Good on you for persuading two users to right their wrong-doing rather than just avoid them and leaving them for others to deal with.
Kudos.
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In both cases, it's like it hadn't occurred to them that they could/should fix the problem. I'm not suggesting by this they're stupid, just that what's obvious to you and me ain't obvious to everyone, and that in itself is an insight.
Perhaps site moderators can be convinced to suggest it when handing out suspensions. Because suspensions are clearly not enough.
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I agree whole-heartedly ... I've come across several who didn't realize some things were against the rules, but once told, promptly fixed their mistakes. Besides, it never hurts to try and only takes a minute of our time to do it.
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Yep. Here's to trying, and cheers to those that respond positively.
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Good on ya! People usually tend to get hostile when people make mistakes on here, instead of just explaining things.
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Yep, I've certainly encountered loads of hostility. Thus, this seemed like a bit of a breakthrough worth sharing.
But I do still need to work on being more diplomatic :)
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Say, if I buy a game but I'm not redeeming it at steam
instead, I joining GA for the same game
it's that unethical?
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There have to be giveaways for you to enter for this to be possible, and they will or won't exist independent of your choice to buy a copy.
Also, there's no way to prevent the possibility.
Similarly, choosing NOT to buy a game because you're determined to win it is perfectly ethical, and it's practically equivalent.
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I've done that before for a game I got for really cheap and decided to give it away here but unfortunately never won the game back and I've seen very few giveaways for it since.
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i can't persuade anyone but i got 2 accounts banned last week ❤️
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I'm having a slow week - only a few suspensions.
I had to work 12 hours/day all week though. :P
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LOL. There should be a browser extension that tracks how many suspensions and bans have resulted from your submitted tickets. My attempts to be more diplomatic aside, catching cheaters is almost a game unto itself for me. Better yet, it should be built into the site. There should be Achievements and bounties and stuff, and it should show up in your profile :)
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Nicely done! I dunno about not sending games to people though because if you think about it, that kinda makes you a rule-breaker as well. So you're telling people not to break rules while breaking rules. While I agree with your thought process completely I will disagree on that minor point. I think just the fact that you are willing to tell people how to fix their mistakes is good enough. People don't realise that it is possible to fix your multiple/not-activated wins (I have done so a long time ago) and more than that they have no incentive to do so because they have already been blacklisted by completely random people already. Which creates like a wicked cycle of rule-breaking>suspension>blacklist>rule-break. If they've been suspended, they have already been punished. Someone actually got sort of mad at me for not blacklisting them after I reported them for multiple wins. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It was like they were already used to it and had no motivation to change anything.
What I'm trying to say is thanks for explaining stuffs, that's pretty neat 😸
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All good points.
Yes, I know I am technically breaking the rules by withholding keys from cheaters. Site rules arbitrarily specify one month as the timeframe within which it's valid to request a re-roll to legitimately refuse a key (that is, if a user has an unactivated win in the last month), but I see no reason for that cutoff. My breaking of the rule has a principled rationale behind it, at the very least.
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you can still report people with older non-activations or multi-wins, I've found that more often than not they hadn't been reported yet and I got a reroll
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Yes, I've seen that happen, but not so often.
It's still kind of weirdly arbitrary that moderators could consider anything other making good on unactivated wins a basis for forgiveness. It's like sentencing a thief to jail time, but letting them keep the money or goods they stole.
Only a clean record is a clean record.
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I have something I need to tell you.
I am an ex-'Cheater/Rule-breaker/Witch/Heretic/Paganist' 😈
I was suspended for not-activating a DLC (you won't find any record of the GA the creator or anything related to it now though muahuaha 😼)
You're doing a good thing, just don't be so super sirius about it 😸 I'm pretty sure SG is one of the few places that actually requires you to activate the win on your own account at least that is what I've heard Maybe the 1 month rule or the explanation of the rule needs changing idk, it is really rando 🤔
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you're probably aware, but the user only meant those who don't activate their (free) wins. even I feel that same way because it feels like an awful move, but maybe people just don't know.
one user I reported had 14 non-activations, and then after that it went down to one.. but that one game was Hurtworld and I have strong expectation they traded it on SteamTrades since the same day the user won it there was a thread to trade it. So, in the end I was still disappointed.
