Capitalization is a waste of time
This is the kind of violence it generates.
Don't blame the victim. A man talked to you and followed you, and you perpetuated violence against him, apparently (at least by your description) without warning.
If you're willing to accept your behaviour as okay then you should be willing to accept a man hitting a woman because she was verbally abusive towards him and he had a rough day.
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You've got a fucked up sense of fairness if you think those are equivalent.
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They're not equivalent, more meant to be illustrative. You have to have more context. Say a woman is verbally harassed the guy all the time, and he hits her. Would you consider that equivalent?
I understand that there's an element of fear which can exist in one situation and not another, but that's not what I get from Mully, rather annoyance at men being publicly appreciative of her looks. It's possible that the particular incident was different, but in the context of the post it felt like 'he went too far so I sprayed him'.
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To be honest, they are pretty equivalent logically speaking if you remove the aspect of fear. Because if you swap instances of men and women in what you said, the only things differing between them are peoples' preconceptions:
A man follows and verbally abuses a woman. The woman attacks attacks him.
A woman follows and verbally abuses a man. The man attacks her.
But people don't have the same sympathy because it's a man and he's fearless, right? It's an interesting thought experiment, even though I do kind of agree with pepper spraying a man that harasses a woman and doesn't go away when asked. Kind of makes me feel conflicted.
I suppose the real discussions here would be:
-Is fear alone justification enough for violence? I don't think there's an easy answer because it depends from case to case.
-Are men fearless, or rather, do people have the preconception of male fearlessness? Is it part of "machismo"? (something mentioned in this thread already).
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I'd say it's partly cultural, partly because men are often physically stronger, and therefore it's assumed that in a conflict between man and woman the man is more likely to win, and therefore the woman has more to fear. Culturally, yes, it's often expected of boys and men to accept violence against them, and not go crying or complaining. They are expected to be able to deal with violence. If a guy gets hit by a woman he's more likely to be a laughing stock than get any sympathy.
I don't think it's 'machismo' as such. It's something that both men and women expect. A woman would often expect her man to stand up to things in a way that she won't expect herself to do.
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you have a twisted view on who's the victim there.
you should create a group to support criminals when they get shot by the police.
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If a criminal gets shot by the police without warning and without attacking first, then I think that would count as police brutality and be actionable.
Of course, I don't have the entire story, I'm working from what was said and not said, but it feels to me like a violent over-reaction.
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hey girl nice butt
does your friend wanna F with me too?
hey reply bitch
come here lesbos!
GONNA EAT YOUR ASS
so what should have been my reaction after walking 1 block with that idiot behind us?
talk to him? what kind of reasoning are you expecting from a subhuman like that?
i won't put myself at risk waiting for them to make a move, and that's the thing here. i won't let it happen again.
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just for the record, i only used my spray 5 times in my whole life. 3 against people. 2 of those people were going to rob me (i already got mugged once), and the third is the idiot in the example i posted.
i don't spray people for fun... i ignore a LOT of comments made towards me. i'm not joking when i say i get catcalled at least once per day when i go out, and i'm not counting stuff like "HI" or "HEY LADY", i'm just counting the times i get explicit sexual comments.
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I'm wondering where you live. You don't have to answer, I just think there are communities where this is more common than others.
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a street dog barking and trying to bite my leg, and in another occasion a dog that bit my ankle so it got sprayed with my leg included. of course the owned appeared from nowhere, insulting and threatening me. he didn't try to get close because he would have got the same treatment.
but based on what a minority of users say here, i should let dogs bite me because it's wrong to defend myself.
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I can totally see that coming "That poor dog probably only wanted to play and you got violent for no reason" ;D
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I think you struck a nerve with the douchebag wing of SG... you've inspired parody threads! :)
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i still want to think at least one thread was made in good will, but the rest just show why the issue raised i this thread is a joke to them.
and as i said before, i don't see them laughing at the depression or illness threads, they only came to this one because they feel their "rights" are being attacked.
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they only came to this one because they feel their "rights" are being attacked.
I got to wonder, do you honestly believe anyone writing in this thread feel they have a right to, or even want to harass women?
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To be honest, the OP in this thread just seems too extensive joke to some... Somewhat you weren't helping your case... Even if it's a valid one. As harassment is a real issue and many people aren't ready to admit that their activities could be wrong in many cases.
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It doesn't matter what Mully posts. That same group of people would do the same regardless - and it's always the same people, the same people who'd be the first to cry if she did it to them.
I don't, however, think MeMeesmo's thread was a parody. Seemed pretty genuine to me.
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Quite right, and I wasn't intending to include MeMeesmo's thread in that comment, which I agree is an important and overlooked issue, just Nikolaj's (in particular) and Lugum's, too, which went for parody down to the title.
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Here's a gift to support the thread.
I'm a man and I'm always astonished how far sexist stupidity can lead.
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I was harraset by some woman who said I had nice ass and I didn't even know her!!!
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Yes, there's also men that like to get hit in the face with a hammer. So using the same logic, I should go out and hit all men with a hammer in hopes they enjoy it.
Matter of percentages. If 1% of women like it, and 0.0000001% like getting in the face with a hammer, then catcalling works enough of the time that it will get done. Not to mention the comparison between mental discomfort and deadly violence. (And then someone says my own analogy was bad; it was much better than this.)
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it was an extreme example of how stupid tolerating catcalling is.
because of 1 woman enjoys it, then it's ok do it in public to everyone.
and when someone does't like it?
- ignore it
- learn to take a compliment
- it's freedom of speech, deal with it
- don't be so sensitive
see how it works? the whole system is already in place for these idiots to please themselves. because that's how it works, they don't do it to praise women, they just please themselves saying things to women.
