Star Trek Discovery = amazing
Actually most of STD feels like SJW shit. Waiting for the new Picard series.. i am a Trekkie since the 90s.
I don't like Saru either.. wouldn't miss him.
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so were are really referring to it as STD? sexually transmitted disease. :o
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Never fails to amaze me how people who profess their love for Star Trek are talking SJW and other neo-con BS.
How have you managed to grow to love Star Trek while missing that it was a left leaning political show all this time, from the Original show all the way down?
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The very first interracial kiss on TV was on Star Trek. It was also among the first shows to put a black woman in a position of importance, to the point where, when Nichelle Nichols was planning to quit the show, MLK Jr. personally implored her not to quit because of what her character could do to further the cause of social justice for both black Americans and women.
It doesn't get much more SJW than that!
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It was a fight for social justice. The term SJW wasn't around, but it was the same concept. Instead of fighting for equal rights for gays, trans people, the poor, and other disadvantaged groups, it was a fight for equal rights for African-Americans and women (not to suggest that those groups have yet achieved equality).
And those that fought for black rights back then got just as much hate for seeing black people as deserving dignity as today's SJW's get for seeing other disadvantaged groups as deserving dignity. (MLK Jr. himself was almost universally hated by white folks until he'd been dead for quite some time. Only then did they retroactively like him and agree with him, and pretended that they agreed with his SJW ideas all along).
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STD feels way better if you watch it while pretending that everyone else is Vulcan. At least that way it explains the stiffness, wooden acting and zero chemistry between the cast
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i haven't watched it yet, just got season one from library. i don't have high hopes after all the negative reviews. and what the hell with the Klingons? hope they have some good reason. don't spoil it.
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I watched the first few episodes of season 1. It just didn't feel like Star Trek at all. Part of me wants to give it more of a chance, but this isn't encouraging. From what I saw I largely agree what others have said regarding getting to know all the characters, personality, etc.
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It gets better. When I watched the pilot, my thought was "okay, this has promise as a Sci-Fi show, but it's so far from being Star Trek that I just have to see it as its own thing." It was about bombast an action, and didn't focus on the humanistic ideals and complex storytelling that Trek had always been known for (even when it failed in those aims).
It slowly gravitated toward those ideals throughout Season 1, though, and focused much more on them in season 2... even if it did end with a bombastic action scene that felt atypical of Trek in many ways (not just the focus on action, but the character of the action itself was, while probably much more like what a space battle would be in reality, very much unlike anything we've seen in Trek series before).
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The second season has some really deep-cut references to The Original Series, which is pretty cool.. But without offering any spoilers, I'll say that the second season ends in a manner that may no longer allow them to have many tie-in with existing Star Trek lore, and the TOS stuff that's so cool in the 2nd season will not continue in the 3rd and beyond (unless they change the show's direction again, which is always possible).
It's not perfect by any means, but I've really enjoyed it, and I'd say I started enjoying it as a viable Star Trek show about half-way through the first season.
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Season 1 was mediocre. Season 2 began interesting though they overburdened it with too many too unrealistic events. But the second half of this season has been a terrible joke. There is no logic to be found, either in minor/personal events or in the greater story arc.
The show got so emotional that it's a real burden by now. Just check the most recent episode. 70% of the episode was about speeches full of pathos and lots of weeping. Story progress? What story progress?
On top of that the actors fall apart when they get all emotional. I swear, I can't endure seeing the ever same facial expressions of Stamets or Burnham, when they must show empathy.
Last but not least, I could forgive them doing Star Trek differently. If their way of story telling would result in something great. But they aren't even close to achieving something good.
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The season finale ties the events together in a way that's quite logical, even if it's a bit of a mindbender with respect to the questions of paradox that it creates.
Regarding pacing, I actually feel like the pacing is really fast. The filming pacing is much faster than shows typically were even just a few years ago, and SOO much faster than when Star Trek was previously a staple on television. The last two episodes slow the plot timescale pacing down, but only because so much is happening at once, and it goes back to more of an action-focus.
