Do you think the Game Ban is a bad idea?
I know, but they shouldn't have the right to take away all access to a game, a Game Ban encompasses even single player I believe.
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They dont have the right to take away all access from a game. It bans you from the online components. You can still launch and play the game normally. That is, unless its online-only, in which that is a much larger problem.
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Have you ever read any of your games' EULA's? If you don't agree with giving them that right, don't agree to give it to the ones who state that in their agreements.
I'm not saying I enjoy those, Inreally dislike EULA's, but some Devs do reserve that right... :(
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Depending on where you live EULA's are worthless.
If you are not signing anything, you are not agreeing to anything. Simple as that.
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Sometimes even if you sign something, if it is deemed unfair by a court, it is worthless. At least in some EU countries.
You can't simply write anything in the EULA and make it happen.
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We need a system that would allow us to ban DEVS from Steam. Start a vote, pass barrage, ban that asshole devs. 10/10 would vote.
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While bans for negative reviews is something I can believe, mind giving me links to the games? I want to go laugh at the rage the devs deserve on the forums.
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I would like to see that too, and the reaction of the community torwards those devs. And hopefully see their game removed from Steam.
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This doesn't help my case but I honestly can't remember the names of the games. The ones I heard about were mostly crappy indie games where the dev banned the user and then removed the negative review.
EDIT: If you go take a look at Grand Theft Auto V's page on Steam ... almost every single recent review is Not Recommended because of the bans.
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I'm aware of that, but there is at least a real reason for it, despite being crap. I'm wondering about totally undeserved bans.
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He wants proof of bans because of bad reviews, not bad reviews because of bans.
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WTF? Ban for use mods? This system must be remove, until Valve review the mechanics of this to ensure the bans are aplied with a criteria (i.e. cheating, boting, scaming) and not just for "revenge" or for use mods =S . What next, ban for edit .ini files to removed capped FPS, LOL!
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Wow, Rockstar bans for using mods! They are now on my banned list. Will not buy, will not enter GAs, will not play any game associated with them. That's it. I feel fortunate I've generally avoided them for their horrible DRM.
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It especially sucks because some of the bans have been for small things like FOV mods. But ... I mean ... just imagine buying a $60 game and being banned a few days later because you wanted to increase the FOV. And because of that you're potentially banned forever.
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A friend of mine can only play at certain FOVs or he feels sick. No one should ever be banned for it.
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Rockstar as said that cosmetic mods aren't bannable, but increasing FOV gives an advantage over other players, its probably best not to use it at all, atleast until Rockstar is clear about what bannable or not.
But you can use mods in SP, despite what people have wrote on Steam
BTW in most cases people seem to be getting suspensions
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While i must agree that banning for mods that do not give you an advantage,i still understand when i buy a game that mods may not be supported and i never thought they would be when i got GTA V that would just leave to much open and for someone to decide what is and is not a cheat.
Modding on the PC is not a right it is just something that can enhance it.i think they could have done something to allow some form of modding but then again people would abuse that,like if you could make your own designs for cars some idiot would make a porn or use stuff the do not have rights to.
A lot mods on GTA IV would violate copyrights,like playing as the Hulk and such.
i still not sure why people think every game they buy they are entitled to modding,when it is digital you really no rights other then to play the game as the publisher intended,it is up to them to decide if you can use mods.
You never own the game,even on dvd you had the right to use the code and other assets on the game nothing more nothing less.The only difference now is before you could mod without them even knowing,now they can find out and ban you.So unless they announce the game official supports modding,why would you think other wise your entitled to mods?
Still i do admit the ability to mod does influence me to play on the pc over consoles,and if this happens with other games that do not officially support mods and get banned for using them,i might just go back to consoles as it would be cheaper,i did get the pc for the ability to have better looking games and the chance to mod in some.I just new R* would not support it and may ban for it as it will be far easier on pc then consoles,yet people balked at it and talked about how good it was going to be because of mods and laughing at consoles players and calling them peasants.,Talk about your V-8 moments.
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https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6899-IOSK-9514
According to this, it's not a blanket banning system; individual developers have to request the banning permissions for each specific game.
