There have been cases in the past that key have been bought with stolen credit cards, resulting in a chargeback with extra costs for the devs/the legit shop. Please search yourself for sources.
Edit: Some examples: https://www.steamgifts.com/discussions/subscribed/search?q=g2a
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I understand, that is in fact quite a problem.
Do you know any source stating a rough estimate of how many keys came from stolen cards?
Moreover, do you know where does the extra cost come from?
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Many (all?) credit card companies charge the shop if there is a chargeback.
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I understand now, thank you.
But it still puzzles me: if most of the keys came from stolen cards, then most of them would be revoked and nobody would buy them from there. I have seen that a lot of people buy their keys there, therefore the amount of keys that get refunded cannot be that high.
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There are also keys that come from bundles and so on. So there are working keys, maybe even most of the keys.
But there are every now and then a big bunch of cheap keys for some indy game. For some small devs a chargeback for 500 or so keys can lead into bankruptcy. So if you buy there, you accept that that may be the case in some cases.
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Why isn't the chargeback paid by the bundle reseller? The credit card company had no contact with the game developer in that case.
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Example:
I buy 100 keys with a stolen credit card in shop A.
I resell those keys on g2a or a similar site. The money goes to my paypal or something, no connection to the stolen credit card.
The owner of the credit card notices the unauthorised use and there is a chargeback.The cost of the chargeback hits shop A.
If shop A is a store, the store has to pay the chargeback.
If shop A is a dev who sells their own keys, the dev is hit with the chargeback.
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As far as I understand shop A is most often something like humblebundle.com
humblebundle.com will have to pay the chargeback. I don't see any loss for the developer in this case.
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You are correct. All the bad PR came from one or two devs who sold key directly from their websites and had no audit control so when they got chargebacks they couldn't identify which keys they sold were associated with the chargeback, so they threw a hissy fit and accused G2A (the largest but far from the only key reseller) of somehow being at fault, despite G2A just being a marketplace like ebay that had nothing to do with the actual stealing of the keys.
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A tiny percentage of the keys are stolen, just like a tiny percentage of stuff on ebay or Craigslist or offerup is stolen. Why aren't you crusading against those marketplaces?
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You cant really be sure. Sometimes they work ,sometimes dont. Thats the point. And what does it matter if 40% or 60%, or 25% is stolen or not legit? Supporting such shady sites and methods is not really a wise thing, no matter how you approach it.
As for the "not supporting the developer" part. Its not that hard. What portion of your payment goes to the devs, if the key is a resell? Just think about it a little. Or what if it was a promotional key, that was given out for someone else, originally for testing/marketing/other purposes?
Buying from official, trustworthy sources ensures that at least a portion of it goes to the devs AND the product you get is 100% legit and claimable. Clean game is best game.
Well, the sad truth is, that mainly the publisher's and executives' pockets get filled and the actual devs can be lucky if they get some compensation for good sales, but thats a whole other topic and issue.
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If I buy a book on sale I can have a high discount, I can resell the book at an higher price if I wish and nobody is going to tell me I am ripping off the writer. This is a completely legal practice, and I see nothing wrong with it. The writer will get the price I paid him for the book, and he should be contempt with that, as that is the price he asked for.
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In fact, I would tell You. But maybe thats just me.
With all due respect, your analogue is not fitting in my opinion.
Its still a loss for the writer, as the other person wont pay for a copy he otherwise would buy. The demand is there if someone would buy it from you, thats not arguable.
If you'd not resell the book for a cheaper prize, the other people interested in it would have no other choice but to buy a copy for themselves, which would in turn get to the writer and publisher. Even if its on sale for a lower-than-usual prize, partially it still gets to the creator. Not to mention sales figures are more representative of actual demand if reselling is less of a factor, which in turn affects future releases and employment of the given writer.
Moreover, a book is a matherial item. It physically exists. If you get an actual book, you can check it, ensure its legit before buying, you dont have to "activate" it on official platforms to use them. Digital purchases such as games work fundamentally differently. You dont really buy the game itself, as in gaining actual "ownership" over it, but a kind of "licens" to use it in exchange for your purchase.
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Your reasoning doesn't quite make sense to me. Resale of used and new items is completely legal, it is also quite good as you are recycling items instead of creating new useless ones.
The writer is getting less money, but that doesn't mean I am damaging him, selling an object implies that it can be resold. In the price that should be kept in mind.
For games the difference is that you don't actually own the game and therefore you cannot sell the used product. You can however sell the license to use it, there is nothing illegal in that.
You are suggesting that prohibiting resale of items would be better for the world, I am strongly against this opinion.
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I understand your point too, and I see how that make sense to You. However, I still cant agree to all your points, only partially. In fact, I am intentionally differentiating between the resells of different products, because I think its important, essential even. Not every product is the same in nature and the compensation for that to the creator is not happening on the same basis in every front. It varies by industry, if not on a case-by-case basis. This is especially true in creative areas like videogames and books.
In that way, I would never consider a book "useless" if they produce more of it. In my opinion it holds value beyond its material components. If it gets on a sale, its still better IMO, than a resell. Certainly not ideal for the writer, but better overall. Its still plus income for them, however small.
On the other hand, I'd deem an overproduction of plastic bags for eg. "useless", even harmful in a way.
