Has anyone wondered or know from behind the scenes what happened with bundle sites?

Groupees is selling only music for ages, indiegala sells transformed into dailyindiegame, humble is worse and worse and sometimes are few months when there is good and not overpriced bundle. I would say that, surprisingly, fanatical has the most interesting indie games lately from time to time but their constant mystery things are really annoying.
I'm not even writing about other bundle sites which died after few tries.

Whose fault is this?
Ours because we don't pay for shop prices anymore? Epic because developers prefer free money for exclusive or those free games events? Big companies because they bought bundle sites? Or maybe nobody wants to be in a bundle anymore so there can't be bundles because there is no content?

ps. obligatory gift

2 years ago

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what?

View Results
globalisation
developers don't want to put game on bundle
greedy bastards a.k.a. big companies which bought bundles
thieves a.k.a. shady bundle sites which sold keys without agreement with devs
reptilians came and destroyed everything

I think it's a combination of many factors all playing against each other. At first they were a great way of exposing some indie games to the world. And these were top quality games. Then demand for more like it lead to more sites popping up with bundles, but there weren't enough quality games to fill all of those, so the quality of the games dropped along with the price gamers were willing to pay per bundle. At the same time our libraries were exploding, so it meant it was getting harder to find new games to entice buyers with, especially when developers were starting to realise that once a game was bundled there would be key resellers stocking up to sell their game at a hugely reduced price, and their own profits would suffer, especially if the bundle site had no checks in place. So more developers stopped putting their games on the smaller bundle sites.
While this explosion of bundles was happening, steam greenlight meant there was an explosion of new games on steam, many of which were poor quality and cheap, so it was easy for smaller bundle sites to fill bundles with these. But then steam started restricting the number of keys small developers could ask for and also stopped games from counting on achievements and game count, making these cheap games a lot less desirable for game collectors and the like.
Any one paying attention during the peak of the bundles era could see this coming, as it was just not a sustainable model. What started as a great idea, and which benefited all parties, quickly became a feeding frenzy of greedy gamers abusing the bundle sites for profit, greedy developers dumping their junky games and shady bundle sites stealing keys or not paying developers. Frankly I'm still amazed that we even get bundles of any sort of quality these days.

2 years ago
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Great answer, your comment contains everything i want to convey especially the last part xD

2 years ago
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lot of true in that, only one more thing, card farming days with making by devs fraud games for 1$ or put in multiply bundles or sending for free just to earn money from card market

2 years ago
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I have no idea how it was on golden age, I came back on PC games world just 1 year ago, and my feeling is that Fanatical and Humble still offer interesting bundles, even if it has been better by the past (if I understand) . To nuance, Fanatical platinum bundle doesnt hold my attention since months.

Otherwise, why "obligatory" gift? Is it a condition to open a debate? Anyway thanks

2 years ago
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Its not "obligatory" per se, but due to the nature of this site, this is a kind of custom here. While its a nice gesture in and of itself, it may also draw the attention of people to the discussion at hand. Granted, some only arrive for the GA and dont add to the conversation, maybe even the majority, who knows. But some may feel more inclined to put in their two cents, if they already clicked here, so its ultimately a way to attract people to the discussion.

2 years ago
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Fanatical and humble does still have bundles with great games in them, but Fanatical in particular suffers from the bundle repeat syndrome, where they'll often put games that have been bundled a lot in new bundles, which is hard to get excited over if you've already been buying a fare few bundles in the past, and humble rarely have bundles that make you really go "wow"!

Still, if you've not been a bundle addict, like many people on these sites have been for years (for some of us even over a decade!) the Fanatical bundles can still regularly be outstanding.

2 years ago
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mostly custom - cake day, bad rats or skyrim giveaway or GA in thread etc. fun things I'd say

2 years ago
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Deleted

This comment was deleted 2 years ago.

2 years ago
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Here: (https://www.reddit.com/r/humblebundles/comments/8xd4fz/how_humblebundle_created_the_bundle_market_and/)
The short answer, many bought a bunch of bundles only to sell their bundled key separately for profit which hurt the publishers' profit. Older bundled keys are still dirt cheap on key shop sites.

