how do you expect them to get a new key for you when no new keys will exist?
They are saying they'll give you a refund. have it sent to your paypal and buy something else.
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I expect them to have reserved a key for my purchase.
Otherwise they have been selling something they don't have.
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you see, the problem with that is
they DID have a key for you at the time of purchase.
but you didn't use it.
No idea why you wouldn't.
the developer probably voided most, if not all of the unredeemed keys after it was removed from steam.
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Because I didn't want to?
It's irrelevant why I didn't use it. That doesn't give them the 'right' to use or sell it to someone else (in the case they had a key).
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I totally/fully agree with you Midnighter! Unacceptable!
Edit: What was the game?
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Occasionally, they sell what they don't have.
For example, they sold Far Cry 5 keys when they didn't had them (because they didn't bought enough from Ubisoft) - some people had to wait to get their key for few hours. And there was no warningg about lack of keys on Store page, to not scare someone to go buy it somewhere else...
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Are you sure all the keys have been invalidated?
That's not clear at all and you are taking it for granted, maybe it's you the one who is not understanding this.
Because it might well be (and I suspect it is the case) that those who revealed the key but didn't use it, can still activate it.
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How do you know they have been invalidated? Proof, info source... something.
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But the entire batch wasn't invalidated at all? You're literally making shit up as you go along and you seem to have exactly zero understanding of actually happened.
No, there doesn't seem to be any evidence whatsoever that keys for this game were invalidated at any point.
I also guarantee you that no, there isn't anything on the contract that ways they need to invalidate unused keys. For someone who's a supposed "developer" you have a extreme lack of understanding of very basic facts.
In fact, i guarantee you Spiderman unused keys still work just fine.
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You are correct. It is irrelevant why you didn't use it. It is your fault for not redeeming no matter the reason.
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The key is "activated" when you reveal it. ("Registered" is probably a better word.) You never did, so the key was not issued. As the item you purchased is no longer available, they are trying to refund your purchase price. That is how business is usually conducted. Instead of learning from the experience, you seem to be having a fit and making a scene. That is not how adults are expected to behave, but then again, perhaps you are not an adult. The truth is that we actually know very little about you.
The Internet is a fascinating milieu....
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i think the dev probably revoked non-activated keys, and since OP didn't click the show key button on humble bundle, it was revoked
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Why would they do that !
They already got money for that this is legal at best !
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they offered a full refund, even though it's outside their usual window for issuing them. I don't see humble as guilty of any wrongdoing, here.
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Nop they are , I bought a key, yes they should reserve then key not resell it !
And it is ilegal to disable a not used key by HB or the publisher because it is not their already and I was bough legaly !
So not a refund is not enough FFS !
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again, it's possible that humble didn't resell it, and that the publisher disabled it because they removed their game from steam. I'm pretty sure they can do that legally. why is a refund not enough? What else do you want? You aren't going to get anything more than what you paid for the key that was never used or opened. Also, calm down, my dude. i'm just saying that it's possible hanlon's razor applies here.
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you're missing the point. everybody knows we only buy licenses, we don't own the software. but that doesn't matter here. the OP bought a license and did not get that license. that's what he's complaining about. and rightfully so. the promise was a steam key for a license for a game, and he did not get what he paid for.
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Sorry, but you are wrong. You have only to change the details to see how.
Imagine that you buy a bag of compost at the market. You pay and tell the shop owner you will pick it up, later.
Three years pass by....
You return to the shop and demand your compost, but the owner tells you he no longer sells compost and the merchandise is no longer available. He offers to refund your money or give you store credit so you may purchase something else.
That is normal business practice. A purchase becomes yours when you take possession of it. If you never do, it remains a "promise" until such time as you complete the transaction. If it becomes impossible to complete the transaction, it is considered void and any moneys are to be returned or otherwise credited to the initial payer.
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LOL read the thread again little developer.
We already read the TOS.
(i) Delivery of Products. On occasion, technical problems may delay, interrupt or prevent the download or activation of your Product. Your exclusive and sole remedy with respect to any Product that is not downloadable or able to be activated within a reasonable period will be either replacement of such Product, store credit or refund, as determined by Humble Bundle in its sole discretion.
It is funny you need to answer all the comments that I disprove for some reason :D!
This is just a copy of one of my latest comments :D!
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- I'm not a developer. Perhaps you meant to respond to this comment)?
- You basically just repeated what I said by quoting the TOS. If you agree with the TOS, then you are agreeing with me.
- I have no idea what you mean by my having to answer "all the comments that [you] disprove," et cetera. Again, you may have meant to respond to someone else. Regardless, I think I made my point, already, so there's no need for me to repeat it.
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"This is just a copy of one of my latest comments :D!"
This is the last part and the only point that was addressed to you !
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Well, that changes the context dramatically, and now it all makes sense. )
One thing you can do is to start a new line with a ">" followed by any text you wish to quote. That will show it off as being a quotation, ..
like this.
It can be useful when you are trying to separate what has already been said from what you are adding as a response. Other Markdown commands may be found here.
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Let's do the good old analogy to an offline shop, yeah it doesn't always work great, but maybe it can make you think about it differently.
If you buy a game at a shop, but you leave the game there, to come back and pick it up at a later date, how long do you expect that shop to keep that game there for you? Is it reasonable to expect that shop to still have that game there for you months later, while the publisher recalled all remaining copies? Or is it your own fault for not 'picking it up' (in this case, reveiling the key)?
Edit, nevermind, Khalaq worded it better above.
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Well little developer, I did not ask for refund.
Because I do not the care for the money little one.
I am only interested in the copy of the game that I payed.
If you weren't a "dev", your opinion would have some weight but for now + the way you name other people your worth as a individual is NULL at best !
Have a good day and don't respond because I don't care at all !
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Hey foe,
Please keep your comments polite and respectful towards other members. thanks!
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If that's a polite version I wonder how rude the original was. You know the difference between vulgarity and rudeness, right? What I'm hearing from your posts is "I'm a dev, I can revert my sales any time I want and it will always be alright because my abusive TOS say so, screw customers".
Maybe I'm getting it wrong and what you're trying to do here is to denounce these abusive TOS, but if that's the case you're horribly unclear about it
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Just to say this for the little dev ... the TOS means jack shit against laws.
If the TOS has parts that are against the buyers laws then the TOS is null !
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That he has the dev tag/role here, doesn't mean he's an actual dev.