Sticking to the original analogue, if the writer gets less money as a result, thats certainly damaging in my view. How damaging? Again, it depends on a case-by-case evaluation. I can understand and even give some leeway if the given situation considering the product seems reasonable. Moreover, I can (to a certain extent) symphatize with buyers who cant afford the original price but still would wish to own the product. I know its better to sell something on lower price if that grants more sales and the recycling of used goods can be environmentally and financially beneficial. But again...only if it truly is in that specific case.
And as I did earlier, I differentiate between publisher and writer. The writer wants you to buy and read his story, happy to get a few dimes for that. The publisher wants you to buy the paper and paint that make up the book with considerable profit-margin, sell out the stocks they produced. Both want profit, but for different reasons and in a different way.
But, again, thats just me. I am by no means authority on this regard. You mentioned on a second occasion, that reselleing something is generally considered legal. Please, dont assume things I dont say. I never stated otherwise, especially not in a general manner, without regards to the circumstances.
I stick with the creative-side of the topic because especially in that industry the people who practically contribute the majority of the work are sadly overworked and often barely compensated for it. If just a small portion of our purchase gets to them trough official, clean paths, that could mean the world for them. With another example, it does not matter that much for a mass produced electrical device's factory worker, how much is sold of the product. At a certain amount it does of course, but the treshold is much broader than in creative fields.
I mean no offense by this, but from my perspective, you overgeneralize the issue at hand. Or I am overcomplicating by digging into the specifics. I"ll leave that one up to you. In conclusion, I dont assume that you would intentionally deny further compensation for worthy creators, that does not seem to be the difference between us. But you cant resell a product without doing exactly that, unless you donate a part of the resell price directly to the creators. Its not a matter of opinion. Its just how things work. Big corporations and the people employed by them are affected differently by these sales. But creative fields are more prone to any such effect.
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Its still a loss for the writer, as the other person wont pay for a copy he otherwise would buy. The demand is there if someone would buy it from you, thats not arguable.
Just a point I wanted to bring up. Whether you buy the copy, and then sell it to an individual vs. the individual buying it direct, the writer still makes the same amount of money. Scenario A: I buy a book directly from the publisher for $20. Publisher makes $20. Scenario B: I buy a book from a reseller who had already bought bought the book from said publisher for $20. Publisher doesn't get my sale but gets the sale of the reseller. Now where this would cause a loss for the publisher is if the reseller bought the title on sale, causing the publisher to lose the difference. The problem with this idea is the assumption being made:
If you'd not resell the book for a cheaper prize, the other people interested in it would have no other choice but to buy a copy for themselves
I honestly don't think this assumption holds for the majority of people looking to purchase from a reseller. The buyer's looking to get the game for the cheapest price possible, which is why they're considering the reseller in the first place. Especially with non-essential items like books/games, just because a cheaper option is unavailable at the moment doesn't necessarily mean the buyer is willing to pay regular price. Chances are they end up waiting for a sale and get the title for a discount which'll probably be similar to what the reseller originally bought it for, again resulting in the publisher making the same amount of money.
I'm not saying people should/shouldn't buy from resellers, just sharing my thoughts on your argument.
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Interesting points you bring up. Thanks for expanding on them!
Is not the share of the writer from the overall profit dependant on their contract with the publisher? To my knowledge, there are examples for two cases: when the writer gets a cut from the sales and thats their income, and where there is no cut, but the writer is employed like a regular worker, with stable, but not too high salary. So they have a basic income between releases, but have a quota of sorts that they have to fulfill in order to keep their part of the contract. Like producing 2-3 books in a year, in relaitvely regular intervals or something like that.
I am sorry, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around your example scenarios. You surely noticed by now that I am not a native english speaker/writer, so the fault may be on my part communication-wise. Feel free to let me know if thats the case!
My line of thoughts gone something like this: if there is an attempt to seek out a product, that must mean a demand for it. If there is demand, there is will to acquire it. If there is will to acquire it, but the action is not taken, there is a barrier, which may be availability or finances or anything really. If its finances, the individual may look for alternatives, such as resellers or official sales for X% off. In the latter scenario, it means new payment. In the former, no further income for the publisher, as you just give your money to the reseller, who wont further it to the publisher.
So OG buyer pays X money. Resells for (just for the sake of example)0,4X. Publisher got X and no more. OG got back 0,4X.
In case of a later sale, OG buys for X. Low income buyer buys it for 0,4X on sale. The publisher gets 1,4X income as a result, which is obviously more than X in the first case.
On the OG-sale purchase scenario, I completly agree, say OG buys for 0,4X. Likely he will resell it for somewhat lower price, lets say 0.3X. That would produce the least income for the publisher, but the biggest savings for the two buyers.
Writer gets a share of the profits, if its in their contract. The more income the publisher has, the more share the writer gets. I dont know, I've arrived at a different conclusion than you and after re-thinking the content, I dont see where I may have failed. Am I missing something from the equation? Can you point out what is wrong in my assumption, if there is one?
As for motivation, you bring up a very valid point again. In the majority of cases, people only spend on entertainment when they can safely afford it, within a reasonable margin compared to their overall budget. However, troughout my life, I've seen countless counterexamples, especially regarding electronic devices and entertainment media.
