“I think it’s incumbent on any site owner or community manager to look hard at what they’re expecting volunteer moderators to do, and find ways to either shift their budget to make paid moderation possible or change what they’re doing to reduce the need for unpaid or underpaid moderation labor. It’s important to not exploit the goodwill of your community members by asking them to do unreasonable amounts of uncompensated labor. And it’s important on the flip side to recognize that if you can’t, in an ethically sound manner, provide sufficient moderation for a discussion space to keep it thoughtful and non-toxic, running a discussion space may simply be a bad decision.”

Source: https://kotaku.com/should-forum-moderators-be-paid-some-dont-even-want-to-1820047518

6 years ago

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Should forum mods be paid?

View Results
Yes, in cash (either a set amount or a share of revenue)
Yes, in privileges (or other benefits like points or cosmetic enhancements)
Sure, but only out of donations from users
No, it would be damaging
Potato

Depends on the size of the site, but yeah, they should get paid a lot of cash.

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In an ideal world, money wouldn’t matter.

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In an ideal world moderation by a 3rd party would not be required.

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In an ideal world people would not be tempted by the prospect of potential rewards and seek those positions for and in the expectation of rewards.

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in an ideal world there wouldn't be any people

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Oh, go live in the mountains! You are apparently in less than ideal conditions in this discussion.

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You'd still have forums where people communicate. Maybe "Steamtalks"?

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To shift this argument - if there were paid mods they would be able to focus their time onto moderating the website instead of focusing 90% of their energy on real life to pay for their bills and only being able to donate a little of their spare time to do the moderation work.

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If cg would pay two-three mods to do job full-time (preferably in 3 different timezones to cover all userbase timezones) it would be much more effective than having even 20+ mods doing stuff in their spare time. One person fully dedicating their time to something is worth more than 10 people dedicating a little bit if they have time, feel like it and have nothing better to do at the moment.

I am not saying anything bad about our current mods, mega props to them for dedicating their free time for free, but fact is that jump-in-and-out voulountary work will never meet the quality of full-paid-full-responsibility work.

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but why do you think cg would be looking for mod in UK (ir any of the most expensive countries for that matter, in similar fashion one could debuynk argument saying well hiring a Swiss mod would be hella expensive, cause wages in Switzerland are crazy high)? It's not like there are no countries with much lower wages than UK in similar timezone (Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Balkans), and since mod is actually working online good thing about it is that you can hire people from other countries and it will not make much difference.

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An example of a (tiny) job that would serve the community and also reliably contribute directly to users engagement with the site would be posting bundle info--after all, without bundles, SG as we know it is dead. Of course, the community currently provides this service, but it's usually the same few people posting the charts, and it can get patchy when those people go dark (as has occasionally happened in the past). That's not exactly mod work, though, and as you note the expansion of paid duties can lead to abuse or corruption.

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Not really a valid argument, you just have to hire right people, and if they do not act well just fire them. I have been once beaten by a bodyguard at concert for crowd-surfing, paid bodyguard from professional company. After the accident he got fired and I got some money not to go to court, but it's not the matter here - the matter is I got beaten by professional bodyguard, something he had no right to do. Still it's not an argument that rock concerts/festivals should not hire professional bodyguards and just rely on free volounteers who will agree to act as "bodyguarda" for tickets to said concert and will do their work in their spare time while there's no band they are intrested in playing. Same here - only proof it makes is that the admin hired a wrong guy, not that hiring someone to manage your website/community and to pay them to do so full time is a bad thing.

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You just haven't been to the right concert.

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taylor swift? amy macdonald? then yeah, definetelly not right concerts ;p

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One that exists in the 80s?

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Well that was interesting. Crowds surfing was a thing that happened in the 80s and thankfully has been mostly forgotten. Why this inspired such an angry post remains a mystery. Such is life.

Keep on keeping on.

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someone with actual job experience in the field of online support for example. someone who is not invested himself in the website nor community so he would be unprejudiced. Heck - there are even companies that outsource employers for this kind of job. But most important part is to act if you think something is wrong. If admin of this community you're talking about stepped in soon enough the problem could be averted. Same in my story - if they've seen agressive behaviour from said bodyguard in the past they should have fired him before he caused real serious harm which resulted in them losing money, risking going to court etc.

