Germany's the worst offender when it comes to censorship...even worse than Australia I'd say.
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Not necessarily as not everything is completely censored, that is not available. The bigger problem in Germany is that the state actually tries to make stuff, that is not apropriate for minors, unavailable to minors. The laws to sell adult stuff are very strict. Most developers and publishers give up on them (for example Valve doesn't even care about getting an aproved age verification system working) and so adults can't buy the stuff even though they are allowed to.
You can find a list here of major games that were confiscated in the last two decades and you will see, that it is rather short (it may be 2 or more years old, but you get the point). It also has to be noted that even confiscations become time-barred and (most) confiscated products can still be referenced, when used in a Zeitgeist context. Other popularly "banned in Germany" titles are usually only marked as strictly for adults.
In most cases the publishers just want to sell their goods to a larger audience and that's why they censor themselves in Germany. It is roughly comparable to a Hollywood movie that targets a PG-13 theatrical release instead of R, because the production company wants a larger audience (=more money).
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Some publishers censor their own games to get better rating, the same is going on with the US rating, we're just not talking about it. Nobody in the US likes beeing rated AO so they try to match it best. I doubt that only 26 games are only for adults, funny enough some of them are even available uncut in Germany. Even more funny: A while ago I read about it and laughed, because Valve banned that game from Greenlight.
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When a movie hits the US theaters as PG-13 although the director wanted to make it R rated, then you wouldn't consider it as censored by the US, but by the industry itself to gain more money. That is basically what is happening in Germany, since almost every foreign company prefers to sell MORE games than uncut games. You CAN legally sell and buy games that are indexed as "harmful to minors" here (it is just very complicated) - but they have to be released in Germany.
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well seen as any kid with a job can spend every penny of it on games, im in my 30's and very little of my income goes on games, when i was 16 living at my parents home still i paid a little money in board and the rest went on crap like games
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explain this please. http://forums.cncnz.com/topic/12456-generals-a-look-at-the-censorship-in-germany/
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In that case it's about the Swatiska, and that's pretty much history-related when it comes to Germany.
Restricted violence is to protect minors (however nude scenes or "implied" sex scenes like in GTA are somewhat ok).
Most censored games could be sold in Germany, if the seller does a valid age verification to make sure he's not selling to minors - and Valve is just too lazy when it comes to that.
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(The absence of) Censorship should, however, have a higher rank than "protecting minors" from all the oh so violent and evil media. (Watch the German TV channel RTL for one hour straight - and I'll guarantee you, you'll feel your brain vanishing..)
IMHO: GG > JuSchG > AGB => I, an adult, should be able to play NON-censored games.
This is a) logic and b) LAW.
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well, you are able to purchase and play them (except for games on the index), however the seller is still not allowed by law to sell certain games w/o doing an age verification first.
I've had already contacted both Valve and the Bundesprüfstelle about this in the past.
Valve claims they aren't allowed to sell uncensored games in Germany and the Bundesprüfstelle claims Valve would be allowed to sell uncensored games if they would implement some sort of age verification.
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Index my ass :P
GG Art 5. /thread :P
Yes, I see how it's about publisher vs law - but why would/should Valve bother, for instance... they're making money anyway. It's just a shame that in a country, where "there shall not be censorship" I can't legally buy a NORMAL copy of something in a store. That's fucking illegal.
Sure, age verification makes sense and is justified. But just CUTTING shit is bad..
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Being pretty much semi ... I reckon NO, we all feel the same way about nudity.
I guess, genetics and instincts matter a whole lot more than your environment and education, when it comes to violence, nudity and all alike.
Unless, of course, you're indoctrinated by some wacky "religion".
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http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm#5 (English version :P)
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It's even worse when you consider the origin of swastika.
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I don't understand, why'd they censor Nazi symbols ? Do they deny it or think people will turn into Nazi's if they see the symbol or what ?
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They're probably hoping everyone will forget what happened by not bringing up the topic. You laugh, but it works. Just try to ask any American what the trail of tears was all about. Most will be lucky to have read a paragraph on the subject.
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Erm, nope, just nope...
Nobody here is hoping that anyone will forget the horrors of the holocaust and stuff... in fact I´d say, when it comes to dealing with the "not so beautiful" parts of a nations history, Germany is maybe the only country in the world that does a decent job.