People value and prioritize different things and their decisions regarding purchases can vary from rational thoughts to impulsive and straight up counterproductive. People surprisingly often make decisions on irrational thoughts and whims. A family may struggle to pay bills monthly and/or get food on the table, but they still buy a widescreen 4K TV for christmas, because why not. The maslowian pyramid, while a logical, generally reasonable example of how people prioritize their needs, is not as straightforward in practice as one would assume. But again, its just my take after the limited experiences I had in my life, but these counterintuitive cases feel like a considerable portion overall.
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Sorry for the late response.
Your English is fine. Where I think the misunderstanding is here:
So OG buyer pays X money. Resells for (just for the sake of example)0,4X. Publisher got X and no more. OG got back 0,4X.
In case of a later sale, OG buys for X. Low income buyer buys it for 0,4X on sale. The publisher gets 1,4X income as a result, which is obviously more than X in the first case.
You count a person buying from the company as 1.4x but I count that as just 1x. If the buyer decides against purchasing from the reseller, that just means that someone else would come along and then purchase the game, counting as a separate case where the publisher again gets 1x value.
People value and prioritize different things and their decisions regarding purchases can vary from rational thoughts to impulsive and straight up counterproductive. People surprisingly often make decisions on irrational thoughts and whims. A family may struggle to pay bills monthly and/or get food on the table, but they still buy a widescreen 4K TV for christmas, because why not. The maslowian pyramid, while a logical, generally reasonable example of how people prioritize their needs, is not as straightforward in practice as one would assume. But again, its just my take after the limited experiences I had in my life, but these counterintuitive cases feel like a considerable portion overall.
This is most definitely true, we can't assume people always make rational decisions.
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With this you can't buy anything on ebay anymore.
"not supporting the developer" it's not like a playstation disc that got used twice 90% of the keys on sites like g2a and kinguin are from bundles or from sales that happened before so the devs earned something-
The thing is: if you release a game:
There are a lot of great games where you can't find a good price on g2a and that's not because nobody would buy it but because the devs used "brain.exe".
Tiny Build was the one the publishers that screams loudest against g2a but on the other side they all did the stuff above.
If you give your game away for free and add it to bundles you can't be surprised that people will not buy your game fullprice anymore.
If you have a shop you can activate Visa 2FA and be relatively save for fraud.
I will not say that g2a is good or something like that but most of the problems by publishers are selfmade and I don't have a bad feeling if I buy a game on g2a for myself. Only had one time problems with a key and they helped me fast (also got a dupped on fanatical, gmg and indiegala before and only gmg was a bit strange). But: I will not give away games from GA because IF something goes wrong it's hard to resolve a problem.
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Thank you for your reply.
This is in fact the idea I am starting to have myself after reading all these comments.
It also seems to me that most of the problems that might arise for the developers are significant only if the developer is a very small company, affirmed companies should not have significant losses due to bad practices of this site.
It puzzles me the fact that so many people are against it...
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It puzzles me the fact that so many people are against it...
What's puzzling is your persistence in justifying this type of practice, despite all the evidence provided in this thread.
If you're hell bent on paying lower prices, no one is stopping you. But, don't think you can justify it as something harmless. Grey sites like these are clearly bad for the devs, the market, and ultimately the consumer as well.
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Thank you for your answer and sorry for my delayed one.
I spent already a couple hours on this topic yesterday, which is plenty for me, but I will write a final answer to let people like you understand why I asked this question and what I got out of it.
Yesterday I discovered the existence of G2A, having a couple of free hours I decided to understand how it works, I skimmed a couple articles and I realized it would take me quite a while to get a comprehension of the mechanism.
Therefore I opened this thread and I started an heated discussion, that is one of the most efficient ways to get a lot of trivial data out of a forum.
I got quite a lot of opinions, but unfortunately I didn't get any accurate statistic, which is what I was hoping for.
Just to clarify, I never used G2A before and I don't plan on using it in the future. I did purchase one cheap game yesterday on G2A just to see how the transaction works.
I won't use G2A to buy games simply because it's several years that I do not buy one. That is not to say that I pirate games, I just play old ones I already have, and the occasional free one from this or that store.
It is funny how I got blacklisted by a lot of people for asking a question...
After reading all these comments what I got to understand is:
Buying games on G2A can be troublesome for indie publisher, some of them even bankrupted because of this.
Some of the keys sold on G2A are obtained through stolen credit cards, or begging keys from the developers.
These are the only two points brought up by the thread, as far as I can see.
Larger companies will have to pay the cashback, but that isn't a large expense; it's what would normally be written off as operating expense.
While I do believe the negative effects are there on indie developers, indie games are only a very small part of the videogames market, therefore I don't understand why should it impair using the website. It may be better to advise not to use that website to buy indie games.
The fact that there are some games coming from fraudulent sources doesn't trouble me, it is normal in any marketplace. Now, if 50% of those were coming from fraudulent sources and you had no way to distinguish them, I would think about avoiding the website.
Though, nobody gave me an accurate number of the amount of fraudulent items on there, I assume that is quite low, between 1 per thousand and 1%.
Moreover they have a system to review the sellers, similar to the one present in ebay, so I think it can be easy to avoid frauds in that website.
