Baby I like it (the way you move on the floor). :D
Special like for controlling the bundle games values. :)
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Cool, this did seem the best of the three options. I like it.
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Wooooo! Thanks guys for making this site better and better!
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Are you sure?
"If you're gifting a game from a bundle, please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so. If you believe a giveaway needs to be removed, please use the report button."
If anything, now I'm reporting more, because people publicly go "yadda yadda this is from this and that bundle (and I mistakenly think I can give it away)", so where earlier you only used to suspect, now you can be sure.
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Well im very new here and I was showed this site by people on steamstrades and CAG. I thought what a great place. I won something I entered and I thought wow what a nice person to give something away to me. Someone within my community. I really cant believe how much people are upset about people GIVING away games. This seems like its going to prevent a lot of people from giving away more. If you guys want this site to only be about giving away something that you bought this week and have in inventory there will be 20 games being given away. Look around. 90% of the games being given out seem to be on that list. The majority of you seem to think thats a horrible thing. Whats next, you are going to frown on people that want to give away a game thats been 75% off on steam?
Im giving away 7 this week that are on that list. In fact I got them in a bundle. I didnt buy the bundle. it was given to me by someone in this community. I could haven just been greedy and kept them all. But I wanted to give back to this community. Pay it forward. So I kept one 5$ game and tried it out and ive been giving away others to people. Friends I thought. If someone wins a bundled game from me and is upset I dont know what to tell you. Im sorry I tried to give back.... If what I did this week in giving away 7 games to people in this community was wrong/abusive/or some sort of exploit then I might as well not be here.
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If thats the case I'll just close my account then. I wanted to give back to others after I won something. To a few people in the community. Pay it forward. Apparently you arent allowed to pay it forward with the same dollars you won from the lottery. I suppose I should have just entered freebie events and never given away anything. That would have been within the rules.
I suppose I broke the rules then. I'll report my own 4 giveaways that are still open to people today and take them down. Sorry to anyone that entered my giveaways today. 4 less winners today. 4 less giveaways.
I looked all over the place for rules on this site BTW. After reading this thread and before my post. I cant seem to find them anywhere.
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Rodger I'll check that out. Thanks.
For now Im going to take down my other giveaways since its a violation and just keep them.
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People give games here in hopes that someone will play and enjoy them, not so they can turn around and use that game for trade padding or extra contributor value or whatever. Nobody can stop you from trading your won games away, but don't be surprised when you get banned from SG for that sort of thing.
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I'll move along on my own. If they ban me then so be it. It doesnt matter at this point I suppose. Ive already created a ticket to cancel my giveaways still open. Dont sweat it. I wasnt padding or exploiting or whatever its called here.... I was trying to spread the wealth. I unlocked one puzzle game (the cheapest one) and played it for a few minutes. Its actually pretty good. Im putting it on my laptop. I decided to give away some of the others.
This seems like a very hostile community based on the framework and system in place. Its funny because its the exact opposite of what I thought it was when I first arrived. I cant believe im viewed this way for trying to give away things to others. Or other people for giving away bundled games. They are still giving them away. Maybe the whole system needs an overhaul if there are so many so upset by this. I thought when i came here the point was giving. Not about who is unfairly gaining an advantage on my point total...
After all. I won something form someone else and I had never contributed anything. What a cool thing I thought.
Anyway as I said I'll just move along.
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Personally I think it was a mistake to introduce contributor giveaways. The fact that gifters are now able to enter giveaways with slightly better chances has not been worth the jealousy, abuse, and negativity it has brought to the community. I recognize that you had good intentions, and it's great that you wanted to share. However, the situation is unfortunately a bit more complex than it needs to be IMO. Something like the type of regifting you tried to do can't really be taken on a case by case basis as long as there are contributor giveaways. :/
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I think it's because people who give away games to be able to enter high-contribution giveaways feel threatened by the idea of their competition entering the same giveaways, if that competition didn't have to spend as much to get to that high-contribution. But you are right, it should just be about giving away games. Unfortunately the majority will never feel that way unless contributor values are removed altogether, so people would have nothing to brag or complain about. They'd just be giving away games, for others - not for themselves.
