ok i know there might be some more answers but i think these will be the most popular, thats why i added them and i could not think of more but please feel free to add input.
I picked the third choice. Even with all these videos there is a lot that do not even show real game play on steam/store pages which is not useful for me. I watch the videos i read a description and i play the game after 2-5 hours i find, i really dont like it even if it did look good. The 2 hour limit for steam i think is to small. I am a slow player. Thats why i picked 3 i have done this and have no shame in admitting i download some games illegal play them i really like them then delete them before finishing and purchase the game they deserve the money i am just tired of getting games that are not interesting to me at all.
I mean if i am still buying the game in the end they get the same thing right? And i get to know i actually like the game.

It will not let me add choices to poll. But Downloading for the sake of getting it to work if you already own it.
Also downloading it for fan translation if it was never released in your country seem to be popular.
You can add those in comments if they are your choices.

1 week ago*

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is there some wiggle room?

View Results
yes
no
yes but only if you play the game just enough to know whether or not you like it then buy it if you do
yes but only if you bought another game from the company that was broke or awful and feel this is you getting what you did not get from the first purchase
no downloading for any reason is wrong and hurts the community/ industry

they shouldn't cost money to start with i think, especially for the numerical versions. buying a game is basically always giving money (expected valuable with known value) for an experience (unexpected valuable with unknown value and unknown quality) that can be copy/pasted in -relatively speaking- unlimited amounts. and with the nature of marketing, doing everything to get in your way to catch your attention and tease you, only showing you the best stuff and hiding all the cons as much as possible and/or flipping the table and turning your game into an incomplete and frustrating experience after you've spent the money... that leads to where we are now

6 days ago
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Where do they get the money to make these games if you want it for free?

6 days ago
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I'm guessing a magic fund that pays for all the my little pony media he likes to consume for free...

6 days ago
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roflolololo

5 days ago
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not for free, but they shouldn't cost money upfront, in the beggining

5 days ago
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Your hard work shouldn't cost any money either. You can work for free. ^^

6 days ago
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you don't get it

5 days ago
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Right... lol

5 days ago
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they shouldn't cost money to start with i think

I tried squeezing potatoes, 3 chickens, and a goat through the internet to barter, but my ISP kept getting angry at me.
Something about modem cost, blah, blah, blah.

They said I should try sending money instead.
Something about exchanging it for goods and services, blah, blah, blah.

6 days ago
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roflolololo

5 days ago
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I see it as imagine you were the dev and you put all that hard work and effort into something you prize you'd hate it if someone stole your hard work. On the other hand. However, emulation to a certain extent I don't mind downloading. And sometimes downloading a game to test it out isn't really bad if you're going to test it out like a demo. On PC I don't see why you would need to download so much illegal games because they're so cheap. If you can afford internet and a gaming PC you should be able to afford the games you want to play.

6 days ago
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Exactly, people can afford a pc, internet and electricity but... a $60 game... oh god the horror...

6 days ago
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As if we would pirate only one game...

6 days ago
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Now you are being greedy...

6 days ago
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Call it what you like. If that's greedy for you, you should see my music library with more than 300 artists, from which I have supported only 5 officially (disregarding Spotify, which is almost like not supporting because of how little they pay). I do wish one day I get rich enough that I can afford to buy all the games, music and TV shows/movies I consume for free digitally, but I don't think that's ever going to happen in my lifetime. Streaming services have made me pirate a lot less though, that's for sure, but still, none of them offer everything.

6 days ago
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You are only justifying what you do by saying you lack money. I see this as one of the greatest flaws is society these days. People don't take responsibility for their actions. They just make excuses to validate what they did.
I'm not here to fight with you. I was joking to begin with. But I'll never agree with you on this. If you can't afford a game/music/movie, just play/listen/watch whatever it is that you CAN afford.

6 days ago*
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My actions are harmless. How about you do what you want and I do what I want without us telling each other what to do? I know people who hold themselves to a high moral like you will never agree on this and I know it must be easy for you guys to do so, but for someone who loves art as much as I do, I just can't not appreciate it because I can't afford it.

6 days ago
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your way of thinking isn't the greatest. I agree no one can tell you what to do. But remember everyone needs to eat. So if everyone thought like you we wouldn't have anyone to make new games for us to play or in your case illegally download. If they're too expensive then wait for a sale or maybe get a better job? Just saying... you're in Brazil, I'm sure the scales of economy isn't so bad with currency conversion. If I'm not mistaken it's priced cheaper for your country.

6 days ago
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No one "needs" to eat. There isn't anything that forces you to keep living. I don't understand that correlation at all. But anyway, there's no point to this conversation, you're not gonna change my view, I'm not gonna change yours, there's no point dragging it on.

6 days ago
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LoL, you're one funny dude.. everyone needs to eat and if nothing forces anyone to live why even be born? But you are entitled to your own opinion so I won't knock you for that. I hope u continue to infect your PC with all those viruses from pirated games :P

6 days ago
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I'll repeat:

No one "needs" to eat. There isn't anything that forces you to keep living.

Don't worry, I don't have any pirated games on my PC, but thanks for the maturity of wishing good things for others! Really shows how you're a much better person than I am, I would never wish viruses on someone. ;)

6 days ago
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"HEY GUYS NO ONE 'NEEDS' ANYTHING AT ALL! HAHA DO YOU GET IT, YOU CAN JUST DIE. LOOOLLOLOOL"

Surely you can recognize this line of thinking as incredulous.

