Yes, I completely agree. To care about our elders is to care about our past.
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The caveat there is to care about our youth is to care about our future...but look at how resources and the environment are used. And youth treated for that matter.
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No, it is not. But with the passage of time, what is important to us, today, will be forgotten, tomorrow. Try to imagine what it is like when something that has a lot of meaning to you has little to no meaning to the people in your society. Today's youngsters think that terrorism and bombings are a recent phenomenon, but only because they know nothing about the IRA or any of the groups who proceeded them in history. Politicians who once held office to the detriment of their country are able to return to those same positions of power 40 years later because today's voters are oblivious to the damage those politicians did the first time around. People no longer remember Dresden, or the Paris Massacre, or Tiananmen Square. Even the Berlin Wall is fading into forgotten history.
The only reason our news media is able to convince people that our current situation is "the new normal" is because nobody remembers what "normal" looks like. The "normal" price of petrol is half of what they are currently charging us.
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I don't fully agree with you on this one. It is true that a large chunk of the knowledge and experience is lost along with the generation that experienced it, and that's mostly because is harder to absorb something when you haven't lived through it, but not all is lost to time. A portion of that knowledge remains and sticks around long term, and so society at large inches forward bit by bit, it's a slow climb that will go on forever but things do get better overall.
The thing is that there's always a new problem just ahead, something we were able to ignore before because there were more urgent issues at hand but we have to deal with them eventualy. Of course the young are going to screw up on something you saw coming a mile away, you have the experience they lack and you can't really pass all of it to them, just a portion of it.
I swear I'm not this optimistic all the time, it just happens that as I grew up I started to understand that things are not as hopeless as I thought when I was a tad younger.
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I agree that traces of past experience remain behind, but what is the benefit of books if no one reads them?
The most striking feature of today's teenagers is their appalling ignorance of world events. American college graduates are hard-pressed to name more than 13 of the 50 states in the U.S.A. Fewer still are able to recollect the names of the President, Vice-President, Speaker of the House, and Senate Majority Leader (i.e. the people who run country). When it comes to world geography, most of them are unable to name the seven continents, and a tiny fraction can remember more than two of the Seven Wonders of the World. World history is mostly unknown because it is mostly untaught. Our kids know how to download apps on their iPhone, but not the country in which the phone is made.
I am optimistic by nature, and have faith that humanity will endure. There is always room for hope. On the other hand, it is quite frustrating how we fail to learn from our past. History keeps repeating itself because we keep repeating ourselves.
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what do you think about a President (being yours or mine) that uses Twitter, to let you know "official" news, or something very important. that likes to communicate twitting, liking and using those tools like a teenager? (well, my opinion is clearly inside the question)
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what do you think about a President...?
That would depend.
- I am more concerned with what is said rather than the platform used. If it is worth hearing, then I should listen.
- Actions speak louder than words. If a person's claims are belied by their actions, then their words are meaningless.
- If the mainstream media refuses to do its job in covering the news (as is currently happening in the U.S.), then it is the President's responsibility to get his message out to the people by whatever means available to him, even Twitter.
As you are in Italy, it is unlikely that you are aware of what has been going on for the past two years in America. It is quite similar to the first American Civil War, only there has not been much physical violence, yet. The Political Elite, who have been gathering power, wealth, and prestige for many, many years, are being challenged by the general population over whom they have ruled. In response to the corruption, the American people have elected the current President as he is from among them. They have tasked him with taking back control of their country and undoing the great damage which has been done to it over the past 30 years. The Elite have reacted by trying to stage a coup, but have thus far failed despite controlling the mainstream media, the banks, the major corporations, the education system, most parts of the government, et cetera. The Elite are outraged and are seeking to regain control of things "by any means necessary." They will say or do anything to maintain control of the U.S.A., but the more laws they break, the more people they attack, and the more lies they tell us in the media, the more we, the American people, see them for who they truly are. How this will all end is anyone's guess.
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How this will all end is anyone's guess
was truly hoping for that, while reading.
was also showerthinking: (talked with paul about America) You are the kid, cause you're very young, you have a fraction of our history. so, we're the elders (Europe, Asia,...).
i also think each country, small or big, has its own soul. we're (EU) very young, but as you've said, look at us, Italy, we've already had that. meaning, 30 years? ok, done that!, great damage? taking back control?...done that :D
learnt something, along the way? really don't know. if that's really a cycle, let's only hope to be in a good spot of the curve... ;)
thanks for sharing, Khalaq
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You are quite correct. The U.S. has only been around a couple of hundred years, which is almost nothing in the grand scheme of things. You did give me a laugh, however. I just had this image in my mind of some guy walking through a plaza in Rome. He stops, looks around, and says, ...
