Lesson number 1: almost NOTHING of what Valve is doing these days is even remotely ok. But somehow users are still taking their shit and sucking their dick, treating Steam like it's the second coming of Christ. Like how a lot of people buy Ubisoft games on Steam, even though they run through two game clients at once. Instead of doing the smart thing and just buying them directly on UPlay, thus cutting the middle man. Valve doesn't deserve such loyalty, especially when this misplaced loyalty hinders your own experience(I mean, what kind of twat do you have to be to like running a game on two fucking clients at once?) So of course Steam can treat us like shit since they have a great part of us eating out of their hands.
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Riiiiight. It's Valve's fault that Ubisoft is willing to sell games on Steam but unwilling to allow you not to deal with Ubisoft's own proprietary DRM and logins.
Nice try, Ubishill.
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First of all, Ubisoft has the right to sell their games on whatever platform they like. Wheter or not the existence of Uplay is justified is NOT in discussion here(cause it totally is). You don't like it? Then don't buy the games. They're supposed to have games on Steam just because you like Steam? Don't be douche-bag. That would be fine if, just like in EA's case, their games would be exclusively sold on their own client. But they made this fucking deal with Valve to also sell their games on Steam, but running a double client. WHY?????? Or do you think Ubisoft just took that decision on their own? You know, Valve could have said no, but they didn't cause they're a bunch of money grubbing a-holes. I'm not saying that it's their fault entirely. I consider them BOTH equally as big nob-ends(Valve and Ubisoft). But if I'm to choose between running the game on two clients or running it exclusively on UPlay, hell yeah I'll choose the latter(lesser of two evils I guess). Why does Valve deserve my loyalty? After all the OTHER shit they pulled? Latest of which is this AVT dodging thing which they're now planning to dump on OUR BACKS by inflating prices artificially rather than giving some of the profits they already make to the EU? You know why Ubisoft's prices are higher? Cause they actually payed taxes. My point was that the reason why Valve treats us the way they do(LIKE SHIT) is because we allow it by swallowing all the shit they pull. The Ubisoft games thing was just one of the MANY examples. So...screw you, Valve!
Disclaimer: I'm not an Ubisoft fan, I think they're as bad as everyone else in the industry and when UPlay first came out was a total piece of shit. I can understand its existence, but not the fact that it's shit. Thankfully it has gotten a lot better now. But still, the only reason I prefer my Ubi games on Uplay, is cause of convenience(not having two fucking clients running the same game). I don't have any loyalty towards them, as I don't towards Valve. So nice try, sucker of Gabe Newell's cock.
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It could also have something to do with the fact that Uplay is a very small client and Ubisoft could shut it down whenever they want.
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You know there's a little thing called retail, right? All hard copies of Ubisoft games can be activated on Uplay and cost a whole lot less than their digital versions from the UPlay store or even Steam. Soo...no valid argument there. I bought AC 4 Black Flag for about 15 dollars. How much does it cost on Steam again?
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In the US maybe,, but here in Europe it'll be 10 euro. But at the store, you don't have to hunt down sales cause that's the actual full price. If you catch a stock liquidation you can get it for a ridiculously low price. Even if you don't, 5 dollars saved is hardly worth playing the game both with Steam and Uplay at the same time.
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I know that taxes are important and necessary but still... Here in Poland games are extremely expensive since all the prices are in euros. I don't buy much but when the prices will go up, I will probably buy nothing or almost nothing...
About the whole thing Valve is doing... I don't know if it's right or not. Although, I am 100% sure they should introduce local currencies to some more countries as they did for Russia.
Another funny thing Valve is doing (I've just found out about it): M&B: Warband costs 1,49 Euro (full price: 7,49 Euro) here in Poland. I asked a Friend from USA to check price for this one. Guess what... It was $4.34 for him with the same discount (and Full price of: $14.99). I'm asking: What's wrong with it? I know that developers (or whoever) can influence the price for their game but come on! Such a big difference between US and EUR prices? I really don't get it... Someone explain it to me, please D:
PS. I'm not complaining about certain price here or anything, I just wanted to say how surprised I am with this thing...
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I don't want Valve to dodge taxes, what I want is to not be overcharged for a game. 50 US dollars is not 50 euros (it's actually around €41), but EU citizens have to pay €50 nonetheless-- now add tax on top of that and you can see why people are kind of upset. The excuse for charging €50 used to be that EU people didn't have to pay taxes; I wonder what the excuse will be now?
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It's actually EU guideline to have all listed consumer prices include the VAT amount. So the $1 = €1 is a lazy way of setting net prices high enough to generate a Net price that can cover the VAT, making it a viable excuse. Still a poor excuse, as consumers still often pay more than with a proper price conversion.
Valve needs start handing over the excess tax money they collected to the appropriate governments without hiking up the price further, or they should really start doing appropriate price conversion & tax calculations per country. The second option will be the more controversial as that'd mean less consistent prices, which is sure to upset some people.
