Feelings on nudity in games?
I for one would like to know how, particularly the people that has a problem with it, actually defines nudity in games.
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I don't get this, is there more than one definition of nudity? Nudity is the absence of clothing, then you have partial nudity which is debatable, or am I not understanding the question?
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Well, that's kind of what I'm asking. But now I know how you'd define it at least.
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One of the opinions expressed against nudity in the original topic cited MGSV's Quiet as one of the inappropriate examples. Now, I haven't played the game myself, but my impression from the various screenies and videos is that she doesn't appear nude in the game at all. Hence the question - whether e.g. wearing revealing clothing is also considered nudity by those voting against, and whether this conflation of ostensible sexualisation and nudity may be affecting their judgement.
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As every art form, video games should be allowed to explore sexuality. However, the way nudity is used today is often just for cheap titillating effect. Which is fine, of course, but I'd love to see us move past that.
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Is there any other way to include media in any art form other than sculpture or paintings - I have no problem with nudity, but can't think of a single example where it actually added to storytelling. However, using a game like Mass Effect for an example, if adult themes are expected and explored, I see no need to censor or remove it. That sounds contradictory, but actually isn't, as having sex in such a game wasn't in any way necessary, and the same dynamic story changes could have been done without it.
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One great example I really like of sexuality adding to the storytelling is in Tove Lo's Stay High Music Video (Needless to say: NSFW). It doesn't actually have any nudity, but it does have scenes that would drive most conservatives I know screaming to their pitchforks. And yet the result is a brilliant, moving, and even depressing 3-minute experience. The video would have been less for it if those parts had been cut out.
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This in so many other ways, and it sort of pertains to how the stardards are on steam. Japanese stuff end up censored due to risk of people assuming cartoons=kids, devs/publishers intimidated by the rule systems, the fact that most stuff of such nature in japanese games is gratitious as opposed to adding something of value.
Western devs are more confident in their product and generally come off as mature enough to most people as not to raise any fits.
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Lmao! I actually thought about creating a topic like that too since I noticed he closed it xD
Anyways, thumbs up to nudity! I don't see how it ruins gameplay at all. (Unless it would be extreme and someone wouldn't be able to concentrate or something lol).
I, on the other hand, hate games that are censored. Like why.. I need all the nudity, gore, and bad language that I can get. Lol.!
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Well... one of the few things that actually get's me ticked off is censorship. I don't get why you'd shut down a thread like that other than silencing people of differing opinions.
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Well, it is his thread-- I think censorship is a bit strong a word there. Maybe he'd had enough of the topic that he created, and didn't want to keep getting notifications. But it's nice that you started your own. It's a good/interesting topic worth discussing.
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He felt hurt/flamed. :) As a delicate flower one shouldn't speak too loud I suppose! ^-^
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I think that your expression "on the other hand" is very appropriate in a nudity topic
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+1 more or less - I wouldn't say I need all I can get, but I don't want it censored either :)
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Ah yeah, of course! There's a limit too! :P And it all really depends on the game. The setting, story etc.
I don't mean that every game should be filled to the top with it. :P!
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I just hate japanese games unnecessarily oversexualizing women.
If you want romance, add romance. Stop making every women wear a bikini in a random part of your shitty game.
So, ok for nudity if it's like Witcher , BioWare games etc.
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Especially when the women look like grade-schoolers.
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Yeah, that actually makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. 10 year old children should not be sexualized.
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I think that's because Japan doesn't get as offended compared to others.
What's okay to you maybe not be okay there and vise versa.
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Its terrible untill you can overcome the uncanny valley effect.
So not for a decade or two.
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Hahahahaha continuing my topic XD. I just took it down because people were giving me hate for simply asking how they felt. Cheers man!
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It is my personal opinion that nudity is fine but not needed in a video game. Like has been already said in the previous thread, if it isn't just there for the heck of "hey, our game has random naked people!" and actually "supports" the story/setting of them game, I have nothing against it.
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Just wanna add these to the conversation quickly before another lockdown. NSFW!
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Exactly! And how to best showcase a physics engine's capabilities without at least partial nudity? I voted for "Nudity is great!" btw.
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Now I want to try those just because of nudity, I think the devs were on to something... ;)
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it's fine with me. Ofc it all depends on context, but there's nothing wrong with nudity itself, only with particular examples. We have nudity in other form of media - in TV, movies, comic books etc and it's fine, suddenly nudity in video games and everyone lose their minds... ofc someone may not like for example some hentai game - his choice, noone is forcing him to play it. At the same time noone is forcing him to go to redtube and watch porn movies. ASt the same time if according to story VG protasgonist visit let's say whore-house - what do you expect? fully clothed ladies? same protagonist in movie will be flashed with doxzens of bewbs and everything will be fine.
