...because it has led to approximately infinite posts saying "Now I have less points, I can enter less giveaways!"

No, you don't, and no, you can't. You have fewer points. You can enter fewer giveaways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed with grammar, and I don't think anyone is stupid for making the mistake - but the fact it's so common is a damning indictment of the western education system. It takes a matter of seconds to explain the rule, but most schools simply don't bother... And genuinely, this is one of the simplest grammar rules that exists. If you're native and don't know the difference, I guarantee that you almost already understand it, purely by instinct.

You'd never say you have "fewer money" than somebody, right? Or you drink "fewer alcohol" during the week compared to weekends?
That's because those are uncountable quantities. And that's the rule. Simple!

You don't have "50 moneys" or drink "10 alcohols", those are uncountable. So, you need to use less - you have less money, and drink less alcohol.
However, you might have 50 points, or enter 10 giveaways, those are countable. So, you need to use fewer - You have fewer points, and enter fewer giveaways.

And that's all there is to it! Easy.

If you don't care, that's just fine by me - but if you'd prefer to be correct, now you can be so.
And here's an obligatory gib.

EDIT: evidently some people feel I'm trying to attack them by making this post - that was never my intention, and I apologise to anyone who felt that way from reading the post above.

6 years ago*

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Thanks for the lesson, sir :)

6 years ago
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It's one, countable, so it's a feweron.

6 years ago
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Because everybody's native language is English right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not obsessed with grammar

Your obsessed

View attached image.
6 years ago
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i couldn't care fewer

6 years ago
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+1 :D

6 years ago
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My sentiments exactly.

If these posters were writing something for publication or a more formal environment than an internet forum about video games, it'd be one thing. As it stands, this is the equivalent of stopping people hanging out in a park to correct them on their grammar.

OP maybe consider playing some video games and talking about those instead

6 years ago
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he is not so wrong for doing it. a bit harsh i thing but correct because i learn the most of my englisch in such environment, and i'm grateful to learn this lesson.

6 years ago
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For ultimate gramar-cringe:

I could care fewer :D

6 years ago
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noooo

6 years ago
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That's exactly what I was thinking! :D

6 years ago
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fever

6 years ago
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Ironically, most people who are speaking English as a second language don't make this mistake, because most language schools teach the rule :D It's English classes at primary and secondary schools for natives that very rarely bother to teach the difference.

6 years ago
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That's indeed a rule I learned no later than during my second year of English lessons... Surprised to hear English schools don't teach this :o But I guess this explains why I see that mistake so commonly

6 years ago
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most people who are speaking English as a second language don't make this mistake

You got a source on that or should I trust you blindly?

6 years ago
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No source, but I think he usado right tho, unless you learn by yourself or your teacher(s) don't really know heck, it is generally always taught, at least I was

6 years ago
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In my opinion the ones who don't bother have the right idea. It's a useless rule. The more people make the "mistake", the sooner it will be declared correct usage. That's what always happens, and that's as it should be. It's senseless to keep wasting people's limited mental resources on rules that are superfluous enough for everyone to understand each other without following them.

6 years ago
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Nobody told me that xD or I wasn't paying attention
So thanks for that lesson :)

6 years ago
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you're*

6 years ago
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That cartoon is brilliant :)

6 years ago
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It doesn't have to be to know this. And in case you didn't, you just learned something.

6 years ago
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6 years ago
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What a strange cat...

6 years ago
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Deleted

This comment was deleted 2 years ago.

6 years ago
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I would like to have one too, that mug is just the best way to remind those grammar rules. :-D

6 years ago
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Your obsessed

Did you do that on purpose just to upset him?

6 years ago
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read the image description

but yes

6 years ago
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Ahhh, missed that. :)

6 years ago
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View attached image.
6 years ago
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Trivia: while Heinz marketing of their condiment as ketchup is largely why ketchup is the dominant spelling today, they originally called it catsup.

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6 years ago
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And not to mention they have very very little tomato's (think they use an extract) in them, and loads of sugar. :p

6 years ago
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6 years ago
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Yeah, a lot of grammar "rules" are completely bogus, and not remotely exact or logical. That doesn't apply to this, though!

6 years ago
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Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that rule :) In german it is the same word for both ;)

6 years ago
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Psssh, how would you know about how many moneys I'm spending or alcohols I'm drinking..... xD

Seriously though, thanks for pointing out the difference, wasn't actually aware and probably made that mistake unconsciously a bunch of times xD

6 years ago
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much*.

6 years ago
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I think he was joking.

6 years ago
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Thanks for the Lesson and the gib. :)

6 years ago
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I mean it kind of depends. In this case "points" is an abstract collection of individual countable things - we have less "points" just like someone would have less "Money", but we also have fewer points just the way someone would have fewer coins or bills... Points in this context is both an abstract uncountable collection of items, and the name for the countable items - just like money is technically countable but actually an abstract term.