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I think the new legislation is a step in the right direction. Up until now, money earned elsewhere in Europe was being taxed in Luxembourg for every company large enough to station an office there and enter into a bilateral agreement with the Duchy. They didn't even have to adhere to normal tax laws.
Valve doesn't have to raise prices to stay competitive. Most of its rivals sold games at a lower price, even though they were taxed more at their country of origin. I think preparing to respond to a price hike is a bit premature, especially considering the profit margin the $1=1€ policy affords.
My main problem is that smaller, cheaper e-tailers affected by the new legislation are going to have a hard time adjusting to the new system and may eventually be driven out of the market.
For the record, I made my view on this pretty clear here.
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At the end of the day, it doesn't matter who's responsible for huge and unreasonable price jumps, those who will pirate, will pirate, and that's all good. Honestly, the tax increases are one thing, but just because it's an old issue, I'm still not willing to overlook the dollar=euro prices that we have in a fucking third world shit of a country here. To this day, one game at full price is about 10% of my monthly salary (average), and if people from here say they're not going to pay that much for it, they have all the rights to say that.
Besides, wasn't it rampant piracy that caused russian prices to fall drastically? If they're sending any messages here, it's this: if you mass pirate our stuff, we might actually lower our prices. Classic video game publisher logic right there.
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Very well put, OP.
Steam is already charging us more in Europe because of the $1 = €1 policy, yet they're not paying the taxes that would actually be an acceptable excuse for the price difference (because AFAIK it works a bit differently in the USA). Well, fuck'em. I'm already paying through the nose because I live in a fairly poor and completely fucked-up country (Croatia), so the "dirt cheap" games aren't cheap for me at all. I'm even in the more expensive EU region AFAICT, and my purchasing power is such that I almost exclusively buy bundles and discounted games.
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The European commission and the government of every country in Europe are more corrupt than Valve, which is also greedy to an extent (it needs to pay server costs and stuff). Why are you defending taxes? is your country using all the funds it receives to spend? I just pay for games to have fun and support developers. The other parties which get money for this game are thieves. Most big corporations have offshore accounts, as banks and rich corrupt politicians do. Steam was totally legit in operating through Luxembourg with lower taxes; afterall certain countries are better off in Europe by far.
Steam should sell games to each country depending on how much money most people earn there, as well as take into account the cost of living and taxes.
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People shoul pay taxes and for things that isn't the things you really needd to survive I don't really see a problem. And for the people that are saying it is communist go read something, you are dumb as shit.
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OMG it took over houndred years of propaganda to convince people democracy is "good" now its the socialism propaganda,Stalin`s words: "give people democracy and they will choose socialism."were true.
Lets start with income tax,check its origin,before WWII there was no such a thing,USA governemnt asked its nation for a "loan" to have money to continue the war,once again it was meant as a loan,something temporary(not something necessery for anything).Its not good,its not natural,its stiling while wearing white gloves.What you call tax dodging is actually not inviting thief into your house.If you have a chance and know how to do it do not pay it,why should you?Does government provide your merchandise,store,air or the ground your store is build on?The only other time in history where there was an income tax,was payed by roman slaves(they could keep some money they earned on their free time).Make no mistake,if your forced to pay,just cause you are earning money,your being treated like a slave.
Your saying it works in Scandinavia,yes,with relativly small amount of people and rich in high valued resources it can work still your prices are high on everything and as far as i know export is your main income.Now look at ZSRR i think the largest country with all possible resources during socialism people were so poor that the mothers eat their own children(read about it).What happened when Putin made their market much more open and friendly?Russia grow.Look at China after market reforms,they became the richest country in the world.
Now your Bringing USA economy in the table,and you remain ignorant to the fact that Obama is a socialist,every single reform he brought to people of America was social...ekhm...
There is something fundamental about economy you dont understand,people need to earn money,employers are no different.In practice it means if employer has to pay more due to hiring people,he will be forced to pay them less and possibly fire some if not most of hes employees.If he will be forced to pay more for his merchandise the customers will have to pay more in order for him to make profit.Its simple its fundamental,taxes rise always putts regular people in the harms way,always!
Now tell me exactly to what purpose those taxes are needed?to found politicians holidays new cars and villas?Well fuck that.The word "Minister" means servant,they are meant to serve us not the the other way around.
-BETTER DEAD THAN RED
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u 2 guys are the reason why democracy is such a bad system,u both either dont know what the socialism is,or what Obama is doing,but u both have the right to vote,dont even want to go into the fact that u both coment on the least important thing i mentioned,which indicates lack of ability to read with understanding and U STILL HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE.
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Bare naked facts,like i said you have no idea what socialism is.
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you know, EU's Council always leaves a small window in every law for the big heads. They make their money from here, they will give them back something somewhere else. They give a shit about the customers :)
The chain of annuity cannot break (there is actually an economic theory behind it which predicts exactly how much each pocket will gain from this kind of laws, competitions, etc, etc. when i say theory i mean libraries of books ;) check it out if you wish). So, valve won't pay a euro more in tax at the end of the year.