6 days ago
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Well, it's true, if you guys are going to pull that card, no one needs anything. If you're talking about things one would need to survive though, that's an entirely different discussion. But then the even more deep question would arise: why does one need to survive?

6 days ago
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I think you missed my point. I meant it as everyone needs to eat as everyone needs to earn income. I'm sure you understood that and are being satirical because you just sound like a child saying that nothing forces anyone to live...

6 days ago
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And pirating because you can't afford something won't affect someone's income at all.

6 days ago
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if studio closes down because game doesn't sell well how is it not going to effect someone's income? I don't think you actually think when you answer sometimes. But again you are entitled to your own opinion. I'm just trying to show you there are always consequences to every action.

5 days ago
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If I didn't pirate the studio would close down anyway, because I still wouldn't buy it since I couldn't afford it. That's my point. I'm not saying there are no consequences to every action, but the act of pirating when you can't afford something is harmless and has no outcome effect whatsoever. I'm not saying it's right, or a good thing, but it's harmless.

5 days ago
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You pulled that card, and by that same token you don't "need" any of the media you pirate.

6 days ago
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Exactly, that's my point.

6 days ago
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Oh, I see-- it's entirely up to your discretion. Requirements for survival notwithstanding.

This is, of course, moronic logic.

But hey, you're clearly just looking to rustle feathers. Whatever, man.

View attached image.
6 days ago
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I don't even understand why you keep replying to me, trying to appear like the superior person who has the morals by calling my arguments dumb and moronic without providing any real arguments? You're not even debating anything, so I really don't get it. What do you want?

6 days ago
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but for someone who loves art as much as I do, I just can't not appreciate it because I can't afford it.

View attached image.
6 days ago
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Harmless? Right..
If you loved art so much you would never say that what you is harmless. It just sounds like a different type of justification. I would respect you more if you had said that even though you do it, you know it's moraly wrong, against the law and that you feel ashamed by it. But you don't feel bad at all, you just try to make excuses for others.
It's not like you don't have choices. You can play a game you have paid for or choose a different hobby to pass time. You certainly don't work for free. Why should others have their hard work stolen? You are basically saying that if you can't afford the entrance to a museum, it's okey to invade it because you appreciate art so very much.

6 days ago*
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Yep, it's harmless, I'll be glad to hear how it's not. You know, I would really like to understand how it's so easy for you people to put words in my mouth. Let's break it down, shall we?

you know it's moraly wrong

Might be, but it doesn't change anything. Please quote me saying otherwise.

angainst the law

That's a fact. Please quote me saying otherwise.

that you feel ashamed by it

Where do I say I don't again? Please quote me.

But you don't feel bad at all

Where do I say that again? Please quote me.

It's not like you don't have choices

Pirating is a choice.

You can play a game you have paid for or choose a different hobby to pass time

Or pirate. Look, a choice!

You certainly don't work for free

I don't work at all.

Why should others have their hard work stolen?

"Stealing" is a hard concept to grasp when talking about something digital for me.

You are basically saying that if you can't afford the entrance to a museum, it's okey to invade it because you appreciate art so very much

That's the physical world, it's different.

6 days ago
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That's you just making another excuse. You want me to quote you but you never say anything one way or the other. You just try to justify what you do. If it's something you choose to do then clearly you don't feel bad about it. That's the only thing any of us can infer based on your own words.
And you might wanna start looking for a job. That way you will be able to afford the things you want. Someone said you are brazillian. So am I. And one of the problems in brazillian society is that most of us is lazy and want everything for free without any effort. Sometimes I feel ashamed of my country and my people.
And stealing isn't hard to grasp at all. It's wrong, period. Just like murder or rape. Imagine you spent countless hours creating something just to have others do with it as they see fit. Copy and sell or distribute. How is that not stealing someone's work? Digital good is a good just like any physical one.

6 days ago*
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If it's something you choose to do then clearly you don't feel bad about it.

What a great logic.

You might wanna mind your own business. I don't have to explain anything to anyone, but I'm on university, so I can't focus on a job at the moment. It's not about being lazy.

I said stealing is a hard concept to grasp in the digital world, learn how to read. In the physical world when you still something the other person loses it. On the digital world you just make a copy. And for the millionth time, I never said it's right or wrong, but it's completely justifiable. I'd like to believe downloading something illegally is a bit better than murdering or raping someone, which is harmful to the other person, but who knows, maybe I'm wrong about that too! xD

Now you're really going off. Copying and selling something or distributing it is completely wrong, because you're making money off of someone else's work, but copying for your own use is not the same thing. The person isn't losing any money when you do that.

And you still haven't provided any reason why it's a harmful action, I'm waiting...

6 days ago
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You know that if you download a pirate game someone had to copy and distribute that, right?
They don't appear out of thin air.
I already explained the concept of stealing so how is that harmless? Who gave you the right to misuse an intellectual property?
And since you are in the University, you should be more mature. What if someone stole and presented the term paper you wrote for graduation? You would be pissed, wouldn't you?That paper is intellectual property just like any digital game or code.
Stealing is stealing whether in the digital world or the physical world. Just because you don't see who is being hurt (not in the physical way - but financially or intellectually), it doesn't mean nobody is being hurt. See, not hard to grasp at all.