After what I wrote I can tell you that in my opinion it's fine to buy on that website. I don't see any problem in doing that, but I can see why many people don't want to do it: people don't want to risk being part of an indie company failing or helping some criminal make money.
I also don't want to, the only difference is that I would accept a small risk, while other people on here clearly don't want to take any part in it.
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That’s a a whole lot of hand wringing just to say, “I think it’s okay, so I’m going to do it.”
Edit: Even if you don't believe that grey markets are bad in the long term, you should at least specifically be aware of companies with predatory and anti-consumer practices, such as G2A. Their "Shield Protection" scam is enough reason alone to avoid volunteering your financial information.
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You do you, I can see your point. I dont agree fully, only partially, but can see your side and accept it nonetheless. Thank you for sharing!
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I do understand that, but many people say it is bad for the developer.
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grey markets are typically frowned upon here,
g2a more so than any other store, due to its anti consumer and anti developer history
even i, who must have gotten 5 games from them, felt they screw me over with their tactics
i didn't receive my key and was advised to report it to my local police by g2a support
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User Content
The below is a list of content that is not allowed in our community. Content consists of any material you post or make available through our site, such as discussions, links, comments, usernames, or Steam avatars.
14 Reselling keys and links to reseller stores. Do not use our site to resell keys, and do not post offers from stores which allow third parties to resell their keys or gifts. For example, do not ask others if they are interested in buying your leftover keys from a recent bundle purchase, or link to keys for sale on sites such as Kinguin, G2A, or Eneba.
At least rejected by the guidelines. Think of it as such an evaluation.
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I did not use this site to resell keys. I do not see why this site should be against reselling keys, but it's fine to me.
However the fact that this site doesn't like resellers gives no explanation as to why I should not buy those keys.
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It had everything to do with scammers.
Imagine if your credit card details were stolen. Someone goes to a legit game store with your card and buys 100 copies of an expensive popular game, or several different popular games, doesn't matter. They pick games that they know will sell fast. Immediately, those keys are sold on G2A at prices that seem like a steal. In the meantime, you realise there is money missing from your account that you didn't spend. That might take a few days for you to cop on. You file a chargeback.
You get your money back, the buyers are out of pocket (don't feel too sorry for them since they knew the risks)... but the game stores that the keys were bought from are now suffering the chargeback and charges/fines on top. This happens A LOT more than you'd think.
Sure, you have key resellers selling keys they bought in bundles, or very cheaply on sale. Those keys are not likely to get revoked and probably are the majority on there. So if you're going for games that you know have been bundled, there's probably a high chance that they're fine. But there are enough scammers on that site selling non-bundle popular games to make people hate G2A.
G2A doesn't care about their customers. I've seen many reports of them telling people to report to law enforcement. They don't want you to get your money back. And they don't give a toss about the game devs or legitimate stores who are out off pocket due to fines. They do nothing to prevent scammers from selling on their platform.
I don't buy from grey market on principle, but it certainly is an "each to their own" kinda thing. ;)
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This has to do with the risk I have to go through, though if I see a game at 1/10 of the price, I can accept that even 5 or 6 of those do not work, I am still saving money.
I was trying to understand the problem of the developers here, the risk of the customer is quite clear.
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One example:
https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/1145314954632974337
If you can't afford or don't want to buy our games full-price, please pirate them rather than buying them from a key reseller. These sites cost us so much potential dev time in customer service, investigating fake key requests, figuring out credit card chargebacks, and more.
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That is quite stunning. Thank you for this great example!
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The fault is not on G2A or the like for letting the people sell those keys, the biggest fault lies at the store that sold those 100 copies in the first place without making any checks.
Good stores with proper protection against this block purchases when someone buys a lot of games in a short period of time and have one of their staff do a manual check to make sure everything is legit.
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Yeah, it wasn't meant to be taken literally :P It was a deliberate exaggeration for the sake of example and not having to go into details about how scammers pull off scams.
They of course would use several different stores, and possibly buying 1 of each of the currently popular titles from each. People who do these things know all the tricks since I'm sure they've met all the roadblocks.
I got an email recently from a local store saying that they were introducing 2FA for all online purchases in conjunction with all banks. Apparently, this is going to be rolled out across a lot more stores in 2021 at least. I hope it's something that will be happening across Europe, and not just here. Everytime you make a purchase, you will have to enter a code from your bank, sent via phone to complete it. They are making a real effort to thwart scamming.
That said, I still blame G2A.
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I got an email recently from a local store saying that they were introducing 2FA for all online purchases in conjunction with all banks. Apparently, this is going to be rolled out across a lot more stores in 2021 at least. I hope it's something that will be happening across Europe, and not just here. Everytime you make a purchase, you will have to enter a code from your bank, sent via phone to complete it. They are making a real effort to thwart scamming.
This is legal requirement since 1.1.2021, so yeah most shops should be using it. (Originally went into effect in 2019, but 1.5 year extra time to complete implementations were granted)
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Oh, I didn't realise that it was around since 2019. That's really crazy since I've only seen this in ONE shop so far and so close to the deadline. I know there used to be a thing where you had to confirm via text the first time you purchase something, but this was only the case on some stores and they didn't keep it up.
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First time might be enough. Amazon at least doesn't require for every order. But also something they probably could enable at moments notice.