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What does reverting sales (something that doesn't exist) or whatever you're talking about have to do with anything? Where does that come into play because it's not anywhere in this thread
That's actually the topic we're in. As in, it's literally what the OP is telling us about: a purchase he made was reversed (okay I guess the proper word is "reverse" and not "revert") months later.
It's only idiots that assume, making assholes out of themselves
Actually, assuming is one of the things that made us evolve so well. It sure has drawbacks, but being able to move forward without being paralyzed by all the uncertainty of the world beats the occasional SNAFU. So despite the horrible pun, it would rather be the other way around: idiots are less able to assume.
You just have to be aware you're making assumptions. As in "Maybe I'm getting it wrong" (obviously either you missed that part, or you decided to keep being insulting anyway - see I'm making assumptions again, and one of them has to be right, although actually there is a third option but I'll keep it to myself for now)
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The funny thing with Steam is that you don't actually "own" the games, but just "hire" them from Steam, thus they can revoke any key they want to, and sometimes even remove the games from your library retroactively.
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still illegal
sometimes even remove the games from your library retroactively.
Valve tried once and failed hard. Never since then.
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TOS isn't above law. You can write any shit into a TOS, it doesn't make it legal. And taking paid stuff away without compensation simply isn't.
It's sad when people blindly defend billion dollar companies screwing over customers.
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TOS are a load of BS, but the law is incredibly vague and undefined when it comes to consumer rights in these cases (at lreast in the US). The closest legal precedent I can think of is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.
No idea what the law says at all in other countries about this sort of thing.
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contract ...
Shop <-> buyer is different than contract stuff. Consumers have more rights/protection.
agreed/signed a contract requiring you to do [action] by [date]
except no date was communicated
Humble offered him a refund even when they didn't have to.
They had to. Either deliver the product or money back. With the refund the issue is solved.
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Might want to check out contra proferentem, Humble failed to set clear terms and this could be used against them.
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Don't remind the little dev, he doesn't know any thing about data protection laws or custom protection laws in the EU for example :D.
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You have quite the hiliarious lack of understandign of actual law, tbh.
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+1 to all you said, he deleted all his messages for a reason.
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This. Even if you had activated the key on time, you still wouldn't have owned anything.
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Why would they do that !
Because their contract with company that owns right to Spider-man has finished, and in 99.9% of those contracts, they're NOT allowed to keep selling the game after contract runs out, this ALSO includes voiding all remaining possibilities of acquiring the product, so not only physical copies, digital copies, but also unused keys already issued.
It'd be illegal if they didn't do the last paragraph, since they could just generate 100k extra keys "just in case" and keep selling them through third-party markets.
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Sir that is retarded!
I buy someting , it is mine yes !
Then why the fuck I don't have it now ?
This is retarded !
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You are making one large mistake. You are not buying a game in this case. You are buying a license to play the game for as long as the publisher or Valve lets you. We do not own any of our Steam games, we are just leasing them from the publishers for an undisclosed amount of time. So, when OP decided to never activate this license, he simply ran out of time to do so.
Steam keys do not actually last forever. They last as long as the publisher decides to let them be activated. After that, they are gone.
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Then why don't steam gifts expire for Spider man SD for example ?
And why are all our games that are removed from steam are still present in our libraries ?
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Steam gifts belong to Steam, thus the publishers/developers have no power over it. If you buy a gift, you are safe until Steam themselves decide to void that gift. The same with the games in your library. The keys, however, is in total control of the publishers/developers, so they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, with them.
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Interesting I did not know !
Well I still lack a lot of information about steam, even tho I did two paper on it !
Thinking about there was a fiasco with some steam keys that were bough with stolen credit cards and got revoked !
I will keep my "key" maybe they will restock our just for show to remind me of my blunder :)) !
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Steam gifts and keys are fundamentally different, and don't even start on games already in the library.
Steam gifts are inside Valve's system and are basically Valve's - the developer can not do anything with it.
Steam keys are generated by the dev and Valve has no say in it, where and how they sell or withdraw it.
And what you already activated, you're free to use because Valve allows you, and they maintain download options (server, bandwith) for it, even if they have no monetary connection with the developer (even the kicked / removed dev's case, like Digital Homicide)
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They last as long as the publisher decides to let them be activated
which is still illegal, esp. in the EU
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I am not sure. We should be able to sell and inherit the licenses (although the American companies seem to be incredibly lax in terms of what happens to an account upon the registrant's death), but despite their product classification, they are still licenses provided by a service. And the service could stop at any day with any reason.
This is also why I am with Jim Sterling on facepalming when the brain-dead fucknuts defend the EA/Activision/UbiSoft "games as service" business model, because their pea-sized turkey brain cannot comprehend that they are not even getting video games any more, not by the contract they sign with the purchase.
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EA/Activision/UbiSoft "games as service"
what is meant exactly?
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That games are not meant to be one-timer purchases with a clear and defined play time. They are meant to be like mobile games, a core mechanic centered around a gameplay idea and expanded limitlessly with additional and perpetual content, usually in the form of an in-game currency.
This not only ensures that the player stays on the game for a long period of time, but also that they spend continuously on it over a large period. It means much lower development cost and significantly higher profit margins per product.
If it is easier: Destiny 2 and GTA V online, Battlefront 2 (2017), WarFrame, or every pachinko machine made by Konami and Capcom in the past 8 years.
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ah, yeah.
I thought of the $4/month origin game-package first.
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the stipulations can oppose legal regulations
No. No, they cannot. If parts of a contract are going against the law, the entire contract can be voided in court. Has been done many times, will be done many times in the future as well. Look up what "unlawful consideration or object" means. And it is not some European concept, it is valid for most civilised parts of the world, plus the US.
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Sir, I don't know if you're just pretending or really that immature, but:
You bought something and are upset that you didn't receive it, I get that.
But imagine this: You go into the next best grocery-store (=humble), buy a nice EntrecΓ΄te (=your game) and leave it there and just don't care about it... ...then after months (I don't know how long you didn't care but since you were over the 60 days of their regular refund time-frame) you remember "Oh, I bought a steak once and left it in the store" and go out to get it and now you're shocked that the store removed your rotten steak because the health office (=publisher) ordered them to remove it...
Humble even wants to provide a refund outside their general terms out of generosity to compensate for your own <can't/won't write the word i'd want to here> to not lose you as a customer...
TLDR: Humble isn't the retarded party here...