2 years ago
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Keyshops happened, and other grey market sites. Even steamtrades, that I use nonetheless, hurts bundle sites. People complain about IGN as some explanation, but the truth is Fanatical does rebundles all the time, and literally none of the other bundle sites matter. And it all happened after traders/grey markets sprung

2 years ago
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I agree with this entirely. It's not developers or bundle sites that are to blame, it's the people who started buying bundles to resell or trade that caused developers to stop putting their games into bundles. Why discount a game just to have people turn around and resell the keys for profit?

If we want to assign blame for the state of bundles, all of us need only look in the mirror.

2 years ago
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paraphrasing great man - amazing idea, only people are f...ed up

2 years ago
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Resellers. It wasn't enough that people got a bunch of games dirt cheap. Some had to turn a profit and ruined things for everyone else.

Aside from that, bundles also killed themselves. Once you see a game has been bundled, how likely are you to pay more for that game? This makes devs wary of bundling their games.

2 years ago
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Developers realized their games worth money. They are featured in bundles less, and if you check prices, many sales aren't as deep as they were a few years ago.

Groupees always was a small site and they likely made a few bad decisions.. more and more greenlight bundles, bundles with unknown games that started getting worse and worse, they were behind on delivering bundles after trying a "season pass" for Be Mine bundles.

Indiegala had and has some nice deals in the bundles, but for most of the time it always was for collectors and hoarders - getting many different games very cheap.

Fanatical and Humble had some drop in quality as well - Fanatical mostly due to repetition, Humble a lot in weekly bundles, and some in monthlies (They aren't surreal good deals, but usually good quality games at a good price). I was always curious how they get developers to get their games (that cost let's say $15, and are on sale for $6-7) in bundles that usually average out around $1-2/game.

Also... it's hard to make new and original games. Even through lovingly created by a small team, a 235th retro-inspired pixel-platformer with RPG elements isn't just the hit as similar games were 5-8 years ago.

edit: and of course as others said, resellers. Bundles themselves can be bought only for a while, but the keys persist on the market, usually way below the store's price.

2 years ago
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I still think that most gems which are published now are indie games. It's much harder to make one with only 1-2 man studio now but you can still see one hyped like Vampire Survivors (and it's not too original even) from time to time

2 years ago
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Greenlight and later Steam direct made it too easy for "developers" to release their junk on Steam. While we experience an avalanche of releases there aren't enough games which bundle sites consider marketable and customers are willing to pay for. Thus we have an increase in re-bundled games than new-to-bundle ones.

2 years ago
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A lot of reasons that come on all involved levels down to:
"People are greedy"

2 years ago
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^^^ Yep. And this is why we can't have nice things.

2 years ago
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"The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms — greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge — has marked the upward surge of mankind." - Gordon Gekko ;-)

2 years ago
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I disagree with the majority of his sentences.
To each their own.

2 years ago
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Neo-Liberalist economic theory in essence :)

2 years ago
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I think a lot of bundle sites failed/disappeared/got worse because it's usually always the same games being bundled, so once someone has them there's no incentive to buy any more bundles because they already own the majority of the games. You know the types of games I'm talking about.

2 years ago
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The signs were there from the early days that things were not going to last. But to understand why, a quick history lesson might be in order.

Humble bundle launched just shy of 11,5 years ago, and it was a smash hit. A small number of great indies crammed into a bundle sold at a price that was very hard to beat. These days we would probably consider Humble Indie Bundle 1 to be pretty mediocre, but when it launched it was something fresh and interesting, and discounts on Steam were not as high, or as frequent, as we would get used to either.

The developers who put their games in the early Humble bundles also reported great success. Not only did they earn a bit from the bundle, but their games also got a big indirect marketing push, as people were reporting on the bundle and about the nice games, and several developers stated that they saw a sharp increase in sales on Steam for months following the bundle. While the earnings from the bundle itself were nice, that was not were the true value of being in a bundle was.