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I'm not sure I understand your first point.
On your example, I'd say that's good progress. Hurtworld is not cheap, hasn't been on drastic sale price yet, and hasn't been in a bundle yet (Humble Monthly doesn't count), so I could see it being non-trivial for someone to make good on that mistake. Maybe they still intend to when they can afford it.
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I only meant the only rule you would be breaking is not gifting games to people who don't activate their wins, as opposed to breaking other rules (like not activating what you receive yourself)
yeah, maybe they will someday.
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Thx for clarifying. Yes, I assumed they didn't think all forms of rule-breaking are equally bad.
It's an inevitable consequence of all ethical or lawful systems that punishment (of those who break standards of conduct) is itself going to be a form of rule-breaking. Those that step into the role of judging, whether official or vigilante, have to be extra careful in meeting an ethical justification for their actions.
But there can be no doubt that circumstances do exist where both official or (less often) vigilante justice are warranted. It's a very deep rabbit hole on which we could write many books hashing out the details, but I suspect we agree on the general point.
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Yeah I got that Procedural meant non-activated wins, but even if you look at the examples above 1 person who has been here for almost 3 years received a region-locked gift and still marked it received. If it would have been someone else's GA they probably would have just blacklisted and moved on. Then Timmy would look at that and go, "Wow I got a suspension and got blacklisted by X people. I still don't even understand what happened 🤷" And every time they win a GA they get blacklisted. No one bothering to tell them "hey you should mark that region-restricted gift as NOT received" But it's too late, poor Timmy Why does it always have to be Timmy 🤔 has lost the will to gift and just accepts they are going to be blacklisted over & over again. The End 😿 Even the other person seemed like they had NO idea they could activate the game by buying it on their own i.e. it's not like a permanent "here lies the heretic who chose to not activate their bundle poop" mark.
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Maybe the guide needs a rewrite for rules if that is how people think, I GUESS, but some people don't read in either case, so it's up to YOU to teach them
(the community you.. or Smokey the Bear)
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Good on ya!
By the way, how do you do those nifty boxes? I'm talking about the one in your giveaway. Looks so professional. 😸
(it's okay, I have a thick skin)
I wish I had thick skin too... 😨
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Nifty boxes and other formatting:
https://www.steamgifts.com/about/comment-formatting
I don't write my giveaway text from scratch each time. I copy-paste from a couple of templates, which have evolved over time.
I credit my internet thick skin, such as it is, to many years hanging out on Fark.com, and I guess aging mellows us in general, too. I can still be a special snowflake and get upset sometimes, though ;)
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Guess I'll create a nice couple of templates too. Thanks for the tips!
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tl;dr but I support your point. especially the one about cliques.
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Yeah, it saddens me a little when I look at someone's profile and all their wins and giveaways are groups and invite-only.
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Aww, thanks.
If you look in my giveaways earlier than this week (I wasn't promoting the idea this week), you'll find the way to claim your spot in my whitelist: do at least one giveaway to each of the possible ranks, 0-10. This offer doesn't expire.
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Whoops, crucial detail: PUBLIC giveaways. This is why I copy/paste my giveaway headers. Brain no werk gudd sumtiems :)
Copy/paste:
I will whitelist anyone who has held at least one public GA at each of the possible level restrictions, 0 thru 10, within the last year.
Why do I reward people who do giveaways at all different levels? Because leveling up is a reward for doing GAs, but it means nothing unless there are giveaways to enter at all levels. I reward people who help make that happen. If you qualify, alert me in a comment below, or ping me at any time in the future when you do qualify. This offer does not expire.
FUN FACT: many people are unaware that they can create giveaways above their own level.
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Your giveaway history is visible in your profile: https://www.steamgifts.com/user/Sunshower
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You don't need to, of course. But that's the way onto my whitelist.
If you're making giveaways anyway, it costs you nothing to try setting some to higher levels. You may enjoy the response.
One word of caution: at the very high levels (8, 9, 10), allow your giveaways to run for at least 24 hours to reach the 5 entry minimum that will make it count toward your leveling up. It depends on the game.
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I did the same thing when I first started. I didn't regift but I won a game and gave it to a friend who really wanted it.