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"Oh, I bought a steak once and left it in the store" and go out to get it and now you're shocked that the store removed your rotten steak because the health office (=publisher) ordered them to remove it...
Sir, I don't know if you're just pretending or really that immature but if you have to make an analogy this flawed just to make your argument sound more reasonable maybe there's not much to your argument at all.
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If I'm not mistaken when you purchase a bundle or something from the Humble store the name and slot are shown and the key isn't delivered to you till you uncover it. When you uncover the key it pulls from a list of keys and then is delivered to you.At the time you purchased the game they had it for you, you just have to uncover the key and you get it.
What you need to understand is this is also not Humble Bundles IP, it's Disney's. If Disney say's to HB that they can no longer sell this game or distribute keys for this game, that's it end of story. It doesn't matter if Humble has 10,000 keys left, HB won't be able to sell the game and if they do they can face legal action.
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Again, the key was sold already. The difference is they are keeping it instead of me. Losing the right to get your key because you didn't hit that "reveal key" button is nonsense!
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The "keys are exhausted" means they don't have anymore keys. Like I mentioned they are on a key list and when someone uncovers the key it's generated and it goes to the person who uncovered it. HB can't get any more keys even if they wanted to give you one because the devs/publisher wouldn't provide them to HB.
Even if HB had a key to give I'm pretty sure they legally couldn't.
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Well fuck it happened with Spider Man shatter Demension FFS!
THis is retarded you buy something they shpould have a unique key for you FFS this is retarded ... how the fuck is this logic at best ?
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Keys are allocated from a pool when you click "Show Key", not when the purchase is made. If you waited to redeem your key until all the keys were gone, and no new keys could be generated, then there's no way for them to get you a key. Thus they offer a refund.
Think of it like you went to the grocery store and bought a watermelon, but the way watermelon are sold is that you buy a ticket at the front that you can redeem for a watermelon at the back. But instead of redeeming your ticket, you held onto it until the watermelon season ended and all the watermelons were sold out. Then you went back to the store, and wanted to redeem your ticket. The store no longer has any watermelon, and they don't have a way to get more, so the best they can do is offer you a refund.
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That's a pretty good metaphor, but...
... I don't buy watermelons so there is no way I can understand ;)
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Well, then we're going to have to have a serious conversation about your shopping habits, and your irrational hatred of watermelons.
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Yeah, but the simple truth here is that you should only sell what you have. It's as simple as that.
They dropped the ball on this one.
The worst part is that this is the most incompetent thing a store could do. Sell shit that they don't have. The balls you need to do something like that are massive.
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hmm, I think what they do is only assign a key the moment you click reveal. If you dind't reveal, you have no key even though you bought the right to a key. This way they can sell unredeemed keys to new customers via the Humble Store, since there are likely people who will never reveal some keys...
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Ilegal then !
So were is this said that they do this !
FFS now I am pissed !
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NOP My master degree in CS.E-Business says I was screwed so for now HB has a big minus !
It never happened with other sites !
So tell me am I wrong in what I said ?
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What are you trying to say? I can't understand what you are trying to say, your english is difficult to understand.
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I have a question now, why do all American say this crap !
Sorry but my English is C1 !
And I reread what I said, nothing is syntactical wrong or grammatically !
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my dude, maybe you should take a break. Get some water, take a walk, idk.
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Why are you even here ?
Are you the public defender of Activision now :)) !
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What? I'm just trying to be more active in the community. Am I not allowed to share my opinion?
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Keep eye contact and slowly back away. DO NOT engage.
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Nop the question is why do you take Activision defense and HB as I said this is illegal in EU and because this was sold for EU citizen it is illegal
By the way I don't give a fuck for the key but for the principle, and I know what I am saying I studied this for my master degree in E-Business :D !
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The TOS are in good stance with a fair contract as defined by EU law. Don't see how this is illegal.
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I saw the part from TOS, yes they had this prepared but it is still ethically wrong because this is not a technical issue but .. !
I take my loss that is all :D !
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Yes, I understand you have a "master degree in E-Business". Humble Bundle sold this person a key, which they most likely had at the time. This person didn't reveal the key. The publisher (which I have zero love for, by the way), Activision, lost the license from Marvel to sell this Spiderman game, so they removed the game from steam, at which point they also most likely revoked all unused keys. Cut to about a year later. This person notices, "lol weres muh gam", and emails humble who replies, "spiderman machine broke but here we'll go against our refund policy you can have your money back", but for some reason the OP says "NoOoOOOOo!!!!!1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1" and makes a discussion here.
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Stop and use logic !
Losing the license means they can not sell games anymore not that the copies sold until then are revoked !
This is what you are saying and it is factualy wrong !
And this is not the case as I said, It says out of stock aka they sold my key to another customer that it is all and it is ileagle and non ethical understand this !
By the way another example a steam gift it is still available even after the game was removed so NOP this is incorrect at best
Also little one want me to bring you a copy of my curricula this is english so you will understand it :D !
Tell do you want a digital copy of my curricula !
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It is irrelevant at best !
Also I only trade with other removed game so not the case :D !
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But, from what i understand of how humble works, they assigned him as having a game key, but not a specific key. iirc they don't assign a specific key until the show key button is pressed. they cannot give a key after the publisher has told them to delete all unrevealed keys from their database.
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https://imgur.com/a/ys972
Read the title of #10 of my "master degree" !
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Calm down. Take a deep breath. I do not care about your supposed degree, anyone can say anything on the internet and I don't know you from Adam. No, out of stock doesn't mean that a key was resold. It means that there is no more product. In this case, it is because the publisher told them to remove all unassigned keys. Keys are only assigned once the show key button is pressed. Seriously, take a break, my dude, you are getting unnecessarily upset.
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NOP if you have read my comment you would see I am not ... !
Also why are you defending again , HB ?
And you say that Activision revoked the keys and as I said it is not the case they don't do that steam gift is a prof for that!
LEL also this is always funny you bring a curricula and he doesn't believe what you want a picture for my webcam and my copy of the curricula with my name and picture LEL ... not today :)) !
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I didn't say that I don't believe you. I said
I
Don't
Care.
You clearly are upset. The first comment you made you said, and I quote, "Well fuck it happened with Spider Man shatter Demension FFS!
THis is retarded you buy something they shpould have a unique key for you FFS this is retarded ... how the fuck is this logic at best ?"