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whatever you're doing for living you're wasting your talent - you should be a politician, with your way of totally ignoring what others tell you and twisting their words just to fit your agenda. First of all user X may not be suitable for position, because as he is invested in the community he is much more likelly to take sides in any argument in said community. May side with their friends even if objectively they are in the wrong. Then you assumew out of thin air that hired person gotta be a "dickhead" - no reason whatsoever, other than presenting opposing argument in a vulgar manner to diminish it. Guess what - companies hire support members all over the world and in most cases they are generally objectivre and helpful people, not dickheads. But at this point no need to talk to you anymore, you already shown your moronic way of making a discussion - ignoring most of reply, putting words into one's mouth, using offensive language - I guess we're just lucky that such an invested "dickhead" like you is not the one in any form of power :3

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nope, you are ignorring whatever is a senseful argument you have no reply to :3
If the guy who was helping me is also a right person for position, not biased, with enough skills and time and willing to take the job? Great. If he's not it's much better to hire an outsider who will make better job than to keep paying him just because "well he helped me when it was free project". Futhermore - if he starts doing bad stuff like you mention it's also important to not keep him just because of sentiment but let him go for the sake of the project. A lot of great indie/opensource projects (a few I participated in) died because person managing them was too sentimental to let go of someone "who was with us from the very start" even at the point when they became toxic to the project itself.
Also if you are hiring online it's not a problem of "where do I find a guy who knows something about this niche". If you were hiring stationary - this may be a problem - they may be no people of said niche in your city, or all having better options that what you can provide, but online? There are billions of people using internet daily - no matter the niche you can find someone. You think finding someone with knowledge of niche games is a problem? There are probably millions of people online with enough knowledge.

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"if you hire an outsider you lose community" - no, you lose community if you hire a shitty outsider, if you hire a friendly and helpful professional you will not lose community, and if you do, then it was kinda worthless community if you can lose them over hiring a good pro but "omg! outsider in our inclusive club! let's all leave right now!"
Also SG is not a small niche community for a few people, it's a site that gets visited by tens of thousands unique users daily and wil a million registered accounts.

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playing friendly and helpful =/= not enforcing the rules. If there was a mod or mods dedicating enough time (or full time) into moderation and rule enforcement, even if doing so in a friendly and helpful matter, but not shying away from enforcing rules on people who still decide to misbehave - then yes. You and the people who "laught at rules" would get punished for that not like now - if something brings enough attention and heat to itself or is reported, but rather normally - something rulebreaking pops up, mod reacts. And with actual punishment, not like now "maybe you will be lucky and go away with it", you would either start following rules instead of laughing at them, keep sitting in time out or if cannot neither start behaving nor getting punishments - decide to leave the community. All of these options would be beneficial to the community as a whole.

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And thats fine, you get out via permaban and community is then better without you. Win-win situation :3

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rules aren't too soft nor forgiving - problem is that they are rarelly enforced because there is not much of a moderation. Remember that suspension time for repeated offences doubles, 1st time you may get 2 day suspension, next it will be 4, wait till you get 1 month (like certain individual who likes to harass other users), there's also been cases of ppl doing same stuff over and over again getting permaban (and no, no permaban for multiaccounts, but for repeated non-perma offences). Problem here is that without solid and full-time moderation most of rulebreakings go unnoticed and unpunished. You gotta really start a flame war full of hate speech that will go on for days for someone to finally notice it and take consequences. So problem is not with softness of rules but their enforcement. You can go for months with everyday rulebreaking and not get caught even once, eventually you will get 2 day suspension - then in context it is almost like nothing and when you get back you will go back to your actions right away. Now imagine hypothethically that we have full-time mods enforcing rules. You break rules daily? you get suspended daily, 2 days out and you're doing it again? the very day your suspension ends and you start it again you get 4 day suspension - you're already 2 days in and 6 days out in little over the week, with actual enforcement rules alone would keep toxic individual away long enough and he would either start following rules or would be almost absent from SG whatsoever (or qould quit, also good).

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then they would finally get punished and maybe next time think twice about breaking the rules. As it is now they mostly go unpunished at all, many may not even be aware they are breaking rules/guidelines. If over 90% of rulebreaking goes unnoticed they can never be unlucky enough to be caught, with proper moderation it would change.

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no, ever.

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sure you'd say so, if we have full-time-mods bigger chance that someone posting another harassment thread gets caught faster rather than after few days, right? ^^

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Depends on context. If their work in general is to be community representatives for company yes. It could very well be a real job with forum moderation as a part.

For hobbyist and fan sites not really possible or viable. There it shouldn't happen.

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Agreed. If you have a blog dedicated to mushrooms and a community forms and there are forums and 30-60-300-6000 people gather and discuss mushrooms and some of them get to be moderators as the thing grows, but it never becomes commercial project, it's all free/volunteer thing... no way you can pay them.

If you're a company, pay the people. Or if your hobby projects starts earning enough, pay the people.

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Last week, most of the moderators of the behemoth gaming forum NeoGAF resigned from their posts in the wake of sexual misconduct allegations against the site’s owner.

Holy crap. That's huge news.

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Sadly the death of "innocent until proven guilty" isn't news anymore 👀

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innocent until proven guilty has never been totally properly implemented, nor is it actually feasible.

