I dunno, the 88% thing isnt really profitable for Valve, and I see no reason for them to do that. They already offer way more to devs than Epic and with their Linux support with Proton, that 30% is well deserved. Simply, Epic as a platform wouldnt be able to demand 30% of anyones money, they still dont have a cart, after almost 3 years. And Valve already takes a smaller cut if you sell beyond a certain threshold, and they had no reason to do that. We will see how Epic will turn out in 2025 or whenever they said they are gona make a profit, as i bet the free games will stop by then, and the 10$ with each order above 15$ coupon will stop too. At the moment, they dont have nearly the same amount of buying customers that Steam does, and until that changes, the 88% they push will not be a thing.
Also, the man said - No Steam, No indie scene, No Axiom Verge, but then decided to take the money. Come on. I get its better to take money upfront, but im sure a game like AV2 would sell great on Steam given how great the community rate the first game. The funny thing is he is releasing console versions alongside PC (Epic), but somehow it wasnt possible to just not take the 1 year deal and release on both Epic and Steam. Also, lol at the "it started to feel like a hobby again". Dude, you cant expect a hobby to be your main source of income. What kind of logic is that?
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Also, lol at the "it started to feel like a hobby again". Dude, you cant expect a hobby to be your main source of income. What kind of logic is that?
So people are not allowed to enjoy their work or what?
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If you do something as a hobby, it's a side activity, something you do for fun in your spare time. You can turn your hobby into a main source of income, but at that point, it becomes a job. This man was complaining that he went full-time into game development but wants to it to go back to being a hobby again, but also bring him a steady income. A job is what brings you a steady income, and it brings with it stress. He is free to enjoy his work, but complaining a hobby isn't bringing him in steady income is idiotic.
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He just says it starts to feel like a hobby again, he never says it's a hobby. And where do you see the complains? You're claiming he says a lot of things he never says.
And something can be perfectly your hobby and your work. There's nothing wrong about that.
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When I first started development on the original Axiom Verge about 10 years ago, it was my side hobby. I had a well-paying job with benefits, and my dog and I lived a very low maintenance lifestyle. I wasn’t really expecting Axiom Verge to pay the bills...Axiom Verge is my job now. I have a wife and child who depend on me and the game. I love that I get to work on my hobby all day, but at the same time, I’m always aware of the responsibility I have to my family. Making games can be fun, but it can also be stressful. With this deal in place, game development started feeling like a hobby again.
Literally here. He is still calling it a hobby, clearly implying he doesn't want it to be a job, which isn't possible if you want it to be your only source of income. That doesn't work. He wants all of the benefits of a job and a hobby, without the negatives. He had a regular job, and creating that game was just something he did in his spare time. But now that is not the case. His hobby became his job, his main source of income and that brought stress as if it doesn't perform, no money. Simple.
Also, a hobby isn't a job. A job has stress, deadlines, requirements you need to meet and is meant as a way of sustaining your lifestyle. Your hobby isn't supposed to do that. It's something you do to relax, not something you do for money so you can live and pay the bills. It can bring in money, that is true, but it won't cause stress, as there are no expectations, no deadlines and your life doesn't depend on its success.
Also, he ported it for the switch. So Im sure the game would sell extremely well, given how much praise the first game had. So him saying he was worried about the game doing poorly doesn't really make no sense. This isn't some unknown game. Just go and look at how many reviewers there are on Steam for it. So yeah, this is just him getting more money by first getting Epics money, then selling on Steam. Again, he wants all of the benefits of a hobby and a job, but without the negatives that come with it, and the quoted text shows it.
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Having a job that's actually like your hobby is a good thing. You seem angry at the idea that someone else has a job that's his hobby, or that he enjoys. Why do you think that's a bad thing?
I'd say most game devs are in that position since it's very hard to be a game dev without it being your passion.
Literally here. He is still calling it a hobby
He calls it a hobby when he had another job. Then he says "Axiom Verge is my job now.". He only says that now it feels like a hobby. He basically is talking about removing the stress that comes with not knowing how his income will be in the future.