You should also note this nice summary from wikipedia:

According to prescriptive grammar, "fewer" should be used (instead of "less") with nouns for countable objects and concepts (discretely quantifiable nouns or count nouns). According to this rule, "less" should be used only with a grammatically singular noun (including mass nouns). However, descriptive grammarians (who describe language as actually used) point out that this rule does not correctly describe the most common usage of today or the past and in fact arose as an incorrect generalization of a personal preference expressed by a grammarian in 1770.

(Check the sources, it's interesting reading.)

So in other words: the less you let this get you worked up the better because grammar rules aren't as clearcut as you may think.

6 years ago
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Yeah, I'm not worked up about it at all - it doesn't annoy me that people don't know the difference, it annoys me that schools don't teach the difference!

I'm not very prescriptive at all with grammar, but the fact that "fewer" sounds so obviously wrong to any native ear when used in sentences which should use "less" demonstrates an exceptionally clear differentiation, from a purely descriptive point of view.

As I said in my OP, if people don't care about making the mistake, neither do I! That said, I know that many people would rather be accurate, and I personally was really annoyed when I learned the rule around the age of 20, because I'm adamant it was never mentioned in any of my English lessons at school.

6 years ago
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But the fact that "fewer" sounds so obviously wrong to any native ear when used in sentences which should use "less" demonstrates an exceptionally clear differentiation, from a purely descriptive point of view.

I don't believe that would be descriptive at all. Especially if you never learned this rule until the age of 20, that is a clear sign that this usage is prescriptive in nature. What you have recognized is why the rule was invented in the first place.

The word "fewer" is derived from the word "few" from the Old English "feaw" which indicates a countable quantity and simply adds the suffix -er, while "less" is derived from the Old English "læs" which had no need for such a distinction.

The Oxford English Dictionary cites that the usage of "læs" to refer to an uncountable noun has a long history.

Swa mid læs worda swa mid ma, swæðer we hit gereccan magon.
So we may prove it with less words as with more, whichever of the two.

The historical usage of "læs" could also refer to subtraction.

He rixode twa læs .xxx. geara.
He ruled for 30 years less two.

The more strict definition was proposed in 1770 as an aesthetic preference by Robert Baker using the justification that because "fewer" had a stricter definition than "less," it'd be more pleasing to the ears to not use "less" as often. Thus it was proposed for "less" to exclude any usage which could also be expressed with "fewer. The fact of the matter is, this rule has never been used by the majority but has always been a fringe suggestion used to promote one as having elegance over other speakers, giving a certain academic prestige.

6 years ago*
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Hey, that's really interesting!
Thank you for taking the time for such an in-depth post.

6 years ago
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Thanks for the thorough reply, I appreciate (and enjoyed reading) it!

I suppose the prescriptive/descriptive balance is a fine line we tread, really. Language is a constantly evolving thing, and it's obviously misguided to try to nail it down. On the other hand, to abandon definitions as soon as a misconception reaches tipping point seems ludicrous. By that logic, we might as well say, for example, there exists no "correct" choice between effect and affect, uninterested and disinterested, or must have and must of. Whatever people use is correct, because that is what people use, and ergo it is correct. Circular logic seems a poor basis for the foundations of communication. And yes, one might argue that every grammar rule was just an arbitrary decision taken a few hundred years ago - but then, so are words.

In any case, I don't think it does people any harm to discover they aren't using formally correct language, and many people are pleased to have a chance to improve (even if improving often just means adhering more closely to ultimately meaningless standards).

6 years ago
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For me, it all comes down to whether I can still follow the flow of a sentence easily enough; less vs fewer makes no difference, personally. It's such things as your/you're and there/their/they're that really interrupt the flow and make reading more effort than it should be - they're ignorant misspellings that affect your ability to understand in an instant, which just creates frustration.

But I understand where you're coming from, because the misuse of certain words delivers the same frustration - your examples of effect/affect and disinterested/uninterested. I just don't think less vs fewer poses as much of a burden as those other examples, if any. Both words mean the same thing and are easily interchangeable in many (not all) cases.

That and language is always changing, so these purely technical rules may one day just be a relic of old English.

6 years ago
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Since I (as a non-native speaker) play the language by ear, I've surely have made mistakes in the past on the subject of disinterested/uninterested. Can you please quickly elaborate the basic difference between them? Thanks.

6 years ago
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Have you ever heard the term interested party? Well the nuance of that is that they have some stake or investment in the subject - something to gain. Disinterested, on the other hand, means that someone has no investment and is impartial or lacking any bias.