Edit: just saw...If you did give away the games you won here though, then yea that's against the rules. I do agree with you in that it should be about giving away games and giving back, and that people shouldn't be upset about someone giving away games regardless of where they came from (but the exception being regifting games that you won on here).
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Yeah because for some reason when you pay 75% in a bundle you are a much worse person than when you pay 75% off on steam. All those people getting 105$ credit on saints row packs in "inventory as a gift" paid 13 bucks for it.... Or they traded other games/bundles for it on CAG or steamtrades....
To me its pretty silly that people feel the need to make a distinction and view people GIVING away games a "problem"
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Ive never paid 98% off for a bundle. But even if I did. Is there where we draw the line? 98% off vs 85% off? I have the batman franschise in my inventory that I bought for 85% off.....
Look around. 80-90% of the stuff being given here is a game that can be in a key form one way or another.
Im not trying to tell you how to run your community. I wouldnt. You have been here a lot longer than most im sure. I was just pointing out that after reading this thread. Me, Myself and I are viewed as a problem. Well I gave away 7 things this week. I thought I was being generous. My intentions were to brighten 7 days. The people I traded last night were very happy. I felt good that I was sharing my winnings.
If you want to remove 80% of the things being given from here thats your call as a community. It seems most of you prefer this so thats perfectly fine. Some here seem to feel like me. We will leave. THe mistakes I made are on me for not seeking out the rules I suppose. But if you ask me it appears as though 80% of the things being given away fall under that same category. Maybe thats why my rule breaking wasnt apparent to me.
Just my 2 cents.
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The line is drawn not at a discount value (games one could win during the winter sale, for example, had effectively a 100% discount), but at the Terms of Service. Most bundles are "for sales of products or product rights (collectively, "Products") to end user customers for their personal, non-commercial use". If the product does not end at the customer who uses it personally and non-commercially, then something probably went wrong, unless the terms specify some exceptions, such as gifting entire bundles.
(Please, if you want to argue, try to focus on all of the emphasized bits, not just one. We all understand that this is non-commercial, for example. It's the other bits that matter.)
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Im not looking to argue at all. I understand where you are coming from. I was just offering a point from someone on the other side of this. I came into this thread and was reading about myself as a problem. If that's the case thats fine. I cant change how everyone feels about this. You guys built this up not me. And its a cool thing. But I think its a little too serious for me when I felt like I was contributing and I find out Im the jerk everyone is upset about this.
I hope you guys figure it all out and it stays together.
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No hard feelings there. "Serious" is when people know that it's frowned upon, they know what is written in ToS, and still keep doing it, saying just "STFU, I'm giving a free game". (Yep, I could give "free games" too, just give me five minutes with piratebay or something.)
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Giving away a key you paid (hopefully a fair amount) for is worlds apart from aiding piracy, regardless of what any legally invalid ToS says. I'm not arguing against the rules (because some people don't pay a fair amount for them), I'm just saying that was a ridiculous comparison.
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(Oh, it wasn't my intention to compare all bundle splitting to piracy -- I just wanted to show how absurd it is to justify something by "I'm giving free games". Bundle splitting borders on piracy only in the cases of bundles that offer DRM-free or Desura versions alongside Steam keys.)
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Only HIB and Indie Royale doesn't allow splitting. And of the two, HIB doesn't give individual keys anyway.
Gala explicitly supports it and Groupees has supported it int he past.
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While I agree with you that actual bundle keys should not be given out if they break that bundle's ToS, it seems that much of the complaining from the community is that they see it as a way of inflating contributor value. That's why "exploited" keys from other sources are also on the list, when they don't have a ToS that forbids sharing.
It is hypocritical to punish people for giving away those "exploited" games, or legal bundle games, or even games that are not bundle games but were in one before (in other words, any game that does not have a ToS that forbids it)...and yet think that games on sale are ok (even the ones that are effectively 100% discount).
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Personally, I never had problems with any discounts, or even completely free games (such as those that people could win during the winter sales, or DOTA2 invites). Because everyone is able to do that. However, in a bundle broken to pieces, you have something that a "good guy" who honors the ToS cannot do. Giving separate bundle keys, where prohibited by ToS, is considered "unfair", because the way to get this advantage is not to buy it when it is on sale, or to be lucky, but to be a jerk who doesn't care about licence agreements.