I'm hoping that they've set the third season up to be even more character-driven than the second season, to make it feel more like Star Trek, and less like an entirely different sci-fi franchise. But no one but the writers know where they'll actually take it...
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It's just sad to say it but yeah, Discovery feel awful most of the time. Michael is unlikeable, spend 90% of her time bitching, disrespecting the chain of command and being overly emotional. The only good highlight of the show was the mirror universe, even with caricatural baddies that was still better than this crew.
With disco i'm usually wearing a pokerface, occasionally yelling "shut up!" at the screen when michael goes emotional.
But the Orville? Classic TNG recipe, self containing episodes with a some ongoing light plots, good mood. It's simply great.
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I've seen every Star Trek show ever made, every movie ever made and also books and comics. Discovery is by far the worst thing I ever saw. From the casting to the main storyline, from the unlikeable main character (and a main character is a terrible idea for a Star Trek show) to the lamest crew ever assembled.
The only mystery here is why it wasn't canceled already.
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What is there to discuss with someone who's made up their mind that it's "by far the worst thing [they] ever saw"? The fans can tell you what we like about it, but what would be the point? So you can tell those people how their opinions are wrong, that any positives they see are clearly outweighed by the flaws you've identified, that their taste is crap and they're not true Trek fans? I suspect you don't want to "talk about the show", you want to lecture people about how "this is bad and you're bad for liking it".
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Ah, so you suspect. I didn't play the "true fan" card, that's what you just brought to the table to encircle my opinion inside some fanhood entitlement. But that's also expected in any discussion. There are only 3 types of opinions or tastes about anything: Like it, dislike it and don't care. And while that is subjective since every person can take any of those stances for several reasons, there's always a consensus you can get when you have a majority of subjective opinions leaning in one direction, that's when you reach objectivity.
A movie, for instance, becomes a classic and a gem when more people like it than not. Then you analyze why more people like it than people that dislike it, that's when you get to the details like the cast, the direction, the script, the music... etc. Then you look for other similar cultural products and compare those to see if they share the same traits that you assume make something valuable. After years, decades, of watching movies and verifying that those traits make people to like something more often than not then you transform the basic opinion into a critical opinion and that's when you have the parameters to have also, for instance, academy awards to the best pictures. Are there people that like bad stuff? Sure, but their opinion is pretty personal, hardly objective and is a niche opinion, like people that like movies that are "so bad that they are good".
Star Trek is a franchise that has been running for over 50 years. 32 seasons and plenty of spin-offs, movies, cartoons, comics, games, etc. There's plenty there to objectively make comparisons between Discovery to other products of the same franchise. My opinion comes from years watching stuff related to Star Trek. You might disagree, and you have all the right to do so, but if you feel threatened by someone's opinion cause that person probably might know more about that stuff than you, well, that's on you not me.
That said, Discovery is indeed superior to any season of Star Trek ever released in one aspect and one aspect only, IMO, the production value. The visuals are fantastic for a TV show and that surely make a lot of people to like that. There. I don't find any other aspect remotely close to what made Star Trek a cultural icon.
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Heh. You say you didn't play the "true fan" card, then you turn around and try to make a case for opinions being "objectively" right or wrong on the basis of how much Trek media you've consumed over the years. And I hardly feel "threatened" by your opinion. I've just seen this disingenuous song and dance from other people in the fandom enough times to be thoroughly tired of it.
I grew up watching TOS in reruns. I watched TAS on Saturday mornings, when Saturday morning cartoons were still a thing. Since then, I've watched every series, all of the movies, and read I don't know how many novels. I've played the videog games over the years, played and GM'ed the tabletop RPGs (starting with the original FASA TOS game), and followed production news behind the scenes before the internet was a thing. If you want to turn this into a pissing contest over which of us "might know more about that stuff" than the other, I'm pretttttty sure I'd win that one. The reason I /didn't/ lead off with that is because I don't think "fan cred" make my opinion any more valid than anybody else's, and it also comes off a little dickish. But seeing as it seems to matter to /you/, well, there you go.