With the success of humble other parties were taking note, and you got a bunch of bundles that were all trying their own spin on the formula. Buy games not Socks did a single bundle where you got 5 pretty good games for $5, Indie Royale did its weird community pricing where people paying over the base price would lower the price for everyone and Indie Gala were straight up copying Humble. While buy games not socks would only get a single bundle under its name, the other two would turn out to have some staying power (though Indie Royale would go down with the Desura ship, as it was owned by them). With new bundle sites popping up the indirect marketing push was becoming less and less of a thing though. With Humble Indie Bundle it was easy to stand out, because there were not that many other vying for attention, but now things were getting crowded. But things had not gone terrible yet, and bundles were selling well. In fact, at this point, for many smaller developers, bundles were really their best bet at earning money. This also coincided with an increase in discounts on steam, both in terms of frequency and size, as well as how soon they would happen. Now people in the industry were starting to take note of a worrying trend. Several developers were starting to talk about a "race to the bottom", and how the market was becoming unsustainable. They were basically training people to wait for steep discounts or bundles, and these were coming very soon after launch.

Steam was also changing. Greenlight opened up the possibility for a lot of developers who previous could not get their games on steam to start selling their games on the biggest PC digital distribution platform. And the bundle sites become a marketing tool for games wanting to get through greenlight. Groupees, Indie Gala and Indie Royale all went in on the Greenlight train. While Greenlight allowed for a bunch of really good games to reach a new market, the complete lack of quality control also meant that there was a lot of dreck. And people were voting for anything they thought they could get a steam key for, which meant that the Greenlight bundles were quickly filled with mostly junk games that would have no real chance of getting through greenlight on their own merit. Trading cards were the next thing to influence the bundle market in a major way. While in its early days Trading Cards were only available on a select few games that were given the thumbs up from Valve, this would change pretty soon, and Valve would allow any game to get trading cards. Bundles were starting to pop up that were only really catering to trading card farmers. A fare few bundle sites would go bust during this period, bundle sites that did not lean into the lucrative greenlight and trading card craze, that actually tried to have some semblance of quality (it was pretty tough for sites like Bundle in a Box to get much attention in such a crowded market). With so many actors on the market being in a bundle really meant nothing when it came to discoverability either, so the thing that that the indie developers who were in the early Humble Indie Bundles were reporting on was more or less gone at this point.

Parallel with this a big grey market was growing, where keys from bundles were starting to be sold. It was not something that happened overnight, of course, and really, key trading happened from the get go with bundles, but the grey market was becoming more organized and reliant on bundles. And now developers were starting to report that they were seeing a sharp drop in sales from the point where they added their games to a bundle. It was the exact opposite of what happened in the early days, where being bundled would see an increase in sales. Being bundled basically meant that for a long time after the bundle ended it would be hard to sell the games through normal means, because so many people were turning to the grey market to get their keys. There were other issues with the grey market beyond the sales of bundle keys, but that's beyond the scope of this topic.

Around the time when Humble decided to launch their monthly bundle things had taken a sharp downwards turn when it comes to bundles. This was 6,5 years ago. Monthly was probably an easier sell for developers as they were not feeding the grey market to the same extent (harder to buy multiple bundles), and the mystery nature of it also meant that people would be more likely to spend money on a bundle in the hope of getting something good, and then find that they would mostly get games that they would not really have been willing to pay a high bundle tier price for (despite Humble Monthly being sold at a price similar to a Tier 3 in a humble).

With Valve realizing that trading cards were becoming an issue, as it encouraged developers to just quickly dump garbage games onto the store and then sell the games for pennies outside of steam they started to clamp down on trading card games, and this hit the bundle market hard. Several bundle sites would go bust over this, as they would no longer get an influx of no effort games that they could sell for cheap (remember those bundle sites that gave you the option to buy 100 copies of a bundle at a discount? Those went away). A few other bundle sites were scraping along, but with no trading cards, no greenlight, and a generally bad reputation as junk mongers, it was becoming harder for them to find any developers willing to put games in their bundles. The people running groupees made a comment about this when they had that Christmas bundle were they could not deliver the promised number of games until a month after it "should" have ended, and they just kept extending and extending the bundle, scrambling to find anyone willing to work with them.