He is still calling it a hobby, clearly implying he doesn't want it to be a job
That doesn't make any sense. If you hobby has always been X, and then you find a job working on X, you can say your job is your hobby, or that you work on your hobby. It doesn't mean in any way, and it's not implied, that you don't want it to be a job. You're putting words in his mouth he never says.
lso, a hobby isn't a job. A job has stress, deadlines, requirements you need to meet and is meant as a way of sustaining your lifestyle. Your hobby isn't supposed to do that. It's something you do to relax,
There're many kind of hobbies. Not all of them are relaxing. Competitive games are the opposite of relaxing, they're very stressful. Game dev in a team has deadlines. If you join a jam, even as a solo dev, it has deadlines. The only real difference between a job and a hobby is if you get paid for it.
So Im sure the game would sell extremely well, given how much praise the first game had. So him saying he was worried about the game doing poorly doesn't really make no sense. This isn't some unknown game.
Thing generally don't look that easy when you're the one in that position. There're so many reasons a game can fail, no matter how your previous work was. And we tend to think more about the possible negative outcomes. Now you're assuming how he feels.
Again, he wants all of the benefits of a hobby and a job, but without the negatives that come with it, and the quoted text shows it.
He never says that. You're putting words in his mouth again. The only thing he wants is feeling more security about his main income, something everyone wants.
What I don't get is why do you care so much about his job.
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What I can say about this is he probably shouldn't have make any explanation. There's always going to be someone decided to misinterpret what you say, so better to not say anything.
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What I dont get is why you care so much about what I think about this dev and felt a need to respond to me in the first place.
Anyway, you seem to miss my point, and well, I dont know how more clear I could have made it, and you just come back by saying im angry for pointing out that he wants the benefits of a hobby (stress-free) and a job (steady income) while none of the negatives (stress due to deadlines and if you will actually make money to pay your bills). You will stick to the same phrase "he doesn't say that" and I mean who would be stupid enough to publicly state something like that in their PR response to save face. But again, the wording is there, he implies that he wants it to feel like a hobby, aka not worry about how it does. This is what a hobby is, something done in leisure time that is not meant to stress you out by making you ponder if you will have money to buy food and pay bills. it's not meant as a way to sustain yourself, that's what a job is for. Simple.
And with this ill end our conversation, as I see no point in going on further since we clearly disagree on this.
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he wants the benefits of a hobby (stress-free) and a job (steady income) while none of the negatives (stress due to deadlines and if you will actually make money to pay your bills).
Let's be honest, who doesn't want that? Not sure where the no deadlines part comes from. I'm sure the Epic contract includes a deadline for finishing the game. Epic is no that stupid. And there are hobbies with deadlines so... yeah.
he implies that he wants it to feel like a hobby, aka not worry about how it does.
Can you stop misinterpreting that? When someone says a job feels like a hobby it just means he enjoys doing it (it's way of saying "I would do it even if they didn't pay me"). There' nothing else. It's a common expression, so I don't get why it is so hard for you to understand.
I don't know about you, but I do care how my hobbies do. As a hobbyist dev, I care about fixing bugs in my software, I care about what people think and what improvements can I implement. And when I put up a new version there's also stress involved if everything will work as intended. And I need to have deadlines, that's really important if you want to actually finish your projects. They're self imposed, that's the only difference.
This is what a hobby is, something done in leisure time that is not meant to stress you out by making you ponder if you will have money to buy food and pay bills. it's not meant as a way to sustain yourself, that's what a job is for. Simple.
What I don't understand is why do you think you can't have both at the same time. What's wrong about it? Why it is bad that a person works doing what is also his hobby? I can't work as a software developer because that's also my hobby, so it's wrong? It's so stupid.
And with this ill end our conversation, as I see no point in going on further since we clearly disagree on this.
It's weird you say that after writing an answer.
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Didn't write an answer, I just repeated what I already told you before. And you did as well. Again, please move on, we disagree and there is no point in pursuing this further. Thanks.
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"So Im sure the game would sell extremely well, given how much praise the first game had. "
Talk with the guy who created The Fall and who is not sure if there will be a 3rd part.
There are a lot of Indie-Games where the first is a hit and the second not so much. Sometimes because the devs want to try something new, sometimes because the "hype" is gone when they release the new one, sometimes because nobody even notice that there is a second one...
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That is a fair point, but I've rarely heard if at all any mention of the first The Fall game. And one game selling poorly doesn't mean the other will. I still believe AV would have sold great as it was the more famous of the two, but we won't know if that would have been true, as what is done is done.
