Aye, @ wanting to get rid of Nazis. It is ironic then that the President of Ukraine is a Jewish man.
The logic with these people is astounding.
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Can you provide proof where Mearsheimer endorses those kind of people ?
Why are you pushing fake news ?
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I'm certainly not going to click on some random YouTube link when you haven't even said what it's about. It's even less likely when you appear to be going out of your way to keep it vague. I can only conclude the same as the previous poster, that you're just throwing a rock and running away to watch from a safe distance.
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Right? I find it astounding that most people assume that if you're against Putin's narcissistic war-mongering, you've somehow been brainwashed by the media coverup of the real culprit: NATO so you need a bunch of old people to tell you what the true truth is.
Hmmm... I enjoy a spirited debate on everything but watching people pretend to debate something (spoiler: they all agree so there's no real debate) and see who scores the most points to decide what I now should be thinking... nope.
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I'm glad I watched it.
My summary: a handful of scholars over the age of 60 delivers various versions and examples of "the U.S. government astoundingly fails to see Russia's point of view and has been mismanaging their relationship for almost two decades." The speakers don't approve of Putin's actions or methods, but they point out that some reaction to the U.S.'s actions has been foreseeable for some time, and a bear's gonna bear.
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I'm glad someone found it somehow useful. Have a good day :)
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I found it to be of poor taste a bit that you just threw this in here as it comes off as an attempt at shifting blame when it comes from a Russian. Mearsheimer has very valid points but his analysis is totally one sided. He treats Russia as a constant, a force of nature that can't or is unwilling to adapt. Russia declared Ukraine joining the West a red line so if Ukraine tries to do so then it's their and the USA's fault if Russia invades them? Of course this line of thought absolutely has merit through the lens of realpolitiks but the major share of blame / fault lies with the country that launched an invasion of another sovereign country. You could also turn the argument around and claim that NATO declared its willingness to add Ukraine and Georgia in time and Russia should have adapted. Makes it a game of chicken where neither side swerved.
I didn't watch the whole video (only about half) but in the parts I did it wasn't discussed at all whether Russia's concerns are vaild and whether they had other choices that would have been better for them rationally. In my opinion Russia's security concerns of NATO being on their border are not valid at all. First, NATO countries already bordered Russia. Secondly, no nuclear missiles or large bases were installed in any of the newer Eastern European NATO members. Thirdly Ukraine was decade(s) away from joining NATO or the EU and Russia successfully threw a wrench into that with the Donbass and Crimea. Fourthly and most importantly Russia can destroy the whole world with its nuclear arsenal. Their borders are absolutely safe because of MAD.
Russia is not the USSR, it's not a world superpower (except for its nuclear arsenal). You can't be a superpower with an economy the size of Italy's. But Russia still behaves like one. And I'm not sure their strategy makes sense. If they wanted Ukraine to stay neutral / Russia-aligned then taking over the Crimea and starting the Donbass conflict was a mistake. You can't expect to have positive relations with a country you are in the process of slowly dismembering. The other approach which they chose in 2014 was legit, too. Russia took the strategically very important Crimea without a fight and the Donbass conflict made it very unlikely that Ukraine will ever be able to join NATO no matter how close they get. The blowback from the West was rather mild, too. It was clearly a victory for Russia. They could have stayed on this course and be absolutely fine, I think. Russia might win the war on the ground but I don't believe it will be worth the price. Not even close. The decision to invade comes off as Russian leadership caring more about projecting world superpower status than the prosperity of the country and the citizens.
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First, NATO countries already bordered Russia
Exactly. I don't understand how that's not the primary response every time that meager excuse for invasion is invoked.
I understand that NATO (and the UN and the US and whomever people want to put the blame on) are not blameless in anything that's happening in the world today. That's the point, isn't it? But I fail to see how that justifies an invasion of a neighboring country based on a hypothetical NATO aggression...
If my neighbor gets a gun and I don't like guns... and well statistically speaking chances are there's bound to be an accident that may or may not happen and may or may not involve me or my family, does that mean it gives me the right to invade his home with my own guns and take his family hostage just to make sure nothing happens?
It's also one thing to say NATO is not blameless, and quite another to say that absolves Putin of any responsibility in his actions. I mean... what else was he gonna do, ya know? Hm.... not invade a sovereign state to impose his wishes? That was an option too, right?
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i thought about this a lot in the last days. The whole 'Nazi is genoziding us' act is just... yep. But then there is the 'The NATO did it too!' one. And yes. It is a valid argument.
Now I wonder if two wrong make a 'right'. They do not. It's very obvious why Putin invaded Ukraine. Zelenskyy chanllenged his rule: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuhZauu188A (there are penis jokes in the vid. Be advised)
At this point it is very clear that Russia moved into a spot it... doesn't want to hold. I see that you came to the same position. This is not the action of someone that wants to get 'ahead'. This is just something that was done for bragging rights. This needs to end. The sooner it does, the better.
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Thank you for the link, btw, that video is really interesting.
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Hi there. I want to keep it short and as impersonal as possible.
I noticed some unanimous activity in sg as well as any english-speaking platform. Which strikes me as a really weird thing due to the popular idea how polarized people nowadays. I know people have some strong opinions, some hold to their ideology, some loves to troll and some just hurt and this post is not the attempt to change their minds. But if you are not really sure what is going on and why, here is some interesting and relatively fresh debate with the strong panel of American scholars and diplomats . If you think that this is not enough to inform you, well you can keep digging, its a good start anyway. I won't reply in this thread, hope you will keep it civil. Peace to you all.
UPD. Title of the video is self explanatory
In short it's about deep reasons of the conflict (as speakers see it), some misconceptions about power of sanctions, role of rights in the foreign policy, what could be done and what might happen
Also it's not onesided as you might think it is. Panel presented their case and moderator with some of the participants agreed or disagreed respectfully and asked some tough question.
I didn't "throw the rock", I'm just not interested in my personal participation in debates here, sorry. Mostly because I know that most talkative would be the ones who didn't watch the thing, so it is the reason to keep it with the barebone description. I just thought somebody might be interested to see the situation from all sides without propaganda narrative in form of a debate. Sorry for stiff exposition. It's better be treated as a random video you encounter, but you may choose google the credentials of the people below (sadly I couldn't identify all of them).
Panel:
Ray McGovern
John Mearsheimer
Participants:
Jack Matlock
Adam Dixon
Susan Eisenhower
Ronald Maxwell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppD_bhWODDc
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