Hopefully you can see that there were really several important factors that would add up to the bundle market becoming deflated. After a meteoric rise in the early 2010's, the market ended up becoming unsustainable, and for the last 7 or maybe 8 years there's been visible problems with the market. The market did not crash as fast as it rose, but it's been a slow decline.
Going along the deflating bundle market has also been a chance in attitude from developers and publishers regarding discounts. We're not really seeing games get 75% discounts within a year anymore, not unless something went wrong. It's generally taking far longer for games to be sold for cheap, and the massive discounts are usually reserved for older games. Developer started talking about the effect an early discount could have about de-valuing their products, and it has even ended up with some companies ending up in short-lived feuds over it (remember when Epic had their first $10 coupon and Paradox removed some of their games from the Epic store? Paradox claimed that Epic had now set a new expectation for the price of some of their games, one that was lower than Paradox wanted it to be). In a climate like this, bundles are not as good of a fit as they used to be, and games are increasingly being treaded like long-term investments, rather than something that gets thrown out onto the market and then becomes irrelevant after a year (took them long enough to realize that digital distribution changed how long a game could stay relevant....Games no longer have to worry about the shelf space they take up in stores, so they don't need to just rely on the massive sales peak of the first two months, they can continue to earn a profit for years)

2 years ago
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Wow never knew bundles were so old. I didnt even know about bundes until I joined this site. At that time I was also buying games pretty much full price because I just started pc gaming and was used to buying physical games that didn't really go on sale.

2 years ago
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nicely written and I agree with all but steam sales. They were less frequent but great.
People who knew something about games and were not fanboys of some IP from poor countries like mine were buying almost games only on steam sales then.
Ah and those sales were fine. Still remember this epic one with coal theme. Valve was giving away so many games then. it was fun

2 years ago
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Discounts would rarely reach as high 10 years ago as they did 5 years ago though, that's what I meant about the discounts. If you look at the discounts that made headlines back during the 2012 Winter sale (which was the one with the coal), not many games got above 75%, and those that did reach 75% were, for the most part, pretty old. It wasn't until a few years later that we started seeing discounts reaching over 75% be a common occurrence.

The coal sale felt more fun though, the activities associated with it were a bit more inspired than later sales (guess it helps that Steam did not have a huge amount of games from no-name developers, so it was easier to organize something like that).

2 years ago
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This comment is one of the best that I have seen in this site. Congratulations.

2 years ago
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greed, not only from bundlers but also from customers

2 years ago
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Too many bundles, not enough games. When bundles became a big thing, they had a huge pool of games to work with. Didn't really matter if they were a few years old or not, but now that most bundle customers have built up their 1000+ game steam library, that available game pool has become much, much smaller. Hence the repeats.
I think publishers actually make decent money from bundles. There's so many customers that wouldn't have bought their game at the price the bundle sites are paying, but no publisher is ever going to want to consistently put their new releases into bundles. That's simply bad business.
In the case of HumbleBundle, IGN also shaves more off the top than the previous site owners did. Manipulating the BTA and higher base prices to start with.

2 years ago*
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"In the case of HumbleBundle, IGN also shaves more off the top than the previous site owners did. Manipulating the BTA and higher base prices to start with."

I'm not sure if you can really blame manipulating the BTA on IGN. The BTA was always "manipulated", even in the early days the bundles launched with a lot of "dummy purchases" to keep the BTA at what they deemed an acceptable level. That's why the BTA would not crash into a sub 2€ price right at the start, or reach some stupidly high level because Notch decided to throw money at the bundle (something that he did a lot in the early days).

2 years ago
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The BTA has clearly been much worse this past year than it's ever been.

