will maybe move one or two steps back and forth. Surrending enemies always lie and attack you in 5 seconds. The horrible ending which sounds like a 90s TV Special with a message of "Friendship will always win ^^" and in all honesty, I understand the antihype now, since people have started seeing the flaws with Bethesda.
Do I hate the game? Hell no! But it's obvious that the game is extremely flawed and the reason why it's praised to high heaven is because of mods and good past experiences and the gameplay hours racked up without looking at the amount of quality hours to actual hours.
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It's both. There are a ton of secrets and neat things tucked away for people who explore, but the plot itself is completely shallow and almost feels optional. Whether or not you like that kind of thing is up to you. Personally, I love running around finding weird stuff in odd corners of the map. But if you want a cohesive story or a lot of NPC dialogue, yeah, you're going to hate it.
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Yeah, it feels like a base of a really good game. It's like GMod in some respects. You have a playground with some basic aspects and now the mods are supposed to come in and fix the issues that it has. It feels lazy and kind of arrogant in all honesty.
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I really like it , first in xbox 360 without mods , and now using mods, I can totally change my game , not making a different one , but a more challenging. Story mods are awesome too , and well graphics ... I think is a game that not last because every time you play it there's something new about it (and for new I mean that you can change abilities , races.(talking about game without mods) ) and with mods I think we all know that almost everything is possible. My mods are some shadow ones , and texture , new armours and weapons, mission ones and the thing that I like most is the survivals(you need to drink , to rest , eat , boil water , dont eat raw food , cold , etc..) So for me is a great game!
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Changing races does nothing in Skyrim - few different skills and that's it.
Compare that to, hmm, Pillars of Eternity, where some quest-lines are only available to specific races.
Which is why people say Skyrim is shallow. For example, joining-rebels quest-line should be much-harder for Elves since Stormclocks are, well, racists and should think you are a spy.
It is good game. But very weak and shallow RPG.
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Now, I agree with the word content, but it's important to look at the word itself. Yeah, there might've been 300 hours of content. Maybe even 600 hours, but the question is whether the content was of good quality. If I made a game that had the same fetch quest but with a different context around it for 10,000 hours, does it mean it's good content? Sometimes less is more and quantity doesn't always equal quality, since it was always one of these quests:
Now, it can be entertaining, but how much of it is actual quality content?
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for me the world itself is perfect since i enjoy exploring (that's why i like risen and arcania). i don't remember quests being boring either, of course there's filler content like "kill 100 wolves and bring back their furs" but even witcher 3 has some of those.
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yeah, most RPGs do, its just kind of silly how this extensive world filled with complex characters and politics and what not is 9 times out 10 solved with some dungeon crawling or just killing someone.
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Shallow, but it's not a terrible game. Rather just a bad RPG game.
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Wonderful setting, very atmospheric, and a lot of fun to play. One of the single-most immersive games out there.
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Not an unpopular opinion in all honesty. I can get into Bethesda games pretty easily, but the problems come when I need to actually think of the game itself objectively.
With the release of Fallout 4, gamers have noticed Bethesda and what they're trying to do. Casualising games and lazy game design, since they seem to rely on mods to fix the game.
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I don't think it's a terrible game, but I miss Morrowind style worlds which are a little weird and original; on the other hand, Skyrim is a fairly vanilla Nordic fantasy setting that I've tromped through in various other games (with some innovations or unique elements, but really nothing weird or "fantastic" to have my mind blown by). In light of The Witcher 3, Skyrim just falls a bit short in terms of games that I would like to spend time exploring.
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I would never call it shallow. The perk system is wonderfully done, and the different types of armor and spells are great. I remember min/maxing to get schools of spells completely free to cast forever ago, it was just so fun messing with enchantments and making my own perfect armor. Add in some optional stuff like werewolf/vampire abilities and dragonshouts, and it's impossible to say the game is "shallow". Maybe it doesn't let you min/max every single thing like attacks speed and such, but that's fine. Even before the free mods, Skyrim has a ton of content, and there's plenty to do in it.
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what if i told you, that on previous games you could create your own spells and potions, and you could put any of the effects to objects in the game, so you could have shoes that allow you to fly and then a robe that removes fall damage, or put the soul of a fallen god on a pair of slippers, or a sword that will paralize the enemy and heal you with every hit. Then you start seeing the shalowness of all.
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What if I told you, that the previous games look very ugly, and it doesn't matter what they have?
Also, what you just said is pretty much worthless when talking about Skyrim, since it doesn't make Skyrim any more shallow. You're basically saying "A 100 ft pool is shallow because I've seen a 120 ft pool before!", except that you're ignoring the 120 ft pool is disgusting and filthy at this point. Skyrim isn't shallow, unless you're seriously trying to tell me that any game that isn't the most complex game of all time is instantly shallow. It has a great perk system, a great armor system with enchantments and such, it has all of the special abilities like the dragon shouts and lycanthropy and vampirism, tons of spells and weapons, and mod support. That isn't shallow.
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At first I wasn't sure about Skyrim's 'streamlined' RPG system. It still bothers me a bit how much they removed (even more so in Fallout 4...), but since Morrowind I don't really play Betheda RPGs for the RPG elements. It's about exploring the world. This is where Skyrim really improves on the earlier games (yes, including Morrowind in my opinion). The quest lines aren't that 'deep', but I had fun with a lot of them and except for the abysmal radiant quests most of them are not very repetitive. Skyrim is a great open world game with some RPG elements.
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It's a bit weak, but fun and addictive. Has a shitload of content and lots of exploring, so I like it.
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In my humble opinion, Skyrim is shallow and a great example of how Bethesda should never make an open-world RPG alone. The endless bugs, the underwhelming DLC (except Dragonborn), the horrible combat and the uninspired quests. There obviously are more problems, but since I'm tired, I can't put them all down.
The main thing is that while yeah, this stuff can mostly be fixed with mods, it shows how lazy and careless Bethesda are.
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