It only applies to multiplayer games (presumably any game which has multiplayer, which to be fair that's quite a few)
It cannot block you from playing the game offline, which also to be fair is pointless for multiplayer games, depending on the game in question (obviously games both single and multiplayer are what they refer to for that).
They are quite clearly NOT allowed to ban for Not Recommended reviews*, and Valve can permanently revoke permission from the developer if people would just send that information to Steam (granted that the reason for the ban is that; aside from the pettiness, I think it IS really stupid to ban for NR reviews just because it prevents anyone from changing their minds, if they ever would, especially if it prevents them from retrying the multiplayer).
As for mods...I mean, I agree that's bullshit, but TECHNICALLY...even though the mods may be free and therefore there's no loss of profit, depending on the mod/game/ect. it IS still messing around with a developer's source code, and that is illegal in most instances, unless the developer explicitly states it's allowed (for instance, games like Garry's Mod where the entire game revolves around it, or System Shock 2 and other games that have Mod folders). At least by T&C, et al.; I still agree that it's stupid, but they are legally in the right to ban for it, even if it's idiotic in regards to alienating their entire fanbase. =/
*As they are only meant to ban players interfering in multiplayer settings. I suppose technically this also applies to people banned for singleplayer modding, though as later stated it's still technically in their right.
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Alright ... thank you for that link ... somehow I always miss the most important source of information no matter how hard I look.
As for what they can and can't ban for, from what I understand the criteria and decision is entirely up to the developer. They could just lie about the reason for the ban and Valve can't rescind it because there really isn't any proof that they didn't do what the dev said they did.
I just feel like Valve and Steam should have a little more control over this banning process.
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Despite you redacting your argument in a later comment, I still totally side with you on regards about them tightening up control on it. I feel at the very least Valve should require some sort of record and reason for it to be kept (although proof about the wrongdoing is one thing I don't know how they may feasibly and consistently obtain). But perhaps with them being required to at least come UP with a reason for the ban, would make them less susceptible to abusing it? After all, if they banned everyone who wrote a negative review, that would be noticed, and giving a copy+paste reason for it, or some odd, not-quite-right reason would seem strange for every single person.
I don't know. I agree with you on tighter control, though.
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I still stand with much of my argument. I just feel I acted too quickly. I didn't gather enough information, but I feel that what I did gather is still rather valid. I am just now leaning more towards tighter control or a changing of how the system works than to it being fully removed.
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Need of coming up with a reason wouldn't change anything in this case - mods that were banned are executable injected files, just like cheats. They can just show that to Valve and say 'look, hacker'. Even if game bans didn't exist, GTA V could end up with mods added to VAC and ban that way.
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Well, I was referring more to here in America, at the very least. I know that there have been several issues where people have made mods of varying depth/alteration and been attacked by the publisher (and sometimes developer); currently searching for proof now. As for EULAs, T&Cs, ect., EULAs (at least in part) have been backed up before (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/09/10/the-end-of-used-major-ruling-upholds-tough-software-licenses/ and https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/07/you-bought-it-you-dont-own-it)
But regardless of whether it holds up in court (which has been challenged but not successfully, so it does, here in America, hold up in court), as far as Valve and Steam are concerned, you agree that in order to play the game you will follow the T&Cs and EULAs. If you break that agreement (both with Valve and the publishers and developers) it would be construed as a perfectly reasonable cause for a ban.
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I feel like this should be changed as well. You should be able to do anything you want with the source code as long as you are not breaking any sort of copyright laws by reselling the code as your own work, or as long as (in a multiplayer game) what you are changing doesn't provide you with an unnecessary or game-breaking advantage.
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Upon closer examination, I feel like I may have misrepresented the problem. I do still believe that the system needs to be modified in such a way that Valve has more control over the bans. But perhaps at the present time it would be more productive to bring these issues up with the developers/publishers that are abusing the system and then go to Valve if the complaints are ignored. I apologize for this and admit I acted somewhat rashly. I just get very worked up about Steam as gaming is my biggest hobby and am aggressive towards anything that would negatively impact it. I will leave petition up as I think it is still relevant but will try to do more research next time.