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Agreed, I don't have a problem with discounted or free games either, but people are being punished for giving away those free games. Also people who gave away non-bundle games, that were featured in a bundle previously. Those people didn't break any bundle ToS. They are not getting full contributor value, whereas someone who buys on sale does. That's when the unfairness comes in.
But I'm not necessarily saying those people should get less contributor value. I personally would like to see the contributor value system removed. Then people wouldn't feel anger towards those who give away the free games or discounted games, because you would know they aren't doing it just to increase their contributor value, but because they truly want to give away a game.
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Split bundles used to be report-worthy even before the contributor system, and I sincerely do hope that it is still SG policy not to encourage breaking bundle TOS by giving (albeit limited) credit -- i.e., I hope that if a giveaway is reported as TOS-breaking, and then is really found to be such, it still gets removed and the gifter suspended.
I very much dislike the fact that many people took this change as a "hooray, now we can safely get some credit for any bundle keys we haven't activated, despite what any rules may say".
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Wolfpup
I couldnt agree more with you. Because these threads are filled with people comaplingin about IGn keys and other methods too. Its not about giving its about people that dont want others getting credit.
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Or maybe about "not encouraging more people to break more rules by giving them credit"?
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Its may be a policy but I dont know how you expect it to be policed. If its ok to give away a key then how can you ever enforce that. Unless someone like myself is willing to admit it.
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HIB 5 was on average ~$8.5. Let's say I paid $9 for it. Bought individually, these games cost $98. That's 90,1% off. But if I got it for $1 - the 7 games without Bastion are worth $84. That's a >98% discount.
And you skipped the part where it's against bundle ToS to give out individual bundle keys (or precise it says there are your own personal use). chuckie001 explained that much better than I could.
You gave 7 games this week by breaking the site policy. Somebody gave you 8 games, and you regifted them. And you broke the site rules, regardless if the games were bundle keys, of Valve complete pack.
Also, you don't seem to be reading what the change is. Nothing is getting removed. You only don't get the full $ credit (which shouldn't matter that much to you if you're looking to make someone happy by gifting games) on your profile if you give games that were in an indie bundle.
Look at it this way: When you buy on Steam you have these options - buy for yourself, and buy as a gift. If you use the former, it gets applied to your account and you can't give it away. If you use the latter option, it gets stored into your inventory and you can do with it whatever you please. Now imagine any indie bundle store works the same way.
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Oh Im am completely aware of what the change is. I understand that me splitting a bundle has nothing to do with these changes. In fact the new rules seem to say its ok as long as the place you got it from doesnt have an issue with splitting it. And I didnt have a problem with it really till I read the 3 threads about why people wanted it changed. The motivation behind it is whats important IMO. The motivation is greed not giving. You can slice it anyway you want but that is the vibe that I got reading the pages on both threads. If my motivation was greed I would have never openly admitted to doing the exact things people were complaining about. I would have kept quiet and kept doing what I was doing to earn more points and enter more giveaways. I was instead trying to show some people here that the message seems lost. When reading people's complaints its not about a gift at all. Its all about the points. Its no longer about making someone's day. Its about getting credit for it and its about my credit being worth more than your credit because im better than you because my gifts are better.
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Anyway I flagged all my giveaways and opened a ticket. I have a feeling if we did this to all others in the same boat there would be at least half the giveaways taken down.. But thats just my own ballpark figure on the titles I see listed.
Anyway no biggie. I wish I had a better experience here. If I was 10 years younger I wouldnt be writing any of this. I would be "exploiting the system" and getting free stuff :) I gotta say I was overwhelmed by this place when I arrived. Such a cool idea. Hope its around for a long time for you guys.
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(And for you too, no? You seem like a relatively decent fellow.)
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relatively being the key word there ;)
Nah I dont think so. I flagged 4 of my own giveaways and Im prepared to make an exit. Its all good though. Im ok with it. Stuff like this will always get too big and then have to change the rules around. Its the nature of the beast. Ive been there. Like I said I think its ridiculous that someone sees a 90% off purchase as steam worth 100% credit but someones else's contribution as less valuable.