That sounds like anger, my friend.
If the degree is real, congrats on your hard work, but I don't really understand why you have to defend it so hard.
Just calm down. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but people lie about anything and everything on the internet.
Everyone needs to take a break once in a while. Go crack open a cold one, walk your dog. I sometimes get really angry at things and I find it helps to just walk away.
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If you had read all my comment , you would have saw this :
"Tanks for this, ethically this is not a problem they already sold the keys ... I take my loss !
My fault for not being more prepared and lacking information :( !"
I already calmed dawn ... !
But why are we defending them in the first place ?
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Tanks for the advice this was in correlation with my decision to back away from a managerial position because the pay was sub-par at best and that is the so called real reason !
And I just projected my anger on this situation per say !
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I stumbled upon this thread out of curiosity, and felt I should say something here.
- As a non-American who speaks English as his first language, I have to agree that your statements were not easy to understand. There are errors, but that's not the only thing making it difficult. The biggest issue is that you aren't actually making a logical argument, at least not in this thread. It probably makes sense in your head.
- If you have completed grad school, you must have had some experience with composing your thoughts so others would understand you. Saying you have a masters degree doesn't mean you are correct. To top it off, you're saying this is 'illegal' which would be the specialty of a lawyer, not a business major.
- The person you're arguing with is explaining how this could have happened, to the best of their knowledge. Why get angry with them? They never took a side, yet you took it as an attack. If you want everyone to be on your side, stay off the internet.
- As soon as someone showed you the terms of service you changed your argument to say that it was ethically wrong, not illegal. Maybe you should think before you type if you're going to say you have a masters in ANYTHING.
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Ok !
First of all this is not a academical place so if semantically my sentence are off, it is not a real problem !
Also you have the curricula and it says at #10 Legal, Ethical and Social Issue so you have that!
Yes, I changed to not ethical because of the TOS and I already said that ... your point is?
Also read the TOS , it says technical issue can you provide the technical issue for this particular case ?
Next time when you respond try to back what you say first and don't just try to sound some what professional because this is not the place for that !
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"If you have completed grad school, you must have had some experience with composing your thoughts so others would understand you. Saying you have a masters degree doesn't mean you are correct. To top it off, you're saying this is 'illegal' which would be the specialty of a lawyer, not a business major." This isn't saying you don't have a master's degree, it's just saying that that doesn't mean you are automatically right.
I don't think he's trying to be aggressive, he's just trying to help.
Giving people the benefit of the doubt makes life a lot less infuriating.
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I know ... !
As I said it was my bad !
I already calmed , should have redeemed the game , I wanted to trade it for another removed game that was all :D !
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-
First of all this is not a academical place so if semantically my sentence are off, it is not a real problem !
- I thought I was clear that the problem was not how you formed your sentences, rather that you were not forming a coherent argument. It was an emotional rant. Also, if it's not a place for academia, don't bring up your fancy masters degree here.
-
Also you have the curricula and it says at #10 Legal, Ethical and Social Issue so you have that!
- I don't have the curricula, but than you for letting me know that there are at least 10 subjects and one of them refers to legal issues. That still doesn't make you a lawyer, no matter how much your paid for your degree.
-
Yes, I change to not ethical because of the TOS and I already said that ... your point is?
- My point is that you are changing you argument frequently, which means you haven't thought this through or done any research. You're just angry and on the internet. Bringing up your education while acting this way make you look like you're either a) lying about your degree, or b) paid for it and didn't learn a thing.
-
Also read the TOS , it says technical issue can you provide the technical issue for this particular case ?
- I'm sure a good lawyer with knowledge of how Humble's systems work would be able to argue this. My point was not that their TOS cover them in this case, rather that you changed your argument as soon as they were brought up with means you didn't read them before posting here or you did and thought nobody else here would too.
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I never said I was a lawyer only that I studied laws in CS !
Yes it was a "rant" per say!
Also this digital copy of my curricula was put here because of that rant I just used it for a CV and it was at a hands reach, It was peaty of me!
And in our country studding is public , I had taken exams to enter, in reality I got payed per say because I was top of the class :)) !
Again sorry for the rant , have a nice day dear sir :D !
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Pro tip on how to make your comments a 100x times better. Stop putting spaces in front of punctuation. They do NOT go there, only after. Also a period is a valid way to end a sentence, you don't need to use exclamation marks all the time.
Feel free to ignore me but this shit is one of my biggest pet peeves and pisses me of to no end so I can't be quiet about it
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I know that.
I was speed typing .
Stop putting spaces in front of punctuation. What did you mean by this ?
I never said I was a lawyer only that I studied laws in CS !
I never said I was a lawyer only that I studied laws in CS!
You mean this, well this is a habit for programming!
If( a == b ) ... something like this, I only do it with the keyboard :)).
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I don't see how speed typing and exclamation marks are related at all, but ok.
What did you mean by this ?
this ?
There is not space there, it should be:
this?
Same goes for ".", "...", "!", ":",... There are exceptions ofc like brackets, "-" and some other stuff, but most of them don't have a space in front.
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Yep as I said it is a habit from programming.
I can write it like this a==b but I choose a == b or a != b , on paper I don't have this quirk.
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I saw your comment before you edited that in.
You weird person, the only proper way to do it is like this:
if(tab[0]){
if(ye>0){
ye=ye-10;}
}Obviously kidding, I piss off a lot of people with the way my code looks like.
Don't even ask me what the hell is that piece of code supposed to be, I opened some random oldass high school project with an useless name
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It is ok, needs a little more indention.
But you should properly name your variables like thisIsaVariable and not ye :D and tab :P.
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Haha don't worry I give stuff proper names unless it is there just for testing purposes. :D
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I type 85 wpm, still don't have issues putting a ...... at the end of my sentence.. I don't use correct punctuation and spelling all the time but my sentences don't read like they were written by a 7 year old.. I'd hope English was like your 8th language or something..
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Sorry sir but judging by your latest sentence, you should not complain about the skills of other!
You should first read again the sentence that you presented, it is irrelevant that you can "type 85 wpm" when your writing is at this low level :(.
So many syntactical and punctuation errors ... so I would advice you to be less critical to others and more to yourself, this is just an advice.
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the difference between me and you is.. atleast people can understand what i'm trying to say, even if my grammar and spelling aren't top notch, you on the other hand, everything you post is riddled with sentences that make almost no sense.. If grammar and spelling were your issue you would be alright,, but unfortunately it's not..