(In Finland most shops require to confirm each order with back account and banks have 2fa - mostly mobile app)
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You should put G2A in the search text for discussions in this community.
(old Comments)
Was asked to use a VPN that violates Steam's terms.
Couldn't redeem it.
Suddenly it became unusable.
For credit fraudsters, G2A can be the best money laundering hub for cashing cards.
Such an evaluation will come into view.
It would be a nightmare to impose the burden of SG volunteer support on such matters.
Let's say a key purchased with fraudulent credits flows to this community through G2A.
There may be winners who cry for key invalidation and giveaway providers who are investigated for possible involvement in the crime.
Do you think SG volunteer support will help you recover your life?
a wise man keeps away from danger
Good Night(｡-Θ-｡)💤
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The rule you quoted doesn't prohibit gifting keys you got from resellers. I may not think that is not a very wise decision, though I can't help but think that these things are already happening right now.
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Are the keys not originally bought from steam or the developer? Why should this damage the developer if he was paid for those keys?
G2A and the like allow literally everyone to sell keys on it, as a free market. So, guess what, scammers also use it to sell keys. And not only trivial ones, that will sell you invalid/duplicate keys, but also carders, who will buy some keys on legit market but with stolen cards, and sell it cheaper for you. So, when owner of stolen card finds out that his money lost, they file a dispute, and money got refunded... And when this happens, developer (or shop that sell those keys) not only loses money they got for key, they are also fined by billing system, so they actually lose money. So, in the end key is lost and money spent that's a harm for a developer. Some developers revoke keys after this, and you also lose game; but also, as a side effect, devs also getting a negative feedback from users who bought revoked keys, that's a reputational loss to.
Of course, there are "legit" resellers on such sites too, who just buy games in bundles with real money and sell them to you for slightly higher price (but much less than buying the game separately). But problem is - you never know if seller is legit or not.
I usually only use grey market sites as a last resort, if, for example, game is not available anymore in steam/legit shops.
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Thanks, that is a very good in depth explanation. But where do the guys with stolen cards get the keys from? I cannot buy steam keys myself from steam, as far as I know.
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There are legit key shops where carders can buy keys in bulk, or they may buy directly from developer (small indie studios often sell keys without asking who buyer is). I don't so much details, I'm neither a carder nor a dev.
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Why do developers keep those shops if the risk is so high?
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They need to earn money somehow, you know. No reason to make the game if you are not selling it.
Some bigger companies sell only on steam, no keys at all.
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Why don't they only sell on steam? What is the disadvantage?
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Steam is taking their commission, it may be lower in key shops.
Some people prefer to buy from key shops, not from steam directly (for example if you want to make a giveaway on SG).
There is such thing as bundles too, that is pretty much absent in steam.
When you put money and effort to make your game you are trying to use all possible channels to sell, just to get your money back, not to mention profits. And the issue with carders is not so major to avoid selling at all; It does not this phenomenon any better.
Also, as I said - I'm not a dev. Maybe ask one of them, they for sure can tell you more details.
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Any other steam key retailer, which sells keys from developers or from developers themselves?
Some examples:
greenmangaming.com
humblebundle.com
fanatical.com
itch.io (Some developers include a steam key to a game, when you buy a DRM-free version)
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Why would the charge back fees be charged on the developer, and not the company running those shops?
The credit card company does not know who the developer is, after all.
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I don't know how to really explain, so I will give you an example:
1) A reseller buys 100 keys for some game from a developer.
2) The reseller sells those keys to some random buyers (for example using g2a)
3) The reseller chargebacks the developer - the developer loses the money
4) Logical step now would be for the developer to revoke the keys, but that would backfire in form of angry buyers, who would be angry at the developer for revoking their keys.
Now the developer can either:
In either of the choices, the reseller always wins as he gets to keep the money always.
(Maybe this isn't the thing I was supposed to explain, but it's one of the problems...)
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That is not an answer to my question.
Let's down put an example:
1) The developer gives humblebundle.com a certain number of keys in exchange of money.
2) A reseller buys 100 keys from humblebundle.com and pays with a stolen card
3) The credit card company files a chargeback for those 100 keys
Shouldn't now be humblebundle.com the one paying the fees of the chargeback?
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Depends on the contracts between Humble Bundle and the devs. Humble Bundle would be stupid to not include this case in their contracts, considering their experience. And the devs want Humble Bundle to sell their game, so they more or less depend on Humble Bundle.
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Also, in case you want to know more, g2a has some kind of policy, where the developers can get their money back, if they can prove that the keys sold were stolen.
Only developer who managed to do it so far, were the creators of factorio.
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/NgIBI/g2a-agrees-to-pay-factorio-dev-40000-for-selling-stolen-game-keys
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I wouldn't make giveaways from those keys from third party reseller sites because if there's a problem you won't know if it's a bad key or a dishonest SG user who just says the key doesn't work. As for compensation for developers, they decided to sell their games for so little that people can resell them dirt cheap and still make a profit. If you want to be generous you can buy a game at retail price or wait for a sale but most of the keys being resold were purchased legitimately in bundles
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Are the keys not originally bought from steam or the developer?