That appears to be the overwhelming message and the reason things are changing.
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Hey bonebreak2000, the forum stirs up a lot of drama, but we do have a great group of people within the community. If you poke around a bit, and spend some time in our Steam chat, I guarantee you'll meet some new friends.
I'll try to summarize a few of the rules you were wondering about earlier, and why they exist. First off, this thread is mostly about removing restrictions, and providing users with the freedom to give away anything they have available.
Gifts you win should be redeemed on your account. This is the same reason why users are prevented from entering to win games they already own. For example, say I post a copy of Skyrim. As a giveaway creator, I'd like to see the winner excited to play the game. If the winner already owned Skyrim, and reposted the gift online '[H] Skyrim, [W] $25' that would be extremely disappointing. I'd rather not see users flocking to the site as a method of growing their bank account. At the same time, if they turn around and regift it on our site, I start to wonder why they entered in the first place. Now, you did bring up a great point. If you're entering for a bundle, maybe you're only looking to play some of the games. In that situation, it seems reasonable to play the games that caught your eye, and to regift those extras. Or you could always return those unused ones back to the creator of the giveaway.
We encourage users to follow the individual terms of service set by indie bundles. We're unable to verify where a game was purchased, and we simply don't have the resources to follow up with everyone, but we would like to see users respectful to both the creators of the various bundles and the indie developers.
That's basically it. Anything that revolves around free brings in a wide variety of people for all different reasons. We try to maintain a fair system for distributing gifts, and it is a challenge at times since everyone has different expectations. Hopefully you stick around. Join the chat one of these days and say hi.
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In that case I'll go ahead and reward those people that entered my giveaways earlier and send them the games. :) Someone posted about that gala bundled isnt against the TOS so thats fine I guess.
Thanks for the reply.
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I agree. If you put a blanket rule down, you can't give exceptions just because some members lose $2000+ in contributor value and/or are more "popular" or "well known."
What is this double standard?
Edit: LOL I see that Nuclear Dawn was removed from the bundle list, just so one specific person doesn't lose $2000 contributor value.
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Yes, Nuclear Dawn was removed from the list. To help 1 person? No, to help over 1,431 users, submitting 1,798 gifts.
Why? Let's look at the stats. Nuclear Dawn was in the Indie Royale - The New Year's Bundle, launched January 5th, 2012. Now, let's compared this to Nuclear Dawn giveaways created on our site.
http://www.steamgifts.com/game/by826/nuclear-dawn
Over 99% of the Nuclear Dawn giveaways were created long after the bundle, or before it. In fact, there's a big spike in June because the developer decided to give away a free gift to everyone that previously owned the game. In my opinion, it doesn't make sense to flag 1,798 gifts as suspicious and future ones as well, because 10 or so Nuclear Dawn giveaways were created around the time of the bundle. This is what I mean when I say we're going to tweak our list over time.
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Okay, sure. I'm not going to argue. I just wanted to say that I found it very suspicious on first glance and I'm sure others do as well.
In this case, I'm going to bet that less than 1% of giveaways for The Ship were bundle keys. The rest were inventory copies generated from, potentially, bundle keys. So 99% of The Ship giveaways are also legitimate, are they not?
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1) people who got the bundle for themselfs got an extra copy later so i would say this extra copy was still from bundle.
2) Supper fluffy kitty bought a couple hundred copies of Nuclear dawns from dewn, and the thing about those copies as i heard is that they generate additional free copy.
giving away a copy of game you got for free just becouse you bought a bundle or won a giveaway isn't abusing contribution system? really?
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No, I don't think it's abusing the system. For example, if I buy the Valve Complete Pack, you're saying I shouldn't be able to gift the extra copies I receive, because they were free? A lot of users received a free copy of Nuclear Dawn, but they received it because they previously purchased the game. Unless they buy the game again or trade for a key, they only have one. The bundle ended 6 months before the promotion. They can't simply go back and buy more Indie Royale bundles after they heard about it.
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i just looked at some people who won SFK copy of nuclear dawn and they are now giving away the extra copy they have got. not only they won a free copy but also 15$ free contribution score.
Am i the only one who think they dont deserve it?
