I do. And I heard that they also have a fantastic system named "Butler" to upload builds. Yet they didn't convince me as gamer to create an account yet.
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Aaaand this is the reason itch is not a competition to steam.
Never heard from any dev that they're selling more at itch than they do at steam.
Most "experienced gamer" even today will tell you "is it on steam? no? no thanks, I don't want it even for free".
BUT
New generations are not on steam or do not care about Valve, yet they do play Fortnite and while they make a new steam account every few months, they savor their Fortnite characters...
Could Epic pull it off? Find out Dec 6th.
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and that's basically steamworks game with no big difference to humble widget.
I don't think what Epic is doing will be yet another key seller. I'm pretty sure games will run through their system, download from their servers and so on.
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You don't really understand me. I'm offering both free and commercial games on itch, and have been in touch with dozens if not hundreds of developers. No one is selling enough to survive there. That was my ONLY point.
Everything else about itch is great. But it has no customer base. That makes it "not a competition" for steam, which makes it invisible to steam, which makes valve not implement some of their great ideas and so on.
Epic might have a chance to... push valve into evolving steam. for the better.
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HL2 didn't last forever... CS1.6 didn't last forever... TF2 didn't last forever... a few years ago, people here were fighting over dota2 beta gifts... and nowadays it's seen as "half dead"...
People somehow forget that Valve did this very same thing in 2004-2009, when they locked their games to a in-the-house launcher, then enabled 3rd party games to be bought there too... and our generation just GOT USED TO IT and is now dedicated to "our libraries". I know bunch of people who laughed at Valve then for various reasons.
Sure, Fortnite won't last forever. But today I told my students about Epic opening the store inside Fortnite launcher and they went crazy. Never seen so many teenagers happy they don't have to install steam. Then I told them there will be a free game every 2 weeks if they stick around. You can imagine how that went for kids who don't even have CC yet and leech of the parents (who are distrusting of anything they don't know well... and well, shopping online is sort of a new thing here for most people).
tl,dr. nothing lasts forever but the sky and earth (not really, sun will engulf earth in the future, lol), but that doesn't mean it can't pull enough people in for them to become invested.
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I'm not sure why you think that my intentions were any different to yours. I just added that while they have some well known and appreciated benefits, itchio lacks self-assertion.
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Itch.io is super cool, they let the devs decorate their product pages and they have a nice client, too. I bought a few dozen games there. Never played any of them. Ok, I tried one but it didn't work, so then I bought it on steam and it worked (Sokobond).
But I must say, a cool feature of itch.io is that the dev can include the steam key, so you can effectively buy the game giving more money to the dev and also supporting an indie store without sacrificing anything - plus you also get a drm-free copy, which seems to be important to some people.
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They sure doesnt think costumer satisfaction when its the 25th different game launcher for our convenience. I wish we could just go back in time when the bought product only needed a cd to work.
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I believe that he is underestimating the cost of running a store like this.
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I think they might have a problem if they rely on their Fortnite data only. Different games will have varying cost structures. But they are probably smart enough to have considered a large enough profitability buffer.
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Except when you start to see the 99 cent shovelware/asset-flip games that appear on steam going for 9.99 on that site.
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I'm all for competition and at the same time I'm not moving my lazy ass away from steam, so for most devs it's something like:
- publish only on steam = sell X copies and valve gets 30% cut
- publish on steam and epic = sell circa the same amount of copies and for some (probably very few) sales only lose 12% cut
- publish only on epic = sell a few copies but save on the cut
Easy math, too:
70% of $10 is $7
88% of $0 is $0
PS. Ok, I might log in once every two weeks for a free game that I'll never play.
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Good!
I couldn't care less about more launchers. I will just buy wherever it's cheapest, while using steam to talk to friends, post screeshots, join groups, etc etc.
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Epic Games which is owned by Tencent. Tencent already has a store in China where Steam was blocked. Only the recent trade war has affected Tencent's sales. Its not surprising, Tencent makes the decision to shore up its stores now and with Steam arriving at its shore.
Great for Developers and Gamers I suppose? Cheers, Cruse~
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Tencent owns less than 50% of Epic. And Epic has been working on that store for years, it's not some recent decision by Tencent to react to Steam on the Chinese market.