"Have we learned anything, yet?"
Good question. )
thanks for sharing, Khalaq
You are quite welcome. To be honest, I was hesitant to make this thread, and I am still of half a mind to close it. Ultimately, it is a caution, and the people who need to be most cautious are those who will probably not even notice this. I'm afraid it has always been that way.
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still of half a mind to close it
i obviously know you're not asking, but still.
please keep it open. tones are nice, here, still talking about politics...
have we learned anything, SG? :P
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Maybe off-topic a bit? If so, I apologize...
I think history will show that Donald Trump's greatest trick was somehow convincing the general population of the US that he was "of the people", even though he is literally the opposite. He is the 1% of the 1%.
His life, quite literally, could not be any more different from the life of a middle-class American... yet he convinced so many middle-class Americans that he was their champion, and one of them.
That he did this at all is puzzling, and distressing.
That he did it by spewing bigotry and hate and derision and rhetoric, rather than harmony and peace and tolerance and substance, is profoundly disappointing, and really does not speak well of us as a nation.
Were we so desperate for a new face that we simply latched on to the first one that popped up and wouldn't go away? As another might say: SAD. Donald Trump is no one's champion. He's not even a patriot. His loyalties and interests are directed inward towards himself, not outward towards the nation.
It's a noble goal to desire to disrupt political elitism, and it's fine to select an individual to lead that effort. But such a leader should be strong, capable, honorable -- worthy of the mantle of leadership.
Bringing this full circle, back on topic -- I sincerely hope that the US will learn from the "Donald Trump era", rather than being condemned to repeat it.
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It's a noble goal to desire to disrupt political elitism, and it's fine to select an individual to lead that effort. But such a leader should be strong, capable, honorable -- worthy of the mantle of leadership.
That would be optimal, yes. However, when a hammer is unavailable, you can sometimes use a rock. It seems people rarely get the leader they desire, but always the one they deserve. Trump is the result of the past 20 years. But enough about politics. I would rather this stay an historical discussion instead of a political one.
Bringing this full circle, back on topic -- I sincerely hope that the US will learn from the "Donald Trump era", rather than being condemned to repeat it.
I sincerely hope so, but it appears that will be difficult. Voting should be done while informed, but we live in a time where the truth is presented as a lie and a lie is presented as the truth. It is up to each one of us question our perception of things and separate fact from fiction as best we can. Unfortunately, most people I encounter are not doing that. P
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Voting should be done while informed
And yet I have heard first-hand accounts from poll workers who have been asked "I have to vote for this person, I was told to by the person. Can you help me through the process?" And it was clear they had zero knowledge of who they are voting for or what they are voting for, just that the person who brought them there told them they had to vote for Candidate XYZ. It is truly sad that people vote without knowing why or the issues at hand.
It is up to each one of us question our perception of things and separate fact from fiction as best we can. Unfortunately, most people I encounter are not doing that. P
Also, people must always be willing to hear (legal) viewpoints that disagree with theirs without resorting to the first impulses of being offended and closing down, because otherwise--while they may not agree with the body of what is said, they may still glean some (useful) knowledge or results of experiences from what is said that they would miss from being closed down, offended, and walking out.
How many people in our day and age refuse to listen to this or that keynote speaker because they know better or were pre-offended by the person (or their past/distant associates/rumor-later-proved-false/etc), and thus they miss the message which might have been a very good message, and maybe very applicable to them.
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I am not sure if this is all too relevant to the entire body of your post, but when you talked about how much of the stuff that actually carved themselves into our memory and helped shape our personalities bear so little significance in the lives of today's youth, I honestly started to panic a little. Just a couple of weeks ago, I decided to start taking more candid and non-posed photographs of my family and the world around me. I don't want my children to have just pictures dressed up in formal wear with semi-artificial smiles on our faces; I want them to have pictures of them interacting with each other and videos of them genuinely having fun. I take photographs of the most mundane things now because it's that stuff that they will mostly forget and maybe long to remember (The Good Old Days). Whenever I'm with my parents or in-laws, I also make sure to ask for stories of their youth, and then make sure to record them; I must admit that this is more for my wife and I than my children because it's one of our biggest fears that we will forget what our parents sounded and acted like. I know that video cannot fully capture their warmth and how full of life they are, but it's the best I can do.