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Do you have any sources for the claims of game bans for bad reviews and modding?
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For modding, just looks at the recent GTAV reviews. It's highly unlikely that that many people are just lying about it.
As for bad reviews, I previously stated that I could not remember, most of the instances I recall seeing were for mostly poor quality multiplayer indie games.
I also previously stated that I did rush in to this debate and probably should have waited before starting it.
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You do realize that those GTA bans have nothing to do with the new ban system, right?
Rockstar have their own system and they do not need approval from Valve to use it.
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can i just use "offline" mode for sensitive dev? aka playing single player
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The Steam Support article states that even if one is permabanned from any game, you are still perfectly able to play that game off-line. Now...if that game is something such as Titanfall (I realise it's not on Steam, but it's an example) or Evolve - games that don't HAVE singleplayer - playing off-line isn't really an option.
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Well then I'm wrong. I don't own Evolve, I was merely using it as it was something off the top of my head. My point should be clear.
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But not all multiplayer games have bots ... and the bots aren't always that decent from what I've observed.
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Valve needs to understand that the line between consumers and developers is fading away, developers aren't the professionals they used to be made out to be anymore, now they are mostly people like you and me who just got into game developing and put their "products" in Steam, and lots of them are young kids with emotions, and sometimes with a complex of inferiority.
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This system's why I canned all my posted reviews, I won't bother writing them anymore if I risk a ban for warning others about bugs or missing content. Fuck that. :/
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As I stated, you technically cannot be banned for any reviews. Even if someone is banned for it, you would only have to report to Steam Support and they should fix it...although we all know how SS likes to act.
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Technicalities don't stop it from happening though. And Steam doesn't always have the power or information to fix it.
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I agree they are not suppose to do it,but how will they know other wise if it was because of a bad review or forum post or actual cheating?
I can punch someone in the face for the hell of it,it is wrong,will i get caught or punished who knows,still does not mean it is ok to punch people because i might not get caught.
Well same for them,what are the odds of them getting caught ?What are the steps to file a ban and how well are they checked?seeing how crap steam support is for everyday task,how well will they verify these ban request?
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I am not sure it can be fixed.
The way it stands now it seems its your word against the publisher so all they have to do is claim your cheating to get banned even if it is not the case.
I suppose they could make you show proof but that would add a lot leg work.
Steam is turning into complete shit and i have only been using it since last June.
In the end i think VAC does a pretty good job and it should be use VAC or find your own way to ban people.I am sure though most of the abuse will come from people saying the game sucks or you do not like the publisher,just another way for them to block you from the game if you do not like it or do not treat them like god,though this is just imo.
The way i see it if publishers want to keep cheaters out of online and do not want to use Steam and VAC they need to do something that is like VAC and also make online that is different from offline,so if people want to mod offline they can and should not be punished.
Though i do have to agree that when you buy a game it is your to do with but also if you use there service for online it is there to do what they wish also.
What is funny is all those people talk up steam and how great it is,and if the game is not on Steam they do not want to buy it,but are the first go grab the pitchforks when Valve tries to fuck them.In a world full of eye for an an eye the one eyed man is king.Welcome to the digital age where keys are tied to an account,you wanted cheap and easy games all in one place without dealing with those silly dvds,this is the price you pay.
I do not agree with it,but this is what happens when you want easy and cheap,you get crap in return.I do not use Steam because i love it,i use it because most games need it.I hate Steam and i hate digital games.
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It is a bit bullish.
Nothing like being bullied into using the games you payed for, how the bulls want you to use them.
Bulls are fucking stupid though. Watch how they get corralled into a word fight.
And still come out smelling like shit shining angels, never did anything wrong.
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I have closed the petition as this sounds more like an issue to bring up with individual developers at the present time. Also, first time actually using Change, wasn't sure what exactly needed to be done.
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Too much arbitrary power to developers and steam. I agree that some idiots should be banned but there should be 1. A fixed rule set governing banning. 2. Banner should bring tangible proof (a screenshot at least).
Or another neat idea would be to have players be able to ban / filter games from sale at least to certain categories of players that choose certain criteria (too many bugs, offensive content, liable to hackers,...). That would create a mess at the beginning but the equalize the balance at the end.