Almost definitely never. Bought with stolen credit cards, obtained by pretending to be a reviewer, you name it. They don't do anything to combat it and turn a blind eye but hey, at least you can buy that G2A shield with every purchase
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If they are not bought from the developer or steam, where do they buy those from with a stolen credit card?
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Why would you assume that they're not bought from the developer? I never said or implied anything like that in my comment.
https://unknownworlds.com/blog/beware-shady-key-resellers-and-discount-steam-keys/
Recently we asked Valve to deactivate 1,341 Steam keys that were purchased through our website
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Sorry, I might have misunderstood your reply:
Are the keys not originally bought from steam or the developer? Almost definitely never.
It seemed to me as if you were implying those were almost never bought from steam or the developer.
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And here is some more material for your reading
https://twitter.com/StrangerGwenn/status/1052596855220162561
https://kotaku.com/people-keep-trying-to-scam-their-way-into-free-video-ga-1828488205
https://kotaku.com/guy-invented-a-fake-coffee-shop-to-scam-free-games-dev-1821237825
EDIT: Oh yeah, I guess we both misunderstood each other. I meant to say that they're always obtained from legit sources through illegitimate means (aka contacting a dev pretending to be someone else or buying them from devs with stolen credit cards)
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Because a lot of people seem to think that most keys there are from stolen credit cards or scams, which is not the case. Most keys in grey stores are from bundles and various other deals and as long as you buy from sellers with high rating you pretty much have nothing to worry about. I don't buy a lot of games from grey sites, but I probably bought 10-15 in total from various grey sites and every single key worked fine and wasn't revoked later.
I also don't find it unethical to buy from those sites since like you mentioned yourself those keys were already paid for, developer got money for them and now someone is just reselling them for higher price than they got them for, but still better price than you'd find in most official stores.
Some of the keys being sold there are review keys though, which I have mixed feelings about. But in the end it's developer's fault for not paying attention who they send their keys to, not mine, so as long as the key works I don't care. Some review keys activate a special depot of the game though that doesn't get updates so that could be an issue for the consumer.
As for the games bought with stolen credit cards as long as you're buying from highly rated sellers you've nothing to worry about. Some say that the chargebacks from that hurt the developer but that's not the fault of grey sites, that's the fault of official stores that sold those keys in the first place because they probably didn't have any protection against that (for example some sites when you buy a lot of games in short period of time will block the purchases and have a manual check to make sure everything is legit).
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What you are describing reminds me ebay quite a lot. I know of products on ebay which are purchased with stolen cards, though I never heard anybody saying that buying on ebay is unethical because such things happen.
Why does G2A have such a stigma? What is the difference between these two sites?
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Ebay started as marketplace for used items. Steam keys can't be used again. That's a first big difference. We can discuss about re-selling used games by customers, there are good reasons for and against it, the EU is interested in changing that, but for now Steam keys are only an one-time-usage to claim a license.
Usually keys aren't intended to be traded or resold. See Humbe Bundle's statements regarding "personal use", trading, gifting etc. You decribed how you were excited about the prices there - have you thought about how much the seller there paid for it? Do you think he paid more for it? No, they are earning money with it. So how did they get the keys even cheaper? As others already mentioned, by using stolen cards, by begging devs, by using beta keys, by buying bundles in bulk, by abusing regional price differences. What's bad about it? People are making profit of keys which weren't intended for re-selling. The concept of bundles originally exists and is successful for devs, because niche games were sold to a broader audience, which might end up trying it when bored and like it then.. it's a type of marketing. Also bundles are limited by time like discounts. So the calculation of prices include these limits, but re-selling extends the time of the offer. Someone who missed a discount or bundle, would either have to buy at higher price or wait for another sale/bundle.
Of course this (bundle re-selling) is customer friendly and not bad per se, but we aren't talking only about global players like Sega, EA etc. We are also talking about indie dev teams and one-man-devs. And there it gets unfair.
Additionally G2A has a stigma because of shady behaviour (refund policy, fees), wrong statements about their business model and more shady sellers than other websites (in my experience). It was also one of the first big key sellers (right now it's probably not number 1 anymore).
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I once bought a book on ebay, which had a stamp that the book was a "review version" and not intended to be sold.
So ebay profited from something that I can't say is illegal, but definitely not intended and harmed the author's profit.
Are you going to avoid ebay from now on because it allows such items to be sold?
Usually keys aren't intended to be traded or resold.
This is actually a point for G2A, not against.
When a game key is resold once, the creator "loses" one sale, but not really, because the original buyer never used the product. It's new-in-box for all intents and purposes. (like people buying toys to collect/resell instead of to play them)
While a car for example, can be resold 10 times throughout it's lifetime, and "cost" the manufacturer 10 sales.
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Is the sale of "review version" books the bulk of eBay's business? Of course not.
But that's really all that G2A sells. The only way they can undercut legitimate resellers is by acquiring their keys unethically - stolen credit cards, credit card chargebacks, exploiting regional pricing, buying bundles to resell, selling review copies, etc.
You can find legitimate goods from legitimate businesses on eBay. But not a penny of any purchase on G2A will ever get back to the developer or publisher or that game. They're basically an online pawn shop for CD-Keys.
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"But that's really all that G2A sells."
Oh, you're a purposely uninformed shill. Easy to ignore now, thanks for making that clear.
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But that's really all that G2A sells.
No, it's not.