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Didn't even know there was a second.
It's also probably bundles, they can sell big in a bundle (and hoping to get enough attention for a sequel) but in the end it doesn't give them as much money as a direct sale.
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Welp, looks like another dev goes onto my shitlist.
I will never support greedy devs. :)
Exclusivity on PC is doing nothing but promoting piracy.
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The dev worked on it alone, one person on both games, he also has a special needs son. Don't be like that, he deserves the better deal.
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Isnt Steam the store with the biggest list of excluisve titles??? There are hundreds of games that aren't avialable anywhere else, digital or physical
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Steam doesn't force developers/publishers to have their game only on the Steam store. Epic does. Part of the Epic deal is you can't have the game being sold anywhere else.
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Steam doesn't control anything that goes on their platform either. They allow all kinds of garbage onto their platform. It's all grand so long as they get their 30% cut. The 30% cut is probably fair for the exposure that good new games get, but they should filter the trash better. I'm not sticking up for Epic, I buy my games on Steam if I'm going to buy them. (mainly because they have mac versions of games I want and other platforms like GOG and Epic don't always) But just saying, neither platform is perfect. Steam doesn't need to do exclusivity deals, they already have the majority market share. Why would they ever invest money into that while they don't need to. =)
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They're not forcing anybody, It's an exclusivity deal for 1 year and they get paid well for that. Nobody is pointing a gun to their heads to sign the contract.
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don't bring logic into this mess! They like Steam so everything that is not there right away is evil and deserves to burn in hell apparently
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Greedy? Being an indie game developer is a career, not a playpen in mom's basement with someone else paying the bills. I guarantee that if you were an indie dev with a wife and children to support, (his child has special needs) you would take that sure deal with Epic. At the end of the day, it's money that you know you're going to get and feel secure for the next year or so. He will be able to do a lot more with the security that deal gives him. I have read his website and his reasons for going with Epic and I can support what he did on a human level. I'm not supporting Epic, but if it comes on Steam next year and I'm out of unplayed Metroidvanias by then, I'll buy it. I might just buy it anyway to support him.
Someone else posted the link in this thread too: https://www.axiomverge2.com/blog/axiom-verge-2-coming-to-the-epic-games-store
I work in the creative industries myself, and every time I see people saying these things, I feel bad for the artist/developer. He is doing whatever he needs to survive while doing what he loves. People actually come to me expecting me to do pretty big jobs for them for free thinking I should be privileged that they chose me because they don't understand the process that goes into creating something. When I say no, they think I am being greedy and cheeky asking for money. Haha! So by all means go ahead and pirate the game if that makes you feel better. There are always a minority of people who undervalue the work that creatives do.
You might not like Epic (I'm not their biggest fan) but in this case, they're kinda helping out the small guy in exchange for exclusive, even if it means the game might not arrive on Steam til 2022.
https://www.nintendolife.com/news/2016/09/axiom_verge_dev_tom_happ_opens_up_about_the_challenge_of_raising_a_son_with_special_needs
^ I hope you change your mind on the greedy dev bit after reading this article. =)
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From a dev's perspective it does make sense, you're not wrong there. As a consumer though, we have nothing to gain from these types of exclusivity deals. It just removes our choice on where to purchase, and allows for these huge companies to control the market. Yes, you could see this as "helping out the little guy" - at least in the short term - but their goal isn't to do that but rather to help themselves at the cost of the consumer's choice.
I get why the dev is doing it, especially considering the article you linked... but personally, I just can't support it.
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where was your "choice" before epic jumped in?
There are so many games, that you can't play without steam. And with Epic that changed.
Ever tried to play Borderlands without steam before epic showed up?
Ever tried to play Left 4 Dead without Steam?
5 years ago when we only had steam and gog nobody complained about all the games that where "exclusive" for steam.
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Because they weren't exclusive to Steam, not in that there was another store that made sense for them to release it on - they could have done that, there was nothing stopping them.