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Okay little one as you say now bye :6,695 messages in 2 yeas on SG just saying and had no problem but as you say I HAVE A PROBLEM ,what is , no one knows but you :D :P.
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you're problem is you can't even form a complete thought on these boards,.. you posted 6690 times and you joined up 2 years ago.. jeez, I've seen like a hundred of your post already, nothing but drivel contributing nothing to the conversation.. just spamming to see yourself post..
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Hmm interesting how you have so much time to spare that you keep track of hundreds of my posts LEL.
Take your advice and stop spamming posts to me, an advice :D
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And I reread what I said, nothing is syntactical wrong or grammatically !
He said, breaking three rules of grammar and two of syntax....
You probably need a break. Perhaps a calming walk will help?
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I already did this 20h ago ... .
"Tanks Tzaar , that made my day.
I already don't give a fuck about Spider man SD but hey ...
Thanks again ... a like from me :D!"
This was posted by me 21h ago !
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I have not read the entire thread, but it seems you are feeling better, so that is good. )
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Or maybe you should use your time developing some software ...!
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Yes. Because they offered a full refund in lieu of the purchased item. That is a perfectly legal and acceptable remedy.
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The lesson here is to always reveal your keys (or turn them into gift links), even if you think you might not use them for a while.
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NOp gift links does not cut it it is the same as no redeeming it, the only way is to redeem them as i did now but fuck no Spider man SD hmmm !
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That can't be the lesson for us. This should be a lesson for them. They provide a feature to reveal the key and turns out it is used against the users? Nonsense.
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Well, more power to you if you can get them to change their policy.
But until/unless they do, the lesson has to be for us, to change our behavior.
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turn them into gift links), even if you think you might not use them for a while.
not a good idea, people reported gift links to stop working too.
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I agree it sucks but I guess their hands are tied if the dev chose to revoke all keys (possibly this is why they removed the reserved key?)... In which case providing a full refund is the best they can do.
If they really never had a reserved key though, that's pretty naughty from them indeed.
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They should be more verbose in their reply though. They never make it clear if they ever had enough reserved keys in the first place, which is a bit troubling. For instance Indiegala's support will clearly say "The dev revoked all unused keys, (here is what we can do)"
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THey need to answer this crap !
I don't think that the dev deactivated because I know you can buy keys from other sites , and also disabling a key that was bought legally is illegal !
They lost the licence but the copy was made when they had the license so nop it is not the case but HB sold all the stock because money and ... !
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i think those people clicked the redeem key button and are selling the key they got from that not knowing it's already been revoked.
Again, calm down, the entire world isn't trying to screw you out of your money.
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LOL ok and tell me how can a dev deactivate a key that was bought legal and that is not illegal in EU believe it is as I said I have studied this FFS !
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Activision, the publisher, lost their license. it would make sense for them to revoke unused keys.
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Pff dude it is illegal to do this in EU, it is my copy not their ... understand this!
A question, why are you defending this ?
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because I don't think it's any more complicated than a business decision by the publisher, in which case, humble is not at fault.
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Yes it's bullshit but Humble is an American company so EU laws don't apply to it.
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NOP. if it sells gods in Europe it is affected by EU laws !
The refunds from steam was implemented because of EU laws so ... !
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I mean if they tried to get them for it they wouldn't have to do anything since it's an American company.
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They only lost the license to sell it. They key was sold before the license was revoked. What happens with that license after is irrelevant.
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Leson learned today, never trust a site to ensure what you bought it stays with you :( !
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Buhu I am ashamed that I knew the EU data laws now LEL!
SO you buy something and deposit in your account and after it is gone and now it is my fault LEL kids this day !
If I didn't read CS ethics and laws for a semester you would have a point maybe :)) !
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Happened to me aswell some time with some game, keys are simply out of stock in their system. U will get ur key when they resock it. SInce its old make ticket about it u want restock. Done
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There's not much they can do when a developer revokes all unused keys. Had you revealed it, I'm assuming it would be considered "used."
One possible solution would be to reveal your keys at time of purchase and copy them to a text file or spreadsheet.
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Well in plain word ... screwed !
WELL that is life :D !
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If the dev revoked all unused (as in "not activated on Steam") keys, the result would have been the same though (except that getting a refund months after revealing the key might turn out a bit harder π)
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They shouldn't revoke a game you bought legally, they sold you a Steam key, the fact that it doesn't show up until I click a button doesn't change anything. Also what's the reason to revoke??
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They shouldn't revoke a game you bought legally
I'm not disagreeing with you, and I have no idea why they revoked it, but that's on the publisher in this case.
Humble did the best they could, refunding your money.
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No, the best they could have done is to reserve a key for me in their database.
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They can reserve it all they want, but if the publisher revokes the keys you aren't getting a working one either way. I would understand you being mad if HB would refuse to refund you, but since they did offer you that and there is fuck all else they can do I would strongly suggest you to get over it.
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We don't know whether the published revoked the keys. Apparently that's not the case, read the response I got:
"we won't be getting anymore keys unfortunately"
Apparently the problem is that they run out of keys, which would mean they sold more products than they should.
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I went of Tzaar comment about them being revoked, if that is not the case my bad. If they oversold the keys without any of them being revoked this makes it a lot lot worse. But in the end of the day there is still nothing you or they can do (ignoring them changing that practice, but that is still not going to help you this time) :/
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Any possibility you may be reading too much into their response?
we won't be getting anymore keys unfortunately
... is likely because they've all (unused keys) been revoked and can no longer be generated, and doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have one for you in the first place.
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LOL read the thread again little developer.
We already read the TOS.
(i) Delivery of Products. On occasion, technical problems may delay, interrupt or prevent the download or activation of your Product. Your exclusive and sole remedy with respect to any Product that is not downloadable or able to be activated within a reasonable period will be either replacement of such Product, store credit or refund, as determined by Humble Bundle in its sole discretion.
It is funny you need to answer all the comments that I disprove for some reason :D!
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able to be activated within a "reasonable period" will be either "replacement" of such Product, store credit or "refund" lol
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is the amount they're offering to refund you less than what you paid? if so, that seems completely reasonable to me. disappointing for you sure, but a full refund is the next best thing when they can no longer give you what you paid for.
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It was, it's a removed game that know is worth like more than 100 bucks
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so it was for trading?
then there's nothing to complain since HB forbids it. Β―\(γ)\/Β―
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I think it's that the value now is $100.