It may be your personal opinion, or some conspiracy theory a bunch of people believe in...
But I haven't seen a single shred of evidence to support it, and have seen plenty of evidence to contradict this to tell you that this sentence is 100% NOT true.
The only way they can undercut legitimate resellers
99% of the games sold on G2A are priced HIGHER (not lower) than the minimal sale price of that game.
So this sentence is based on false assumption.
You can find legitimate goods from legitimate businesses on eBay. But not a penny of any purchase on G2A will ever get back to the developer or publisher or that game.
Again false.
Any legal item sold on eBay only paid the manufacturer once. Same goes for any legal item sold on G2A.
Moreover, same game keys sold on G2A, are also sold on eBay. Don't take my word for it - go check. Take any game you see on G2A and look if that game's steam keys are sold on eBay.
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You're right, eBay is also a grey market retailer of cd-keys. I was not aware of that, but now that I am, I don't advocate buying cd-keys on eBay either. :)
I guess my main thing is that if I'm going to buy a game, I want at least some of the money I spend to go to the developers / publishers that made the game. I want to be supporting this hobby with my, admittedly meager, purchases. None of my purchase on G2A goes to the developer / publisher, and the same goes for buying cd-key on eBay, so I'd rather buy from an authorized reseller where I know my purchase helps to support gaming in some way.
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Ebay is an open marketplace and thus people can easily set up fraudulent or even illegal offers. To compare between both it would be necessary to see how they react on reports about it.
I didn't state that I don't buy at G2A. But I prefer official resellers, bundles.. and if it comes down to key sellers, I even prefer others. Well, except of CJS. :D
When a game key is resold once, the creator "loses" one sale, but not really, because the original buyer never used the product.
You're implying there is an original buyer. There were already several examples for keys not being paid for in first place. The amount of keys which activate as "[Game name] for beta testing" is a good indicator.
I wrote above that the idea of reselling used or unused games is debatable. If I can sell my old PC/console games, why not digital ones? Because they don't age? If so, why do the AAA publishers ask for € 60 in both ways? As you can see, I'm not against this. But it's another discussion. This is about G2A which is a reselling marketplace, while reselling isn't allowed (yet).
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I think we agree on most points.
I agree that there are some cases of illegally obtained keys being sold on G2A. But it's obviously not all or most of the keys sold on G2A (as some people claim).
And there are obviously same cases on eBay.
wrote above that the idea of reselling used or unused games is debatable. If I can sell my old PC/console games, why not digital ones? Because they don't age? If so, why do the AAA publishers ask for € 60 in both ways? As you can see, I'm not against this. But it's another discussion. This is about G2A which is a reselling marketplace, while reselling isn't allowed (yet).
To continue your point, distributers would have loved if reselling retail games was also illegal.
But the legislators decided its anti-consumer, and there are laws allowing it (or prohibiting companies from not allowing it).
So the companies found a temporary workaround - by providing a digital key and permanently linking it to your account, they are in actuality prohibiting you from reselling owned games (owned property).
While this is currently a grey area, and the distributors get away with it until legislators around the world catch up, and make laws prohibiting them from locking your property (which you legally bought and own).
Selling game keys, which you legally own, is obviously legal both by the letter and the intent of the law. No different than selling your TV, laptop or car.
It is against TOS of some companies (which themselves go against the letter of the law which allows people to sell owned objects). So at most you can get on the "bad side" of the companies having these (illegal) TOS agreements.
But the reselling itself is 100% completely legal and allowed.
The fact that people actually think it's not allowed or not legal, only comes to show you how well the bullying of these large corporations is working, and how effective their propaganda campaigns are.
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Yes, I don't think that the majority is illegally obtained either. To circumvent regional pricing isn't illegal, reselling isn't. And some devs are plain naive when it comes to distributing beta/review keys. If we just go for credit card fraud, it's probably 5-10 % only. If we consider reselling keys which weren't supposed to be sold (obtained by begging, betas, giveaways), we probably get to 20-25 %. And bundle keys add up (and then people are asking why we don't get good bundles anymore :D).
You're right, it's only prohibited by ToS, the law is missing. However, the law is discussed for years now, so either the lobby of publishers/devs is too strong or there are issues regarding the definitions of digital items, usage etc.
If one of us end up at court against Steam, Humble or a big publisher, the outcome is predestined in my eyes though.
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The difference is that eBay is primarily a used marketplace of used goods, and new goods that were acquired by unethical means make up a tiny subset of items on eBay.
G2A is a marketplace for new goods that were almost entirely acquired by unethical means - whether through stolen credit cards, or by exploiting regional pricing, or reselling bundles, or reselling free review copies.
You can buy legitimate goods that reimburse the creators of those goods on eBay, while every purchase on G2A only benefits G2A and those unethically reselling keys.
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The reason they are frowned upon - especially by game developers - is because they aren't a legitimate key seller, they don't get their keys directly from the developers/publishers. Most of their keys are snagged in bulk from bundles or possibly via legit stores in countries where the games are sold for a fraction of the price of what they cost in let's say the UK, US, Spain, France, Germany, etc. They take those keys they've bought for not a lot of money via whatever means & then they flip them to make a nice decent profit.