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Yes, certainly, its not a recent decision. I wont say Epic developed that store for Tencent but Tencent is a major backer and a major factor. What I am implying is it makes perfect sense to push for it. I doubt Epic can take the losses of 12% vs Steam's 30% and also offer free games. Its just time and opportunity in this sense. Overall it should benefit us so we'll wait and see. Like most telcos and companies, they always throw out a good deal to attract customers. Twitch/Amazon, Discord all has its own Store, even Razer. Epic and Tencent is a little late to the scene but with the incentives that might be another attraction. Cheerios~
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So if stores that charge a 30% are marking up their costs by 300 to 400 percent. Doesn't that mean that hey are still marking up their cost by charging 12%, since the cost should be between 7.5% to 10% according to them.
Edit: Something else with this cut, is were would this leave stores like GMG and others that sell keys? If they're forced to charge devs also 12% to compete with Epic then they won't be able to offer as good discounts as they do now. With only a 5% discount they'll be making less than what they get now when they offer a 20% discount.
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Of course, they said that they'd still be profitable. And no developer would expect them to run their store losing money.
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I doubt that stores as GMG demand a high share currently. They don't have any costs besides the payment fees and some limited customer support, after all. They don't host the games, that's what Steam is doing (for free, if Steam key related). So Epic's store won't have a huge impact on their business calculations.
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They don't host the games but their sales are nowhere near close to what Steam is. I remember reading that as of now they're operating at a loss and this thread seems to confirm that, so if they have to lower their earnings per game that might make it harder for them to start turning up profits.
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Your link is broken.
Some stores might always be in trouble, but generally speaking I still don't see why Epic's store should cause any real trouble to their margins.
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Fixed the link.
The point is that if 12% becomes the standard, external stores would have to lower their cut too. And with a lower margin to work with they won't be able to offer good sales to attract customers to their stores. Also since their volumes are lower than the big stores the earnings might not be enough to manage the store.
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Only if other stores would demand more than 12% currently, which I doubt. Otherwise there is no reason why a developer should demand from them to drop their rates too. If stores currently take 10% and Epic would take 12%, a developer would have no reason at all to change their mind about those key stores. Why should they?
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I don't know what's there to doubt. Most stores charge 30% and I think most of the ones that don't charge 30% still charge more than 12%.
How do you think GMG gets to offer 20%-25% off on pre-orders? It's taken from their 30%. If they had to lower their cut to 12% that would only allow them to do 2% to 7% discounts to keep getting the same earnings per game.
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I see what's your problem there. But frankly, that must be a misunderstanding on your behalf. Consider the Steam sales, with their 30% revenue share. By your understanding of what is happening during sales, any discounts beyond 30% would cost Steam money from their own pocket. We'll certainly agree that this can't be true?
Instead the stores have debates with the developers, when they are willed to run a sale with what discount. I can't claim to know all details about their dealings, but the stores certainly don't pay discounts with their own share. Occasionally they might reduce their own margin, for additional coupons or to outdo a competitor selling the same games with the same discounts. But that's it imho.
What I can assure you is that developers take "the losses" from sale discounts, because those are easily compensated by the increased revenue.
I already explained the differences between Steam (and similar stores) and stores simply selling keys. And that's also the reason why they won't get 30%. There is absolutely no reason why they should get as much or why developers would ever want to agree to giving them as much.
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I do know how most sales work, but I'm not talking about those sales. I'm talking about the store wide coupons or the discounts on pre-orders. Yes some part might be from the developers but another part (and probably a big part) comes from GMG's cut. That's why pre-orders only have a 10% off or no discount in other stores but you can get those games with a 20% off and sometimes higher on GMG.
If every store was only getting 12% or 10% as you claim, then why is Epic making such a big deal of only taking 12%?
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They make such a big deal because all key stores combined are still tiny, compared to stores that offer a full service. And that is also the very same reason why Steam doesn't charge anything for sales on third sites. They simply are negligible, compared to their own business.
And for those big stores, such as Steam or Apple, 30% has been a universal ratio, set in stone. That is why it already was such a huge news that Steam dropped their share down to up to 20%. And why it is even bigger news that Epic manages to take just 12%. This simply are revolutionary changes, for a business model that lasted for a decade.
But feel free to explain me why key stores should reasonably manage to demand the very same 30% as Steam or Apple do. What services or revenue of similar value do they have to offer, so that developers would be willed to accept such a share?