The topic is brought up daily, on many many different media types... Every kid is taught what happened,and that it may not be their fault (as they weren´t born), but that it is their responsibility not to let it happen again. Srsly, the whole subject is very present. Nothing like the trail of tears at all. :)
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Because, let's face it, Nazi's are used all the time as the "cool bad guys" in popular media such as games and films. Especially with their advanced scientific knowledge, magic occult powers and so on giving them the ability to make super zombie wizard death robots.
Germany isn't down with that crap.
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It is just about stuff that is glorifying the regime, being used as sedition or to reestablish their ideology. Indiana Jones is no problem and even the movie Iron Sky is available to minors aged 12+. In games it is a bit more difficult, because of their immersion. They can easily tend to have some exaltation in them (even when not intended).
Also very few games get "banned". They are just not accessible to minors and similar to R-rated Hollywood movies the production companies have to decide, how much money they want to make with a title. In the end the censoring is done by the company and not the state. They don't release the title uncut here, as they are too afraid it could sell badly.
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I didn't say they are bullshit. In fact I think in many cases the rating is okay. The law around these ratings just makes it difficult: For example you have to pay additional 5€ if you order adult stuff from amazon. When it arrives the postman only gives it to you (not anybody else in the house or a relative) and requires to check your ID card. Most stores don't offer a solution for indexed games and so publishers really have to consider how to make more money.
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We talk about the trail of tears all the time. We study it. Accepting our past is better than trying to cover it up.
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as to answer your question:
No we don´t think that someone will turn nazi if he sees it...
But imagine you or someone in your family was systematically hunted down by the nazis, would you like to see their symbols ever again? Many people (jews, communists, intellectuals, gypsies, and so on) lived in constant fear of those symbols. So it´s forbidden to display them, respecting those people´s feelings.
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I understand your point, but I don't understand the minimalization it into video games.They want to delete Nazi's from everything, like they'd even delete them from history if they could.
And still the game's name stays the same, Nazi Zombie Army.Yet you see no Nazi's.Weird.
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The betrayal of the German people by the Nazi party was so monumental, so tragic, and so devastating that they remain sensitive about it to this day. Native Americans probably feel the same way about depictions of "Indian fighters." Just look at the controversy surrounding the name and logo of the Washington Redskins (an American football team).
Unfortunately, most Americans remain woefully ignorant about a great many things, both inside and outside their country, perpetuating the "boorish and uncouth" American stereotype.
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Agreed. Can't say anything about Nazis and Germany, but I do know that many Native Americans loathe the whole "red savage" and "noble warrior" stereotype. We're not all mystical fucking warriors that sneak around scalping people, stealing their horses and womenfolk. lol
I think most folks are tired of being stereotyped like that. Especially in cases when said stereotypes can be harmful to marginalized groups, such as when it perpetuates racist ideas.
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The only "Native Americans" getting into an uproar about football teams, are those paid off by the victimhood industry or however you want to call it. If it was such a big issue, it wouldn't die down so quickly and only when something is convenient enough to force a discussion. Liberals are so hard up for the attention, they even buy people masquerading as them in their latest attempt. The American Indians are overwhelmingly ok with the cultural influence they have in that enterprise.
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My apologies for not being clear in my previous post. The "Indian fighters/red savage" thing is entirely separate and distinct from the Redskins brouhaha. My understanding is that it is mostly the politically-correct white people involved in the latter.
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It is a general problem. Showing signs and symbols of unconstitutional organisations is chargeable unless it is in historical context or used for the Zeitgeist. A game about Zombies wearing such a symbol (which is used by many unconstitutional organisations for obvious reasons) however is arguably not historical. That is why there is no problem with the Indiana Jones movies: Although they are fantasy to some extent, they try to be historical and non-exalting.
However these are old reasons. I'm not sure if the use in context to WW2 or the regime are still such a big problem (as long as it is not glorified and you can't play on the German side). The movie Iron Sky for example is allowed for audiences aged 12+. As stated in my comment above, this censorship is done by the publisher - not by the country.
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Team Fortress 2 Uncut
Team Fortress 2 Cut (Yep, that's toys and gears flying around after a kill.)