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This is an unfortunately side effect of men having to hit on women, in general. It unfortunately works some of the time, and that encourages attempts. If women went after nice, shy guys in general, if it wasn't the man's task to make the moves, then it's likely that this wouldn't happen.
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Someone explained once those who do this don't (want to) understand that they bother their victim because from their point of view, it's just the first time of the day they act this way. While sometimes the victim has been bothered many times before. And then they don't understand, it was just the first time they act this way in their day, so what is the problem ?
Anyway, i understand that it bothers you and i greatly admire your mental strength.
(A long time ago, i've been hitten on the ground once by a drunk person who didn't like women. I was in front of my school with a friend (nobody except this man, a friend of this man, my friend and me in this street. My friend didn't help, she had good reflex and ran away a few meters away before... But she waited me. When i almost lost consciousness, i heard her scream and it woke me up) When i ran away after, we heard him crying us : "yes women that's it go back home !" But never harassed like you luckily. Anyway i still don't know the reason. Maybe because drunk, maybe because cultural difference, maybe shitty education, or maybe it was just a shitty person. Still not sure. Just to say, i understand you take a spray with you. But when agression happens, it's not very useful because the attacker often uses surprise so you don't have time to react unfortunately.)
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"Someone explained once those who do this don't (want to) understand that they bother their victim because from their point of view, it's just the first time of the day they act this way. While sometimes the victim has been bothered many times before. And then they don't understand, it was just the first time they act this way in their day, so what is the problem ?"
Funny, I was thinking about this a few days ago in the context of online gaming chat. More minor, perhaps, but enough guys seem to think that saying stuff like "Oh heeeey, it's a woman!" to one who suddenly talks in voice chat is the thing to do. Is there no notion about just how weird they sound? Even if its genuine surprise, it might seem innocuous, and they're not trying to be an ass, it's likely the 100th time that person's heard the same exact thing, it's getting old, and to them the speaker probably looks like this ---v
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I also want to add that although it's not your fault that they're doing that, it's still under your control.
An example from the kids: if my daughter enjoys singing and that bothers her brother, then he'd shout and maybe hit her if she doesn't stop. And he'd get punished for it, but she'd get lectured for provoking it, because she knows it annoys him, and yet she continues.
Sure, you can dress any way you want, but you're dressing that way in public, so you have an effect, and you know it. What the guys do might not be okay, but you still have some control over the situation. I know you said that you get called even when you dress more modestly, but I'm guessing that you're good looking, I guess that you still wear stuff that doesn't try to hide that, and I'm guessing that it happens less.
Again, I'm not trying to excuse it, but as others said, these people probably don't read the SG forum and so posting here would have less of an effect than wearing less provocative clothes.
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but that doesn't work, i have no control over it unless the solution is to... never go out?
if i'm jogging/running, i wear a t-shirt and shorts. same if it's summer. and if it's winter and i have a party? i wear a skirt.
i'm not provoking anyone unless they consider themselves wild animals with irrepressible insticts, and should be treated as such?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
I know, it's a video and just an example, but does this woman wear anything revealing?
Saying that a woman provokes catcalls and the likes because she's wearing the wrong clothes is like saying "sorry, men don't have a brain and therefor no controll over their actions". Every person as a choice and the guys who catcall women have choosen to do so.
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"sorry, men don't have a brain and therefor no controll over their actions".
Well, to be fair (and this is coming from a man), some of them apparently don't. I have a hard time calling them "men", though, because a proper man doesn't behave that way.
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Sure they've chosen to do so. But first of all, they most likely chose it because they think it's appreciative. Secondly, shouldn't you try to minimise the effect if you dislike the result? If you regularly walk down the street with a purse full of money and notes sticking out, and you regularly get robbed, then sure, they guys that do it are criminals and should be taken off the streets, but it's also obvious that you're behaving stupidly.
In the case of catcalling, obviously both provocation and crime are lesser than in that theoretical analogy, but it's still likely possible to reduce the frequency of the catcalls by wearing looser fitting clothes or something like that. If it's a real bother, that's a thing to try.
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The problem of provocative clothes is that it's very subjective. Some will think being almost naked is provocative. While for some others, even normal clothing will be provocative. In some idiots' eyes, if you don't wear a potato bag you are provocative.
And better, for some very rare idiots, even leaving home (even during day not alone) is already a provocation.
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People used to think that it's provocative to see women ankle or (god forbid!!) knee. It's social construct, not widely accepted norm.
"Provocative" is put on women by men that think women are objects that are there for their liking and "appreciation". And it's not true. Besides we're not wild animals and we do have conscious reasoning. So men who say "it's provocative, I can't help myself, it's their fault for looking like this!" are like dogs that throw themselves on meat when they're hungry.
And I'd like to think better about men than mindless animals that can't control themselves. Like you know, men don't pee on trees or don't scratch their backs on walls to mark their territory. And if they do they are considered to be not normal.
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Women being appreciated on looks is hardly a man thing. Women care a lot more about 'looking good' than men. Women show their body when they think they have a good one, try to accentuate it with clothes, and they wear makeup to make their face look more attractive. And then they complain when men appreciate their looks. Women are fine with other women commenting about their looks, and they're certainly not beneath telling men what they think of their looks. Which granted is more judgmental than sexual, but they still do it.
As I said before, it's a natural thing in a society where men have to hit on women that men will show their appreciation. Women advertise, and men try to get them. And women then complain about it, because they want attention in specific ways from specific people. But that's absurd to expect. Would be nice, but it won't happen as long as men need to be the ones who try to get the women.
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It's good thing we are talking about it , catcalling isn't okay .
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you didn't know? parody threads of serious real life issues are fine unless i post them making fun of silly things from sg. π€·
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your argument ignores some important data.
For the record, catcalling is illegal in portugal, but not everyone can relate with this situation. where i am living, small city with mainly uni students in contrast to an aging population, catcalling is such an alien concept.