Edit: I'll try to take a short nap now, so I won't be able to reply anytime soon. ;)
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Here's Humble Bundle cut. 10% charity + 15% Humble, yes 25% is less than 30%, but definitely more than 12%. Not every store divulges their cut, but it seems to be very accepted by pretty much every one that it tends to be 30% for most. What they offer is their customers and managing the store.
But you seem to be to closed on your thinking so I won't bother with this any further.
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Ahem, no. 15% are Humble's cut and not 15%+10%. Those 15% prove that you can run a key store with such low margin. And there is absolutely no reason to suggest that developers would accept 25% (or 30%) from other stores, simply because they give 10% to charity on Humble.
But I agree that we are stuck, though that is as much true for you as for me.
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Running a digital store is not exactly being WalMart. The largest percentage of personnel is probably the tech support people. (Except at Valve, where it is two baboons in front of three buttons with pre-determined "fuck off" messages for replies.) If they can cover server upkeep, it does not need much money to operate, so profitability can still be good.
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If they want the big games from other publishers on their store, they'll have no other choice but to do regional pricing.
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Hopefully. So far, all these stores only offers exclusivity (only on origin, blizzard, etc.).
Not the kind of competition I'm hoping for...
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people acting like developers/publishers don't pay the same fees to MS or Sony for releasing their games on Xbone or PS4.. it's the same baseline 30%.. new store fronts for PC games is just idiotic, as it spreads games too thin, nobody wants to have a bunch of launchers on their pc.. I already have Origin, Uplay, Steam. GOG, and numerous other launchers for various MMO's and things like that..
Obviously the developers/publishers want to take a bigger cut, but ultimately the reason most games are on steam is because of exposure....
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The fact that you have Origin, Uplay and Steam already proves that people accept multiple game stores without problem (even if they complain).
A lot of people want a curated store, which Steam isn't, which has the latest AAA games (which GOG doesn't) and isn't publisher specific (like Origin or Uplay). Can Epic supply this? We can't yet say, but there's no other real alternative yet.
AAA games don't lack exposure.
Giving away free games is a good way to get users. How that would translate to sales will depend on how good the platform will be, and what kind of other promotions will happen on it. With publishers getting a better deal, they could pass some of that to buyers. A game could cost $60 on Steam, $55 on the Epic store, and still the publisher would make significantly more on the Epic store.
Edit: Upon reading further, Epic doesn't plan to curate beyond adult titles, so it may not be what people want. They'd have the same discoverablity problems as on Steam and would have to solve them.
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I only have Origin installed because I got games during the Humble Origin Bundle and redeemed the keys.. Also my kid plays The Sims.. if it wasn't for that, I'd not use Origin.. I also get disturbed by the way games I own seem to have disappeared off of there.. Like Mirror's edge, I got it from the Bundle and the game is now no longer on my account..
uplay I enjoy, actually more then steam, for the positives they have,, like rewards,, then again they just announced they are putting a time limit on how long you can horde coins.. so the one real positive I had for that store is getting nerfed.. I purchased games specifically because I can unlock coins on Uplay for them, I also don't like being forced to spend my points by X date or they expire..
As far as the other launchers, I don't care for them at all. just more stuff taking up space on my harddrive.. Even GOG which I bought 2 or 3 games from just because they weren't available on steam, Wish all my games were set up in a single launcher,
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It is a bit different. For the console companies, those 30% royalties is what actually makes profit. The hardware is sold usually under or around manufacturing price, this is why "consoles are cheap".
Also, there, it is much worse, there are also fees for posting on the digital stores, fees for submitting a patch, fees for everything.
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Not on the Xbox side, far as I can see. Been looking at Xbox development, and apart from a very small dev fee ($19), and having to own an Xbox, I don't see there being anything else. And in fact if you get accepted as an indie dev (instead of just writing for the Creators Collection), Microsoft gives you two dev kits for free.
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you need to do more research, Xbox and Sony both have licensing fee's they charge publishers/developers, that fee is 30%, then they charge for any patches after the first free patch.. Then they charge other fees and things.. You also have to pay to get them to certify your patch, then pay again if your patch fails certification.. All things developers can do absolutely free on the PC..
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Doing more research, it looks like Microsoft dropped the update fees in 2013.
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which is my point, why is steam taking 30% so bad when console makers are taking 30 % as well.. Heck on consoles as you said, you're paying for just about anything, know how many console games stay broken because the devs didn't put out a second patch to fix the things the first one broke..
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Hmm, a valiant effort, for sure. Whether or not it fails, only time will tell.