5 days ago
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Yep, and I'm not the one who distributed it, so my actions are harmless. I'm very well familiar with the concept of stealing, no need to "explain" it to me, but pirating is a harmless action. I don't have any rights, but it's still a harmless action. Again, downloading something illegally is not the same as downloading it and distributing it, so your paper example makes -100 sense.

5 days ago
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I can't decide if you actually don't get it, if you think you are entitled or if you just like to play dumb... I'm leaning towards the latter. ^^
You are just another person that believes you can do whatever you want whenever you want with no respect for others or anything. Another ugly flaw in brazillian population these days. And I bet piracy is not the only way you break the law in you daily life. Way to go... a 'great' member of our already lost society.

5 days ago*
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Nope, I don't believe that. You're the type of person who will judge others without even knowing them, put words in their mouth and insinuate the worst out of people to make you feel like you're superior, the most ugly flaw in all population. You guys act like piracy is an extremely horrible crime, when it's completely harmless. There are people being murdered and raped every day, why don't you focus on those crimes that hurt people? But like I said, you're too stupid to get it, so no point dragging this on. Have a good day.

5 days ago*
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Hope you grow up and becone a better person. I can only hope your mother didn't raise this way. Because if you feel the need to attack and be offensive than that means I was right and hit a nerve.

5 days ago
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I hope the same for you. Lol and now bringing my mother into this... My parents and my entire family and everyone I know personally pirate just as much. I'm attacking you now? Poor baby. You're the one who insinuated that:

You are just another person that believes you can do whatever you want whenever you want with no respect for others or anything.

And that:

And I bet piracy is not the only way you break the law in you daily life.

It means nothing, but keep telling yourself that. Whatever helps you sleep at night, baby.

5 days ago
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I can see now you will never become a better human being if that's the example you have at home. I pity you for that. Hate and bad behaviour are almost always thought.

5 days ago
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Wow, you're such a perfect example of a human being, I feel even unworthy to be in your presence. Thanks for the vote of confidence, I really appreciate it. Now I know I'll never become as good a human being as you are. Wow. Just wow. W-o-w. Can you stop replying to me please, so I don't have to read your retarded comments?

5 days ago
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Well, you do behave like a little child and I doubt you will ever grow up with that mentality of yours. And if you are complaining about my comments it's because you surely didn't read yours... lol
I do have better things to do with my time. You certainly do not deserve all the attention you crave.
That being said, I bid adieu.

5 days ago
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Yet you're still giving me the attention.

5 days ago
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5 days ago
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thats how i look at it if i made a product and they are satisfied i should get paid. If they are not satisfied with the product after testing it NO i should not get paid they should get there money back.
If you go to a store or restaurant and buy something and it sucks do you still pay? Usually you get your money back. my only complaint with the refund system is 2 hours is not enough i think it should be 4.

6 days ago
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You get a refund on goods if they are broken or not working properly. Not because you didn't like it. That's your problem. I agree there's room for some leniency, like having 2 hours to play a game or 7 days to return a product bought on an online store. And sure some people still won't be satisfied. But if you start giving people more and more they will start taking advantage and abusing it because they will never feel like it's enough.

6 days ago
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Again, the level of entitlement is staggering.

6 days ago
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6 days ago
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Rachelsfg,

I was agreeing with you. I was referring to bigal80ak's entitlement.

6 days ago
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I am sorry. My bad. I misunderstood. Bury the hatchet?

6 days ago
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I thought he was the one replying to me. Didn't pay enough attention.

6 days ago
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Again, so very sorry. I hate to be unfair.

6 days ago
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No worries, I never assumed you were intentionally attacking me.

6 days ago
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you dont think you are entitled to get your moneys worth? This might be an environment, social factor. Where i am from all the time if you buy something from someone and they beleive you are not happy with it they try and make it right by a refund or a discount on another product or something like that.

Even me when i sell things for my family which i do often. If they are not 100% satisfied i refund they are entitled to be happy with there purchase. But i cannot say how it is in different areas. dont mean to be offensive.

6 days ago
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no i can return a game to gamestop if i dont like it and used to be able to at EB we dont have EB any more. But i can still return things to walmart, target if i dont like it. Other then obvious things(TP, once use items) I can even return shoes.

I agree we do need a line that was kind of the point of my topic what is that line? Because we can clearly abuse it.

6 days ago
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i rarely do it, the only game i think i will be most probably pirating now is shadow of war, i really want to play the game and now i will enjoy it, but i REFUSE to pay for a microtransaction filled game with such garbage publisher, money is the only way a publisher will undertand the message, and i am tired of this practices, so fuck wb

6 days ago
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Well, I think you question is more aimed towards newer games. I think piracy is almost completely justified with games that cannot be obtained otherwise, mostly older games that are not available digitally. If it's not on Steam, or GOG, or available from the publisher/dev, or NEW at an official retailer, i feel no remorse for downloading a game. I see no logic in the belief that you should buy a retro game if you're gonna download it. The publishers and dev see none of that money, and it helps keep those games alive. As far as newer games go, I don't think it's ok for a number of reasons. The excuse for a demo it's sort of bullshit in the era of YouTube, where you can watch fullplaythroughs. You also have websites like CanYouRunIt to know if your PC can handle it. If you plan on buying the game anyways, or if you already bought it but want a "DRM FREE" version, i guess there's not REAL harm. Again, I don't believe that pirating is "stealing", you're not taking anything away from anyone. People who pirate RARELY were gonna buy the game anyways. If anything, amplify the good or bad hype for a game. BUT if you're the type of person that asks him/herself if it's ok, you probably can afford not to pirate a game, and just buy it. If that¡s the case, buy it. Whenever possible, support devs and publishers. If you don't like the game, that's on you for not making an informed purchase, and you can request a refund on most platforms anyways, especially Steam.