So speaking from my perspective as an OG Trekker (lol), I feel Discovery is definitely entertaining and undeniably Star Trek. It has its flaws (pacing being the biggest one - I think they're still trying to find their footing when it comes to combining contemporary serialized storytelling with the Star Trek 'formula'), but that's been true of every Trek series. Even at its worst, Discovery hasn't given us a Threshold or a Spock's Brain. And Anson Mount's portrayal of Captain Pike has quickly made him of my favorite Starfleet captains. At least we're in agreement on the visuals.
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Aw, c' mon, man. You should know that objectivity is constructed that way in any aspect of human activity. Laws, codes, and rules are imposed when enough people think some conduct is nocive or undesirable, for instance. Same to establish the parameters of what is beauty, patriotism, good and evil, etc. And yes, experience and knowledge are what make an informed opinion. If you find that "dickish", I find that snowflekish. Besides, I didn't disregard any opinion based upon my "expertise". You're saying that. Yet, I don't need to pretend that I don't know anything about the matter. Discovery is not a Star Trek show to me, it's just some futuristic show that could be acceptable if not labeled as a Star Trek franchise and only if it improves a lot.
Nah, you're not tired of debating anything. There you're with a long-winded reply that shows otherwise. And don't forget, you're the one that got triggered by my comment and now you suggest there's a pissing match that is about... age? Well, I'm not a millennial or younger than that, so take your guess. So maybe you won, maybe you didn't. In any case, again, you brought the age to the table, not me. If you know your Star Trek subject, great, at least this little debate is not between a fan and someone that only watched the latest movies and just found out that this is a 5 decades franchise.
Finally, is irrelevant if I think, individually, it should be axed, it will come to ratings. People watching the show or not is what will objectively decide its fate. As with everything, that is what will constitute the consensus.
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From the bits & pieces of the very few episodes that I have watched, I never like any of the old Star Trek series. I found it to be hilariously bad & just full of cringe. However, Discovery would have to be my favorite show at the moment. I don't see what all the hate is about, & frankly, I don't care. I watch it for what it is & I enjoy it. Bring on season 3.
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I like Discovery BUT I hate the Michael Burnham character, I liked Sonequa Martin-Green in The Walking Dead but she is either struggling with this character or the writing is just horrendous, I'm leaning towards the latter because even the idea of effectively focusing the series on one character rather than the ship and its crew doesn't feel like true Star Trek to me. I've liked every series of Star Trek and enjoyed the movies but this series is a real struggle. I am currently catching up on The Orville and just tonight watched the two part episode Identity and in my personal opinion it is easily better than any episode I've seen in Discovery. It's a real shame too because the fans effectively destroyed the Enterprise series and we ended up with over 10 years with no new Star Trek series and when we finally get a return it is ruined by politics and poor writing. Star Trek has always been very left leaning but this series has gone off the deep end and it has seriously damaged the story line.
I was hoping this season would be an improvement over season one and it did start off well but it now feels so much worse, to then watch Orville and want to watch multiple episodes back to back like I used to do with other Star Trek series is really disappointing as I've never had that desire with Discovery, in fact many times I've struggled to stay awake. The special effects are incredible, I didn't even mind the changes to technology and the Klingons because frankly as technology advances to make these shows it is natural for them to adapt sci fi series to make them still look futuristic. But the writing to me is seriously coming up short and just doesn't hold my attention.
Having said all that, I will still continue to watch every episode of both series, I love sci fi and even though I've called Discovery bad I would rather watch it than more police/crime genre shows or reality tv. I hope they both get more seasons, I just hope Discovery changes its direction and gets some better writing and story lines so that I can really enjoy it rather than just persevering with it.
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The writing is horrendous.
Not that the writing in The Orville is any good but at least it has things that comfort people who didn't like Discovery for reasons.
As for Burnham, I think it's mostly that she's a Vulcan. They've never been front and center before and there's a reason for it. Vulcans are damn boring. The only reason Spock works is because he's there as a foil to the exuberant spontaneity of Kirk.
