Do you group buy?
What will happen to GroupBuys I don't know because I have never used it.
But with those updated fees it most probably will have an impact as some people will try to look for a cheaper\other method.
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Wao, they getting greedy. I would like an alternative for paypal, had no luck finding one before. I never bought anything from GroupBuy because paypal doesn't support linking to Croatian banks (meaning my only option was to use credit card which in turn means I have to pay the fees) and I wasn't happy with the fees I'd have to pay to paypal even before this change.
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dobt it will stay that way for long but here's hoping.
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We’re removing the variable rate pricing for sending money to friends and family members who have PayPal accounts in a country other than the United States when you send money using PayPal balance or your bank account and introducing a new flat fee of $2.99 or $4.99 per transaction depending on the recipient’s country.
O.O
Are they fucking insane?
This will kill Groupbuys. Goodbye to bundle splitting also.
Edit: And that is not even all.
However, when you send money using your credit card, debit card, or PayPal credit you will be charged the new flat fee per transaction depending on the recipient’s country + 2.9% of the transaction amount + a fixed fee based on the currency.
Good thing looking for alternatives now. Greedy assholes
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Not entirely clear to me - does this affect general payments then (such as buying from humble bundle) or not? I dont have a paypal account, so only use the pay by debit card option through them.
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does this also go for dollar denominated F&F?
how many paypal accounts have a fake address anyway?
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I just checked, they removed F&F option completely. Now there's only "Send money" and "Request money" available.
However, I just tried sending a dollar somewhere, and the fees were the usual $0.01
Either it's not implemented yet or it's only taken into account for higher amounts.
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Actually, that's just a content bug on their site... Though they don't seem to care much about it. Try a different internet connection (preferably mobile) and it should work.
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After giving an adress you can then decide between F&F or Business.
That was atleast the way it worked yesterday when I group bought.
Who in their right minds would ever use Paypal to send any amounts of money if it costs 5 dollar though? Pretty sure it'll be them shooting themselves in the foot.
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Singapore never had the option of Friends and Family so this indirectly affects me.
But wow. Paypal and their greed is a bit much :/
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I will enjoy watching PayPal lose it's customers. I stopped using it 6 months ago after I had to deal with their support (again).
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I had to deal with their support once, because bought smth in U.S. and wanted it to be shipped to germany, seller didnt send it, paypal didnt want to give me the money back because "theres customs fees on your product". In the end i got it back but they are morons.
That new fee was predictable tho, since my F&F says "No fee for EUR transactions within the EU. No buyer protection." so maybe it was never meant for other currencies.
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Looks like they are also removing Buyer Protection unless you log in from your (probs verified too) account and use PayPal balance for the purchase or transfer.
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PayPal already monopolized the biggest part of the "market pie", lots of sites don't even accept anything but cards and that (and local options based on the country). I don't think it'll lose many customers do these changes since sadly there isn't really any worthy analogue of same level and with same coverage.
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They will lose the smaller transactions. People will stop sending payments <50$ and using PayPal for anything else but business/online purchases will become pointless.
They just want to fuck people working abroad who send money to their families.
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The thing is - they probably don't care about those. I don't think that many people (compared to a total number of active users) use PayPal to send small payments internationally. If the amount is big enough like 300> these 5 bucks wouldn't matter much for most who work and use it that way.
But of course, there are way better terms available for our providers though the point is that PayPal is one of a few who is accepted almost everywhere, a multi tool of sorts. They probably thought like "Hey, why are we charging so little for F/F when we can exploit our monopoly position outside of US? Let's fix it guys.".
So far Payoneer , Revolut and Epayments look more or less like suitable replacement, but only for sending payments as they can't completely replace PP for making purchases too.
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Well when I faced this problem a few months back, I already had a reserved spot with someone doing GroupBuys. I just sent bulk payments in advanced, usually about $30 USD, since I knew I was going to get most bundles anyways. This will probably be the default for most moving forward though those who are more selective will end up being screwed :/.
Still sucks, but since Paypal does not have a popular alternative yet so they'll just behave like Cartman from Southpark :/.
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bulk payments seems to be a clever solution, i like it (maybe even groupbuy hosts will benefit)...
what i'm "reading" in paypal updates is "we don't want your micropayments anymore", so may be just a matter of time that a new mini-paypal will jump in.
meanwhile, we'll do what we want!
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I've done the bulk payment a few times myself. Definitely a good option if you've got a regular and reliable seller.