I've longed fixed the problem but I still wish someone would have told me how to fix my mistake sooner instead of blacklisting. It's easy to make mistakes when you first start so thanks for giving others a chance :)
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I've always cut people a little slack if their account is less than 2 months old.
I made a couple of dumb mistakes early on, too, and saw that several people had blacklisted me. I made sure I read through the rules after that. It's a safe assumption everyone screws up a little at the beginning. We live and learn.
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I was going to whitelist you for this but it seems that I already had. Good on ya!
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Then I thank you a second time <3
Should we wish to undertake my challenge, the path to get onto my whitelist is simple:
I will whitelist anyone who has held at least one public GA at each of the possible level restrictions, 0 thru 10, within the last year. And yes, you can create giveaways above your own level. This offer does not expire, so contact me by any method if/when you qualify.
Helpful graphic.
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Funny, curious as I am you made me check my public giveaways and it seems I haven't done some higher level giveaways in over a year. I used to do them quite often. Time flies...
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Oh boy does it ever fly. Let me know when you've thrown out some high level love and I'll be pleased to blueheart you.
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Many thanks. See above post for my whitelist challenge.
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i did that once before. but i only try if it's a one game offender and otherwise looks ok ;)
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I'm glad that it worked this time. I hope it continues to. I'll continue to refine my approach.
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Just finished reading.
I agree with your point of vue. I look at all my winners and i have reported a user so far.
Awesome avatar by the way
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That's a fine internet kitten you're sporting, too :)
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Winner of mine registered 8 days ago, since then won 6 (!) public giveaways, including mine, haven't activated 3. I even wrote on his Steam profile that he's new so I'll try to help him out - he has to activate his won games, otherwise he'll get suspended. No response at all :\
Not everyone can be helped.
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Withholding keys from cheaters is against SteamGifts rules regardless of whether we pre-warn those cheaters, just to be clear on that. We just accept the risk as necessary.
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I see. So I'll just try to add them on steam and strike up a casual conversation about their previously unactivated win.
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Probably not necessary. Just be aware that my pre-warning cheaters makes no difference if a Moderator decides I deserve a suspension.
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Alright thanks. And as long as there isn't the risk of getting permanently banned I'm fine with that.
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Permaban seems very doubtful, given the weak punishment regifters get, but I have no idea.
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Please don't encourage users to call out their winners publicly. If a user wants to discuss any past issues with someone's wins, they should do it privately via Steam.
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Frankly, if this site dealt with cheaters more effectively, then honest users wouldn't have to be wasting our time discussing the issue at all.
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I'm not sure how much more effective do you expect us to be when we already issue suspensions for users who violate the site rules.
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A suspension is not persuasive. It's just a brief time out from the site. They come back the next week and do it again. Mostly they get away with it. They get to level up and they take games away from people who actually wanted them, thus enabling them to get even more keys.
At the bare minimum, punishment should require a re-gifter to acquire another key to clear their record. Anything less is like giving a thief jail/probation but not requiring them to give back what they stole. And they have stolen from the honest people of this community. Make them pay it back before they're allowed to play again.
An additional technical suggestion: all keys entered into giveaways should be checked against past keys for duplication. A duplicate key is a regifted key. Penalties can be assessed against the cheater automatically after the key has gone to the new winner. Automating it meaning no more wasting the valuable time and effort of moderators like yourself. That's what computers are for. Yes, this task would eat up a lot of CPU and database load, but it could be prioritized selectively (the less giveaways you've done, the higher the priority of checking your key). It wouldn't stop all cheating, but it would catch the vast majority, including cheating spread across multiple accounts.
And please, don't actively prevent concerned users like myself and others in this thread who are trying to make a positive difference in the absence of effective site policy.
Anecdotally, since I've begin checking every user before sending keys, I estimate that a third of winners in giveaways below level 4 have bad records. A third. Even if my estimate is way off, that's abysmal.
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At the bare minimum, punishment should require a re-gifter to acquire another key to clear their record.
This requirement is currently not present in the site's Terms of Service or Guidelines. Until cg adds it there, we cannot enforce arbitrary rules like that. Make a thread in Bugs/Suggestions, maybe this idea will find support among users.
all keys entered into giveaways should be checked against past keys for duplication
This has been suggested before and cg has expressed interest in implementing something like this in one form or another.