Uninterested just means lacking any interest - you don't care.

Honestly, this one is not too bad because the context helps you define what the writer really meant in terms of this more detailed description. Plus, most of the time someone says either, they really mean uninterested. effect/affect is more jarring to me.

So all it comes down to is what is the most accurate description of what you're trying to convey.

6 years ago
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I love you thoroughly enjoyed reading that :)

6 years ago
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Hmm, I think I barely ever use the word "fewer" and just go with "less" for everything. Probably because t looks so... ugly - it's one "u" away from being a "fever" and nobody likes that (well, maybe kids when they don't have to go to school :D ).

Or maybe I just don't use countable nouns that much?

6 years ago
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less points, fewer giveaways maybe, points is interchangeable as less and fewer both work

6 years ago
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6 years ago
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6 years ago
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Thank you for saving me the time digging this up. ;-)

6 years ago
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Extends to a bunch of qualifiers: few, fewer, less, little, least, much, many, several

Here's a quick reference with examples:

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/countable-nouns

OP: I agree but grind my teeth in silence. ;)

6 years ago
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You still can enter multiple giveaways with less chance of winning, if you really want to. ;-)

6 years ago
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View the countries with the highest number of registered users.
https://www.steamgifts.com/stats/community/users
and you have at least 50% non native users, so give them a break
you cant imagine how internet is breaking their native language

on the other hand i never understood why money is uncountable, the bank keeps track of its count XD

6 years ago
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Jam is uncountable, kilograms of jam are
Same with money and dollars 😀🙃

(also this https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/NbI5zPc )

6 years ago
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As per last time this came up, kilograms of jam and other measure are usually treated as uncountable, unless you are talking about taking the measures as discrete units themselves. For example:

If jam is only sold in 1kg containers, you have to buy no fewer than 2 kilograms ("kilograms" is a stand-in for jars) to get no less than 1.5 kilograms ("kilograms" is a stand-in for the mass of jam) to make a big batch of jammy dodgers, or one enormous cookie. That may sound a bit weird because we're not accustomed to thinking about kilograms of jam, and may make more sense with pints of beer.

A pint of beer is countable when you're talking about buying everyone at the bar "a pint," but as an amount it remains uncountable. Pouring out no fewer than 20 pints requires no less than 8 gallons. A pint of beer can be a thing unto itself or a measure (as I've used gallon), and it can be valid to use one or the other. That doesn't make them interchangeable: your use of less or fewer informs the listener as to whether you are talking about pints as a measure of volume or count of units. Pour out a dozen pints into a dozen glasses and you're talking about a dozen discrete things. Pour our a dozen pints from a skunky keg down a drain and you're talking about an amount. In the former case, you'd use fewer and in the latter case you'd use less whether if you refer to it as "pints" or "pints of beer."

Likewise, if you have $2.50 in the form of a dollar bill and six quarters, you have fewer than two dollars (as a count of dollar bills) but not less than two dollars (in terms of currency). Both fewer and less are valid, but you're speaking of different things because dollars has two meanings; your choice of which you use informs the listener as to which meaning you've chosen.

6 years ago
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Although it could be seen as obsession by some, I like to learn, so I appreciate this.
I learned english by myself, and native english and US people has helped me a lot in the past years, but I still miss many of the basic rules of grammar, so I always find these corrections useful.
I tend to correct people in real life, and guess what, most of them don't like it. But again, guess what? All of these people that don't like it didn't learn anything in their life from their mistakes, so they keep making them.
Ah well, their loss.

6 years ago
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Yeah about that, wth happened to the system, I'm gaining points slower than waiting in line at the DMV (so I hear).

6 years ago
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http://www.dictionary.com/e/fewer-vs-less/

Wow, I learn something new everyday!

6 years ago
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For all intensive purposes, their the same.

6 years ago
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:D

6 years ago
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I get that this is a joke, but do people actually say "intensive" instead of "intents and"?

I have never heard that!

6 years ago
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Yes, I've seen it. Sad.

6 years ago
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Wow. That's a new one for me.

For the record, you could have said "exact same" in your original post, just to make it a little more cringe-worthy! :)

6 years ago
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From my native language Microsoft translator (neural and machine):

  1. Now I have less points, I can enter less dealing.
  2. Now I have less points, I can log in fewer hands.
    PS. I remember that: "For a few dollars more".
6 years ago
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David Mitchell, is that you? :p

6 years ago
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6 years ago
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6 years ago
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You don't have "50 moneys"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIEWgwRrY9s

6 years ago
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Yes, I agree! Less grammatical mistakes for morer culture!

Just joking, please don't hate me.

6 years ago*
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Deleted

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6 years ago
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6 years ago
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