2 years ago
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Yes, that is true. The BTA often gets pretty high these days. I don't think this is something you can just point to IGN and say "They did it" though, considering it was a trend that started long before IGN got involved. The launch of the third tier was pretty controversial for this reason (it was viewed as a way of driving up the BTA), and Humble has over the years changed the structure of their bundles, to encourage you to get the higher tiers to begin with, by putting the games more people want in higher tiers and putting the re-bundled stuff in the lower tiers. And they've also been shrinking the bottom tier, to the point where it's now usually just a single game in it (Tier 1 and Tier 2 used to be more or less the same size).

2 years ago
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Like many others said, it's complicated and there's many factors, but one is that Valve, because of many exploits, limited the amount of keys devs can pull nowadays. Before, anyone could just ask for 100.000 keys and then 100.000 more tomorrow and so on... Many of those half a decade old keys now float on re-seller websites... but today it's much harder to get keys even to participate in Humble.

Here's an example I saw earlier today: https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/sqpiik/valve_refuses_keys_for_bundle_i_signed_a_contract/

2 years ago
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wow this is really awkward. Heard about limitations but what I read here is crazy.
Don't know what are agreements between dev and valve but this seems kind of like monopoly tactics

2 years ago
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I've heard before of "bad actors" as Valve calls them getting rejected because they had hundreds of thousends of keys floating around... According to this dev - I don't know who they are just what I've read in the thread like you probably did - they aren't one of those people... But if you look like you are... no soupkeys for you.

2 years ago
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Do you have any info how many bundles +/- are sold nowadays? I mean how many purchases in one particular bundle?
I wonder how many keys it can be. Humble writes how many $ were donated (even if it's true) but that don't say me how many were sold.
Fanatical doesn't write anything and their bundles are often hanging much longer or are relaunched

2 years ago
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I don't know, and I'd assume it's a business secret for Humble to reveal how many subscriptions they have.
Whatever the number might be, they'd probably ask for thousands of keys more than that "just in case" with the agreement to return the excess/unsold keys later.

I've never actually worked with any bundles, had some offers from IndieGala and some others few years back but politely refused, so the only things I "know" are from what I was told or I've read online.

2 years ago
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Wow, when I thought limits, I didn't think Valve would outright deny keys. They should set warnings about unredeemed keys then per dev or per game if that's one of their considerations for key generation.

2 years ago
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There are multiple warnings not to create unnecessary keys and have them floating around, only to generate when needed... It's easy to be smart and wise after the fact, but this dev should have tried generating those keys first and only then signing a contract to put them in a bundle. Valve is tightening that ship for some 2 years now and it's known that if you ask for 100k keys and don't sell anywhere close on Steam, you'll get rejected.

You don't need keys for testing anymore, with a new public/closed playtest feature either, don't need them for journalists if they have curator page... the only thing you'd need keys is for a 3rd party store or a bundle... which is what they were originally intended... before the bot farms and all the evil things in the world.

I get it is very messed up getting rejected like that if you're a normal dev and didn't do anything wrong just because someone up there sees your actions similar to a certain behavior pattern from "fake devs", but... in the end, it's "free keys" for a full steam service - hosting, cloud saves, achievements, forums, chat... so yeah, Valve keeps the right to reject anyone and close the case.

2 years ago*
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thanks for all info you shared with us

2 years ago
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There are over 50,000 games on Steam last I checked, so there's no shortage of potential games to bundle. The problem is convincing developers to sell their game for almost nothing, and then killing future sales potential due to excess keys floating around in the grey market. Most developers are now wise to the fact that by bundling their game they're likely killing its long term sales.

2 years ago
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I think the grey market mainly killed the bundle scene and Valve is ok with that. There was a feature on Steam that allowed bundle sites to add directly a game to a user account instead of generating a key but Valve got rid of that. They want any game in a bundle to end up the grey market hell where no game comes out. And that's the reason the same games got bundled forever, once you're in hell you can't go deeper and this is also why so many developers don't want to be in bundles anymore.

2 years ago
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