6 days ago
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when you go to buy a car do you just watch a youtube video? No you have to test it to know if you like it. I checked out of my 23 steam games on wishlist i think 2 or 3 i think it was 3 had demos the rest none. Honestly if they all had demos i never would. The refund system is not great 2 hours is really not much time some games have long intros.

6 days ago
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Why are you scrambling so hard, here? Do whatever you want to do, but do not expect to receive universal acceptance of it.

The refund system is not great 2 hours is really not much time some games have long intros.

We can play your same comparison game here. Do you get a two hour demo for a movie in the theatre? Or, anything beyond a few teasers/trailers? This two hour window is a luxury that never existed before in regard to PC games, and simply doesn't exist in many other industries. So seriously, check your privilege here. You claim a lot of entitlement where is does not exist.

6 days ago
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sure but its different from an actual demo, it requires you a purchase, and even if the process for refunding is easy that isnt a justification for no demos, i dont think we should compare different medias, a trailer is fine for movies as they are usually shorter, still they dont serve the same prupose as demos, trailers are supposed to sell, demos are supposed to solidify that choice

6 days ago
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have in mind i am not touching the piracy subject here, only arguing about demos,

6 days ago
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sure but its different from an actual demo, it requires you a purchase, and even if the process for refunding is easy that isnt a justification for no demos

I don't see how is this different than purchasing a product online. At what point do you draw the line? How much of a product are you reasonably allowed to enjoy before paying for it?

6 days ago
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well tbh i dont really think demos should be a part of the actual game, most like a half an hour playable demostration of the gameplay experience, i cant remember any examples right now but they have been several who have done it

6 days ago
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I understand what you're saying. Back in the day, Dark Messiah of Might & Magic had an excellent standalone demo. It certainly led to my purchasing of the game. Although, I think they inexplicably removed the demo once the game actually released.

6 days ago
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not scrambling i am just responding to the topics and waiting for response. I AM NOT LOOKING FOR JUSTIFICATION OR TO CHANGE MY POINT OF VIEW. This is about discussion and hearing what others say.
I think that window did it was called demo's i used to get demo discs in the mail with several demos on it to try new games. Companys would put demos of another game on a video game you bought. Like i said in previous post i used to be able to return pc games when they were sold in stores. They are not really sold in stores here any more.

Maybe it doesn't exist but should it? Are you not entitled to knowing what you are buying?
I was just saying i would need more then 2 hours. There has been talks of releasing movie footage so you can get a glimpse before you buy or go to theaters. This has actually been done with tv shows for quite a while.

6 days ago
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If you want a car, you should watch a youtube video, read articles, reviews, customer experiences. Be as informed as you can be during any and all purchases in your life. Please don't rely on who's selling it to you. With videogames, it's the same, you have trailers, playthoughs, reviews, forum threads. I'm not saying they will portray an exact picture of the game but they should always be enough for you to know whether you'll enjoy the game. If you use pirated games as demos, i'm not going to judge, it just sounds not very time efficient to me downloading a full game, playing it, then buying it and downloading it again and playing that part again. My advice is find a reviewer/s who has the same taste as you and stick to that.

5 days ago
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People who pirate RARELY buy the games because in the end people like you justify their actions and say it's okey. If you believe that it's not stealing and say they are not doing anything wrong, why would they change their mentality? You just validate their actions and and make them feel like changing is not necessary.

6 days ago
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i think its the ones who download and never pay that change there mentality. They later on buy.
For instance i did that before but after playing and enjoying a game i thought i need to buy it so they make another unfortunately they did and number 2 not as good. But still worth it.

6 days ago
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I don't think that's true at all. I pirated when I was younger, I knew it was wrong, only the industry was very diffferent back then. In my country it's always been very hard to find physical copies of games due to imports and Steam didn't exist or wasn't what it is today. But as soon as I got a job and had money of my own, I was thilled to have legit games. Some people just don't have access to a credit card either, especially younger people, at least back in my day. Let's be clear, i'm not encouraging pirating of newer games, I'm saying I don't honestly believe MOST people who pirate would actually buy the game anyways, maybe because they don't have money or they're just assholes. If you can afford a game and pirate it anyways, that sucks, don't do that. But there's people who won't play a game unless it costs them nothing. Those people exist. I don't think they're that way because society justifies it. They're just lazy assholes. On the other hand, if you HONESTLY can't afford it, I don't see what difference it makes, you're not taking away someone else's sale, you're not stealing a physical copy from a store, you're not prevening other people from playing it, so i don't believe it's stealing, but i still don't think it's right. Again, i'm not saying it's right or encouraging it. If you ask me, the perfect solution for piracy would be actual videogame libraries. We have book libraries. Many libraries nowadays also have movies and series. If we had a videogame equivalent, there'd be way less piracy. It all revolves around accessibility. So, keeping it short: If you have the means and want to help the devs/publisher, buy the game. If you don't have the means, try not to pirate.

5 days ago
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Imagine this...