I've also started a diary of sorts, recording the more standout things that happened in the day, as well as how I felt and any thoughts worthy of remembering. Sometimes I also just jot down random things that come to my head, because it's just so easy to have an important thought or idea and then just let it fade away. Nothing I have to say is really profound or even all that important and I'm not even sure my children or grandchildren will ever be interested in reading what I have to say, but I hope to leave at least something for them in case that they do because I wish I had anything to connect me to images and memories I have of my own grandparents.
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I feel you, man. I really miss my grandmother. Her generation lived through the Great Depression and WW2, and she was an amazing lady. Thinking of her, it isn't difficult to see how her generation was able to handle everything life threw at them. I still miss her as someone I could turn to for answers, but mostly I miss her because she was a bright and loving soul.
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Well,it's up to us to make sure those kinds of experiences don't get forgotten.
And since holocaust deniers, anti vaxxers and flat earthers exist, we're not doing a good job.
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stavo per risponderti prima di ricordare che sei italiano, non immagini quanti ce ne siano qui di anti vaccinisti e tutto il resto.. ma può darsi che sia una specificità nostra ahahah
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Believe it or not, there are people who have forgotten the Spanish Influenza of 1918.
Che ci crediate o no, ci sono persone che hanno dimenticato l'influenza spagnola del 1918.
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The 1918 Spanish influenza pandemic? Just try to ask about it to the average Italian - and I'm talking about my countrymen 'cos I don't have enough experience to talk about other European nations' people of course - trust me, 8 over 10 regardless of their age have never even heard about it, or just read about it through high school and little else. Here in Italy no one even reminds anything about the '30s.. when I underwent my 5 university training as a (medievalist) historian I saw and heard things that I couldn't even imagine as a teenager before..
The Spanish flu killed around 600.000 Italians on a population of 35.000.000 and infected around 4.000.000 people, and we had just came out of World War I. Try and ask to native Italians about it and see that no one has even barely heard about it.. can't talk about the other nations but Italy along with Russia has been one of the most affected so it should be something extremely known even nowadays for its importance on our sanity and so on but yeah.. no vax movements and so on everywhere..
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what i find fascinating is the cycle. a 7 years children will grow and grow, until at 70-80 or so, seems to kinda inverse that direction, that process.
digressing, tho.
to be frank, i do not have high hopes, Khalaq.
always followed Sting, here. and from all his words and lyrics there always been this:
stick to my memory since ages, without agreeing what he said.
only now, when i feel kinda in the middle of that process/cycle, seems to me that i'm getting the sense, the meaning.
that said, what you wrote here is the only hope we have, the only chance. the only one. better use it.
<3
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History is merely information. Having it allows the ability to learn from it, but what we learn is up to us. Over the past 30 years, there has been a movement to erase History, rewrite it, and dissuade people from investigating it. When people lack information, or the information they have is unreliable, it makes it difficult for them to make good choices and they are more susceptible to lies and being mislead.
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thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts in this message, I can only completely agree, especially having being trained as a historian in my university years =)
as a northern italian, what you said is extremely true - we had to endure and suffer so many things in the XX century and we must keep everything alive, in any form we can, and this goes also for what happened in the centuries before (which is nowadays completely unknown to our youth generations, unfortunately)
I agree from the first line to the bottom one on what you said, and I really hope your precious suggestion in the last lines will be followed by more and more generations :)
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Recently, the world has been reliving 1177 B.C. There are additional repetitions of American economic and political history currently happening, but that would probably be of little interest to non-Americans. (Historians are usually fascinated by these things, regardless of time or place.)
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This comes off as a bit preachy to me and shows lack of understanding towards our youth. Today's students have been taught that their grades in school is all that matters, so who are you to blame them for not investing their time and energy in the things you personally care about? The things you mention aren't that relevant in their lives yet, anyway. As humans, we have limited time and so all of us are to an extent selective in what we choose to invest time and energy in.
Also, respect is earned, not a given. Higher age doesn't automatically mean more wisdom or intelligence. Some adults are professors and have a great impact on our youth's lives, others spend their time watching cat videos on YouTube. Some adults are violent or tyrannical and don't deserve their kids' respect.
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Well, the last paragraph is definitely "preachy." And while I'm not sure where the "lack of understanding towards our youth" comes in, I do agree with you that we are doing the students of today's America a grave disservice with our public education system. I would know, seeing as how I was a grade-school teacher for some years. As you said, we all have limited time and must therefore be selective about the things in which we choose to invest our time and energy. If today's youth are not taught what will be most important for them to know as adults, it is the adults controlling educational policy who are to blame. And who is to blame if those adults are bungling things because they are clueless? That would be us, their parents.