Imo, tax dodging is the goal nowadays.
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I don't mind taxes being put on games like this, as long as game prices don't get ridiculous. I just wish there were a law that enforced a refund policy on Steam, I'm pretty sure there is for almost everything else you buy in the Europe, or at least the UK.
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Steam doesn't provide any physical goods, only digital. Get your facts straight before you go getting angry at Steam. Plus it's DRM, and most of the games it provides have DRM too. You don't own anything you buy on Steam, why be taxed for digital-only goods you can't own or even physically touch? It's ridiculous. Next you'll be saying we should be taxed for the very air we're breathing.
I can understand websites like Amazon being forced to tax the physical goods they sell, but once again, those are physical goods.
Plus, tax isn't theft? I will mostly agree with that statement, but what about European countries like Italy that have extremely high VAT rates, such as 22%? That's the tax that covers, among other areas, their DIGITAL GOODS purchased, like for instance if they buy from Bunglestars, so who's to say that's not theft? I say if it's exploited and blown out of proportion by governments, that's another ballpark...
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I ... have my facts straight. I'm angry at Steam for exploiting an outdated law since forever. Valve have basically been stealing from us (Europeans) all the time while misguided fan boys defended them to their last breath. The reason games are more expensive in EU is because of tax - was a common argument. Turns out this was kinda bullshitty.
Anyway, the notion that digital goods should be tax free is ridiculous because money itself has digital properties nowadays. So I guess we could skip tax all together now? A digital product is just as real as anything else, or are you one of those people who define "substantive" as "something you can have in your pocket"? It's an old fashioned view you've there, in a world that becomes more and more digital. It reminds me of my mother who claims digital art isn't "real". Blehrg.
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+1
No physical goods are involved, especially since we don't have any rights of clear ownership until the end of the universe.
Steam was taking advantage of the lower tax in Luxembourg legally and they were EXPLOITING European customers by charging them more than people in other countries at extortionately higher rates-yes this is totally WRONG.
These new tax shenanigans are the European Commission(EC)'s wrongdoings, and they are always up to no good and customers in Europe will either be charged the same (Steam lowering profit margins) or the most likely scenario of European customers being charged even more.
The EC have not done any good for any country (apart from the elite and secret societies), they are just a club. It is well known each person who works there gets paid loads of doing nothing. Also once they found drugs there; I'm just explaining the extent of the corruption.
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You are REALLY stupid. In basic economy, there are 2 major ways a company can make a profit: by offering a product or a service. The fact that we can't touch the games, cause they have no physical copies, only means Valve doesn't offer a product, but a service. But it doesn't make any difference. They still get money from people and therefore still make a profit. Why the fuck should the governments care whether we, the Steam customers, actually own the games or not? They want Valve's money, not ours. And it's their right to want it. Any company, regardless of field, is obliged to pay taxes. It's how economies work, you retarded twat. Now, if Steam lifts up the prices of the services they offer because now they have to give up a share of their profits with the EU, rather than just paying up out of the profit they're already making, that just means they're also a bunch of dip-shit cunts, on top of being filthy tax dodgers. Which we all know they most certainly are.
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I'm with you.
Enough shit we eat with the 1USD = 1Euro.
I will buy one last game in summer when it comes out and i'm done with Steam. I have lots of games to play yet.
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No, Valve paid it according to Luxembourg's rate (15%).
2003-2009: VAT according to your country added to USD price.
2009-2012: VAT paid according to your country, included in EUR price
2012-2014: VAT paid according to Luxembourg's rate, included in EUR price.
2015-: VAT paid according to your country.
I guess(hope) we go back to second.
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We are paying tax, but Valve are using a loop hole to get lower tax while cashing in on all ze monies
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I think best way is to expand the revenue limits for physical goods would be best way. That is if business sells for over 35k or 100k worth of products they will only then become responsible to pay VAT to buyers country. At either of those points I think it's fair to assume that cost isn't too great.
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Apparently laws will change, soon. It has been hard to miss on this forum and others, like Reddit. The European Union wants Steam (and similar services like Amazon and Spotify) to pay value-added tax in the country of purchase. An the reaction of a potential(!) increase in price of already dirt cheap Steam games has been violent. Of course it has, we gamers don't have this sticky, bad, reputation for nothing.
Anyway, let me get this straight.
You guys (because the overall consensus was negative) believe it's okay for Steam (and similar services) to dodge tax. Just like rich people do, when they flee to Cayman Islands. The European Union is one of the few places where the power of big companies are being fought (at least on some level) and that's actually a good thing. You can see that, right? The European Union is stomping on Steam, not on us - the consumer. If companies would in return stomp on us, is another topic entirely. Tax is not theft. It's necessary. And for the record, the attitude "I pirate now because games may be more expensive because they're a human right and I cannot live without them" damages the whole PC-scene okay?
TL;DR Blame the publishers and other companies - not the European Union. Tax dodging IS NOT OKAY.
/end rant
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