You know your house key? I'm going to take a copy of it to keep for now. I'm going to unlock your door. You know that tv you spent money on? Going to catch up on my shows. That PC full of pirated games? Playing on it. That toilet you have? Shit in it and rolled around in your bed.

I decided after 40 hours of this... I didn't enjoy your house. I didn't steal any thing... wait what that's trespassing? Well piracy is taking intellectual property. Swap the tv with a graphics designer making those guns you like, the body's you jizz over...Swap the pc with coding making all those gameplay mechanics you like such as creating rats to eat enemies while you watch... That shit in the toilet? That's what you gave to developers instead of your money in your tight fisted hand... That messy bed? That's the mess you've created for the gaming community and the jobs you have cut cause they can afford a full team to make the game...

But I didn't want to pay money for it... cause I just got a copy for free to enjoy while your house has been paid for so whatever

6 days ago
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lol yup name checks out.. pretty sadistic way of thinking XD

6 days ago
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The jokes on you, ghosts are doing this to us all already.
Spooooky~

6 days ago
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LOL at the mental gymnastics in this thread

6 days ago
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6 days ago
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I can't deal with it. Most of it is it's not going to effect the devs.

Best one is I have no income or little income... Either get a job or do something free for a hobby... I never had a computer until 4 year ago and went to the library to read or go on the computers there. I worked 16 hours at college and saved to buy my first and only PC... I've got about 400-500 games I've paid for off my checkout job... minimum wage. Except from PS4 games and A HANDFUL of games like Overwatch... that's all I own and need.

Or another great one is in not stealing that cheap disk and plastic physically so it's fine. Like physical disks are magic and that's there the money is made. Like if people stole the physical copies then the business selling it would lose the most product. Like look at the store selling Civ 6... the devs were fine but the business wasn't. They shut down. That was a limited amount of copies so imagine devs with literally unlimited copies to take... A lot of people not paying means a lot of potential profits gone...

"What if I don't like it?" Imagine someone hired them... they didn't do their job well and the employer said "I didn't think you did a good job so I'm not paying for you but thanks for coming" like it doesn't effect them cause they didn't lose anything. But they aren't getting wages. Oh well maybe they should do better next time.

If I like something I will pay for it. If I don't like it I will pay and think "what a waste of money" but that's what money is there for.... spending.

I just hope these guys appreciate the multimillion games they have. Games that take months if not years to make. I think people just think RPG makers is how games are made. It's not that easy folks. People work hard for their money and some people decide whether they should buy it after playing 30 plus hours of it. What I'll do is I'll take a bite out of a chocolate bar on a shop and if I don't like it I will spit it out and nothing will be lost and I tried it.

I'm done. The digital world means crime is okay. Like looking at child porn or beheadings etx doesn't mean you physically did it. But it's wrong and illegal... extreme or not. Crime is crime but digital crime is fine.

6 days ago
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It is frustrating, but I do applaud your effort in trying. People will scream endless excuses to justify their own selfishness.

6 days ago
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Let me tell you a true story.

I was a scientist for 12 years before deciding to take a break from work, to take care of my baby girl during her early childhood.

I designed projects, applied for funding (even for my wages), bought the necessary materials, worked long hours, performed the relevant experiments, analized the results, wrote papers, and published the results to advance my career.

For the publishing process you send your paper to a scientific journal, they review it (well other scientists like me do it, pro bono) and, after being accepted, you must pay the publishing fee and sign what is a kind of a waiver of your rights over the work. Since I don't have a personal subscription to the publishers (and am not affiliated, at the moment, with a lab that does) I must pay to access my work. Ridiculous, right?

There are plenty of other instances where this happens and where devs, artists and creators only get wages for the duration of development and do not get money from sales. I dare say this is the norm.

There are also fairly ridiculous affairs happening:

  • John Fogerty, lead man of Credence Clearwater Revival had to pay his former publisher royalty rights for playing songs he created. He was even taken to court for plagiarism because he sounded a lot like himself!!!
  • Prince changed his name because he and his work were owned by Warner Brothers and he wanted out. For him, record contracts are slavery.
  • The gaming industry is infamous for having what is called layoff cycles. You hire people for a project, you finish the game and you fire them to further your profit margins!

I'm not saying piracy is OK or the solution to anything but there are plenty of issues wrong with the entertainment industry and seeing things in black and white will not solve anything. Copyright laws are draconian and often harm developers more than help them. That's why so many people are starting to be self published, one of the great blessings of our internet age, in my opinion.

6 days ago*
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Sometimes I feel sad when I can't whitelist someone because that someone is already in :(

5 days ago
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you made me feel sad so I whitelisted you back ;)

5 days ago
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As an aside, I do think publishers on Steam should be asked how long they consider is a "valid" tryout period for their games. Two hours is obviously way too long for many games, but for some others you do need a somewhat longer window to truly get a grip of it.

6 days ago
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That could be very useful.

6 days ago
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I also agree with this but I think it isn't too viable because of the ridiculous amount of games there are on steam and we all know publishers don't give a shit about us but our money.. Dev's I could see doing this but then it will come down to time calculation and how would u base it. For us as consumers it would be very easy, "more time please". For Dev's it would be hard to justify what would be enough say you let them play long enough to feel the game out and then no one would want to keep it seeing as they've "Saw all that the game has to offer", and then there are other shady reasons like if they deliberately know their game is crap but with the time limit they would hide the good parts for the later to end levels. Maybe give 2 sets of time for refund periods depending on the size of the game.. I do agree some games 2 hrs is too short maybe for higher sized games increase it to 3 or maybe incremental values asociated with megabytes? I don't know but its a good discussion.