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I don't think those GTA5 bans have anything to do with Steams Game Ban. More like Rockstar Social Club
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That's correct. GTA V does not use game bans.
Currently only CS:GO uses it for temporary bans, but these bans existed before.
VAC bans are for permanent bans.
All Game ban does is display cheater message on profile. Everything else has to be done by developers. (ie. server side check if player is banned).
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Yep, Rockstar bans have nothing to do with Steam Game Bans.
Please remove that from your post, it's misleading :/
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idk, idk... Can't say anything from personal experience, since only games I play with mods are Civ (and that one supports modding community almost officially) and Minecraft (not on Steam, and again - mods are welcomed). One of the Monsters play Terraria with mods added (and again - that's another instance where mods even make it to official release later), and second one - maybe modded Skyrim (not sure about that). Everything else used as is.
Judging from what I read so far about this whole game ban situation - imho it gives too much power to devs, not enough control on Valve/Steam part, and leaves end users (us gamers) totally helpless when facing pettiness with power abuse.
Since often publishers and developers themselves compare games with cars ("You wouldn't download a car!" lol) - lets move this comparison to this particular situation.
When I buy a car - it is mine to do with it what I want. If I want to run it off the cliff - it's my choice to do so (as long as I don't damage anyone else's property in the process). If I want to modify it (add grills, dampers, reflectors, skylite, whatnot...) - it's my money, my car, and as long as those modifications don't interfere with road safety I can do what I want and can afford. And in some instances - even if they do interfere, though then it would be a case for Monster Trucks show and not for the road, but I CAN DO THAT!
Sure, if I try to sell that modified version as my own invention - that's another case (though I still might get a patent on some modifications if it's something totally new, but no more than that). Then I'm facing the legal hell. Same in the case if I modified my car with intent to do some illegal activity with it (trafficking of any sort, drugs pushing, drug racing, robbery or burglary with car as a main instrument and not just an escape vehicle) - then it is on the other side of the law, but it still has to be proved in court.
So far I don't see anyone trying to sell mods as their own games (inb4 Skyrim paid mods), and the only comparable issue are some mods for GTA V - if rumors are true. So all in all - comparison doesn't hold well.
Where I'm going with all that? Hmmm... Oh yes!
I think that this experiment on Valve part has to be stopped - or significantly changed in parameters. Anything that gives too much power to one side without giving any sort of counter-balance to another - not good.
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I've got news for you - GTA V doesn't use Steam Game Ban.
GTA V requires to log into Rockstar Social Something. And it uses their's ID to ban you, not Steam one. So you can get banned in GTA V for using mods even if you bought DVD's with GTA which doesn't use steam at all.
And can anyone post a link to a game where anyone got game ban for posting a bad review? I would like to see this, and the reaction of the community.
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Only CS:GO uses game bans ATM. Banning system needs to be approved by Steam and is for MP-games only.
I'd say very likely that they're cheaters who are lying. (You can lie on internet).
Edit: Also seems like game bans are for only VAC-protected games.
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I am not sure if VAC protection is required. I know that MP must be via Steamworks if you want to have a Steam Game Ban, and VAC is for Steamworks games only, but I am not sure if this is the other way around. I am 99% sure that their API allows to ban MP in non-VAC game, but their ToS might deny it.
And about lying on the internet - do you know that I just won 10 million dollars because I was playing games at work?
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It says so on FAQ valve posted. linked somewhere above/below.
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I really don't see how people think they have the right to tell developers/publishers how to police their games.
When you are playing GTA Online, Rockstar are responsible for your online safety and if they decide to take extreme measures that's their business.
If I owned a private bar for example, I could ban who I choose for whatever reason. When playing Rockstars games they have the same rights.
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That's a very poor analogy. If you owned a bar you wouldn't take someone's money and then tell him to get the fuck out. He'd call the police and you'd get fined.
We're talking about people being sold a product and then being denied access to it, or to a part of it, just because the dev feels like it, and no one should ever claim this is a dev's "right", if he does not want someone to play his game give the person a refund and remove it from his library, don't take his money and tell him to fuck off. And this is not just about GTA it's about game ban in general and people supporting the dev's "rights".