Regardless, the market has changed since then... and now there is more choices in which stores to release on. Except Epic Games is working real hard to pull it back to how it was 5-10 years ago, and take the crown for themselves. Surely, you have to be able to see why this is a bad thing for consumers? If it wasn't for Epic Games throwing their money around to buy exclusivity, the most logical thing for devs/publishers is to release on as many platforms as possible... and that's what we're seeing most do. Praising EGS simply for existing doesn't make any sense when they are using anti-consumer tactics to take over the market.
As for Left 4 Dead, the studio that created that game was a part of Vavle back then... so that's something else entirely. No one is expecting Epic Games to release Fortnite on Steam, L4D was no different.
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Uff another gathering of the..
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Almost 3 years after and the dispute still going on.
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"We" are so spoiled and entitled in this part of the world.. That having to click on a launcher we don't prefer, offends us, and spawns a mini war of "Good vs Evil, Me vs You. I am right and I HATE You!"
And yes, it's been naggin on for yeeeaars. It's fucking pathetic.
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don't worry, crying over how terrible epic is is not going away. it is steamgifts' version of "I am vegan"
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Games i like usually dont end up as epic exclusive, however now i see this kind of practice as a good one.
Epic loosing money, based on published documents they literally not doing money with any of their exclusives. Developers getting money so they can improve their games, bugfix etc.
So once the alpha testing over on epix the steam users gets a polished product.
I think the only game i played and was exclusive is Before the Leave, it was fun to play on steam, but no clue how barebone was it for the epic release as the game was updated there too for steam release with new contents. I already wait for full release of the games as i try to avoid early access titles, so i still not purchased anything there, doubt i'll as i don't want to be alpha tester for free.
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Can't wait for reactions about Alan Wake 2 being a permanent Epic exclusive. :D
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Yo-ho-ho, for this case, I know several stores where you can buy this with a 100% discount ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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That's something else though. That game is being developed with Epic Games in a partnership, so chances are it wouldn't exist at all had Epic Games not been involved. It would just be weird if they then put it out on other platforms, when they have directly funded the development of the game. It's like expecting God of War on Xbox, or Half-Life: Alyx on the Oculus store.
In my book, it's not at all the same as buying exclusivity on a game that has already been made.
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Just one thing: Epic Games in not a platform. The PC (Windows PC, arguably) is the platform, Epic is just a store and Steam, while a bit more than a mere store, is also not a platform. This issue, worth discussing in its own merit, is not the same as Bayonetta 2 being a Nintendo exclusive because they produced/funded it.
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They are digital delivery platforms though, not just simple "stores" - as they have features such as friends lists, matchmaking functionality, etc. Steam obviously has a lot more than Epic in this regard, but even EGS has enough to warrant being called a platform at this point.
Calling them just stores would be like calling Facebook a messaging service, it's obviously a lot more than that.
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I understand your point of view, but I disagree on the definition of a platform. I believe it has to be tied with hardware.
Sony exclusives drive Playstation sales; Sony actually spends money to create Spider-man, The Last Of Us because people who want to play them need to be in the PS ecosystem.
An Epic exclusive can - at most - drive PC (or GPU) sales, which is not in Epic's particular interest. A Steam exclusive would be the same, of course. An Epic exclusive ends up being an icon on your desktop, just like a GOG-bought game or something downloaded from The Pirate Bay.
All this said, certainly store exclusives have the goal of driving users to the store/environment, counting on the network effect: the more games/friends/achievements/etc you have on Steam, the more likely you are to go there first (or only) to buy new games.
Personally, I think exclusives shouldn't exist as they are detrimental to gamers and (otfen) to game creators, which are the two stakeholders I care about. Ideally, the PC would be the only platform, consoles would disappear, and there would be a uniiversal, synced system among Steam, Epic, GOG etc for activation keys, achievements, friends and so on.
You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one :)
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Meh, I dunno. That's like saying having any other Streaming service than Netflix is detrimental to viewers and people shouldn't have exclusives on them. Exclusives are how you dive into the market. It's how the likes of HBO carved out some sort of place for themselves with shows like GoT. Netflix held the bulk of the market share at that time. Now you have several competitors out there and they all compete to catch those exclusives. Having said that, I still only hold a Netflix sub because I can't be bothered with the others.