6 days ago
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I never pirated a single game. I don't agree with it so I just don't do it. Besides, if for any reason I can't get a legal copy of a game, there are plenty of others to play. I just choose another one I already own or can buy.

6 days ago
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I chose pirate a game to see if you enjoy the game or not when there is no available demo.

I am not sure what the refund programs are for other video game marketplaces, so I will compare with Steam only. Steam's 2 hour part for its refund system is too few hours to experience any decent amount of gameplay. Then say if the refund request passed for the game you did not like, you have to wait 7 days for the money to return to you in the form of Steam wallet or wait more than 7 days for the money to return to your bank account. Also, the refund is recorded on your Steam profile in case you might abuse the refund system, so you cannot even test multiple games in a short amount of time without risking losing your refund privilege. If the developers will not provide an official demo, you have to find one yourself through the Pirate Bay.

6 days ago
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Because the refund system is more about making sure your system can handle the game appropriately. As far as judging content, there are not many instances in media where you are allowed the opportunity to completely "like" something before actually purchasing (i.e. movie tickets). It's a tough call with art, because you consume it differently than buying a physical product (which can often be refunded within weeks).

6 days ago
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Haven't needed piracy since my crippling income situation cleared up, those beautiful steam sales became a thing, and various sites started offering DRM-free versions (and steam letting you create backups). Tempted to demo games I'm uncertain of a few times but ultimately haven't. That's the beauty of the steam backlog really, no need to burn extra bandwidth on illegal torrents when you could just break down the looming purchases from years gone by. :P

Piracy doesn't necessarily harm developers on the smaller scale and can actually be beneficial, but collectively it tends to have a negative impact. Big companies with their well-oiled milking machines and programmer-abusing payment schemes don't typically have to worry about that loss given it is small enough to be just something of an environmental hazard of the industry, but indie developers suffer piracy waaaay more, and that is where my big concern is. Support the stuff you enjoy, yo.

6 days ago
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Support the stuff you enjoy, yo.

Exactly. It's not a difficult concept.

6 days ago
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Eehh... I would be a hypocrite if I didn't point out I still have a big backlog of pirated music that I'm still gradually purchasing my way back down through :P

Piracy is a weird thing really. Way back when, I only bought FEAR and Dead Space due to having pirated them and realised I enjoyed them (whereas I had no interest in them previously, and was fishing for time killers). Plus having gotten burned badly by purchasing games that I had let myself be misled by (The Movies), or had bizarre tech issues based on individual chipsets (Prototype), it used to be easy to form a bad habit out of what starts as good intentions.

However, Steam and Humble have ended up being great steps in combating piracy without being obnoxiously intrusive and restrictive. Humble pretty much singlehandedly gave rise to 'bundle culture' and Steam popularised the steep sales prices we have in the digital gaming marketplaces now, which seems to have massively curbed people's urge to pirate when they can usually satisfy curiosity with a little patience, and the risks of uncertain titles are way less painful when you snag something on the cheap. The huge unified platform of Steam naturally upped the ante for punishment in general too as it threatened your collective account without necessarily threatening you with total account closure. Between Steam and Humble, the mentality switched from the innocent 'sampling' that often slipped into outright piracy through laziness and instead became "I'll wait for a sale / see what's in the next bundle". GoG then stepped in offering a great alternative for those with harder stances on DRM, also giving an alternative platform for new developers who don't want to be sucked into Valve's dominant business machine. Now that Steam stepped up with a refund policy in recent times, laziness and uncertainty is less of an excuse. Plus all the review and Lets Play style content we have on video and stream index sites lets us get a pretty good handle on things ahead of time (though is still a risky issue with story-centric games). With services like Spotify you can scout for new music without having to swipe it as the default first step, and places like Bandcamp help on the indie front. I'd like to think piracy poses an insignificant threat compared to what it used to when it comes to full blown commercial content, but that only seems to create more pressure on the upstarts to integrate with the big bodies for various measures of stability and protection, which can mean a critical loss of creativity and freedom.

When I see relatively newish indie games going into a bundle at a lower tier, I cringe a little inside. Downloading the installers from GoG, I also worried about how abusable that would be in a piracy sense, giving a direct line to totally unprotected copies from smaller (or totally upstart) studios and developers. It's far from a perfect climate, but things seem to be going well enough? I don't feel that all piracy is necessarily harmful, and that we can in fact make that distinction in discussion. While there is a percentage of us are able to keep a sense of responsibility or restraint about it, it's definitely not a subject to be glorified, but I guess I don't think it deserves instant vilification either.

Take my thoughts with a pinch of salt I guess, given I'm a reformed seadog and not exactly up to date on these matters? Figured I should babble a little on the subject because I didn't want to look innocent when I'm not, and you appear to have quite a hard stance on the subject. ;P

I'm just hoping someone comes up with a good alternate to the streaming video services will happen eventually, because my shitty connection can't handle anything but a gradual overnight download and it's always painful to have your current episode constantly buffer right as stuff gets good (20 minute episodes taking 35 minutes to watch, and not being able to pre-buffer the entire thing or forced rebuffering if you click a timeline at all, hnnng). Indie stuff needs that strong support though. Extend that to stuff like audiobooks, comics, written works, etc.

