Thanks, I like this change. While it may not be the perfect solution, I certainly prefer having the ability to post bundle keys. Having looked at the "list of bundles and abused games" though, I only see bundle games there. What about Faerie Solitaire, Lucid and such, and what about exploited keys?
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They're marked on the drop down when creating a giveaway with an asterisk (*) after their name.
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(At least a brief explanation of what that asterisk means (located right next to the drop box) would be great, since users not reading the forums will have no idea.)
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How would they police the giveaways - ie how'd they make sure someone isn't giving away keys despite saying they are giving a gift?
And as mentioned above, if you have an Indie giftable game that's been in a bundle already then its value will be decreased 'For The Greater Good'. If you were specially buying a game to giveaway, check it isn't on the list first to get full value.
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I think you should add two radio buttons on the Create a Giveaway page. One would be "Steam gift", the other "Bundle key" and users should choose what it actually is. People who would still exploit this options should get permanently banned from this site. That's how the contributor value for games that aren't keys from various bundles would still be as they should be.
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Many have suggested it. Even myself. But it won't work. Simple as that. "Ohh I didn't see the key part!" Or some other excuse.
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Exactly. The whole bundle situation proves that if people can break the rules and get away with it, they will.
Excellent work Steamgifts. A workable and sensible solution.
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I suggested a way in the thread linked above but no-one, least of all support, seems to have paid much attention. Copied here for ease:
chuckie100 has pointed out that there is a link that appears at the bottom of a Steam gift e-mail that takes you to a web-page where you can redeem it via your web-browser. This link is viewable by anyone and remains even after you've actually redeemed the gift to your inventory/library.
If there was an option to check a third checkbox saying, "received as giftable copy", and asking the receiver to paste in that URL (after they've redeemed it), SteamGifts support would be able to quickly click on the link and see that the copy given was a giftable copy from the inventory, not a bundle key.
inb4 too hard:
I understand that SteamGifts support are overworked, but the links would go into the database against the gifter automatically, therefore:
The only downside is if you gave away a giftable copy and the receiver doesn't acknowledge the fact, which is no worse than the currently proposed solution.
This doesn't work if you send the gift directly through Steam, or if you give a non-bundle (e.g. GamersGate/Amazon) key, but it at least goes part way toward solving the problem...
So basically, if the redeemer is a nice guy, the gifter could receive full credit. As far as I can see...
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If this is doable, it sounds like a good suggestion.
About otherwise acquired keys - there aren't that many places where you can get steam keys for the games that were in a bundle (maybe humble bundle store once it goes up fully), so I figure it wouldn't pose much of an obstacle.
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honestly, some people have trouble getting their winners just to mark it as received. Making that into even more work will have negative side effects.
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Well, not a perma-ban for picking the wrong option, but it would be cool if you pick what bundle you got it from and then deny submission of the giveaway until they pick that it is not a bundle key or pick a bundle that allows gifting. Optionally, tracking those that picked a bundle key and then changed it after. Almost always going to be a lie, but could have been an accident too.
This way, people would know if a bundle is gift-able and not against the ToS from the bundler and SG.
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Sigh still lost my precious 20$ :( even if the games i did give were gifts from steam, but still better than update 1.
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That really would be the best thing as it stops the abusers for good, as they would have no reason to exploit. It would also help the community, as it would become just a site for gifting. People wouldn't have to worry about their legit sources being questioned, or report-happy users, and the site would stop being a competition between gifters (a cause of much of the drama).
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Since the reporting is now going to be a bit more complicated business, could we get a clear statement, preferably in a form of a yes/no list, about what is considered report-worthy, and what is not? For example:
Indie Gala TOS: "The Service is only for sales of products or product rights (collectively, "Products") to end user customers for their personal, non-commercial use."
Indie Royale FAQ: "Sharing Steam keys because you already own a game in the bundle is not allowed."
Humble Bundle TOS: "The Service is only for sales of products or product rights (collectively, "Products") to end user customers for their personal, non-commercial use."
Groupees TOS: "The Service is only for sales of products or product rights (collectively, "Products") to
end user customers for their personal, non-commercial use."
So, should we keep reporting these ones (and some (which?) others that I have forgotten and that also explicitly forbid key gifting), or is the support instructed to turn a blind eye to these, and the reports would be useless and would only bother them? Because I already see people going "yadda yadda I can gift IndieGala/IndieRoyale/whatever keys now". (Some of them even linking the very same TOS pages I quoted above, which would be hilarious, if it weren't so sad.)
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TOS are policy of the bundle, not SG. Also acording EU law I think nobody can enforce me what to do with my property (that is just a guess), Giving games is non-commercial use. If you violate TOS, it is between you and bundle, By enforcing users to stop violating TOS of bundle youre just going to be hated, because (I guess) you are not the employee of any named bundle.
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Well, "[i]f you believe a giveaway needs to be removed, please use the report button" -- I believe that these wishes of bundle organizers deserve to be followed, even if they are, of course, by no means a law.
I think it is nice to support indie devs (by encouraging more users to buy the bundles or games from them), and I would like to know if SteamGifts administration shares this view, or if my reports (because I do "believe those giveaways need to be removed") will be ignored, and will only bother the support. (In which case, there would be no point in such reporting.)