The closest ive heard was between gay men, who can be quite "persuasive". When i was a student here, on my second year, i got to hear just 2 tables next to mine, this fashion student describe in excessive pride how he convinced every freshman that year (lies i hope)
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Well culture is an important factor so... violence rate towards women and the correlation between catcalling and rape/stalking from wherever hellhole you are from, would make sense.
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it's not a hellhole at all, unless NYC, London, etc are also in that category?
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Why is there feminist politics in a forum for gamers? As a demography, gamers aren't exactly know for cat calling or abusive behaviour.
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- This thread is inappropriate for SG, please close and delete it!
Go tell that to all other threads about awareness, politics, religion, sports, disasters, etc.
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I only notice those types of threads when some really extreme terrorist attack has happened. So not that common. Just don't see the relevance here. There are much better forums for this kind of thing.
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there are better forums for everything, including discussions about games. but i'm part of this community.
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Seems like you just want to rile up shit and blacklist everyone who doesn't white knight you.
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seems you blacklisted me first, don't cry now.
again, go to the other awareness threads and tell them they are out of place.
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Gamers aren't known for abusive behavior?
What the fuck are you talking about? It's exactly what they're known for. You're either (i) in denial, (ii) trolling, or (iii) a moron.
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Gawker, polygon and huffpo? Brianna Wu! Are you trolling?
No, gamers are not known for abusive behaviour against women. Maybe some COD boys, who still thinks girls have cooties might say they're "icky", but that is not representative for anything. The links you posted proves you walked right into a political ideological mine field and have no clue what you just walked into.
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Classic move: dismissing the testimony of victims and minimizing the problem, in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.
"Facts can't come from a website I don't like, so I don't have to read testimonies to know they're false!" But I guess you basically have to discredit in your mind any possible source of contrary evidence in order to avoid to engaging with ideas that might make your fragile worldview fall apart.
I would give you more reliable sources, e.g.,
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/us/sexual-harassment-in-online-gaming-stirs-anger.html
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/mar/06/women.games
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18280000
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/gamers-speaking-sexual-harassment/
http://time.com/3305466/male-female-harassment-online/
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/what-sexual-harassment-does-to-female-gamers.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolpinchefsky/2012/08/03/sexual-harassment-in-videogame-culture/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/10/20/rape-and-death-threats-are-terrorizing-female-gamers-why-havent-men-in-tech-spoken-out/
but apparently you're immune to facts, so hypothesis (iii) is confirmed: you're a fucking moron.
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Your "new" links are either based on the previous articles you posted, or outright the exact same authors again. Brianna Wu is not a victim, she harasses just as much as any other. If anyone calls her out, it's not because she's a woman (heck she wasn't even born as one), but because of her political ideologies she tries to force on everyone else.
You're linking professional "victims".
As for online gaming, everyone gets trash talked. Doesn't mean people hate girls. In fact, I have been "harassed" just as much by girls online than by guys. Actually, some girls are much worse as they tend to get away with it.
Maybe I should write an article about misandry and make BBC write articles about it too.
The only thing this site gets out of these threads is an explosion in blacklisting, which goes against what this site was made for. Oh well.
Oh, nice work with the name calling. Really makes you seem like a great person. Maybe you should learn the concept of source critique.
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Yes, that's clearly the most plausible explanation: every major newspaper has been hoodwinked for a decade by the same professional victims, and you have somehow been lucky enough to see through it all.
And you definitely read all of those articles in the last 5 minutes and formed an educated opinion about them...or maybe the Trump in you just decided to call them "fake news," dismiss them out of hand, and hurriedly crawl back into the cool air of the cave before your snowflake prejudice melts in the sunlight.
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Those articles are old, and I know several of them. If you really want to understand an article, you have to know the author behind it. If you know their political views, you'll quickly see the political narrative they are trying to create in their articles. Maybe you should look into these people. You've used Brianna Wu several times. A person using her own political agendas to be a professional victim and harass others:
Take a look at Soraya Chemaly from Time you linked: "Soraya Chemaly is a media critic and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in politics, religion and popular culture. Her work appears in Salon, CNN, Ms. Magazine, The Guardian, The Huffington Post, RHRealityCheck, Role Reboot and The Feminist Wire." With great articles like "The Everyday Sexism of Women Waiting in Public Toilet Lines".
Jesse Singal from the nymag article you linked are personal friends with Brianna's close friends, and perpetuates their political narratives.
The rest seems to know nothing about gaming and just believe the "victims" for whatever. Superficial "jounalism" at best.
I think you made the mistake of confirmation bias, and forgot to look into who these people are and what their claims are based on. Usually very weak proof, if any at all. Some of these people are pushing a political narrative in a culture war. And damned be whoever gets in their way. For that person is insert usual names like misogynist, racist, bigot, etc.
I'm not denying some girls online are called nasty things, but it goes both ways, and most boys who do those things are just that: Boys who think girls have cooties.
My experiences are that girls get a lot of preferential treatment in online games if anything.
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What about it? Who doesn't want ethics in journalism?
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Oh, a gamergate suporter here? Gamergate wasn't about ethics... I recommend this series of videos. Really insigthful on harassment and gamer culture.
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Yes GamerGate was about ethics. But it got attacked by a political narrative pushing an agenda. Just like Marvel comics has been. I don't like harassment of anyone. But I do want ethics in journalism, whether is gaming journalism, or politics journalism or just general news. Don't you?
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No it wasnΒ΄t. Was a very well documented harassment campaingn.
But you can check my other link. That was a really nasty thing that happened in spain.
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Actually it was quite well documented that most of these "victims" of harassment wasn't actually harassed. Some made their own extra twitter accounts to harass them selves to become victims. Others claimed death threats which was outright dismissed by local police. Don't believe everything you read.