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still cant bring myself to care enough for their launcher or service
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Alternative stores are always good, but the anti-Volvo brigade is going to be unbearable with this news. :P
On a more relevant news though, I'll stick with Steam for now, due to my preference of keeping my games in 1 place rather than multiple launchers. Plus, regional pricing in Steam.
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Unreal 3 confirmed!
Um, anyway, free games are free games.
I see this store as a positive development, but let's see how it ends up.
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While competition is always nice, they're not going to succeed in being any real threat to Steam.
https://www.fortressofdoors.com/so-you-want-to-compete-with-steam/
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Good summary in that article. And also covers some aspects I debated with drbeckett above, about earning the 30% cut. ;)
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Humble takes 25%, which is still double what Epic plans.
Frankly, the article is wrong. I mean, it's right in that it's hard to beat Steam, but it's wrong in that opening your own store is a losing proposition and you'll fail even if you take a very small cut. Just looking at the large number of competing stores makes it quite obvious that developers have no problem publishing to any store and that many players will buy where the lowest price is, even if the store isn't that great.
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Once again, Humble takes 15% and not 25%, for itself. Only the 15% are relevant, as we judge the business model for a key store.
And I expect a developer, with years of experience in dealing with stores, to have a better knowledge on topic than we do.
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The cut is 75%/15%/10% if you want to be pedantic, but it's still 75% to the devs vs. 88% in the Epic store (and even better deal for Unreal Engine games).
I'd expect a small indie dev to have a very myopic understanding of the issue.
Sure, at some level he's right. But he's mostly wrong. Key stores are a dime a dozen, and probably most of them making money off it. Stores with their own clients and downloads are a different thing, but we're talking Epic, which already has the infrastructure for distributing games, for selling and for support, and huge coffers to spend on bribing both publishers and users.
That article is a good read for indies who want to open stores, but I don't think it's relevant.
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From a customer's standpoint, it practically does not matter how much the store takes, and how much the developers get. I am willing to argue that >99% of Steam's userbase is not aware of how the money they pay is split.
From a developer's standpoint, your wording of "double" creates a very misleading idea. To be more correct, it is not important how much the store takes, it is important how much you get. And in that sense, you only lose 15%, not half.
Further, your argument is rather baseless.
With the exception of Itch (due to their nonexistent barrier of entry), there is no store that even comes close to the amount of games that Steam has. If developers had no problems publishing to any store, they would, yet they don't. And for developers and games that are on multiple stores, it is not entirely uncommon for the non-steam version to be out-of-date.
Although I don't have data for this, just from my personal experience, and what I've heard, a lot of people dislike having their games scattered everywhere, having multiple clients, and a lot even flat out refusing to buy something not on Steam, probably for the aforementioned reasons.
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there is no store that even comes close to the amount of games that Steam has
True, but many people consider that a down side for Steam. Having a store with even basic curation might have its appeal.
In any case, most steam key stores do have the AAA, AA and known indie games. While giving keys is a lot easier than tailoring a version for a store, big and medium devs/publishers will likely not see this as a significant hurdle.
I think that a lot of devs will be checking the waters. Of course it will depend on how many people buy at the store, but devs certainly aren't averse to enlarging their market.
As for buyers, there are a lot of Fortnite players on PC who already have the Epic client installed. So there's less of a barrier there than installing other clients.
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I don't think most people are willing to give up their steam libraries to go onto another platform.. GOG had the right idea by letting people merge their libraries albeit a few games at a time..
Now if Epic could let people merge their accounts they'd have a far better shot, but doing that would require lots of red tape, which is ultimately why GOG only offers a hand full of games very four months..
Even with lots of fortnight players already having the launcher installed, they likely already have the steam launcher installed as well, and alot are only playing on the Fortnight launcher because the game isn't available on steam.. If it was available on steam, they'd launch the game from there instead..
Only way they'd be able to gain a foothold on steam is if they can offer better sales then steam.. as most gamers will buy crap where it's the cheapest.. I doubt they'd be able to offer much bigger discounts on games then steam is already offering.. Even the bundle sites mostly can only take the price a dollar or two off AAA games for short sales.. Unless they are willing to forgo alot of profit to offer tremendous deals, and VERY OFTEN, they just aren't going to get the foothold needed to be anything other than another annoying launcher people have to use to play some games..
Also they would for sure need to get in bed with bundle sites to offer keys to their launchers.. The more people have games on their launcher, the more likely they are going to be to use said launcher..