(Oh, and giving it away is non-commercial, but I don't think it is personal.)
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Well, report button is for free and everyone, so use it if you think you should. Worse are users, who think that report button is not enough.
I dont share your beliefs, but they are yours, and nobody can take them from you.
I just hope your beliefs wont be heard, because I am going to do anything I want with my property protected by law :)
PS. Dont forget that SG admins allowed to post bundle keys here (on the forum), which is also not exactly personal use.
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Of course, the law says (or might say in the future? not sure, but it doesn't really matter right here) that you can do whatever you want with it, and nothing short of law can change that.
However, no law says whether or not SG should reward this with contributor points (even though they might be "locked", and might require other contributions to "get unlocked"), or remove them from their premises. I plan to use the report button at my discretion, but I would like an official statement saying whether or not such reports will matter (because if not, then I won't bother, naturally).
ad PS: "please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so"
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1) I assume this was done mainly as a concession/retreat/emergency solution of sorts -- not as a "bundle giveaways are not a problem at all, go ahead", but rather "support is getting overwhelmed by this problem and we cannot cope with the amount of reports coming it, so we'll at least try to (partially) solve it by reducing the contributor value and making such giveaways less appealing, in the hope that our support department will be able to take a break".
2) For an occasional odd bundle that allows this (i.e. those that are not "almost every"), if one should appear?
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Now it will be very hard to explain to SteamGifts users which bundle keys they are allowed to give away. Indie Royale keys should be all reported, the rest isn't so clear. The battle seems already lost.
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It would be nice if they would have stated them in non-legalese terms. The one that says "sharing...is not allowed" is pretty clear. As for the ones that say "for personal, non-commercial use" clearly that means you cannot sell it (commercial). But does that necessarily mean you cannot give it to a friend, or a stranger on this site? How is that commercial? If you say it's because it increases your contributor value, would that still be the case if contributor values didn't exist?
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(In that particular case, the more interesting word is probably "personal", rather than "non-commercial".)
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As far as I understand it, non-commercial is just there to clarify *personal, so that you can't make any monetary profit with the keys. So gifting is ok, trading (?) and selling, on the other hand, is not.
However, I don't have any knowledge in this area and I am not even a native speaker, so if anyone with legal information is around, let us know.
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if your only motivation to giveaway is to win free stuff, don't give away. You could easily buy something you want instead. if you were hoping to raise your contribution value cheap, you are cheating the system. Bad of you. This is SG anti cheat=)
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My only complaint would be that some games were bought and gifted from inventory that at one point in time appeared in a bundle, you lose value. Will there be a review process as its easy enough to prove if it was from inventory? Other than that, this is a good solution. Thanks for your hard work.
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This is the same issue I've been raising. Apparently everyone thinks it's too easy to fake the proof and/or it's too much work for the admins/support to do such review and verification of giveaways. But I say that if they're going to treat us as if we did something wrong when we didn't, we should have a chance to show that we didn't. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like that's the case, so I'm extremely disappointed.
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Agreed. I made giveaways of some games that were in bundles years ago, but I bought recently. All giftable from inventory. I would just like to see an option for appeal. I'd hate to see some great games no longer traded just because they were previously available years ago for very cheap.
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I have two comments for this new system:
1) to all those, telling, there should be a way to prove, you are giving a legit gift, not a bundle key, there is always a 20%+$25 gap, where you could freely give those games for a full contribution value. Are there so many users, gifting tradeable verions of the games previously in bundles (more than $25 of those) and not gifting anything else?
2) there should be some way to exclude the games from that list. So the list would never grow too large. For example make it a bundle game only for two years after the bundle. Won't you tell, I'm gifting a HIB1, in case i make a giveaway of Lungaru HD or Penumbra Overture? If a game was not in a bundle for already two years, i would say, it fully regains it's value, even if I bought it for $0,01.
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As to your point 1's "so many users", I don't know. But I know it has happened to me. I'm already maxed out and I only gave away 3 games, all tradable items of games that were in bundles. So I would say that it's not that hard to get burned by this change.
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We rolled out a few important updates to the site today.
The first major change is the way contributor values are calculated. In short, the update limits giveaways that might have originated from a bundle to 20% of your total value (Note: Giveaways created prior to a bundle always receive full value). Please review the threads from earlier in the week for the full details. Keep in mind, we'll continue to improve this system as time goes on.
There's no longer a restriction on what games can be given away, assuming they're not guest passes or beta keys. Anything found in the drop down menu when creating a giveaway is allowed. If you're gifting a game from a bundle, please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so. If you believe a giveaway needs to be removed, please use the report button. There's no reason to post accusations in the comments, and users doing so may be suspended for inappropriate behavior. We'll review reported giveaways, and remove them if necessary. The new system will ensure contributor values are not overly inflated by bundle games.
Thanks to everyone in the community for all the feedback the past week, and I believe we created a system that's fair for everyone. It still leaves room for improvement, and there are a number of great suggestions in the previous thread we'll be exploring in the coming weeks.
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