Like I said, GamerGate started about ethics in journalism, because of Nathan Greyson and Zoe Quinn. Not her fault, but definitely his. Then the Gamers are dead articles just proved the point of GamerGate, later with the leak of the GameJournoPro's list. But like I said, it all got muddled up as gamers where attacked by a political culture push. It was pure nonsense.
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So you want corruption and collusion is media. Probably loved how IGN and bough HB as now they can effectively market sub-par games sold there. As there clearly is nothing wrong with that ;D
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That's a straw man. No one wants corruption in media.
We're talking about harassment here. And you can't deny that the gamergate was an awful example of how resourceful harassers can ruin someone's life. If you don't like gamergate as an example, I linked another one.
Harassment in gaming culture (and geek culture in general) is real, and it's our duty to stop it. And street harassment is something to be aware of. So fix your hearts.
Here is another example:
https://kotaku.com/if-you-hear-someone-getting-harassed-in-an-online-game-1796921373
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Also this happened this year.
https://www.greenmangaming.com/newsroom/2017/06/28/gaming-ladies-cancelled/
Harassment is an actual problem in gaming culture
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No it was cancelled because it violated Spains sexism laws by excluding men.
You want to know what was actually cancelled because of harassment? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fine_Young_Capitalists
An organization trying to get women to make video games. You know who was responsible for getting it cancelled? Other women.
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It was cancelled because the threats. You have the statement of KING (the sponsor) on the link that I've provided. Please don't bring false arguments to the conversation.
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Are well known by being huge trolls. Almost all are deep into trolling. For some reasons you can get in, only by invite, and when they get invites, users usually sell them.
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What I said then. Harassment is a real problem, that has real consequences, like an army of mysoginist trolls forcing to cancel an event.
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Or an army of misandrist trolls cancelling free speech events? See idiotic behaviour goes both ways. But political motives are usually a lot worse than blatant trolling.
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You don't have free speech to defend ilegal, racist or sexist behavior. That's not how it works free speech.
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Actually, you do in most western countries. But again, it depends on the laws in the different countries.
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Isn't that entirely the point of it? At least in the USA... Europe is rather lacking...
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No you can't defend illegal acts. It's called incitement, and it's a crime.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incitement_to_ethnic_or_racial_hatred
But we're not discussing semantics, or free speech, we're discussing harassment, wich is a real problem that some people doesn't want to acknowledge.
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You're really grasping at straws if you believe this is a topic about "feminist politics."
To most of us, I'd imagine it's just good, common sense and decency.
There's a dude who's suffering from Lyme disease here on the forums. Maybe you should run over there and ask why he's got a thread when gamers aren't exactly known for suffering from Lyme disease. See how well that's received. While you're out and about, run over to MeeMesmo's thread and ask him why he posted that one and why it belongs here? Hell, it's even the same topic as this one, but about men being harassed.
So remind me again - who's here to start shit? Yeah, I thought as much.
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"To most of us, I'd imagine it's just good, common sense and decency."
This
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The person who wants to start lecturing people because of a personal anecdote?
The videos she linked was very much from feminists pulling a political narrative they supported. Those links ARE feminist politics.
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There are 7 billion+ people in the world. When you include all of it, everything is a trend. This thread is based on a personal anecdote either way.
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Tyrion=reasonable people
Joffrey=you and others like you
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So it's both an ad hominem attack AND a threat? Hmm what if I am a women? Would your post be acceptable then?
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Your attempt to obfuscate is adorable. For the record I don't even like the OP that much, but to deny that harassment (especially towards female-bodied people) happens on a daily basis is the height of ignorance. I've been with people and witnessed it, in both my native country and elsewhere, and have a sister to whom it's happened in her job as an attorney in one of the biggest cities in the USA.
In this situation there are no politics, no agendas, just an honest request to respect fellow human beings. I pity you if you cannot see that.
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Harassment happens to everyone in different ways and to a different degree, especially depending on the country. I'm not denying anyone anything. But why does she lecture everyone about it, rather than the people actually doing it?
Respect and treating each other well are always something to strive for. I don't see anyone advocating for anything else in here.
Doesn't change the fact you compared me to a psycho murderer and advocated that I get beaten. Again, what if I was a woman and you sent that?
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But why does she lecture everyone about it, rather than the people actually doing it?
did you read what i said?
I know I probably won't convince anyone catcalling to stop by posting this (it doesn't hurt to try), but if your friends or co-workers do it, you can persuade or talk to them and see if they get it. There's nothing worse than being in a group of friends and allowing them to act like idiots.
what do you expect me to do, gather people at a "harassers united meeting" and talk to them?
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You tell off the idiot doing the bad deed instead of lecturing everyone else not involved in it. I get it's nice to get out some frustrations, but just writing about what happened should be enough in that regard.
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So it's both an ad hominem attack AND a threat?
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If you really feel Khazadson is threatening you, feel free to file a ticket.
I'd pay to see the look on the mod's face that answers that one, and I'd be willing to bet it looks just like the gif I posted.
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You think the reaction by you and that mod would be the same if it was against a girl? Just pointing out the double standards and hypocrisy here.
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OK, so it's the videos that set you off.. Let's assume that's true. Are you discrediting the OP due to "feminism" or are you denying that cat-calling and street harassment is an issue? Because let's be real - that's what this topic is about - saying "Hey! This shit happens. Stop doing it if you are, or say something about it if you see it. Let's end it."
And what about the rest of what you said? And how about the rest of what I addressed? Surely if a couple videos linked in a very long thread about cat-calling make that topic "inappropriate" for SG, then the other threads I've mentioned don't belong here either, right? Your initial premise was "this doesn't apply to gamers!", wasn't it?