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I seem to be one of the few people that doesn't get the manga art style, but I can understand that other people like big boobed thread thin girls and I have no problems with it existing.
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But the point isn't if you like something or not, the point is that ppl are bitching about that other shouldn't be allowed something, because they don't find themselves liking that. And you don't see this happening in other medias as often as in video games. For example - I don't like criminal novels - so I don't read it. But I don't say there should only be fantasy or hard-sci-fi literature avaiable, just because that's the literature I enjoy. Same way - someone have problem with big-boobed-anime-chicks? Don't play ecchi games. How hard is that? A lot of ppl enjoy these games (and in fact most of them do so for comedic purposes, not because of creepy perversion ;p) - what's one's problem with that?
But my main argument is something different and it's not at all anime-related. It relates to any form of nudity or semi-0nudity in video-games, no matter of artstyle. Almost every Hollywood blockbuster action movie nowadays has at least one sex scene and a few bewbs/bikini flashes. And everything is fine. The moment Video Game has a sex scene - everyone goes crazy. Woman characters were showing a lot of skin in movies and comic books since like forever. And it's fine. But when action game has character in sexy outfit it's suddenly immature and we should feel ashamed because of that? Seems like kinda double standards.
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so? I won't ban it - as long as someone wants to read it it's fine with me, I can read something valuable in the same time instead of this ;p
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That's my point. I don't get how and why it's a bestseller but I don't think its a problem that it is. It is however a bit weird that millions of women find it so exceptional considering the topic.
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I'd say you see it everywhere, not mostly in video games - everything from religion, sports, politics, fast food, etc. - if one group has a beef with it, then they want everyone else to follow their belief system for it... This is to be expected, but what seriously irks me now is the reversal of traditional moral values starting to take place with things that were overwhelmingly considered taboo. A recent example are pedophiles arguing that their desire is normal, and that they should have legal protection for it...
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the thing is, being born one way or being visually stimulated is quite different from taking action, similarly being some horror movie enthusiast doesnt make such a person a serial killer (well i dont even have to make analogies, a major porn enthusiast isnt going around raping women, may never have a girlfiend in their life, etc... so then why would someone willingly put themselves out there as one of the most hated types of people)
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I think the reason that people freak out about nudity in video games is that a large number of people haven't adjusted to the fact that video games are no longer "just for kids", and they probably assume the majority of people playing the game with nudity are under 17/18 years old. This is evidenced when you hear (usually middle-to-older age) people talking about how games like Call of Duty "make kids violent" (I'm not even going to start that argument. Ugh.), even though the target audience isn't children.
People have become overly sensitive about seeing the human body in my opinion.
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While to some degree I may agree - isn't it the same with other medias as well? Be honest - how many of you waited till you were 18 before you saw some movie that had any sex-scene, nudity or violence? Did you wait until 18 before you saw your first Bond? Or any other hollywood action move as 90% of these has sex scenes? Were you 18 watching Alien or your first horror movie? Nope. And somehow society doesn't want to censor all other medias, because underage may encounter them, just video games.
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That's kind of what I was getting at.
Video games are, for whatever reason, seen differently (unfairly judged differently) than movies, television, paintings, etc.
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Well, +-80 years ago people wanted to censor movie where actress was taking long gloves off.
IMO, everything new goes through that phase when old people who don't use "new thing" are whining about it, just like their grandparents were whining about their "new thing".
In 40-50 years we will be using exactly same arguments about evil "new thing" and hear our kids using same arguments we use now :P
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You're literally bag of bones, muscles, fat and water. What's wrong with this? >_<
And 17-18 yo? I'd say we make this "problem" by saying to children around 5 - 7 yo that nudity is something bad. Earlier nudity is something completely normal for them - they run around naked and noone is making fuss about it.
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one more issue is that games are interactive, so depending on what's happening, it can be worse to have sex or violence in a game
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Well you can always use safe men nipple. Because only showing women nipple is "bad". Topless men are 100% ok, even when women breasts aren't sexual organ and they are literally milk making bags of fat (unlike to what men who are over-sexualizing women says).
I don't know what to do with "lower parts" tho :D
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Apparently there's a Swedish Feminist group working to desexualize female breasts.