So, say if they wanted to buy this game again then they would have to pay way more than they did previously. HB's incompetence in this situation resulted in a customer who either won't be able to play the game they bought from them or a customer who will now be scammed because they're desperate enough to buy a key from a scalper.
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I guess you're justifying them selling him a key that doesn't actually exist.
In that case, who cares what they write in the ToS. If I had a service, then typing non-sensical policies in the ToS doesn't make it normal or acceptable. Otherwise I'd have a ToS point where "You might be charged 4 times for a single purchase. If that happens, then by buying the product, you've volunteered to give us that money as a service fee."
What they're doing is stupid and anti-consumer.
Just assign the key to the person like any other legitimate storefront (or even sites like G2A...) and let your customers know if their key is about to expire.
These aren't things that are magically fine if the ToS says that it can happen. This is an issue that can screw people over because of their own incompetence.
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and i guess you're arguing for the sake of doing it. ^^
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Usually I'd say you're right on the money. I tend to be quite argumentative. :D
But in this case I truly do believe that what the company did was unacceptable. I mean, there's worse stuff to do, but in this case the storefront failed to do its main objective, which is to sell things.
And because of this, a customer lost their opportunity to ever play a certain video game. (Unless they break the rules and buy it from a scalper, in which case they'd have to pay around 1000% more for it)
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Same thing happened to me today from a 2 year old bundle, the keys page is also recovering revealed keys. Contacted support whom will probably reissue the invalid keys, Indiagala and Fanatical both have statements concerning this issue if you don't activate immediately then over a prolonged period they may become invalid which you then have to contact support for a reissue so no worries I think.
EDIT I see the OPs issue is slightly different
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This isn't good practice... A purchase should be linked to a key. If the developer/publisher wants to revoke keys/delist the game, let them revoke the unsold keys.
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Simple as that.
A sale is a sale. The publisher and the seller, both are responsible to provide.
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Yeah, what else... Anybody who sells something is responsible to provide. Or would you prefer "obligated". English might not be my native language, but you can find x sentences with that syntax - if it's the choice of wording which you find so funny.
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I'll just refer you to my reply to thegodoftitsandwine below: https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/FRytYVD
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The seller in this case can't provide as the product has been discontinued. The publisher can't provide as they can no longer legally distribute that product. Even if the publisher could provide additional keys OPs "contract" was with Humble so it would be up them to contact the publisher to arrange new keys.
That said OP is well outside of Humble's stated support window so the offered refund is more than reasonable. I'm honestly surprised they aren't limiting the offering to store credit.
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IMO the responsibility for the seller and the publisher includes to make sure that sold keys are usable. It's not rocket science. They could have been put on hold, just as the buyer decided to put the revealment and activation on hold.
But yes, it's good (and again IMO necessary) that they refund. It's no catastrpohe, but as TinTG said, as a whole, not good practice either.
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The time frame is significant here though. The game was delisted over a year ago and people had to have bought it before that. Expecting any result that long after the purchase is ridiculous, especially when they have a stated refund window.
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From Humble's TOS:
(i) Delivery of Products. On occasion, technical problems may delay, interrupt or prevent the download or activation of your Product. Your exclusive and sole remedy with respect to any Product that is not downloadable or able to be activated within a reasonable period will be either replacement of such Product, store credit or refund, as determined by Humble Bundle in its sole discretion.
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Tanks for this, ethically this is not a problem they already sold the keys ... I take my loss !
My fault for not being more prepared and lacking information :( !
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It doesn't apply, this is not a technical problem. This is a management problem.
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It does not apply but they put this under the rug and say it was not their faul :( !
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I'm sure this could be argued either way. Their technical solution may request a new key from the publisher everytime someone chooses to reveal a key. In this case, their technical solution can no longer provide you with a key. Not saying that's how it works, but it wouldn't be hard to fit this issue into their TOS as currently written.
Assuming they cannot provide a key because Humble can no longer purchase a new one for you, what remedy do you propose?
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Assuming that's the case and there is no way to get a key (why not? contact the publisher and ask, it's a fucking digital activation code after all), the remedy could be a refund for me but they should revise their key delivery system as they are relying on the publisher each time a user hits that 'reveal key' button, which is NONSENSE.
If you hit that button before they run out of keys, then fine, but if you don't, you are screwed. That's retarded!
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Agree that it's not a customer-friendly approach to the business. Again, I don't know how their systems work, just that it's entirely feasible that a technical issues caused the problem.
As for why they might build the system this way: since it's a digital good, they don't need to keep it in a warehouse. The only reason to pre-purchase in bulk is to get a big discount. So, unless it's in a bundle or going to sell very quickly, you wouldn't risk your businesses money on buying a lot of keys you won't sell.
It's also possible that it's entirely a legal issue related to the rights to the Spiderman IP. This might be harder to tie down as a technical issue, but unless Humble offers up the reason we'll never know.
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Here's a much more likely scenario. The publishers of the game gave a pool of, say, 10,000 keys to Humble. There was a clause in the contract that in the even that the sale agreement between the two companies was terminated, the publisher would void any unused keys (to prevent Humble from reselling them).
When the game was pulled for licensing issues, the sale agreement for it on Humble was terminated. In accordance with that agreement, and the publisher demanded all the unused keys and revoked them.
Since you had never revealed your key, one had never been assigned to you from the pool. That's a technical limitation on their system - keys are not pre-assigned at the moment purchase, they're assigned at the moment you click the button. It's done that way so that if they temporarily run out of keys for a product (such as HackyZack recently), they can easily add more keys to the pool at a later date without manually assigning new keys to everyone.
Assuming their system works that way, it is absolutely a technical reason why your key cannot be provided. And from what I understand about Humble, that is basically how their site works.
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If that was the case, the agreement is doomed as instead of "the publisher would void any unused keys" it should say " the publisher would void any unsold keys", which would avoid this situation.
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I worded that poorly. The agreement likely did say "unsold" keys.
However, because of the technical limitation that I describe in the third paragraph, they have no way of distinguishing between "unassigned" and "unsold". If the key is still in the pool of unassigned keys, their system does not let them manually assign it to you - you have to take the proactive step of claiming it.
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They know how many games they sold and how many keys are still unassigned, so if the agreement says unsold, then the publisher can't void this many unassigned keys: (sold - assigned)
That gives you the number of unassigned keys they must keep. Simple.