With all the respect to you cg and Kitty i still think its crazy
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"They can't simply go back and buy more Indie Royale bundles after they heard about it."
Why dont we just remove all past games from the list. people cannot go back in time and buy more past bundles even if we now allow them to get full contribution score for it
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If you check the graph for Nuclear Dawn, you can see it was never abused during the bundle. That's not true for all games, and if we were to remove them from the list, users that abused them in the past would receive full value for everything. We've been tossing around the idea of a time limit. For example, a year after the bundle, new giveaways once again receive full value. So if a bundle went live Jan 1, 2012, we could say only giveaways between Jan 1, 2012 and Jan 1, 2013 might be reduced in value. Considering some of the early Humble Bundles date back to 2010, this might be a positive change.
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That seems reasonable. As it is now someone wanting to give away say Machinarium is penalized because of someone hypothetically buying a hundred copies years ago (how long has steamgifts even been around?) while (so far anyway) Nuclear Dawn is excepted for questionable reasons. Never mind Humble Bundle keys can't be split anyway.
edit: is there a way to get a stats page for any game? just browsing through open giveaways I found Bad Rats: http://www.steamgifts.com/game/nBqhE/bad-rats-the-rats-revenge which was in a bundle but it looks like only half the giveaways have been since then.
edit again: I realize there's no easy way to do it, even if you discount bundle keys for just a month people looking to exploit it will just wait a month. maybe a year makes that less likely.
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I have checked many graphs (not only nuclear dawn one) and more than 50% of games weren't abused during bundle sale - mostly ship and indiegala below the averege keys were submitted in large amounts.
The problem i see with nuclear dawn is that people were submitting free copies they got from buying a bundle in the past (the time when developers gave extra copies) and maybe a bit now then people are getting free extra copies after winning Super Fluffy Kitty's giveaways
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i also agree with this time limit. ive found a game that is somehow similiar to nuclear dawn.
Sol Survivor
it was in 2 bundles Wham Bam Bundle and bemine2, although you cannot see so many giveaway dated on this time (march, early april). those were given away in a bit larger amount a couple mothns after when devs decided too give 2k free keys away (less than 5% of those were given away on SG).
i Guess mods were doing a good job back then and most of the abused giveaways were removed. this means that it was very hard to abuse past bundles. I agree that the list should be looked over not just for single games but as a whole so you can distinct which gaves you can consider exploited and which not, I'm sure that the list has many many games that were less abused than nuclear dawn. and i think it's still unfair for other games that they are on the list while nuclear dawn was removed. i know its a lot of job and thinking what games should stay on it but i hope it will have more sense when the work under it is finished
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are some bundle game giveaways subject to removal?
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thanks for doing the overhaul....though some people are butthurt :T
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We really need clarification on the TOS thing though. Most people have interpreted it as meaning that all bundle games are acceptable, but reading the above it sounds like posting a key from a bundle where it's disallowed by the TOS will be penalized. Can we get solid word on that one way or the other? The updated FAQ doesn't say anything about bundles at all at the present time.
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I find it quite funny how the whole goal was to reduce abuse of the contribution system with keys. If you take a look at some of the giveaways, we clearly have people circumventing the system by using the Cthulhu Saves the World & Breath of Death VII Double Pack, Dead to Spies Gold and numerous other possibilities.
Many of these were pointed out when Support asked for corrections to their list, but for whatever reason were never included.
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The fact that they opened that thread asking for corrections really lead me to believe they planned on correcting the list before implementing it.
By delaying the corrections, all they're going to do is cause more confusion when they finally do update it and make it retroactive because contribution values will drop again for some people.
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I like this. I just started doing giveaways after being a member for a year and it's a lot of fun. I did however feel like my contribution amount was going too high from some games and I am glad (odd as it sounds) to see that I hit a cap, even though not all of my contributions have been bundle games. My opinion though, the 20% might be a bit harsh to those who actually paid the full amount, or even got it on sale for 50% off. In fact, even getting a game on sale for 75% as a daily deal or something that has been in a bundle before, are getting 5% less this way. And that's at the extreme end (75%) of most sales too.