Ah Sweden, how I love you :)
I mean, I'm not sure yet I agree. I'd rather sexualize male breasts to be honest :p But it's an admirable initiative.
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Well you're not forcing anything on anyone, just trying to change the mainstream perception of something, which happens all the time.
It would happen if there was enough widespread support for it. Unlike the genitals themselves, the reason we find breasts "sexy" is not biological but social, and social norms do change.
Of course people can still have their fetishes, as they always do, and there is nothing wrong with that, but this is about giving women the same freedom in dressing that men have.
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Look at the statistics on the number of men raped by women - especially in college. Dudes, lock those doors at night...
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Well, tbh, it's just my personal opinion that it's social, but I'm pretty convinced myself. Coming from a majority Islamic-country(although I come from a particularly christian area and I myself am irreligious), lots of muslims, who are used to seeing women in hijabs all the time, would find even a woman's hair very arousing. On the other hand, there are tribes where women are almost always topless and nobody has a problem with it. In the West, you can find plenty of people revealing cleavage and nobody'll really care either - it's only the nipple that somehow makes everyone lose their mind. While in my own majority Christian area where hair is okay but the dress code is otherwise very conservative, most people laugh at Muslims aroused by the sight of a woman's hair but still think cleavage is sickly and evil.
So yeah, every society that I know finds different things arousing based on what the standard dress code is. The only constant really is the genitals, which makes sense as they're the sex organs, right?
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Women don't have the same freedom in dressing as men? Also, I really doubt that what people find sexy is social.
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Women don't have the same freedom in dressing as men?
As a man, you can walk topless on the street and nobody'll care. As a woman, try to do that and you'll be arrested for "indecent exposure" in most countries.
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Really? I'd figured maybe in Russia that would happen. Do you have any figures supporting your assertion, or is it just a feeling?
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Wikipedia article on Indecent Exposure.
It is lacking in info on European laws but the American ones at least are clear.
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I guess mostly just a feeling then, but I suppose it's not that far fetched. After all its on female nipples and breast that get people all riled up in games and other media, although I thought that was mostly a American pet peeve.
Although I've seen a lot of feminist manifestations, like slut walks, and I've never heard of any women getting arrested for being topless.
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Unlike the genitals themselves, the reason we find breasts "sexy" is not biological but social
Can you point me to any studies that corroborate this assertion? The only thing I can find is an old article about native African tribes where women walk around topless and men don't seem to be bothered by that. But any stimulus loses its effectiveness through overexposure, so this doesn't actually show that men aren't hard-wired to like female breasts in the first place.
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Yeah, they used to force women to cover their ankles back in the day because they thought it was too sexy - the mini-skirt would have caused those old geezers heart attacks.
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I don't know of any studies, I just have empirical data and personal experience strong enough for me to be certain of what I'm saying. As I posted above:
Coming from a majority Islamic-country(although I come from a particularly christian area and I myself am irreligious), lots of muslims, who are used to seeing women in hijabs all the time, would find even a woman's hair very arousing. On the other hand, there are tribes where women are almost always topless and nobody has a problem with it. In the West, you can find plenty of people revealing cleavage and nobody'll really care either - it's only the nipple that somehow makes everyone lose their mind. While in my own majority Christian area where hair is okay but the dress code is otherwise very conservative, most people laugh at Muslims aroused by the sight of a woman's hair but still think cleavage is sickly and evil.
And I agree it might just be that breasts are inherently arousing but lose that quality through over-exposure, but then mass-exposing breasts is exactly what those Swedish feminists are trying to do so what matters really isn't whether it's natural, but whether it would work, and that still suggests it would.
Ideally, I wouldn't want to mass-expose breasts and desexualize them, but I would want to abolish all laws against "indecent exposure" or at least allow toplessness for both women and men.
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You want people to be able to run around naked anywhere?
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Yes. That doesn't mean most people should or would even want to do it, but it shouldn't be illegal. The state has no place dictating social norms. I find the very notion of non-violent acts being considered crimes disgusting.
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Uhm, I'm not following your reasoning. The state shouldn't uphold social norms, like not running around naked, not stealing, etc?
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Not stealing isn't a social norm, and therefore the state can uphold it.
Basically if it unquestionably, objectively hurts others, the state shouldn't let you do it. If it only hurts others in the ways of "It offends me!" or "I'm not comfortable with it!!", or if it only concerns yourself, then the state has no place dictating whether or not you can do it.