Some venues strive to come as close as practically possible, some only pretend to.

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Also, it's a legal principle for how governments should treat citizens. Much like "freedom of speech" it's frequently misused and abused in various ways outside of the context of the government-citizen relationship.

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In my country it was pretty decently enforced in the pre "social" media era.
Even today it still could be enforced, if the judiciary system really wanted to. For instance, false rape accusation cases: the falsely accused is usually disclosed to the public way before the judgment is made, while the false accuser is usually protected, unless convicted (but even when convicted it happens that their name stays hidden).

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Pretty much 👀

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That was never much the case in the court of public opinion. And social medias have magnified those public opinions by making the information accessible to millions of people at once.

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If the owner is making a significant amount of money of the site, apart from the operational costs of running the site, then yes. Since you would just be profiteering of other people's good will otherwise.

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This!
I think if theres a gain from a website, mods should be participated if theres a huge workload and a quiet strict ruleset.
If not, first its not financially ok, and second in most countries having someone work for you 'officially' needs alot of other attention like vacation, taxes,...
So.. like FallenKal stated.. yes if it makes enough money!

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Some more NeoGAF stories, yay...

Apart from that, I'd say it really depends on the context. If tons of people are willing to do the job for free, why pay them? If noone is willing to do it for free, well sure I guess the only choice is to hire paid ones.
I guess it also depends on how profitable the site is: it makes sense to have volunteers help around a non-profit site or a site that barely covers its hosting costs. It makes less sense to have volunteers help around a site that makes billions of profits (for instance, would you imagine Facebook being moderated by volunteer mods? :D). So it's hard to answer the question without knowing how revenues are going ^^

Another thing to do could be to improve tools for auto-moderation. For instance:

  • rerolls could be automatically granted if the winner asks for it
  • GA deletions could be automatically granted if the GA creator asks for it and the winner approves
  • tickets to reroll based on the winner having broken a rule (non-activated or multiple wins) could be semi-automatically filtered by requiring the reporter to enter the date of the latest infraction (if latest infraction is older than the latest suspension, close the ticket)
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Edit: I can't read.

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We should make some non bundle giveaway every month that only site mods are allowed to enter and that should compensate for the time they put to moderate stuff.

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well its just an idea, a way to make things interesting for em and it totally goes with the theme of the site '' giveaway site = mods gets paid in games via private giveaway''

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only if they are moderated by a moderate moderator modernly mulling moderative modes of mondo maneuvres on mondays.

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paids involves paperwork and taxes, and almost all your copy-paste threads could be closed

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If you want to (re)pay them, white-list them or invite them to your groups, but paying with cash would require some form of consistent time commitment -- making it a second job for most -- when most probably make far more already than they would modding this site.

Having said that, I'd love to get paid to show up to work whenever I want. I don't think I'll be bringing that up at the next meeting, though.

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Only if I get paid in candy. Been visiting Amazon on a daily basis to buy a tub of banana flavoured laffy taffy at a reasonable price for the past 2 weeks. I'm running low, but I refuse to spend $40 per tub of candy! D:

OT: If I was paid to mod, then it would feel more like a real job and I don't need my soul crushed both in rl and online :/

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tub of banana flavoured laffy taffy

Hey, that is a weird way to say cherry flavored laffy taffy. :3

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I love cherries in rl (I buy a bag a day when they are in season) but nothing beats banana imo. That and it tastes very similar to a candy that I had as a kid that is not sold in Canada and I can't buy without flying to another country :/. I don't even think they make it anymore tbh and now I'm sad ;-;

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Doesn't ship to Canada :/. It goes on sale for about ~$20 CAD every now and then, so I just need to wait it out. Doesn't help that one seller decided to list the price at $20 but shipping at $80 -.-.

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Ah, the plight of the candy-craving addicts. I feel your pain. I've had zero luck finding a case of my favorite so far this year, and they only release it around Christmas. Good luck in your quest.

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How much candies so you can spend full time on moderating ? ^^ :P

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Enough to give me diabetes.
Pretty sure I'm almost there with my sweet tooth :/

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OT: If I was paid to mod, then it would feel more like a real job and I don't need my soul crushed both in rl and online :/

Ain't that the truth? P

6 years ago
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pays every moderator three truckloads of VirtualCookies™

6 years ago
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Sorry but I don't like cookies :/.

6 years ago
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They should be given more site benefits rather than money of sort.

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What kind of site benefits ?

6 years ago
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Mods can customize their profile banner instead of the mostly default black. Also, as Mully said below, free Patreon benefits.

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free patreon would be enough.