I'd say, test this out at 20% but I think it is going to hurt contributions overall. I ask that you look into making it 25% to compensate at least for those daily deal folks who like to do giveaways, as it would be the most just way. Though compromising and adjusting it to 35% or something might keep things a bit more active. You guys have the data though, so you know best, and I trust you know what you are doing, or Steam Gifts wouldn't still be around. Thank you for this site, and for your work. I hope that this comment finds its way to you guys :)
~Scalawag
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I wanted to add too that this site helps keep things safe for those who wish to win games. The people who abuse bundles are still going to abuse bundles and those keys will still be out there. It is my hope that the Steam Gifts community can continue to be a safer place to get more games to more people. If the keys from bundle abusers aren't sent here, they'll go somewhere else, and that opens more players to abuse and scams. It's a sad reality, and as I said above, you guys have the data to make the decisions you do, but I'm confident that you guys know what you are doing.
I apologize for the wall of text/essay here, but no plan is flawless at first, and I hope I raised some valid concerns that will help to continue creating a more perfect service.
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Ah, sorry, quite late to the show here. I'm very new here, and all of my giveaways to date were from bundles. I think I get this post and I think it's right, but can someone explain one thing to me please - if I give away non-bundle games in the future and consequently rise the legitimate contributor value to some point where 20% would cover the price of bundle ones, will my bundle giveaways be revalued automatically at the full cost or will they stay at close to zero?
Also, I really, really think it should be added to the FAQ. New people could easily get confused.
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Everything is re-calculated per the formula every time you successfully give something away. It isn't that your bundles are 're-valued' it is just the inputs to the formula will change.
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Just a quick question, if my bundle value keeps increasing and my non-bundle value stays at a halt. I won't be seeing any increase in Contributor Value ( after the initial $25 ), right? Can anyone confirm this?
This is what I understood by looking at that formula.
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lol the guy is whinging about 2 cents ??
Are you crying when you see 'contributor giveaway, minimum contributor amount $34.99'? :)
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I just think people worrying about 'contributor values' is a bit of a waste of your life.
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Here's a formula for reference.
I made 2 examples - my current contributor status (note: I gave away Serious Sam 2 before it was a bundle game!) and in the second example there's 3* The Ship (could also be any other 3 bundle games @19.99):
Value.Contributor= Value.NonBundle + MIN( Value.Bundle, 25) + MIN( Value.Bundle -25, ( Value.NonBundle + MIN( Value.Bundle, 25) ) * 0.2 );
= 104.04 + 25 + MIN ( 19.88, 25.808 )
= 129.04 + MIN ( 19.88, 25.808 )
= 129.04 + 19.88
= 148.92
Value.Contributor= Value.NonBundle + MIN( Value.Bundle, 25) + MIN( Value.Bundle -25, ( Value.NonBundle + MIN( Value.Bundle, 25) ) 0.2 );
= 0 + 25 + MIN( 59.97 -25, 25 0.2 )
= 25 + MIN ( 34.97, 5 )
= 30
I adapted the format of the formula from a post by Freud but corrected some mistakes he made.
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"I adapted the format of the formula from a post by Freud but corrected some mistakes he made."
I understood Freud's take to be that the contribution total figure was derived solely from the level of a user's desire to bone his own mother?
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We rolled out a few important updates to the site today.
The first major change is the way contributor values are calculated. In short, the update limits giveaways that might have originated from a bundle to 20% of your total value (Note: Giveaways created prior to a bundle always receive full value). Please review the threads from earlier in the week for the full details. Keep in mind, we'll continue to improve this system as time goes on.
There's no longer a restriction on what games can be given away, assuming they're not guest passes or beta keys. Anything found in the drop down menu when creating a giveaway is allowed. If you're gifting a game from a bundle, please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so. If you believe a giveaway needs to be removed, please use the report button. There's no reason to post accusations in the comments, and users doing so may be suspended for inappropriate behavior. We'll review reported giveaways, and remove them if necessary. The new system will ensure contributor values are not overly inflated by bundle games.
Thanks to everyone in the community for all the feedback the past week, and I believe we created a system that's fair for everyone. It still leaves room for improvement, and there are a number of great suggestions in the previous thread we'll be exploring in the coming weeks.
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