In regards to you buying a book, or a cd, or any other physical product. It's not the same thing because when you sell something physical it becomes second hand, third hand or whatever, whereas a digital product is always the same thing, it doesn't physically change & get tatty over time & fall to bits.
For me personally I believe grey market stores & people that buy from them are even worse than people who pirate games for free, because a person who pirates games likely never intended on purchasing the game to begin with, so there's technically no money lost there, whereas a person that buys on grey market sites is likely paying poor country prices for something or even 20% (whatever) off actual recommended retail price without the devs/publishers getting any of that money. It's kind of like getting slapped in the face, especially for indie developers.
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Alongside the issues with the keys, G2A also have done things like this https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/3/18165291/jake-paul-ricegum-mystery-brand-youtube-gambling-ethan-klein-kavos-memology101-loot-box There was more than enough proof that G2A where behind Mystery Brand, and that was just a straight up scam.
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If you buy on Humblebundle you agree explicitly to not sell any key. I reckon all legit retailers have this somewhere in their legalese. The fact that people don't give a shit doesn't mean they aren't breaking a legal contract.
Aside from this I think Valve is also part of the problem. By taking a 30% cut from sales on Steam devs/publishers will set prices higher to compensate for Valve's commission on Steam and try to sell as much of their generated Steam keys elsewhere.
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With a normal reseller, the publisher / developer get a portion of every sale (roughly 70%), so buying the game helps support the developer that made it and helps fund future games.
With a grey-market reseller like G2A, the publisher / developer get nothing of every sale (0%), so buying the game there doesn't support the developer and doesn't help fund future games.
If you're going to be spending money to buy games, isn't it worth spending a little more to support the developers who made those games and fund future game development?
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The site is a marketplace where anyone can buy and sell and G2A only gets a cut of each transaction, they offer some security but in the end if the seller doesnt want ro refund or replace a key that doesnt work, you will more likely dont get anything in return.
Now with the positive side,. Alot of people use this site as a middle man for selling the extra keys they got from a bundle, so you can get games from bundles by separate without buyibg thw whole thing, I ve done this several times and it always works, once I received a duplicate key and the seller gave me another, so if you ever want to buy there follow these tips:
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People really like to exaggerate the selling of stolen keys. Does it happen? Yes but the amount keys that are actually stolen is but a tiny fraction of all the keys that are being sold.
For some reason people seem to think developers lose money even if the keys come from bundles in which they have already been paid for just like how piracy is a lost sale for developers right? As if these people would be paying the full price to begin with
If you actually use g2a you would understand that their biggest problem is how shitty their support is for both sellers and buyers, I’ve never seen a site that screws over their buyers and sellers at the same time
I personally think g2a sucks but just not for the reasons most people are listing
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If it was just for bundled games.. how come that the top selling products at key sellers are usually new games? Ofc we can discuss whether these listings are trustworthy or just advertising, but I know enough gamers who buy games at release at key sellers for 30 instead of 60 €.
But I completely agree regarding their support.
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a lot those top listing of new big games are coming from cheaper regions and in which some of them come in physical copies, you will rarely see a new indie game up there in the top selling product unless it was bundled recently.
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Let's just say G2A is crap. Try Gamvio or Instant Gaming instead. G2A support is horrendous. I bought a key once, Diablo III, and the key was deactivated by Blizzard within two weeks. I contacted the seller, with no response, then G2A. Waited two weeks, they did nothing. I finally disputed the charge, and G2A blocked my account. G2A also blocked all payment methods associated with my account. Its a shady business site and lesson learned. I was able to get my money back, but no one needs to deal with a site with those types of activities. Obviously, a site run by a company that would rather allow shady practices rather than protecting the customer. Ah, yes, let's also assume the key I bought was obtained illegally by the seller, otherwise why would Blizzard deactivate the key?
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They are so hardcore even the word G2A is banned on steam forums.
In the old days people used to buy CSGO CD keys from there to cheat on for cheap which of course, pissed gaben off.
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I can see that, I was just wondering why it was considered unethical to buy there.
It may not be the safest place to put your money, but that just makes it risky, not unethical.
In a discussion above I wrote the conclusions I got after reading all the posts in this thread.
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Same. And for me, I think it was following an older SG discussion where someone was basically saying G2A had been working to become more reputable (not my claim, just noting the discussion thread opinion). That said, it was from quite awhile ago (2 years maybe?) and I have not really kept up with things related to them.
I remember at the time that I was at least a little suspicious of them and used a virtual/one-time credit card number bc I was wary of getting some auto opt-in reoccuring payment bullshit (I really wish those were outlawed). IIRC their site layout / english wasn't the greatest but I did not have any issues with their keys. AFAIK I bought "new" keys not traded ones or whatever so that could have been a factor.
These days, I don't have as much money to spend on games. Assuming I found some recent stuff confirming the (non-traded) keys are still legit, I might consider them again but honestly I am more likely to buy directly on Steam during a sale (assuming I had funds available).
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I recently discovered the existence of G2A, and I saw some really low prices on certain games.
However, searching on these forums I found many people advising against buying such keys if you want to support the developer, I also found that some keys sold by this site have been revoked.
Are the keys not originally bought from steam or the developer? Why should this damage the developer if he was paid for those keys?
Moreover, why should steam revoke such keys? Is there no protection of the customer?
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