Also, respect is earned, not a given.
I was speaking generally. There are, of course, exceptions. Even so, I would argue that respect may be shown, whether or not it is deserved. That is simply good manners. There are those who have earned respect, and those who have not, but our behavior toward others is not determined by environmental factors. Every one of us has the freedom to choose how we deal with other people, regardless of circumstance. Circumstances may influence our perception of a situation, but how we choose to respond is always up to us. The benefit of good manners is that they help to smooth over the differences people naturally have with one another while costing us nothing. Good manners have never done anything except beautify that to which they were added.
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"The State Board of Education in Texas has voted to drop several historical figures, including Hillary Clinton, Barry Goldwater and Helen Keller, from the state’s required social studies curriculum to "streamline" the material for millions of public school students.
The decision to remove such figures would not prevent teaching about them, only that it would not be mandatory."
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I expect all of the appalling things Bill did have been swept under the rug, too.
Oh, well, ... We can only do what we can do to make things better.
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It certainly feels to me that important chunks of history are being swept under the rug in the name of politics and agendas and I can only see that as leaving the next generation less prepared for the challenges they might face - but then the cynic in my feels that history has been so cyclical that perhaps this is normal. My main worry is that the world is changing so much that future generations won't have anything in common with me or anything I understand as human. The housing estate that I grew up on shared one public telephone box and me and my friends played in craters left by the Luftwaffe - I love my younger relatives but their social media obsessed world is utterly alien to me.
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I agree wholeheartedly with you about history going "missing." So much of what has happened has been "disappeared" that you would expect people to notice, but those who were around for it keep dying off. I am fairly certain that you are correct in that this has been happening throughout mankind's history. Ancient civilizations were more advanced than us in many ways, and there is still much we have yet to rediscover.
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As a history enthusiast, it’s frustrating how many seemingly obvious lessons are forgotten. People hate history because “it’s boring.” All too often this attitude prevails. If a thing is more than fifty years old, it’s as if it never existed (or is simply treated as fantasy).
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Any class can be boring if not taught properly. Unfortunately, teachers who make their subject interesting and relevant to today are the exception rather than the rule.
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Right, and this is often the most common exposure people have had to the topic: Uncaring teacher + Uninterested kid = "History is boring" attitude for life.
However, the onus shouldn't only be on teachers. Never before has there been a time like now, the wealth of free (or cheap) information at our fingertips is amazing. There are books, audiobooks, classes like Great Courses, podcasts, wikis and websites galore. Especially regarding history, no academic program is required to simply pick up a book. Personally, I often consider pursuing a doctorate in Ancient Mediterranean studies, but why pay for the schooling when I already have access to the same materials? I'll likely go that route later in life if I feel like teaching, but for now I'm content with being an armchair historian with an extensive (and cheap!) library.
Unfortunately, the problem seems to be the modern drive in which we learn about our greater world and history. Too often today, the tendency is to be ever more insular-- settling into comfortable echo chambers, listening to the same music, repetition of the same activities, subscribed news cycles/social media, and overall seeking out new things less and less each day. If we aren't open to learning, to sharpening our own saws, then no amount of stellar teaching will alter that. If people don't want to learn... they won't.
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I'm writing just to recommend you to read about the paradox of tolerance.
You may find your answers before answer someone elses hypothetically future questions.
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I was unfamiliar with the term, but I am aware of the concept. Interestingly enough, it is part of my religion.
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Hmm. But aren't the ones who complain about the system the ones who created the system? Aren't today's 45 year-olds the teachers now? It was important because you witnessed it, so make them re-live it through you?
Schools and hospitals/care facilities should be our main focus, yet they take a back seat to entertainment, greed, and warmongering. The system is slowly destroying itself since ww2, war is big business, big business likes the gullible.
I live in a house with 3 generations, it would be 4 generations if me and my partner hadn't decided not to have kids. We care for each other, we listen to each other. I love the stories about the second world war, how the country's young men and women lined up to go fight or help those injured in those fights. But I love the stories about the before even better, electricity was a novelty, cars a sight to behold.
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Hmm. But aren't the ones who complain about the system the ones who created the system? Aren't today's 45 year-olds the teachers now?
Yes and no.