Penalties can be assessed against the cheater automatically
We don't plan to implement automated suspensions at the moment.
don't actively prevent concerned users like myself and others in this thread who are trying to make a positive difference in the absence of effective site policy
We enforce the site rules, one of which states that you're not allowed to call out users in public like this. You can make a positive difference by checking your winners for non-activations and requesting rerolls if they violated the rules. Reroll will be granted if the user did not serve a suspension for his non-activation. However, we do not punish for the same infraction twice. Rerolling giveaways months after the user had already been punished for his non-activation is not something that we can do.
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Make a thread in Bugs/Suggestions, maybe this idea will find support among users.
I will try that.
However, we do not punish for the same infraction twice.
As I explained, suspensions have little or no effect. Currently, therefore, you don't even punish once.
If someone has cheated the site rules, I have no obligation to reward them. My gifts are for honest users only.
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As I explained, suspensions have little or no effect.
I have to disagree. I've issued hundreds of suspensions by this point. Only a small fraction of them are repeat suspensions (where I usually apply an extension). And only a tiny portion of those result in a permanent suspension due to the infraction happening multiple times. The vast majority of users never violate any site rules after their first suspension.
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I accept that you believe what you say, but it's not supported by what I see using sgtools: most re-gifters I see have multiple unactivated wins, and usually those wins are spread over a considerable time period. The possible explanations for this are:
-
there are few users like me who check, and cheaters are not getting caught until after they've cheated many times, or
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cheaters are getting caught and suspended, then cheating again, or
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both of the above.
In all cases, it demonstrates that we are doing a poor job of catching and punishing cheaters. Something has to change.
I know it. You know it. The community knows it. That's why so many of the users who contribute a lot retreat into only doing protected giveaways in groups & their whitelists, or protected behind kludgy sgtools tests, or they just don't do low-level giveaways ever. I participate in this site because I genuinely enjoy giving stuff away, and I think those who don't do giveaways are deserving of a chance at free games just as those of high rank are. But cheaters ruin that for everybody.
Suggestion thread created, by the way: https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/0uN99/suggestion-re-gifters-should-be-required-to-clear-their-record-of-unactivated-wins
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You seem to be making some false assumptions, one of them being that multiple unactivated wins means a repeat offender. When we catch someone who has failed to activate wins, it is not uncommon for them to have more than one instance of the violation. When a suspension occurs, it covers all outstanding infractions. In other words, your measurement of who is a repeat offender and who is not is a bogus one. (For the record, your impression of how we do suspensions is also inaccurate.)
While the Support staff sympathizes with victims of bad behavior, you are not in a position to judge "what is really going on" because you do not have complete information. Your energy would be better spent trying to understand the bigger picture. Remember the three blind men and the elephant? Even if they tried, they would never be able to change the elephant into something matching their perception of it.
As always, the person over whom you have the most control is yourself, and the first person you help to improve his of her behavior should be yourself.
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Thank you for your condescending and information-free response.
I can see that my campaign is doomed, because almost all the opposing responses are from site staff telling me that no problem exists, in spite of the vast majority of users who are reporting a negative and demoralizing experience.
I'm done with supplying giveaways to your awful site, cheat-defender.
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in spite of the vast majority of users who are reporting a negative and demoralizing experience.
You keep saying this, but I do not see any evidence that this is the case. In fact, even your poll on that other thread does not show a "vast majority."
I'm done with supplying giveaways to your awful site, cheat-defender.
I thought you said you "used to mark post-secondary logic"? I wonder how you are going to defend this ad hominem?
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You have a serious misunderstanding of what an ad hominem is.
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Exactly why? You have an idea, jatan said it's not correct. You in response call HIM a cheat-defender.
ad hominem
ad ˈhɒmɪnɛm/
adverb & adjective
1.
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.
You did exactly that, instead of trying to find weak points of arguements or further trying to prove your point, you attacked the person based on not having the same opinion. And not the first time you did in your topics, trying to hide behind mishmash logic to try to legitimate your style.
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rather than the position they are maintaining.
"Cheat defender" is a summary of their position lensed through the very critique I'm offering. Existing rules arguably protect cheaters and the majority of users find this system unjust and ineffective.
Is my argument style direct? Yes. But taking it as a personal insult is being willfully thin-skinned.