Do I like that this is happening to gaming? Nope, of course I don't. It would be nice if we could all just keep buying our games on Steam and ensure Steam's survival into the far distant future to safegaurd our own libraries. And actually, that's the only real interest I have in Steam. It's because the majority of my games are there. If it wasn't Epic, some other company would come along and do the same thing. Maybe even Amazon as they've been sticking their noses in lots of places, including gaming.
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Using your Netflix et al. example, wouldn't it be better if they all had GoT and they competed on price instead of exclusiveness? I understand some popular show are produced by networks/platform so it's never gonna happen, but in theory at least, does it benefit you to have to subscribe to 4 different services to watch the 4 shows you like? I certainly don't think it does.
I would like the competition to be between stores, not platforms or whatever we want to call them. Like Fanatical and Humble both sell Steam keys (mostly) and compete. And like I said in a previous post, ideally I would like those to be universal keys that work in Steam, Origin, GOG Galaxy, etc.
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Price competition wouldn't work with that kind of thing. Like, if a show was slightly cheaper to view on another Network, and I am already on Netflix, I'm going to stick with Netflix, even if I have to pay a little more it.
It's the same with Steam. If a game comes out on Steam, Epic, Origin and GOG all at the same time, and Steam was more expensive than any of them, I'd probably still choose the Steam copy for convenience if the difference is small. Not because I have any big love of Steam, but because keeping my main library there as much as possible. I might be tempted to take the GOG option if it's a good bit cheaper (and it's not a sub), but more likely to go with Steam.
That's what I was just saying with my example. It doesn't benefit me to have 4 Streaming services and it's the reason I don't do it. BUT, it benefits the company that is trying to carve out a place for themselves. As a consumer, I HATE that Disney took all of their content off Netflix, especially the Marvel stuff, but I'm not going to subscribe to another service to get that. You know? But I do completely understand why someone like Disney or Epic is doing what they are doing. Will Epic be successful in competing with Steam in the long run though? That remains to be seen.
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I think we don't disagree after all - you're stating why things work the way they do, I am stating what I would like in an ideal world.
Of course exclusives benefit the companies that have them - my point is that they are detrimental to anyone else. And I do care about myself as a gamer and about developers (especially the small ones) but I do not care about mega rich corporations like Epic (or Valve, admittedly).
Just one last thing: you say you'll go with Steam vs. GOG even when the price is slightly higher - that's exactly my point (and my choice as well): it should be purely about price, you should be buying the exact same thing, not a Steam-integrated version of a game vs. a GOG-integrated or no-integration version. Same as watching a sports game or a show on a certainn channel is exactly the same as watching it on another. Hence my "dream" of universal game keys (GOG did a bit of thiis when they imported certain owned games from your Steam library).
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Oh yeah, I don't disagree with you. Just being the realist haha!
It would be nice to have the universal key thing, but then all of them would have to be in sync with each other and I can't see competitors co-operating in that way. Hehe
I believe that GOG Connect was actually costing them and that's why they stopped doing it. There were threads about it on the GOG forums. I can understand that though. Everyone who is everyone then signs up to get free copies, and you have tons more accounts taking up space that will never actually buy anything.
However, that kind of model could work IF accounts were permanently linked, and you got a GOG key at a percentage of it's cost. Afterall, the devs/publishers have already been paid already for the game. It's the company running the launcher that have the overheads in terms of storage space and so on.
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Interoperability between competitors is kind of a hot topic these days, but there's a lot of road still ahead. Facebook might have to pave it, we'll see.
I didn't follow the GOG Connect debates, but I always assumed they didn't have to pay publishers for copies activated that way.
This said, it's undeniable that it's a burden and a cost to offer infrastructure and services - and no one is eager to do it for games bought elsewhere. It's also true that Steam does it (for keys bought from Humble, Fanatical etc.) and doesn't seem to be on the road to ruin :)
All in all, I know it's a pipe dream, but it was nice to talk about it :)
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Well, they are fully funding the game, so it's like Valve and Half-Life. So not really expecting any sort of backlash for that (except from trolls and idiots).
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Own the first one on ps4. Was quite the challenge and loved the retro feel. Not a fan of all game launchers though and I bet I'm missing out on some damn good exclusive-to-launcher titles but I might have to wait.
Besides, i'm still grinding games from early 2000's (or earlier) I haven't touched once yet.
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https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/p/axiom-verge-2
Also getting released on Nintendo Switch and PS4.
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