But sure, you're not going to bother with those threads. And the dozens just like them. You chose this one, and that's cool - whatever floats your boat. But don't toss up some bullshit pretense as an excuse for saying it doesn't belong here. It belongs here as much as any of those other threads.
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I'm saying personal experiences are very subjective. What's harassment to one might be a complement to another. I'm sure she felt very uncomfortable about the situation and that is completely fine. But I don't get why her anecdote needs to be posted in here or why she feels the need to lecture everyone in here like it's a misogyny thing. Girls cat call just as much, if not more here in the weekends out in town. So what? Tell them to shut up and go away and move on.
The problem in her anecdote is not the cat calling but that he might have attacked her. But that is something completely different, don't you think?
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Now you're changing your motive for posting. Before, it was "feminism!" and "this doesn't apply to gamers!"
Anyway, I've made my point. Take care.
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It's almost as if context can be more than one thing at a time. Huh.
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It IS purely about feminist propaganda and politics, proof being the debate we're all having. This is responsible for really shitty and toxic forum environment up to the point EVEN Neogaf got rid of it.
Calling "catcalling" anything to be concerned about, is not an actual topic like actual rape, assault, discrimination in fact, it is exactly feminist propaganda.
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I was wondering when you'd show up and start screaming "feminism!"
Sorry, someone else beat you to it.
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You mean many people, in fact the vast majority. It will hurt the day we'll realise it and then egalitarists like me will have to pick-up the pieces.
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I'm sure you'll find some other "cause" to champion, and we'll all thank you for your infinite wisdom for that one, too.
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I know I shouldn't - but I am glad that I am not the only one who apparently triggered this person without meaning to
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/B25wN7l
do they normally do this? I just want to know to see if I should bother replying any more - or just let it lie
cause I was always taught to treat others as you would like to be treated - so screaming out show us your tits love isomething I try my best to keep in my head - well or any other body part I might have wanted to look at that is :)
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Given I'm literally a "champion" of egalitarism and occasionally recognised as such, and that being a feminism you are not egalitarian in any way, I'm returning the compliment.
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This is a forum for people, who happen to be gamers, and it hosts many topics which aren't directly related to games. I don't see any problem with that. People who feel part of a community often post to discuss things which matter to them which aren't directly related to the site. For example I posted about the recent death of my father, and got nice responses, and that has little to do with SG (okay, he did die playing a game on his PC, so there's that). People are allowed to vent, to ask for help, and all other things which a community can help with. As long as they aren't nasty to others, I'd say anything goes.
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I don't have any friends and i avoid girls IRL at all costs so I guess this isn't really relevant to me as I've never witnessed anything like this happen before. Well, unless that one time I went to walmart and a blonde girl and her friends started chasing me around and grabbing my butt and yelling weird things at me counts. Iunno. If that's the same thing then I don't mind the yelling weird things but the touching part was a bit creepy and unwarranted.
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Sigh, I really want to not have to care about politics and the world and just ignore all the problems, but everyone else instead of ignoring them just claims they don't exist with the stupidest arguments ever. Stupid people on the internet are gonna turn me into a radical leftist, I swear.
How tf is "some men are shitty, don't be shitty, if people you know are shittt, explain to them how they are" so controversial.
I don't go out much so I don't get catcalled much, the only time I can honestly think of is at Virginia Beach with my mom when some drunk dude rode up to us with his friends and yelled at us to suck his dick.
I don't really find comments like this offensive. I could just laugh them off as a gross thing and tell 'em to fuck off on the internet, but in real life, this shit makes me feel incredibly unsafe. Murder and assaults towards trans women aren't uncommon in the DMV area, and sexual assualt, rape, or violence as retribution I'm sure are concerns of other women.
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"yelled at us to suck his dick" that's not catcalled, that's verbal assault, in other terms, just vulgarity or insult. The fuck are we going to do, police the language with drone to get rid of half of the dictionary thanks to feminism?
the problem is in fact that it's being compared to actual sexual assault which in turn is compared to worse which is rape or violence. this is dangerous, this is also too late.
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Catcalling is making sexual comments at a woman, having someone ask you to suck their dick fits into that.
And no, this is what we are gonna do, explain why it's bad to people which will hopefully change a few minds. Not nearly enough buy it's something.
On your last point, sexual assualt is voilence. Also it's not being compared to it, but the type of people who do those things are alao the type to catcall. So when you're catcalled and followed, or a car pulls up and makes a lewd comment, those are legitimate fears.
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How tf is "some men are shitty, don't be shitty, if people you know are shittt, explain to them how they are" so controversial.
I liked this. Kudos to you. :)
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Hahahahahah why is this still up? ahaahhaahah.
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So as someone whose lived more inside their home than outside for a majority of their life (Schooled from home from 4th grade through 12th, and only now that I'm in college am I back in the real world), I'm not quite sure what the line is between catcalling and compliments.
When I see something that tends to stick out to me on someone (dude or gal) I tend to say stuff like "I like your [insert article of clothing/object here]" or "That {insert article of clothing/object here] Is pretty nice looking, where'd you get it?". Is that catcalling? or am I missing the point altogether?
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No it's a nice compliment.
Catcalling is more : "hey "insult" do you want to "bad word" ?" Something like this. :p
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feminism has destroyed language: what your are talking about is verbal assault, aka vulgarity and insult, while catcalling is just that, shouting a "meow" with a compliment, phrases in a direct, sexual or physical manner, not an insult or an assault.
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anything shouted at you - even meow - without request, could be classified as verbal assault - also cat calling is a common use phrase that means many things in different countries (Cat-calling is just the phrase that has been assigned to it as a whole - irrespective of the fact that it came from a single action originally)
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No, fuck your anti-science and semantic denial: cat-calling is and as always been an unsolicited but non-aggressive interaction between persons, until it becomes verbal assaults which in this case as to be stated by the plaintiff.