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did this affected fees on "pay goods and services"?
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No, only F&F. Depending on the amount, G&S can be cheaper than F&F with the new fee structure.
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they definetly dont like the free transfers of the F&F. sending 30usd after this going live will be still cheaper with payment for good than with F&F.
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I already thought the friends and family fee was ridiculously high. But this is just insane.
Maybe Skrill (previously moneybookers) is a good alternative. "Sending money to an email address or another Skrill wallet costs 1.45% of the amount sent" That's not too bad I guess.
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Well, Group Buy a bundle is one thing, but those selling and buying Bundle Split and Leftover are going to be hit the hardest. Each transaction is usually below a dollar to 3-4 dollars, and it's not recurring like Group Buy, which makes this pricing non-sense for people to buy anything from there at all.
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No more Indiegala bundles for me I guess, unless I can pay in gems. I only buy occasional bundles with games I would like to play so it would cost a lot and I don't want to use cryptocurrency. Already had to pay fees for F&F and now this. This sucks so much, why must Paypal be like this :/.
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Do I understand this correctly that transactions to business accounts like buying a Bundle from Humble or Fanatical... or paying for movie tickets won't be affected (for now) ?
Well, I guess than means GroupBuys are dead. BundleSplits are dead. Selling games for PayPal is dead. Or the prices will notably increase to make up for the Steam market fees if people switch to item payment.
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Eh, "a new flat fee of $2.99 or $4.99 per transaction" wtf? What if you send an amount less than that, like $1 or $2?
It doesn't make sense that you have to pay the same $3-5 flat fee for $1 and $10000....
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I'm Canadian and when I paid for something F&F $1.44, there was a matching $1.44 fee, and as far as I'm aware it matches 100% all the way up til $3 with $3( or 5+5) fee then plus 2.9% when past that amount. This was a few months ago when Canada was first affected so idk if it's changed now but the chart over here looks the same to me.
Not using F&F has less fees I believe, not sure about that after changes.
tl;dr - rip under $5
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I see, at least the fee isn't bigger than the payment. Well from what I see reading the comments, paypal details etc, nothing will change for US to US and EU to EU payments. For others, there's still the option to use paying for goods and services, if they don't change it, it's about $0.3 + 2.9 to 5 % (depends on where you send the money).
As for the groupbuys, people will try to choose sellers from the same continent or pay some fees. It will definitely make things harder, more people will send bulk payments to avoid fees for each payment, but groupbuys won't die I think...
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I had F&F option last year, and used it once, but when I tried to send money to a friend in US in January it wasn't there anymore. Just sent it like a regular transaction and added a bit more to cover for that.
But yes, for any "non-emergency" use, paypal is not the 1st choice anymore.
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They noticed people were having too many friends and family members and they're taking action against it.
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why don't you guys use something like ethereum/zcash/litecoin instead?
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Because, no one accepts those as the payment method I guess.. If you've ever visited groupbuys group, you might have seen the "PP only" tags...
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no i realize that's how it is at the moment, i'm saying if you guys want a replacement payment method, it might be good to look into crypto
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If I have to buy $1 in ethereum (or whatever), send $1 in ethereum and turn it back into $1, wouldn't I have to pay a lot more in fees? O.o Usually on group buys all the fees are on the buyer, so I'd have to pay for 3 fees for a single payment =_='
https://www.coindesk.com/bought-first-bitcoin-ether-now-brace-fees/
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yes you would.. but if you keep a store of eth and only exchange it when it gets to a certain amount (let's say $100 worth) the fees end up being pretty small
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It's not all that well known yet but there are cryptos like Nano which are fee-free and almost instant for transfers. Main downside is they're still very volatile in value at the moment because most holders are speculators. Nano in particular is ideally suited to micro-payments like these groupbuys would use.
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Well. I guess the only "good news" is that it only affects US accounts.
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I would say so. First paragraph.
PayPal is making some changes to its User Agreement, Privacy Policy, PayPal Here Agreement and the PayPal Website Payments Pro and Virtual Terminal Agreement that will be effective as to all PayPal users in the U.S. on April 19, 2018.
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The text is different based on your location. Changes will affect everyone from what I can see.
Though it's not clear to me what all fees are to be added in the future.
If all mentioned fees are added it's ridiculous and will definitely kill micropayments completely.
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No that's the US page that's specifically been linked to. Some regions will have their own variants but not all of them. I know when I checked the UK changes the other day there was one specific article that actually noted it didn't apply in a certain area (probably N. Ireland).