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I'm pretty sure not stealing is a social norm, just as the bulk of the law is social norms. But I guess you have a different definition of social norm than I have.
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Well I guess it is a social norm, but it's not exclusively a social norm, which was my point. It's not like something being liked by society immediately disqualifies it from legal protection, it's just that it shouldn't immediately qualify it for it either.
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That was your point? I thought your point was that the state shouldn't uphold social norms...
Not running around naked in public isn't exclusively a social norm either but I take it you would prefer that it was?
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Not running around in public is exclusively a social norm. It causes no actual, verifiable harm to others.
I spelled out my point more clearly in my second comment:
Basically if it unquestionably, objectively hurts others, the state shouldn't let you do it. If it only hurts others in the ways of "It offends me!" or "I'm not comfortable with it!!", or if it only concerns yourself, then the state has no place dictating whether or not you can do it.
So, being punished by the state for...
Doing drugs?
Marrying someone of the same sex?
Drinking too much and calling a cab home at 4AM even though your parents told you to be home by 3?
NO. Yet in many societies none of those things are acceptable. But the state punishing you for them is ridiculous.
But being punished for things like...
Murder?
Theft?
Arson?
Yes. Because those things, outside of being socially unacceptable, do harm others.
The state's job is to protect its citizens from harm and better their lives through welfare. What its job isn't is being a moral guardian and artificially fighting social change.
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It's not exclusively a social norm, you were the one pointing out the indecent exposure thing earlier even. Just because you want it to be doesn't actually make it so.
Also your false dichotomy about acts that "hurt" or not. Everything is not black and white. Are you advocating for hate speech to be legal and how about pirate copying?
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How does the fact that some countries punish indecent exposure make it more than a social norm? Yes some countries enforce social norms. Doesn't mean that they should.
"Hate" speech: Yes, it should be legal. Freedom of speech is kind of the essence of democracies.
Piracy: No, because widespread piracy does hurt the creator.
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If you don't understand how a law makes it more than exclusively a social norm... well it's not really something that can be explained, its just the way it is...
There are things that are excluded from the freedom of speech, you cant run around threatening people for one. It's illegal and causes harm despite what you believe.
How about non widespread piracy then? Who should be the arbiter of piracy, you?
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That's so gross they should call them boner blockers. Also how is anyone loving female breasts thereby overly sexualizing women, give me a break. Leave me my fetish and I'll leave you yours, that's what political correctness is and not this insecure "you must not objectify" shenanigans.
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Nudity in games like Witcher 3 is not immature at all. quite the opposite. it helps the game to deliver high quality adult entertainment.
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What I said in the other thread:
No, I don't think there's too much nudity in games, but I think it's far too often implemented in a rather juvenile way. If game designers would get over the " ''giggles'' boobies!" thing and actually dare to portray it in a more believable way, then I would be more for it.
Adding to that: I guess the way nudity and sex is portrayed in games is a result of game companies still thinking that their target audience should be boys between the age of 15-20, rather than a wider age spectrum.
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Or maybe just thinking that boys, and girls who like nudity if they exist, between the age of 15-20 are part of the target audience?
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The way nudity in games tend to be implemented feels very, for lack of a better word, insecure. As if it's aimed at someone who is very insecure about their sexuality, which tend to be people in their teens.
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Maybe it is for the most part, would that be wrong then? Producing games for that demographic that is.
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There is nothing wrong with making games for that demographic, but it does show that game developers (or rather publishers and the suits and the top) don't actually understand the game market, they don't understand that gaming is something that is done by all age groups. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the game market as it looks today, and it's mainly due to the fact that the people who make the decisions are still stuck in an old mindset, one that is reinforced by selective market testing. Because the people at the top believe that their target should always be teenagers if you're going after the big $, they test their products on teens, thus they find out that the things targeted at teens are more popular when they ask their focus groups, and thus they believe that they should make more things targeted at teens.
The average "core" gamer (the kind of person who plays games on PC or consoles, and not simpler smartphone games) is, in the US, 31 years old. Men make up a small majority (about 10% more men than women), with about 30% of all "core" gamers being <20 years old.
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I think most publishers have a pretty good handle on the game market tbh, at least at lot better than you or I do...
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You would think that, but from what I've heard from friends who work in the industry, the people on the floor have a rather good understanding of the gaming industry, the people on the top don't. I have several friends who do work in the game industry, working for companies such as DICE, Mojang & Overkill (I think I just told you where I live ;) ). And the problem is that the people at the top still think that they are targeting "teens", that that's the big market.