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But aren't dominance hierarchy arbitrary? After all, we all are equal, right?
The forums belong to the people, like a true democracy should work. I want no dirty businesspigs deciding for me. If the workers make all the resources, they should decide how to use them. If that's an utopian society, let's do the same with our forums. Lenin for 1922. Eisenstein movies are the best. You all have to watch a cinema classic like Alexander Nekvsy, with the flawless score of Prokofiev. A movie so good it's like a medieval Star Wars.
Ever heard Jazz Suite, from that Shostakovich guy? Well, you can't surpass that masterpiece.
I also like Holst, Bizet and Vivaldi.

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Slaves should not get pay or be compensated.

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I'm assuming any ad money gained goes into site improvements and paying for hosting. If there's anything left over, it would be nice if it went to mods and anyone else who may be doing work to help keep the website running.

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Yeah like if you've got enough for some games then some mod-only GAs or something. I dunno.

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View attached image.
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Ok sure, if I can be paid for helping my mom take care of my bedridden father for the past 3 years. (Where's all that backpay going to come from though...) honestly, it's a volunteer position, if people don't want to volunteer any longer then they can quit.

My point is...no one is going to be in danger if the mods all quit. Maybe this site would shut down, but that is hardly the end of the world.More likely there would be a new crop of mods and life would go on.

ETA:Before people cry foul, I respect what the moderators do, and am grateful for the ones who do volunteer to make SG a better place.I have volunteered a lot in my lifetime and can say that I might not have done it as a job. Two examples:

  1. I have both been employed by bicycle shops and worked at community centers to fix bikes for less fortunate people, taught children how to fix their own bikes, and certainly wouldn't have done both if they were jobs. I got way more out of the volunteer experience but I also know it would've created hierarchy and competition if we added paychecks into a co-operative environment.(I can imagine SG would see a surge of opportunists who didn't want to mod to help cg but because they wanted compensation.)

  2. I taught GED classes at a halfway house in college and then became a substitute teacher for awhile. Although both positions came with responsibility, the subbing was obnoxious because of the lack of control I had over virtually everything. True, some of that is because substitute teachers are generally treated with kid gloves and given very little respect, but I also just "went through the motions" of subbing and did what was required of me, no more. That wasn't fair to the kids, though, so eventually I quit. Burnout already happens with volunteers, I feel like when you pay someone they either feel like they have to earn it,creating tension within the group potentially, or, since they're already being paid, they can slack off. I'm not saying this would happen for sure but it just seems like more trouble than it is worth.

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We get blacklisted for the same reason :P

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You have just "Invite only" giveaways and still wonder why you blacklisted?

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Hardly a sin, is it?
If you lurked around the forums a bit more, you would notice jatan does daily forum giveaways, puzzles sometimes.

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Invite only giveaways are typically publicly-available giveaways. They just appear in the forum and not in the giveaways feed.

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Thats the problem. Im just 1 or 2 times each month in the forum.

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I can see why it would be a problem for some, but personally I prefer to reward those who enter via the forum. I have much better overall experience with them than with those who enter only public GAs. Forum members are typically more familiar with the rules, more communicative, and they tend to actually say thanks. I appreciate all of these things, which is why I created more than twice as many forum GAs than public ones.

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It may surprise you, but the main reason we get blacklisted is because of the bans we give out.

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Then maybe you should stop ban everyone for stupid reasons.

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Or maybe people could start to follow the rules and not get bans altogether.

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The guidelines/rules are not up-to-date. There are even more rules than everyone knows.

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And yet, the vast majority of users have no difficulty with not getting banned.

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In a perfect world, sure, and a lot. But in a perfect world, everyone would.

In this imperfect world, it shouldn't be assumed by mods that they'd get paid. But if the mods reach an agreement with the site owner about getting paid, then sure, why not.

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That's why I said, "in a perfect world". In reality, this wouldn't work.

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Should forum mods be paid?

For what? Sleeping the whole day?

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if they were to get paid, I can sense... mass unemployment.

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It’s important to not exploit the goodwill of your community members by asking them to do unreasonable amounts of uncompensated labor.

You mean, like having to match your games manually at SteamTrades? ;)
I used to be a believer that if you build a (trading or whatever) site and make it as easy & fun as possible to use, the audience will come. I was proven wrong by the simple fact that there are millions of SteamTrades users (well, maybe not millions...), and I'm struggling to even reach a thousand.

I think that most people are just masochists. (The alternative explanation would be even worse.)

As such, 'big' sites with many visitors don't really need to pay mods-- if one is just tired of moderating or whatever other chore, they'll quit, and be shortly replaced by another enthusiast. What's hard is to make sure to maintain moderation quality throughout staff changes. But then, you get what you pay for. ;)

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They should absolutely be rewarded. But let's be real, if a job is done for free, a company/website is never like to suddenly give them money. It's a psychological effect too - if you give too little money then you swtich to money norm and they will be offended and refuse to do the job. So I think rewards, recognition is the safest way to go. If the website was reddit then it would be different.

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