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Ok, not sure how I ended up in a document specifying Finland in couple of places (where I live). Anyway, EU area is definitely affected by this, possible exceptions excluded.
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Does this only affects friend and family or all kinds of payments? I've never had F&F here so I'm not sure if this will affect me or not, I've always sent money for group buys through the payment option. Will those fees also get increased?
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In layman's terms:
If you send $100 via the Friends and Family option, you pay:
- In the best case scenario: 5.89% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
- In the worst case scenario: 7.89% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
If you send $10 via the Friends and Family option, you pay:
- In the best case scenario: 32.8% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
- In the worst case scenario: 52.8% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
If you send $1 via the Friends and Family option, you pay:
- In the best case scenario: 302% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
- In the worst case scenario: 502% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
If you want to do charity, you can send $0.02 via the Friends and Family option and you pay:
- In the best case scenario: 14950% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
- In the worst case scenario: 24950% (in fees) + an undisclosed fixed fee.
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We’re removing the variable rate pricing for sending money to friends and family members who have PayPal accounts in a country other than the United States when you send money using PayPal balance or your bank account and introducing a new flat fee of $2.99 or $4.99 per transaction depending on the recipient’s country. However, when you send money using your credit card, debit card, or PayPal credit you will be charged the new flat fee per transaction depending on the recipient’s country + 2.9% of the transaction amount + a fixed fee based on the currency
This has something to do with cross-border payments.
So the thing is like this:
| Amount Received | Bank Account Cost | CC/DC/PP Cost |
|---|---|---|
| $X | FlatFee + X | FlatFee + 2.9% ⃰ X + FixedFee |
| $100 | $102.99 | $106.19 |
| $10 | $12.99 | $13.58 |
| $1 | $3.99 | $4.32 |
| $0.01 | $3 | $3.31 |
FlatFee = if(country, $2.99, $4.99)
FixedFee = something like $0.3~0.6
Best case: FlatFee = $2.99 & FixedFee = $0.3
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I don't think there's anything wrong with my explanation, is there?
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Your explanation was accurate, nothing "wrong" with it really, Sh4dow just did some maths and put it into a nice chart format with the simplified maths :D
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I thought it was correction and I was wondering what for :).
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Looks like Paypal is setting itself up to become like one of those crappy payday lenders we hate so much here in the UK - high interest at any cost just to screw over the little guy :(
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Jesus.... Bye bye group buys via PP.
What else is the alternative?
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I feel for you guys. I don't have access to a modern payment method for the time being, it'd be a while before I can use my PayPal account, I only have Steam wallet funds to buy games (I buy physical wallet codes from local stores with my own currency), so hopefully the Groupbuys guys won't give up and would be more willing to accept alternate currencies such as CSGO Keys and Gems.
I only bought a bundle through Groupbuys once, I payed mine with a TF2 key, which costs more than the PayPal price the guy was asking for, but I didn't mind paying a little extra', it's still a great deal and costs a lot less than buying the bundle directly or the games individually from Steam.
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"We’re clarifying that when purchasing or sending money, we may require a backup payment method for your transaction(s) to be used if the selected payment method is declined, expired or otherwise unavailable."
What does this mean? Linking to our bank isn't good enough anymore and now we need to add a separate credit card? wtf? Are they going to ask for copies of out birth certificate and a blood sample next?
"We’re adding terms that apply to marketplace sellers. If you sell on a marketplace and accept payment through your PayPal account, a hold may be placed on a payment sent to you at the instruction of the marketplace."
Why do ebay and paypal seem to hate sellers so much? I found out the hard way about a year ago just how skewed the rules are in favor of buyers. If your a major business it's not too bad, but small-time sellers are treated like dirt.
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Insane hike..
just to note, that $3+ applies to border-crossing payments, meaning within a country there is no fee.
Also if business-sends remain the same they will be cheaper to use with just a $0.30 + some %..
also venmo is owned by paypuke, don't bother with that, lol
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This change is for every user of paypal
So i saw this the other day: PayPal Policy Updates
Looks like PayPal updated their fees for everyone like they did with Canadians 5 months ago: SG thread
This will be a heavy hit for groupbuys that rely on PayPal and not on SteamWallet, CSGO Keys, Gems or other alternative methods.
What do you think it will happen to GroupBuys?
Any good alternative to paypal? Do you use google wallet or venmo? How about Amazon Pay?
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