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Well then, since you've heard it's like that you probably know better.
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+1. I honestly don't mind videogames having nudity, but if there is nudity, I want it to make sense and not be just mindless fanservice.
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I wanted to write the very same but then the topic got locked .Nudity for the sake of nudity is cheap, but otherwise it can have it's own way.
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Nudity and even sex scenes are fine if there are reasons for it. Gratuitous vulgarity on the other hand is really not my cup of tea.
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i find it unnecessary and i skip those games since i don't want stuff like that (which i do with other topics too like extreme violence).
to each its own.
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need more dicks in games.
without joking: I find it HILARIOUS and stupid what counts as women "armor" in many games... -_-
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I've always wondered why the hell high-level armor sets in MMOs are usually more revealing than the low-level ones.
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Because it's a game, they are made to look good, not to actually protect something...
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If less clothes = more protection then not wearing armor should be the best thing ever! But wait sometimes those armors show more than the undergarments do. Where does the underwear go?
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I've read somewhere that some gaulic tribes went to war completely naked because they thought the size of their privates would intimidate their enemies. It worked sometimes.
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Hey, I would be intimidated if a naked man no matter what size he was, was running at me with a stone axe.
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I get that you're, probably, joking but... because there are so many vaginas in games?
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because... why not... game developers often forget about to please women as well ;) or at least give the opportunity.
Well actually I was joking, I don't care about nudity and I'd not play a game for that reason, if it's used "properly" story based then it's good!!
on the other hand, if not used "properly" it's usually annoying and hilarious for me (the outfits of some women .. just lol, often I can't take the whole character serious anymore bc of that)
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I figured but I had to ask since I've seen this "argument" floating around a lot.
Anyway, here's something for you ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhYtc4P_a-Y
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i share the view of this youtube video, so yes, but in the proper way and context
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Extra Credits! <3
Almost posted the video myself, but figured I'd rather just write a TL;DW instead.
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To each his own for sure. This thing with nudity seem special though. I'm sure there are a lot of different stuff in games that doesn't appeal to people this is about the only one that get's constantly debated and questioned though. For example I don't fancy point and click, or interactive novel type of games but I don't go around asking how other people feel about that sort of thing or thinking it should be less of those kind of games around just because I don't like them.
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thump up for Nudity. As long as game warning about age restriction , I'm fine with that.
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How much more value gives explicit nudity or sex scenes to a game or film to the story aspect? If say, character X sees character Y naked, does it change a single thing if you see their genitals or you see the insinuation that they are naked? No, at least 99% of the times it is not needed. If i really need to see explicit nudity or sex i watch porn which is a lot better in that aspect.
Seeing boobs or dicks does not make you or something more mature or adult-ly, that is complete nonsense.
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Nudity is nto a problem, the problem is how women (and sometimes men are portrayed)
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Its not real and its even insultant. Lets see, this is Tera. Is this "nudity"?
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Mmmmmh. I dont hink I'm being able to express myself and explain myself in english but... Come on. Really? A game "not being real". Thats your excuse? Come on, is pure sexism.
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I'm not trying to excuse anything, I'm trying to find out what the problem is with how women, and sometimes men, are being portrayed. Women in revealing clothes are pure sexism you say?
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Basically just big tits
Its not real and its even insultant
I guess all women have small boobs and if you're a women with big boobs, you're fake and insulting to women everywhere.
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If this is the level you want to go... Then yes :)
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Just want to add that Steam has no game with nudity.
The storepages who state something else are lying.
You can find enough news about VALVe banning games with nudity from Steam.
Or the devs need to censor it.
I don't care if a game has nudity in it but I am against such censorship.
Except Shower With Your Dad Simulator 2015 :-D
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Well there is Far Cry 3. But that's all I know of.
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I didn't play Far Cry 3. So I don't know. Thanks for the info.
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I didn't play the latest Witcher and GTA. So I don't know. After checking Steam they might not be aware of it.
Would you elaborate how the nudity is shown and its amount? I don't want to rely on random searches on the net.
I was talking about the warning like in this game. I learned about it through a GA here on Steamgifts:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/313740
And here an example for "news about VALVe banning games with nudity from Steam. Or the devs need to censor it.":
http://kotaku.com/the-sex-games-that-steam-censors-1680718912
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To continue this topic: http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/fXEJb/nudity-in-games
In case someone felt they had something to add to the topic before the thread mysteriously got shut down in less than half an hour...
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