6 days ago*
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Hey, I think we've all done it. Yes, I think a lot of it naturally occurs when we are younger. As you allude to, once you can understand the concept of creative property, and the fact that you yourself may want to be a career creator, there can no longer be any illusion.

Those that choose to continue the process simply shouldn't craft some elaborate justification for it. Most want to experience something they don't need, and they don't want to pay for it. It's that simple.

6 days ago
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(and steam letting you create backups)

Can you elaborate this if you have time? Or can you send me a link I can read in detail?

5 days ago
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Oh crap, sorry I didn't see this. I think your comment got buried in with some others when I marked them all as read, hnnng. :/

There is an option to create compressed archives of your installed games in the steam menu ("Backup and Restore Games"), that you can then restore later on. Compressed backups take up a little less space, and they are generated in their own folders that you can safely move around to other HDDs or portable media for storage, and then use them to install the game again at a later time. This actually lets you create backups of games that friends can use, but only if they own the license to the game on their account (as the backup serves as a kind of portable installer that gives you a clean but patched current version). If the account doesn't own the game, they won't be able to run it.

It's handy for people like me with unreliable / slow internet, but with storage space to spare. I can backup large games when I don't plan to play them in the near future. I imagine most people use the option to break the backup directory down into DVD-sized chunks so they can create hard copies of things they own. It's good for the games with 10gb+ installs, but gets a bit trickier if the game has a lot of mods or the save files don't sync with the cloud, given they get left on your computer. The backup feature is pretty handy for me because I any downloading I do between midnight and 8am doesn't count against my broadband data allowance, so I can grab my games during my downtime.

All in all it reduces the stress associated with wobbly connections, and allows a legitimate method of creating backups without having to resort to piracy.
Hope that helps a little!

1 day ago
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Thanks for detailed explanation! I didn't know Steam had such feature.
Btw that "between midnigt and 8am free download" sounded like we are from same country but checked your profile only to see you are from UK. I didn't know Queen made such restrictions :P

1 day ago
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I mean, Wolfenstein ROW not availble for activation in Germany --> Downloading "illegally".
Same for some Dead Rising, Max Payne, Red Faction, Saints Row, Sniper Nazi Elite ... don't be shy ... just download from a shady site.
Don't want censored games with green blood? Go and get a ROW version if available beside offical Steam store OR ... just download from a shady site.

It's as simple. Games are not a necessity. But activation locks or even run locks (!) also are not a necessity

6 days ago
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Usually I download AAA shooters, but all RPGs and just good games I buy, because I play only single player and shooters cost tons of money and single is too short. Something like Bioshock I buy, but Call of Duty I'll always just download, beat in 10 hours and forget about it forever =) Also if the game is outstanding and I'll definitely play it again - I'll buy it. And I'll definitely buy Doom on a summer sale =)

6 days ago*
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What about the games people only buy because they downloaded and tested first? I think there are quite a few people that only bought a game because they downloaded it, tried it and really enjoyed it. I think it is something that can sometimes help sales. There was a publisher this year that released one of their games for this reason. You could get it for free and one of the people that helped make it said its good it gets the game in peoples hands and if they really like it there will be quite a few that purchase. There will also be ones that will not purchase the game either way even if they like it.

once again not justifying just curious what people may think of that.

6 days ago
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Not to support piracy but i REALLY miss the time when we had more demos for games.
And i don't understand why so few games offer to try a demo now !

And steam support say refund system doesn't exist to try games, so the argument "you can already refund under 2h and it's the same than a demo" is wrong.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/63mtc6/refunds_are_not_a_method_for_trying_out_games/

I don't and won't pirate to try games BUT for sure i'm much more reluctant to buy games that don't offer a demo.
And no, youtube videos are not the same, some games are fun to play and boring to watch, some fun to watch and boring to play. And it's just not the same feeling and understanding watching someone else play, otherwise why play ? Why not just watch others play in youtube videos ?

SO just to say, i feel the industry doesn't make effort to offer us demos. Because they want we blindly buy their games on the hype without knowing exactly what it is. If there was a demo of No Man's Sky, so many people would have bought it ? i don't think !!! If there were demos of new AAA, so many people would preco or buy at release ? Certainly not ! And i'm sure they calculated and think the same.

SO there are no demos because they don't want to give us demos. So it's not normal to pirate but it's absolutely normal to be reluctant to buy their games. i don't think we would spend more or less total money if there were demos but we would probably spend the money differently and more intelligently, not in the same games.

6 days ago*
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yeah i miss more demos i actually refused to buy a couple because no demo's as i just couldnt tell. I find it especially hard with JRPG as so many look alike buy play, characters can be very different. Plus the over release of very low quality jrps that are custom made and almost exactly alike.

NIce article. Also very glad this discussion is doing so well. Not many people bad mouthing one another and just being close minded although some. GREAT JOB EVERYONE THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT. not yelling just wanted that to be more noticeable.

6 days ago
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i can understand totally that it can be hard to discern between 2D RPG

As a personal recent example, i would like to compare Banished http://store.steampowered.com/app/242920/Banished/ and Forest Village http://store.steampowered.com/app/496460/Life_is_Feudal_Forest_Village/

i watched a let's play of Forest Village and i still don't understand what is the difference with Banished.
And there is no demo. So i won't pirate the game to try it. But i won't buy it either.
Because i don't understand the difference between these 2 games, sorry.