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Existing rules are not made by jatan, he does not do actively to defend cheaters. If you don't like the site rules and you're still willingful to attack people who just uphold it, then you're free to leave with your fuck the police attitude. Talk to CG, who makes the rules, and don't attack the people who only uphold the rules.
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I am not arguing with jatan because they're a Moderator. We have taken opposing positions on an issue in a discussion forum, and we are attacking each other's positions.
What you are doing, in fact, is veering away from the topic at hand and trying to make this about me and my character. If only there was a handy Latin phrase for that...
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Hm. This has me considering finally purchasing the one game I failed to activate when I was new to the site years ago.
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AR-K has gone as low as 90% off on Steam. Put it at the top of your wishlist. Next giant Steam sale is in mid-June probably.
Since you outed yourself, I'm not going to report you here.
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I've already been reported and suspended for a week. And reported again and then blacklisted once users found out that I cannot be re-banned for the same missing game.
Anyhoo, nevertheless I just now purchased it. Seems SG tools is gonna take a little while to reflect that. Shrug Cheers.
I never once considered buying it til today. I just shrugged it off since I didn't regift it or pawn it off on G2A or anything, didn't see that I had done any wrong really. Refused to buy it to spite those who blacklisted me simply for the fact. But I like the discussion that happened here. It was civil and made me think. Now I never have to think about it again. Thanks for the thread. Nice to put our adolescent mistakes behind us, eh? =P
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Awesomesauce.
And you are already free and clear on sgtools:
http://www.sgtools.info/nonactivated/Resoula
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It's really nice to hear some people do fix their mistakes. And I'm truly admire your patience and diplomacy. You are doing the right thing, thank you!
Unsure if I can follow though. I even stopped blacklisting, because it feels like too much drama for me. I'm trying to focus on something positive, and just ignore the problems (I still do the rerolls of violator though). I know that it's not the right way, but I'm too tired of fighting.
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This topic is too important to let it slide into oblivion. Bump!
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While the thread originally was suggested by a staff member, it encouraged several users to call out other users, thereby breaking the site rules.
Due to this, after consultation with other staff members we believe the original spirit of the thread as understood by the staff member not to be what actually came to fruition.
While we recognize that some users may have cleared their records in part from this discussion, the main tool that was used was calling out on users giveaways or in the forums, thereby breaking site rules.
Therefore we are closing this thread.
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TL;DR: I persuaded two users to fix their bad SteamGifts histories
This is probably gonna open up a can of worms, but this has made my day and I want to highlight something positive.
I've been increasingly annoyed by re-gifters and other cheaters on this site. This place literally exists to give people free stuff with no strings attached, so cheating in order to get more than your random fair share is way beyond unacceptable.
Blacklisting and reporting cheaters has limited effect. Now I also check every winner's record using sgtools (http://www.sgtools.info/activation) and refuse to send keys to those with unactivated wins, even at risk of getting an account suspension myself (it hasn't happened yet, but it probably will some day). And no, I don't feel good about refusing gifts.
Yes, I could do rule-restricted giveaways with a restriction on the front end but 1) it's a pain in the ass for everyone involved, 2) it puts a burden on honesty, 3) most invite-only or group giveaways will never be seen by those who wanted to win that game, 4) it breeds exclusive cliques, 5) it's a poor substitute for effective site rules, and 6) it's just plain contrary to the spirit of a public giveaway site.
So yesterday, I tried a new approach and it worked. In my not-very-diplomatic way, I suggested to two users with bad records that a solution was to purchase copies of the game(s) missing from their account. And...they did. The giveaway thread in question:
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaway/KH6Gv/approaching-blocks
I realize I'm not always going to get that positive reaction. I realize that not everyone can just throw money at fixing their problem, even when the amount is tiny (I'm poor myself). I realize I still have a long way to go in balancing my hard line and being diplomatic. And I realize some people will think I'm horrible/stupid/naive/wordy, and will blacklist/report/flame me for posting this (it's okay, I have a thick skin).
I wanted to highlight two users who did the right thing.
I wanted to highlight a different approach that seems to work.
And I'm curious what others think.
Hidden giveaway of Bayla Bunny as a thank-you for reading my rambling nonsense:
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaway/v5PsF/bayla-bunny
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