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wow - what a potty mouth you are - I think you went full nasty without need right there - in your opinion it is what you stated, and in my opinon it is what I stated - as a person who has been on the receiving end of it, I know exactly what I consider to be cat calling in my country and would hope that you could be more respectful with your replies in the future :)
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This was not directed at you, and I would advise not to be sensitive to vulgarity, but I can understand and respect it.
Wether you consider something "catcalling" or not doesn't make law, because that precisely when respect, freedom and protection disappears.
I'm not insensitive, I know very well that receive "compliments" based solely on looks and physical all-day long is an actual devaluation and lack of consideration for people as person first instead of sexual prospect (or prey) first.
But that's the hidden and most important point of this whole harassment debate: there's a huge factual inequality between men and women in terms of social sexual consideration (men are as objectified and way more discriminated by their looks since there's no pity for short, thin, bald or fat, then right away considered in superficial traits like success, popularity, money...while women are objectified first but accepted in much broader look attribute save for racism, then after only considered in terms of personality, interest, humour, care etc...) but most of most importantly in terms of relations and access to sex (depending on where you live, men are expected to always do almost 100% of the approach, they have to do all the "argumentation" in every little details, from looks, to attitude, posture, voice, sight then everything they say, and then they're the one ho have to perform in bed. Women have non of these problem, even though through medias objectification they're constantly pressured about their physics/looks). The results is that there tons more men suffering from loneliness, sexual misery or even suicide.
That difference is what makes it so that not only will the point of unsolicited approach, harassement, assault or even manipulation not stop as it is a "necessity" until there's equality on that front too.
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Just to clarify, cos this is getting a bit complex:
Your original point is that cat-calling used to be a very specific term but now just about anything is called cat-calling, right?
Cat calling is the unsolicited use of compliments, pick-up lines, whistling and hissing to get a person's, most often a woman's, attention. But these days somehow verbal assault is called cat-calling too, while there used to be a clear distinction.
Just like chivalry now gets no reaction at all, or a whispered "Creep..." or the memetastic "I have a boyfriend".
Being overly PC, a fear of being called a racist, and adverse reactions to niceties are all not helping in keeping our societies social. :/
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They're making things worse indeed and women will be the first victims of that. But at some point you can't do against people's own stupidity and will to make things worse.
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i'm not sure the fence between insult/sexual compliment is always very strong from the harasser's point of view XD
The thread reminds me a very good (old 1980') sketch from some excellent french comedians.
https://youtu.be/jAViBZ9VBd0?t=3m40s
Translation attempt :
- Hey miss ! Do want dinner at home (chez moi) or at chinese restaurant (chinois) ?
Hey miss ! Hey the slut there !!! Hey i'm talking to you !!! Woo she has no humor. - Yeah women have no humor yeah... The most important is how you fuck. The most important is to find G point.
- Yeah of course of course... But what is G point ?
- When you are in G point you know the girl is yelling and yelling.
- Yeah. And the Sweden girl yesterday ?
- Well, i went until F point.
Etc etc.
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yeah I am often reminded of the ones where they shout at you then ask you out, while complimenting you, but when you say no (even thanking them FFS) - they then start saying what are you a F'ing frigid dyke Beech - that one is allways fun - but it does tend to show you that you have made the right choice and showed their true nature
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Yeah that's what i mean.
A guy who just compliment should not be bothered for this.
But in some harassers' head, the fence between compliment and insult is very thin and they easily slip from :
Hey girl + nice joke or Hey girl + compliment
to
Hey slut i'm talking to you !
That's it :p
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That's exactly the difference between catcalling, which can be as simple as unsolicited compliment, and we'll never be illegal unless we continue falling into a dystopian censorship with thought police, and clear straight-up insult and verbal abuse.
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I never said anthing about legality - a verbal assault can be perfectly legal if not taken further - as you just proved with your nasty 'comments above (what was it F your anti-science and semantic denial - nice I don't think) - what I am talking about is morality - which you just showed that you have lost some of that; as for feminism, I have not mentioned it at all, so you can keep mistaking that all you like :)
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Even confusing a statement about anti-science as being "nasty" is anti-science. You're basically saying "the earth is flat, because otherwise it hurts my feeling". In fact you mentioning morality in vague terms further pushes this point: how do you define morality if not base on common "habeas corpus", actual social science and legal grounds, can become anything from fascistic moral and censorship to bigotry and discrimination when this gets rejected.
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hmmmmm - you still seem to have little grasp on that morality it seems - and appear to be confusing my wish to not be subjected to the immorality of those you appear to be defending, with wanting to understand your grasp on that morality.
So I will leave you to that branch on your own I think, as I sense that I could not shift you from it even if I wanted to - but I do thank you for being less rude in your reply - it was appreciated.
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I actually replied at length to your other common in which I hopefully provide a bit more precise arguments.
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that is generally just asking a question :) - where we live cat-calling tends to come in the form of love your tits darling, shouted at you as you wander by (no respects given - I mean would they do that to their mother) - but that is just one form of cat-calling - there are others that are worse :)
actually, the more I think about it they might actually do that to their mother - they apparently have no self control :) - now I have to start work :( chat later :)
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you're targeting clothes or accessories, i see nothing wrong with that. i've got asked or complimented many times for clothes i'm wearing, even my hair. the problem is when that comments comes with a proposition or an insinuation. the classic "hi lady" sounds harmless and innocent, but i never see that kind of people saying "hi sir". they only target women for a reason.
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Supposedly "Hi Lady" is cat calling. I live in England and that's a common thing. It's just being friendly. Although people say "Hi Love instead of lady. If this is what happens on a daily basis... it's not cat calling and if that's what scares he to go outside. Get thicker skin because people have mouths and they like to talk. We are social animals it happens.