I don't want to get too side-tracked before I address your point, but I feel some context is needed. In the U.S. there are two main stages of education: K-12, and college/university. While the college scene is mostly taught by those 35 and older (the Millennials), K-12 is mostly taught by those aged 25-35 (the Centennials). Of those two phases, K-12 carries much more weight in shaping people's understanding of the world in which we live. This is especially true nowadays, when American parents are s pending less and less time raising their children.
As for whose fault it is that "the system" is in its current state, that would be my generation, the Baby Boomers. It was our responsibility to raise Generation X (the ones who set the current policies in motion), and we did a piss-poor job of it. The drug culture and "Free Love" movement had a lasting negative impact upon the Gen-X'ers, and we did nothing to address that. We were too busy being angry at our parents to properly care for our children, and the main thing we passed on to our kids was our selfishness. That may sound harsh to some, but the job of a parent is supposed to come before everything else, even yourself.
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I've yet to see history repeat itself. Sure, similar things happen, and would continue to happen, because the underlying nature of people doesn't change much, but we live in a much different world, technologically and socially, than we had in the past. Nothing here is repeating itself as it was. And sure, some lessons are worth learning, but they're typically the lessons that one gets from doing well designed scientific studies, and not the ones learned from anecdotal happenings, which is most of what history is.
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Shame that after THQ bought the Red Faction franchise and the devs didn't want to make any others.
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If there was one thing I could pass on to today's youth, it would be to treasure their elders. Respect them for what they have lived through, treat them with the same kindness they showed to you when you were small, and learn everything you can from them while they are still alive. One day, it will be you who comes from a time forgotten.
So true. I missed out on listening to my grandfather and his stories and lessons because I was too concerned with my toys or reading fiction. "Grown-up-talk" around the table was frankly, boring. I deeply regret it.
Another bit of advice to youths: Don't be afraid to talk to that big, tall, old person just because they are old or tall. Some of them would love to pour time into your life if you and your parents would let them, and you might find yourself greatly benefiting from it and enjoying the chats.
Also, you will end up regretting not spending more time with the old people in your life when you could, while they were alive. Because when you finally have the time, they might have passed on, or their memory might be gone,or they might be physically unable to communicate.
Some of my favorite people in my childhood had lived through what I would shudder at having to endure, and it taught them invaluable life lessons. Hearing and learning from them over the years has been an invaluable benefit to me.
Looking back, some of my best times were spent not playing sports or games, reading books, or watching TV, but spending time with my elders and soaking up what they had to say.
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sorry for the necroing
this thread is also about history, thou... :D
i've just re-read what Khalaq wrote nine months ago, and it still sounds weirdly "fresh". also one of those bits your memory would keep as "SG tagged" even if way far from the simple concept of a giveaway.
plus, noticing only now an American Mod spoked Italian...
foto-ricordo-bump!
https://i.imgur.com/4iGzEo8.png
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There are many benefits to growing older, but there are also drawbacks. One of them hit me just after the 9/11 memorials. So many of the people I knew, so many of those who influenced our American culture and were part of our daily routines throughout the past 45 years, they are gone. Many of the events which rocked us, carved themselves into our memory, and shaped our lives so that we could never forget them, they are not even considered worthy of remembrance by today's youth. All of the trials we suffered, all of the difficulties we overcame, all of the triumphs we achieved, they are not taught to those coming after us, and so they do not learn from our successes and failures.
What a pity.
Life continues to ebb and flow, and the details of our lives are ever-changing, always a discovery. Yet those of us who have lived long understand the underlying truth: while the minute details of human existence change, human being remain human beings. Each generation lives life, and teaches what it has learned to its children. Those children have not lived those experiences, yet they know of them from their parents, and so they pass some of that knowledge on to their own children. The third generation, having only second-hand knowledge of what happened with the first, is able to benefit from that knowledge, but is rarely able to pass it on to their children. The fourth generation then finds itself dealing with those very things the first generation faced, but without the experience that was gained and lost.over time.
It is no wonder, then, that human history is cyclical. We repeat ourselves, over, and over, and over, again. As George Santayana observed, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." That is arguable, perhaps, but human nature does not change. A long history of failure and frustration by those who have attempted to change our nature is sufficient evidence of that. Nonetheless, people are better able to deal with life's choices when they have experience upon which to draw. Even if that experience is not their own. Acquiring that experience from other sources is not always easy, however, as both books and human beings are selective in what they recall.
If there was one thing I could pass on to today's youth, it would be to treasure their elders. Respect them for what they have lived through, treat them with the same kindness they showed to you when you were small, and learn everything you can from them while they are still alive. One day, it will be you who comes from a time forgotten.
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