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Short summary:
- Store will start curated but open up in mid-2019. There will still be a quality threshold, both for technical aspects and content. Adult content will be curated.
- No forums.
- Users will be able to privately communicate with devs for support / bug reports.
- Games will have reviews only if the devs opt-in for that.
- No quibble refunds within 14 days.
- No store-wide DRM. Developers can supply their own DRM.
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Adult content will be curated. - Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddddddddddddddd
No forums. - Like, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
Games will have reviews only if the devs opt-in for that. - Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad
So far, my interest in this store has dropped. Well, I'll be probably getting the free games, though.
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no forums and reviews only if the developer opts in.. Quality control... outside of Technical aspects, I really don't want talking heads to be deciding what content I should or shouldn't be playing..
Why not have a forum for users to come together and post issues with technical questions, or issues with gameplay, or just generally discuss the game.. sounds counter productive..
Also steam reviews are helpful, especially when a game is tanked in Negative or positive reviews, you can see what does or doesn't work.. Sure they aren't the be all end all of whether or not someone should buy a game, they can give a really good indication if you're prone to looking at trends.. ESpecially for times when Developers pull shady moves..
Also if by curated adult content means they'll exclude certain content because of AC, that's kind of counter productive to what me as an adult man wants.. I don't need someone else telling me what is or isn't images or videos I should be seeing in my games.. eff that..
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Anybody that starts a new storefront at this point is dumb. There are already too many out there.
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As both a gamer and a developer I'm quite happy about the announcement. Of course some details are missing, regarding having your games put up for sale there, but I'd say my initial reaction is positive.
Epic Games took quite a dev friendly approach with their low-ish cut compared to Steam. Nice to see some big company basically call out Steam on their 30% bullshit. Anyway, I think we'll have to wait for the launch and see how it goes and how it works to formulate more opinions. But in general I think that's good news, more competition is better for the customers.
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That's not epic games that's tancent... They had a huge controversy regarding stealing customer's sensetive information.No one will trust this new store.What is more steam has already lowered their price for the big guns and they will also work along with indie developer. What is more, every friend i have already using steam and has a huge library in steam. Battlenet , Gog , origin are good for some of their exclusive games but the main priority is still steam.One last thing about the 30% cut , all other major platforms like xbox live and PlayStation Network take 30% cut. That is the standard for the big networks.
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No one will trust this new store.
You mean, like the 200 million players of Fortnite don't trust it?
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Implying that a sizable fraction of those players would care in the slightest about the new store.
Look at how Discord's store fared. Grand opening, and the feedback from users was that the new store was annoying their Discord experience and they wanted to hide the entire thing.
Sure, there's going to be people who do like it and welcome it, but that is not going to be a significant percentage.
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Wasn't implying that in the least (which I think should have been clear from the context). All I meant to say was that Tencent's control of Epic is irrelevant (and probably unknown) to most people, and offered the Fortnite players as proof.
I'd go as far as saying that most people who play Fortnite don't even know Epic, and most people who use Steam don't know Valve.
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One last thing about the 30% cut , all other major platforms like xbox live and PlayStation Network take 30% cut. That is the standard for the big networks.
Yup. Even Google and Apple also take 30% cut. People are so hysterical as if it's not industry standard at all.
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i mean, they absolutely can do this, put together all successful game releases of 2018, red dead redemption 2, COD BO IV, BFV, Mario Party, put them all together, Fornite is still bigger.
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One trick pony doesn't last long. It's just because Battle Royale is the hype at the moment. When it's shifted, there goes their big gun.
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I'll stick to Steam and (partly) GOG because I'm now mostly a Linux user, and those are the only places to find Linux games. Steam in particular is investing in Proton, which shows how much they care about the platform (it may be their alternative once Microsoft starts pushing its store).
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Great for people who still don't have bunch of games on one platform. For me, who spent majority of money on games on Steam, just so all of my games would be at the same place, I won't be buying anything from that place but might check it out.
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The announcement
By far the most interesting part is the split they'll demand, though that topic is naturally more the concern of developers than gamers.
Seems the guy behind Steamspy had been working on this project for some years.
Edit:
So Epic has something nice to convince customers too: Free games!
Source: This interview.
Edit 2:
Another interview with some interesting insights. Namely how Epic calculates the costs.
Edit 3:
You can download the launcher here
Free games list:
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