I can't really tell in the case of GTA V if people have been banned for actually doing something wrong or for the hell of it, i don't own it and don't really care about it, just saying that your analogy was poor.
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If he did something I disapproved of, of course I would. And he can call the police all he wants, it's private property, his only recourse would be a civil suit.
An no, we're talking about cheaters. I wasn't banned, my friends were not banned, were you banned? People were banned for using mods and trainers that Rockstar explicitly forbade them to use. They were given plenty of warning too.
Imo the less cheaters and hackers in the games I play the better. Good riddance to the lot of them.
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It's private property but he paid you for a service you did not fulfill and unless you gave him his money back you can get into all kinds of trouble over it. It doesn't just go for bars, it goes for any place offering a service, you don't take someone's money and tell them to leave.
And no, we're not talking just about cheaters. We're talking about getting banned over anything, including getting banned because you express negative opinions about the game. By Valve's short, and lacking in details, description of the system the dev simply has to ask that you be banned, he does not need to provide proof or reasons.
I'm all for punishing cheaters but i'm against giving devs an easily exploitable tool. They don't need it, if this was only about cheating, and from what i understand it only applies to steamworks games then why even give it to them? Don't they already have VAC anticheat on all steamworks games? Let's be honest here, we all know that most devs deal very poorly with negative feedback which leads to people getting pissed off, which leads to getting banned from the community forums, now it may also lead to getting banned from the game's multiplayer. Again if devs really want to get rid of toxic members of their communities give them a tool that allows them to refund a customer's money and remove the game from his library permanently.
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You make some really valid points. And I do agree with you to a certain degree. Banning people because you don't like their opinion or for similar trivial matters is unacceptable and well... Abhorrent and I totally agree there should be some 3rd party monitoring game forum and MP bans because at the moment any moderator or community manager is beyond reproach.
In my original post though I was only really talking about Rockstar and their recent GTA Online banwave. Every game I play is full of cheaters and it's frustrating that developers very rarely make any attempts to tackle it. So I was somewhat relieved to see Rockstar take such an authoritarian approach.
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I understand your frustration mate, no one here will ever defend cheaters, unless they're cheaters themselves. And to some extent i agree on what you said about Rockstar. My post was about the pitfalls of this new system in general and about some aspects that people seem to be missing because they're simply happy to be rid of cheaters. I replied to you because i'v seen many take a similar approach, about devs having the "right" to do anything and all i'm saying is that it's not right and there should be some customer protection in all this since it's our money that keeps this industry going. If enough of us, to make this industry not be profitable anymore, suddenly stopped buying games they'd have to find a new job, they can't live without us and they should treat us with a bit more respect, that's all i was saying :)
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Yep I'm with you 100% there mate. But this is life unfortunately. With any aspect of authority especially self-appointed ones there will always be a minority that uses it for fraudulent or self-indulgent purposes. We just have to hope that the majority of people are honest and genuine. Otherwise we're all doomed anyway and a video game ban is the last of our worries,, :p
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I can't understand you people. First you agree to not use any mods and then you complain about being banned for using the mods?
Rockstar is doing good job, at least they care about MP and not abandoning it.
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they are not doing a good job, if they ban you from multiplayer for using a mod in singleplayer.
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Why? If people can not be trusted to obey the rules in single player. How can they be trusted to obey the rules in MP?
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a guy suffers from motion sickness. that means when he plays a game with narrow FOV, he gets sick after a few minutes. so he uses a mod to implement an FOV option (which Rockstar should have implemented in the first place). that is the only way he can enjoy the game. he uses the mod only for singleplayer.
do you see any problem here? do you want to tell me, that he did anything wrong? all he wanted was enjoy the game without getting sick.
Rockstar bans those people. this is not ok.
EDIT: and btw - i never ever cheated in any multiplayer game in my life. but i have used singleplayer cheats. so even if this whole thing would be entirely about cheats (which it clearly isn't), there would still be arguments, why those bans are unjustified.