And no, i'm not ready to buy it to try and refund with steam system. Steam said the 2h refund doesn't exist to try games. So i won't spend a chance of refund just to try a game. So it's just a missed sale (it's not the dev's fault that i'm too stupid to understand the difference between these 2 games.... But he still won't get my money.)

The same for example between Stranded deep and Bermuda.

6 days ago*
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Pirating being stealing - I dont think there is wiggle room.
I however do agree that devs should make demos or somekind of free weekends more.. So people can try the game out. Everyone bashes Origin. But cmon - They have some 10 hours of trial for some big titles. There are games you can finish in such a time.

In my country pirating is popular. We have no control over it. We have huge sites that have virus free games/movies/songs/applications,,, You can get anything and usually hours after release if protection isnt that good for the game..You dont even need VPN here.

And even with that, havent downloaded anything for some 2 or 3 years.. Around the time I started bulding my steam library..
When I was younger I did download a lot of stuff. I simply didnt have the understanding of what it really is and how is it bad. I understood its not really correct, but being a teenager, paying 10 euros for a game is too much. Not talking about 50... (note - minimal salary here is something over 300eur and most of it goes to bills and wierd taxes) And wage gap is horrible. Its either thousands for politicans and businessman or something around the minimal wage for everyone else.

Went a bit offtopic.. but well :D Just making a point that ven when it seems that there are valid reasons for pirating, Its still stealing.And even with situation I had growing up, I still dont think its anything good.

6 days ago
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Already commented on a different thread but I'll say it here too. It's not stealing. It's copyright infringement.

6 days ago
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A few reasons

  • The game is unique to a console/no longer sold
  • A game that doesn't have an official translation in my language and/or can't be bought where I am (most notably Japanese games). But has a fan translation and download available online
    (There is also the mix of the two above, most notably on psp games, which don't have english translation as well as being difficult to get on the device)
  • It's a company I don't want to support. However in this case I tend not to play the game at all cause it affects my overall enjoyment of it
  • Extremely polarised reviews which stick me in a limbo of buy or dont buy
  • It's a genre I haven't played before, or don't play much of, thus I'm tentative to buy cause I dont know if ill get my money from it, example horror survival. I play them, but rarely, as many of these types of games just irritate me
6 days ago
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I've pirate in the past as a result of being broke, and I've also pirate in order to demo games or test performance. Honestly don't care what peoples opinions on me doing so are. In the end, I've ended up paying for every game I pirate (sometimes multiple copies), unless it was complete ****. Developers, and some people may act like pirating is this horrible act killing the industry, but... There are tons of people like me, who's money these developers would have never gotten if I was not able to test the game first. If they want to reduce pirating, add good demo's for people to play. The argument that the refund system can be used as a demo isn't relevant in a lot of cases, as long games vary widely in experience throughout the game, and the first 2 hours is often the worst indication of what it'll be like. Plus, having to pay and go through a refund process to demo is an annoyance.

That's just my opinion though. Understandably, their are circumstances where pirating is bad, but that's not always the case.

6 days ago*
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I did pirate the English versions of my boxed games if they didn't include English along with the mangled sub-par monstrosities they call translations. Sadly, unlike movies, they don't list languages on the box so you never know if the "czech version!" is in addition, or replacing the English version.

6 days ago
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IMO if game is not sold anywhere oficially it's fair game (no point in paying "collectors" some silly amount of money for used copy that original dev will see no money out of)

6 days ago
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I'll download the game when several games that i wanted to buy already removed or there are store that provide the game but with the higher price tag that they put on which is why i can't afford to buy at the moment. For example, some sports game (NBA 2K or Football Manager old version)

6 days ago
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When my steam acc was young and my backlog close to nonexistent i considered piracy a substitute for "try before you buy" and painfully inconvenient at that.

Nowadays i see no point in pirating. Maybe i became too hype-resistant but i can wait as long as needed to get a 50-75% discount.

5 days ago
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Depend if you have income and how far you are willing to pay your "debt" after in my opinion.
When I was a child/teen, my parents wouldn't buy me any video games, so I used to harr harr everything.
Now I'm a young adult, in college, so i'm still eating pasta, but I got paid with small jobs during summer and I can afford to have a true Steam library. I haven't pirated anythings in 2 years now.
For me it's ok like that, because if I couldn't game back then, I would have find another hobby and never bring the cash I'm bringing today. But you have to stop to pirate as long as you have income. Even for trying : you don't leave in the middle of a movie at the theater to ask to be refunded. You don't ask to be refunded at the half of the book. You don't ask to be refunded half of the museum. It's the same here.

5 days ago
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actually a lot of people leave half way through movies and ask for refunds there are theaters with that policy if you only stay for part of it and leave because you dislike quite a few will refund.
With books now days a lot of them have downloads you can try for free i think the last couple i got from amazon did. You can even download demos of audio books.

5 days ago
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I never saw that happen, and I know that in my country it's not possible.

About books and audio books, you said it -> demo. That's a total different things, demo are just a part of the thing, and also free in the first place.

5 days ago
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your question is ambiguous. do you mean legal wiggle room or moral wiggle room?

5 days ago
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I was missing this too, they are two significantly different views. He probably means moral, but it will scramble answers for some people.

20 hours ago
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Well, sometimes I downloaded the pirated version for the feel of the gameplay, if I like it I will buy the game for the multiplayer purpose usually...

5 days ago
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5 days ago
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