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There's actually a chance that they did keep exactly enough keys. That's all well and good, assuming the keys all work. We'll say they had 100 people like that and kept 100 keys. But say the 47th person complains "Hey, my key didn't work". Now Humble has to make a choice. They can either make person #47 unhappy or give them a replacement key from the unused pool and leave person #100 without a key. Either way, because they only kept exactly enough keys, one person isn't getting the game.
At that point, the logical decision is to handle the customer who's currently angry, and hope one of the other 53 outstanding buyers never tries to claim a key. And for all you know, since you waited so long, you could potentially be the 100th person out there with an unredeemed copy.
You could say "well, they should keep some spares too then", but their agreement almost certainly specifies "all unsold keys" and doesn't allow them to keep spares. I wouldn't just let another company have a bunch of free copies of my game just because there might be complaints from former customers at some point in the future - I'd want to get paid for every copy they kept.
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Well, that's pure speculation and even if that was the case, they shouldn't provide extra keys to anyone for a product that will have no more available keys and the available ones are for purchases that have been made. It's common sense.
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Really? For all they know, Person #100 may have lost their password, forgotten about the purchase, died, or any number of other things. Person #100 is a hypothetical future. Person #47 is here right now and actively asking for a problem to be resolved. It doesn't make sense to leave a product in the back room for a potentially infinite amount of time when there's a paying customer here today who wants it.
And even in the worst case where person #100 does show up, it's the same outcome from their perspective - one person doesn't get the game and raises a fuss about it. So is it really common sense to cause a definite problem now instead of putting that same problem off to the future? I'd say a 100% chance of an angry customer right now is worse than a potentially angry customer in the future.
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The first sentence doesn't matter from a legal perspective. You have a product that can't be activated, and the terms provide a solution for that situation.
Your product is not "able to be activated within a reasonable period". Therefore, "your exclusive and sole remedy", in according to Humble Bundle's discretion, is a choice between store credit or refund. If you don't like their terms, don't buy from their store again. But the terms are legally very clear here.
You may want them to also provide replacement as an option, but they make it explicitly, 100% clear that they may choose any of the three options, and you don't get a say in the matter. They were even kind enough to give you a choice between two of the three options, even though they don't have to.
You can talk to a lawyer if you like, but a good one will tell you to shut up and take your refund, because the terms of purchase are clear to everyone except you.
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"You have a product that can't be activated" --> believe me, there are ways to provide me a key that can be activated, the publisher can provide it and they should as the product was sold to me in a store authorized to do it.
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No, the publisher cannot legally provide it, since the game is no longer available for sale due to an expired license. They legally cannot provide copies of the game any longer, because they no longer have the rights to the characters in the game.
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Doesn't matter - they no longer have a key for you (for reasons posted in another message) and they can't get a new one from the publisher.
Additionally, because your key was returned as unassigned, the publisher was never paid for it. Humble still has your money.
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As I explain in another message, they should have kept a number of unassigned keys for the people who bought it. Technically it's very simple.
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It is legally not feasible. Once the publishing rights ran out of the game, the publisher was legally bound to remove it from all purchasing venues. This means also recalling all unsold Steam keys (heck, they could have revoked all unactivated ones too). Since you never started the key reveal process on Humble, all the keys they had left had to be removed. They could not "keep" them, it was against contract.
Same is with IndieGala or Fanatical, by the way, and all stores that do not immediately assign you a key upon purchase. This system is there to make life a lot easier for them upon a refund request, since revoking keys means the store would have to go through the publisher and they would have to do it. The only easy thing the store can do for the customer is that the key revokal usually activates 60 days after the game was removed from store, so people have ample time to get their stuff before this generous deadline ends.
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So if a user clicks the 'reveal key' button, then he keeps the game, otherwise he risks losing it after a certain time. This is nonsense.
There was a time when that 'reveal key' button didn't even exist. We must conclude it's a detrimental feature for the user.
I don't know 'legally' what is feasible exactly and what is not, I know what makes sense and what doesn't. This doesn't.
There are steam gifts that can be sent and activated despite its publishing rights ran out.
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Steam gifts are pre-activated games that are not bound to an account. Despite the long list of issues with Steam, Valve very obviously designed the entire client and system around one core principle: that the average user is dumber than a sack of bricks. (They are wrong, of course. The bricks are significantly more intelligent.)
So, Steam gifts were like as if you revealed the key already. (Well, not really, but in your case, this is the closest analogue I can describe to you. Steam's internal system is a bit more complex than that.)
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I think this refers to giving them an opportunity to provide a key vs giving a refund, rather than how long you have to activate a key.
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"Reasonable period" here refers to the time it would take them to provide a key. The game is no longer sold, so they are unable to provide a working key within a reasonable period.
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All this shows me is that Humble is just straight-forward about their incompetence. Better than nothing, I guess.
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humblebundle i think will go to 'scam sites'.
2 days ago locked my account for nothing... Legally i paid for all and result account lock...
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Do I LEL!
sarcasm now with plain text, damn you must be a wizard because the message is only 5% of the process of communication and with that you already detected sarcasm ... hmmm teach me senpai :P.
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I wouldn't have given you the $17 refund, so kudos to humble for doing that.
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:)) LOL nop wanted to trade for another removed game ... my loss damn :(.
Should have redeemed it!
I don't want a refund by the way even the text that I own it in HB is enough ... I will pirate it ... incoming but you are stealing comments... :)).
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You don't own it, you purchased a license to play it. Though technically since it was never activated you don't even have that license.
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The need to spam this comment tells something about you :D.
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from your post, you'd likely pirate the game anyway.. also how do you start responding like you're the original poster when the OP is Midnighter.. umm.. someone using multiple accounts and forgetting which one they logged into?
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You got me there little lamb, I have 10k acounts on Steam and I am called the accounts master LOL ... how old are you and I mean mental age ?
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I like this thread too. You highlighted a very important point. Many have pointed out that you do not own the game, you have a license to use the game. Putting all of this aside, too many people are trying to use logic to explain why things are the way they are.
The OP main issue is that this is unethical/illegal. This is not a logic puzzle to explain why it is the way it is. Can we dig out some Terms of Service that gives them some latitude to weasel out of delivering what they said they would deliver? Sure. They hide many things in there.