Also, when guys are Vulcan it's ok, because they're logical and rational and they struggle with their feelings, which a lot of guys can relate to, but when it's a woman, it just doesn't work. Women are better when they're soft and emotional, like Troi. </sarcasm>
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But she's not a Vulcan, she just spent some of her childhood raised by a half Vulcan family. Which results in a human character trying to pretend to be Human and Vulcan and it just doesn't work. You have a point too, being female makes it even worse as she's not able to get away with some of the things the viewer lets the actually half Vulcan Spock do. It's the same issue for an actor that Jaden Smith had to deal with in After Earth. How do you act a role when the role asks for no emotion? I think it's also the issue with Captain Marvel, either Brie Larson is a horrendous actress with 3 facial expressions (and I haven't seen any of her other work so have no idea) or the role called for limited emotion and it made the character horrendous to watch. In the end it also doesn't help that the character is also better than everyone else at everything and always put into situations where she can save the day by just being her standard awesome! that writing just doesn't work, Disneys Star Wars shows how it doesn't work.
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First season of Discovery I watched, but no.
Second Season I loved up till Episode 9 (character development needed for that ep should have been done over several eps, not shoehorned into the first half so you feel bad in the last part.
Then it just lost me. They tried to tie everything SOO tightly together it became a mess.
For example, and obviously spoilers :p
The Angel should have been not have been Michaels mom, but her decedent, from the USS Relativity-ish erra. Going back in time to prevent the disaster. This would kill my biggest issue in that the suite does stuff that even in the TNG erra they can't come close too.. namely stable Wormholes.. using Pre-TOS tech.
Control should have evolved naturally (not because of a Probe in a shuttle), and as it evolved not somehow gone full Borg but just give it an Android Leland body and such.
Time Crystals shouldn't be Klingon, but should have come from Species X, who have no lore baggage to try and shoehorn this new development into. Michaels parents shouldn't have been Section 31, but just scientists, maybe learned of the Time Crystals (but didn't have one) and cause of a fuckup by Leland, got killed by Klingons.. boom! Now he still has all the regret without making her parents put the future to shame.
Rather than Leland shooting the crystal have him shoot the decendent.. now you have the setup for the final ep where Michael needs to use the suit to set shit right.
Drones in the final battle.. fuck no. A few shuttles maybe since fighters apart from a few appearances in DS9 really aren't starfleets thing.. Just make the fleet defending them be a mix of some starfleet ships, maybe some Klingon cause they love a good battle, and the Queens people cause she said so :p
Also, find a better reason for the Admiral to die. Having a damn Shrink be the only person who could try to disarm a torpedo seemed a bridge too far. Also a blast door window shouldn't be able to take a torp blast at point blank.. also, we have transporters, close the bulkhead, beam away.. DUH.
We can still leave their fate up too season 3, but the end of 2 shouldn't have been some BS making it all classified.
The ship was "lost" defeating Control.. fine.
The Spore Drive is dead tech cause the federation banned genetic manipulation, ergo only Stamats could use it, hes done, so it dun work.
And Spock doesn't mention his sister for the same reason NEITHER of them mentioned his brother.
There, that in my view would have made Season 2 wrap up way better.
I don't mind Pike going away, we knew he would. Would love a new spinoff around him though.
I don't mind Number One going away cause she was always mysterious..
I think Saru can make a good captain with the right cast. Keeping Reno around is a MUST, her character is awesome. Keep the new security woman around cause why not, she already chose to stay with them rather than go back to the Enterprise, and she's different.. Bring in some other characters to keep the lightheartedness that Pike brought..
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"The Orville" is more Star Trek than "Discovery", nothing more to say... o/
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A bit in reply to https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/zIhLP/can-i-just-say-how-orville-grew-from-a-hard-to-place-comedy-into-a-really-amazing-sf-show-in-its-own.
I always followed both Orville and this, they always had their good and bad episodes, what i was missing in Discovery the first season it really just focused on the Michael character, while the older Star Trek's focused more on characters, they all had their personalities, their own episodes.
The second season seemingly became better and I even liked Captain Pike (he will become disfigured but not for another 10 years), and his number one, and it even had Spock this season, and i thought it would slowly grow into something nice.
But then to read those 3 will not return in season 3 and Saru will become the next captain, and maybe the Borg (and it's paradox)?
Personally i am not liking it one bit.
What you think?
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