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Yeah I do see a problem there, he broke the rules. As unfortunate as it is, if his disability means he cannot play the game then he shouldn't play it.
My friend has cerebral palsy, cannabis has an enormous effect on him and his general health, but it's illegal here and regardless of his disability if he is caught with it, he'll be arrested and charged. Is if fair? Probably not.
People seem to think that the rules you obey can be cherry picked depending on your morality scale. This is why laws and rules exist because everyone's perception of morality is different, and that's also why all rules should be followed not just the ones you agree with.
But alas I'm from a different generation to most here.
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blindly following rules without ever questioning them is a very dangerous path.
it would be better, if your friend was able to smoke pot for his health, right? do you agree on that? he most certainly does. so the best thing to happen would be that the law in your country gets changed. so sick people like your friends have a better life. but if everybody accepts all rules and never complains about anything, nothing will ever change. i really don't understand how you can think this is a good thing.
EDIT: different generation? i am 34. so maybe we are not from a different generation after all. ;)
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I mean ... its against ToS to use mods in general ... so whats your point here ?
Broke the rules .. got banned . As simple as that .
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i really don't care about the ToS. is your point that whatever is stated in the ToS is completely fine and there is no need to discuss it? so if they wrote down that you are only allowed to play 30 minutes every day, you would just do that and don't complain at all?
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Um ... the Mods in GTA , which are in question here ... arent a necessary part to play the game.
Its an unsupported stuff that the community create ...
Rockstar has the full right to ban everyone who uses it if its against the ToS ...
As simple as that .
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and i have the full right to complain, if Rockstar is being a dick and i don't agree with their ruleset, don't i?
btw, see my example above. for some people (with motion sickness), the FOV mod is necessary.
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Ask them to patch it , dont mod the whole game... literally breaking it @ times.
I really dont see what right anyone has to complain , if hes literally cheating .
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how is he cheating??
i have a 21:9 monitor. gta 5 has excellent ultra-widescreen support, btw. that means, i can see more with my monitor than you can see with your 1080p monitor. am i cheating, because i have this monitor?
if an FOV mod is considered cheating, because it allows the player to see slightly more on the side, then my monitor is also a cheat, lol.
btw, since you are talking so much about cheating, let me remind you: in the example this guy uses the mod ONLY FOR SINGLEPLAYER.
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This seems worse than VAC. At least in VAC the system would have to detect a cheat to kick in. This game ban system grants the power to developers to ban anyone they fancy.
Indie developers are known for being assholes. Take a look at those so-called community managers in the Steam forums.
And Valve just handed over the keys to them to fuck people over for no reason.
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Are we going to make petition bout any new thing Valve puts ?
Okay paid mods... Omg everyone loses their mind ... make petitions ... go on the news .. .call 911 ... etc.
Now this , same story ?
Why is it a Bad thing ... i dont mind the cheaters getting banned .
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it's potentially not only cheaters that get banned. that is the problem.
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I mean ... VAC have the same issue ...
The anti cheat that its in place for dozens of other games have the same issue.
Yet there are not petitions from people to remove them , in fact they are supporting it.
So why is it bad thing ? Im 2 hands up for Anti cheat in every game , as long as its supervised .
As for flaws in the system , the thing isnt even on ... and ppl are already complaining bout it .
Like...why ?
Its like Nestle announces a Vanila and Strawbery ice cream , and ppl start complaining that they dont like how it taste b4 its even out of the factory .
I see the potential harm in it ... but for fuck sake give stuff time and see if it actually works b4 you condemn it .
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yes, VAC does the same shit, and i said a thousand times, how bad this is. it's even worse, actually. getting VAC banned for a cosmetical mod means, that you are marked for life as cheater (which you aren't).
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I'm pretty sure everyone can agree that this system sounds like a good idea. Just like paid modding or jumping off a roof without a parachute. However, most of these only sound like good ideas when you're drunk or high.
This 'Game Ban' system that has been given to publishers/developers has the potential to be greatly abused. There just seems to be next to no way to monitor why users are being banned as everything is decided by the devs and only carried out by Steam. This system needs to be drastically changed or just removed altogether.
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