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not got a problem with that - just the dirtier ones on a saturday night from people who apparently cannot control themselves :) - where I am we say hi duck or hi love as an introduction; not as a cat call - to be honest I haven't suffered too much from it as I got older (thank god)
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Where I live we say ayupmi duck, cheers duck all the time it's how we speak around here, it's how we say hello or thanks.
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Where I live almost anyone you meet in the street forces you to lie...
I really don't understand why they use "How are you?" as a greeting...
I used to take it too literal and reply "Good good, yourself?"
Now I just reply with "How are you?" which seems to be the more proper response (how silly is that), or a tell the truth like "Pretty bad actually, when I left home I didn't have to do a #2, but I think all this walking has started a bowel movement and..." and watch them increase their speed to get the hell away :P
/weirdness
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A whole bunch of babbling thoughts up in here. Sorry for the sloppy response :P
Catcalling kind of operates on scale of severity, depending on whether the caller is well-meaning but clumsy, obnoxiously friendly and assumes they're being more charming than they are, or just an outright assclown being skeezy. In your case it doesn't sound like you're trying to pull a random hook-up with a stranger and you're not intruding on their space or hounding them, so I doubt it falls into the same category.
There's a big gray area that does depend on the social graces of the person initiating the whole thing, but the term catcalling is usually reserved for the more dismissive or objectifying remarks. The typical old british stereotypical example is "Nice tits/ass, love!" called at a short distance, usually accompanied by a wolf whistle, from a group of men direction attention and a solo woman. The worst examples come with passive intimidation, hounding, and then outright insults if they get no response or a rejection, like following someone in a car, repeatedly complimenting them and telling them to get in, and then getting increasingly angry the more they are refused or ignored. Some people do it calculatingly, though most of it is just immature morons failing to get the whole social thing, heh.
That said, even the milder or totally innocent stuff can get bad reactions if the target is of a more meek disposition, or if they don't trust how you look, or if they're just not in a good mood (or naturally if this is a recurring thing). When it comes to these things, it's usually best to consider that you don't know the person and not all peoples humors are the same. A lot of people scoffing at the idea in this thread overlook the severity and how regular it can happen, depending on where a person lives. The way I see it, even a well-meaning risk isn't worth it for a walk-by stranger, because while it might seem like just one annoying hiccup they can brush off, it might actually be just one more annoying hiccup on a big stack of another annoying hiccups. It's awkward when someone tries to offer me a random leaflet when I walk by in public; and it'd be infinitely more awkward if it happened frequently, and (within my immediate perception) only to me. It's sorta like the whole idea of asking a stranger out for a date while they're at work (waitress, bank teller, etc), it's a risk because they're in the middle of doing their own stuff and they can't just walk away. It magnifies the awkwardness.
I mean, it's not all awful horrible stuff, not by any means. It's more that for people like yourself who aren't just being douchebags, and actually have good intentions, it becomes more a matter of gradual but mounting annoyance. I guess a major part of it is reading the signs, perhaps? Some people are just trying to get from point a to point b and have things to do. Others are trying to relax. Some don't actually mind being social. Perhaps in our case, I'd liken it to the difference between a friendly moment between two passing strangers, vs the stranger that initiates an unwanted conversation but then refuses to get the hint when you want to disengage.
In the end it's about respecting boundaries, though not all of this really fits into the catcalling equation. The reason it's an issue is because for some people it's not just a random annoying event, but a recurring thing that factors intimidation/anxiety into it. Where I live it's not really an issue, and usually the onlookers stare down anyone doing it openly.
So yeah, sorry for the spam. Sleep deprivation and shitty articulation got me again. Maybe take this with a pinch of salt too.
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Well, here's a different perspective on the thingy. I used to be best friends with someone who used to do this kind of shit, but to a small extent, i. e. he just bumped me with his elbow very noticeably and started saying extremely loud how "hot this bitch over there" was and whatnot. Now, I'm a completely straight man, don't get me wrong, but even if I'm attracted to someone, I'm just not going to show it to such an extent, as I feel uncomfortable doing so. When I told him how this makes me feel embarrassed every time he does it, and of course, drags me into it too, he couldn't even understand it. The conversation went through familiar phases such as "WOW didn't know you were a fag" and "I didn't do anything awkward", and he couldn't even understand how much he looked like an asshole doing all that. I got him to stop doing it though, but only because I was filming something once he did it, and showed him the woman's reaction from the footage, and reminded him that that's the kind of "fuck you" look that I get too whenever he tried to involve me in his bullshit. He kinda stopped doing it after that, but maybe with just me, who knows.
What I'm saying is, not every one of them are aware that they're doing something completely bad, some do it with good intentions, hard to believe I know. But if you're struggling to tell them that it's not correct, just try and remind them that this kind of stuff is more cringworthy than hoverhands and not being able to maintain eye contact with girls. Maybe they'll get the idea after that, but absolutely no guarantees.
Anyway, just thought I'd share my two cents. Might not be the exact topic, but I felt it was related.
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I wholeheartedly agree with all you said - some are not even aware of it :) - I have a male friend who does it about other men, but did not realise how much he was sexualising it until someone showed him a snapshot of video they did of him - he was mortified bless him (I had tried to tell him, but he did not believe just me). I couldn't care less if people stare, or think things, but I was always taught to keep it to yourself and in your head.
sadly I think I triggered someone for some reason - https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/B25wN7l
but then I told myself I would avoid this thread to avoid just that possibilty - sigh :(
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I can't even imagine calling someone a bitch (even a "hot" one) as a compliment. Somehow I wonder if it's the times we live in, where many people read and say things online and don't need to be immediately accountable. There are certain communities and groups of people online that have normalised vulgar speech as things like 'ironic humour' or 'one-up mocking competitions'. And then these people take that language into the real world - outside of their group - where it's just not as acceptable.