Back to the original question: Was this action unethical? YES. Is it possible for them to set aside a number of Keys for already-sold, but unrevealed clients? I say YES. Was this straight illegal? I am not a lawyer; I do not need to be. In the US, you can sue over anything, and you have a reasonable case here. It does not matter what the Terms of Service say if you can reasonably show that they double-crossed you--they did not deliver what a reasonable person would expect to receive (the license and ability to play the game).
This is not a new problem. Airlines oversold the number of seats on an airplane, knowing that a certain number would cancel or not-show to maximize their revenue (and allow them to offer you a lower price.) Ultimately, it is more efficient for them to compensate bumped-flyers when this system goes wrong. They can only hope that not every flyer on the plane to scheduled to perform life-saving surgery at their destination and a refund + extra compensation is not acceptable.
However, do you want to go down that road of suing them? This is the terrible crime of realistic justice systems, it costs more to obtain justice than the damages. But, ultimately, you would have to show damages. If the defendant admits: "Yes. We did wrong here and would like to pay compensation. We offered the person a full refund. What more can we do?" Perhaps a double refund would satisfy you as a small compensation.
You say: "I do not want a refund. I want the game!" Fair enough. The defendant may also show that despite their shortsighted actions that led to this problem, they are no longer capable of delivering the game no matter what. In this case, you would have to show how much mental anguish you are going through by being denied the purchased game that you so hoped to play one day. Even the courts cannot undo certain irreversible damages. Instead, how can we punish the defendant enough so that it will ensure that this will never happen again. "Ok. $400 of damages for mental-anguish." It is a real possibility, but good luck with this angle.
I think what you really wanted to hear from everyone was: "Yes, this is an unethical practice." There are many on this site that are not great at putting their foot down and passing judgment. Reason is dominate. If this is the way it is, let us find a reasonable way to explain why it is this way to justify the status quo. Could it be different? Sure. Was it unethical for them to say, "Too bad. So sorry that you do not have access to your purchased game now. This is our policy." YES.
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You highlighted a very important point. Many have pointed out that you do not own the game, you have a license to use the game.
Technically they don't even have the license to play it as said license is granted to an account upon activation.
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I am sorry to hear that. I totally agree with you that when you buy a steam key you should get a key. It shouldn't matter if you clicked the "reveal" button or not.
I don't know if this is humblebundles or the publishers fault though. I saw that spider-man games weren't on steam anymore so I bought a key for "The amazing spider-man" about 2 weeks ago on kinguin. The key worked fine. So I don't think the publisher revoked sold unused keys.
Either way, humblebundle can't possibly get a new key for you as they aren't sold anymore. They apologized and offered you a refund, and I guess that's the best they can do even though it sucks...
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Probably Humble's fault. They don't assign you a key until you click on the reveal key button. If they wanted to, they could simply make it so that keys are assigned to your account regardless if the button is clicked or not.
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It's unfortunate, and this confusion and frustration is due to the way keys are generated and allocated.
Keys are allocated from a pool when you click "Show Key", not when the purchase is made. If you waited to redeem your key until all the keys were gone, and no new keys could be generated, then there's no way for them to get you a key. Thus they offer a refund. It's the best they can do at this point.
Think of it like you went to the grocery store and bought a watermelon, but the way watermelon are sold is that you buy a ticket at the front that you can redeem for a watermelon at the back. But instead of redeeming your ticket, you held onto it until the watermelon season ended and all the watermelons were sold out. Then you went back to the store, and wanted to redeem your ticket. The store no longer has any watermelon, and they don't have a way to get more, so the best they can do is offer you a refund.
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If that's the case, they shouldn't sell more games than keys are available.
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At the time they sold the game, there was an infinite amount of keys available. News keys could be generated and sent over.
Then, the game was removed from Steam, and no more new keys could be generated. Humble didn't remove the game from Steam. Humble stopped selling the game at the time it was removed from Steam. But when it was removed from Steam, all un-activated keys were recalled, and so Humble was left with no keys and no way to request new keys. Thus, the best they could do is offer a refund, which they did.
You assume that Humble is able to hold on to a key for you indefinitely, when their contract with Steam is such that they have to return any un-activated keys if requested. It is understandably frustrating and confusing, but given that Humble is at the mercy of Steam, they did the best they could to resolve the situation by offering a full refund months after the purchase.
The lesson to be learned here is... buy DRM-Free from GOG. ;)
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Well I just got issued a new key from humble support for the 2 year old key that was invalid.
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I don't know how common this is but it really bugs me.
I've just found I can't get the Steam key for a game I purchased months ago.
I understand that game is not available any more, but HOW COME they didn't reserve a key for my purchase???
I contacted support and this is the response I get:
"Hi there,
I'm sorry for the trouble! This item was taken off the Store and we won't be getting anymore keys unfortunately. Since this is outside of the 60 days refund window. Would you like the $17.80 returned to your Humble Wallet or send manually to your Paypal account? Please provide your Paypal email address if you want the manual refund.
I'm so sorry about the inconvenience,
-XXXXX
Humble Bundle"
So beware because if you didn't unveil the Steam key you may find that they won't provide it in the future, which I find UNACCEPTABLE.
MY REPLY TO HUMBLE BUNDLE:
Hi,
I'm really disappointed about this issue. One expects all the keys to be available after hitting that 'reveal key' button, but it turns out that now there is no guarantee that there will be a key. I used to take for granted that all the hidden keys were there waiting for them to get unveiled. I was wrong. It was a convenient mechanism to make sure those keys hadn't been used, so that I could gift or use them safely. Not any more. What seemed to be a great feature turned out to be a trap.
Imagine how insecure I feel now about all the other purchases where the key hasn't been revealed yet. Will there be a key available after I hit that 'reveal key' button? Who knows!
I think there is something fundamentally wrong in your approach to the keys management if a key can suddenly stop being available, with no previous warning for the user. The key was bought when there were keys available and it should always be available, it can't depend on when I hit that 'reveal key' button, it makes no sense from the user's perspective (and I know there are probably technical or licensing reasons behind but this behaviour is unacceptable from the user's point of view). If a key risks becoming unavailable, then it's always better to show it up immediately. What's the point of having a 'reveal key' button if it is putting in risk the availability of the key?
If there is no way for you to get valid keys for my purchases, I accept the refund you offer (to the Humble Bundle wallet is fine) but it makes me reconsider my purchases on your store as the precedent this introduces questions the validity of the purchases I am making.
Thanks for your reply to my support ticket and the refund offer.
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