As an aside, remember when people starting saying "lol" in reality too? Now I hear younger people even say things like "smh". It's funny.
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Language is weirdly amorphous, and the memes that come and go are baffling. There was that period where people would passively use "hoes" as a lazy generic term for women, but not always even with negative connotation. Nothing makes you feel old like watching the tides of lingo or buzzwords churn on by.
I picture Inigo Montoya going from "That word, it does not mean what you think it means" eventually over to "Oh, I guess it does now, I guess" with a disappointed look. Heh.
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π Giveaways (moved to top for convenient leeching π):
If you want to share giveaways, please use this template:
copy everything inside the ` (even the opening/closing `grave accents`), edit and and paste it in your reply
Please use the format provided above! It's easier for me to copy-paste multiple giveaways in this thread. π€
It will take me a few days to update the list. To avoid having your giveaway not "showcased" set its duration to more than 5 days (unless you don't care, it's up to you).
Because I'm tired of getting catcalled and watching others in the street receive the same treatment, I decided to share some information with everyone in SG hoping that they can stop doing it and/or talk to their friends to make them reconsider their behavior.
Street harassment is unwanted and unwelcomed public attention, most often directed at women, which is demeaning and damaging. Itβs not a private matter but one that should concern everyone.
If you have trouble empathising with strangers, then think about your mother, sister, or girlfriend. Would you enjoy watching people catcalling and telling them nasty things? How do you think they would feel about it?
On an average day I go out twice and I get at least one guaranteed catcall. On weekends or when I go out, for example to a club, it gets worse because groups of people feel more empowered to do so.
A few months ago I was walking with a friend and one guy said things and started to follow us. After a while it ended with me turning around and pepper-spraying his face, then running away in case he could fight back. This is the kind of violence it generates.
We had a rough rest of the day and were shaken up. I didn't enjoy doing that at all, but he had to be stopped. I also like to think the guy didn't enjoy it either.
So in the end, what did he achieve? Nothing.
Edit
OK, I'm gonna clear this up since some people like to assume things just to blame me for defending myself.
For the backward people, this was in june when I wasn't wearing "provocative shorts and t-shirts" clothes. These are the "nice compliments" I got amongst others i don't even want to repeat here and/or I want to forget:
hey girl nice butt
does your friend wanna F with me too?
hey reply bitch
come here lesbos!
GONNA EAT YOUR ASS
Walked one block with that guy which was 1 meter away from us. He wasn't shouting from the other side of the street, he wasn't half a block away, he wasn't sitting in the sidewalk. He was right behind us.
He got warned to leave us alone during the whole 1-block fast-paced walk. I didn't stop to "discuss" because I'm not a 1.9 meters 120kg guy, so I'm not putting my friend and I at risk at 8:30pm in the street.
You read the "You're not alone" thread?
Well, most of the stuff that I shared about me is linked directly to an experience related to this, but I wasn't walking with a friend and there were two guys instead of one following me. You can guess what happened next since I wasn't able to defend myself.
But of course, street harassment is harmless and nothing else can go wrong, nor it can trigger unhappy memories from past experiences.
Think a bit before judging others so quickly assuming they overreact when they feel in danger.~
I know I probably won't convince anyone catcalling to stop by posting this (it doesn't hurt to try), but if your friends or co-workers do it, you can persuade or talk to them and see if they get it. There's nothing worse than being in a group of friends and allowing them to act like idiots.
It's disgusting and demeaning, stop it. You're hurting people with your actions and makes you look like a fool.
β€οΈοΈ FAQ, in case you're gonna post one of these comments I get all the time.
- But some women like to be catcalled!
Yes, there's also men that like to get hit in the face with a hammer. So using the same logic, I should go out and hit all men with a hammer in hopes they enjoy it?
- Don't be so sensitive, ignore it.
No, it reaches a point it can't be ignored. It's not an isolated issue once per month or in certain situations so you can avoid it. It also affects me a lot depending on my mood, so when you feel like crap and you get catcalled, things get worse.
- So you want others to come to your rescue when some stranger catcalls you? That will end up with me getting in a fight!
I'm not asking people to fight for me, just them to stop doing it, spread the word, and discourage people in their group of friends from being disrespectful.
- If you don't want to get catcalled, dress appropriately!
1: Don't blame the victim.
2: I dress as I please. It's my body, not someone else's.
3: It doesn't matter if it's winter and I'm wearing a jacket, or summer with shorts and a t-shirt. Some people will be idiots anyway and say things.
- I bet you like it when a handsome guy catcalls you!
Irrelevant. I expect respect from everyone.
- What about men? They also get harassed!
I'm very aware guys also get harassed by both men and women, but this thread is about girls. Feel free to create another thread for that issue, and I will support it.
- So this is just a misandrist rant!
It's not. If you feel targeted by anything I said, then it's not because you're a man, it's because you actions ressemble what it's said here.
- Meh, it could be worse.
It could be worse, but it SHOULD be better. Also, normalizing this behavior makes it even more painful for victims.
- Women also catcall!
I never said they don't, but for each woman that catcalls me, i get 500 guys. So the issue at hand is the one I shared.
- This thread offends me!
That tells a lot about you. Log off, take your time, and think about it.
- This thread is inappropriate for SG, please close and delete it!
Go tell that to all other threads about awareness, politics, religion, sports, disasters, etc.
π Some info and articles:
Stop Street Harassment
Wikipedia definition
Documenting women's stories of street harassment
Why we need to take street harassment seriously
Dutch woman faces down her catcallers by posting selfies with them
π Videos:
Au bout de la rue (Court-mΓ©trage) - france
10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman - usa
Woman is filmed walking London's streets for secret documentary - uk
Male actor dresses as woman to experience sexual harassment - egypt
Sons React to Their Moms Getting Catcalled - usa
π And some pictures:
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