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germans had games like doom and quake on the banned list for YEARS!
it's insane
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One version of Doom contains secret Wolfenstein levels. They also used the svastika for level-design and yes, it wasn't just random, id software even said in an interview they wanted "bad symbols" for a "bad place". It was just a very stupid gamedesign decision.
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Steam does not support an approved age verification system, which would be required for indexed games. In contrast to Steam you can buy indexed games on Amazon, as they support Post-Ident. You can enter this steamgroup, if you want Valve to add an age verification system.
But even if Steam had such thing: They won't sell a game, if the publisher does not want to release it in Germany.
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Those keystores might get problems, if somebody sues them. Most of them aren't located in Germany though and don't mind legal issues with Germany. Valve isn't located in Germany, too, but they mind legal issues.
Valve is only a reseller for these games. If a publisher doesn't want a title to be released in Germany, Valve doesn't sell it in Germany. And there may be many reasons, why a publisher doesn't want a title to be distributed in a certain country. There is for example a legal issue with the copyrights of the German soccer league so that FootballManager isn't available here.
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I have talked to a German that said they consider that a shameful time in their history and they do their best to rid themselves of anything Nazi.
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It's not about getting rid of the history, though. Just watch German TV and you will find at any time of the day a channel that broadcasts documentarys about WW2.
It is more the concern about incitement of the people. MANY unconstitutional organisations use the old symbolism etc for their hatespeeches and they glorify them. This is worrying. I'm not sure how to explain it to persons, that don't live here.
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"It is more the concern about incitement of the people. MANY unconstitutional organisations use the old symbolism etc for their hatespeeches and they glorify them. This is worrying. I'm not sure how to explain it to persons, that don't live here."
This last sentence sums it up everything pretty well. It's not about forgetting the matter, it's about preventing something similar to happen again.
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You're absolutely right about the first part.
I have to say, regarding the second part,... that's pretty much censorship.
As "legal" as it can get. "Discussion about what should stay in a game, untouched, unedited" - that's censorship and therefore illegal.
Make age verifications/regulations - sure, that'll work. But not making it available to the public, as long as it doesn't violate anyone's rights, is illegal.
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that's censorship and therefore illegal.
How many countries that use censorship, have a law against it?
Censorship isn't illegal, in fact, most countries use some form of censorship. Even judges can tell you to not publicly say something.
In the United States for example you are not allowed to disclose the name of a secret agent if I'm correct. Other countries have regulations about privacy of royalty's. Spreading hatred is also not allowed in a lot of countries (which is also a form a censorship). So is watching child pornography.
There will be plenty more to add to this probably, but you will have to search for that yourself if you so desite to get a cmplete list.
So to state that censorship is illegal, is a bit off IMO.
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I guess, the constitution isn't clear enough, then?
http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/GG.htm#5
Of course it's illegal in Germany.
In history's course, we learned that people should be able to say and write about everything they want (and sometimes have) to.
What you're referring to is actually included, too. Of course you can't just walk around and violating people's rights. (Unless you violate someone's privacy, physical or psychological constitution, you can publish whatever you want. - Not being able to buy an uncut game IS per definition censorship.
A WORKING age verification system - that's what the industry needs.
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What is (il)legal still depends on the country you live in. In some countries alcohol is illegal even though you are 18.
Discussions only help to identify, why a certain product gets a higher rating. It is the publisher who decides which rating he wants to target. Similar to a Hollywood-blockbuster, where the studio decides to cut out violence to target a larger audience.
I'm not very happy that it is so difficult for an adult to get adults-only stuff, but in most cases the censorship comes from the industry. There still IS state-driven censorship however, but it refers to VERY few titles, that got confiscated (like Wolfenstein3D - although it is now lapsed).
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I've read somewhere on this thread that Valve vs. Bundesprüfstelle is simply a matter of confusion. Legally, Valve could easily deliver uncut games, even in Germany. (I believe it was Dopefish who posted this.)
Btw. ALL arguments FOR censorship are only there because of "child protection", "hate speech", "security" or "privacy". While I understand the logic behind all of them, I don't understand the ranking of German laws, regarding them.
It says clearly in the constitution that there shall not be censorship. Period.
The laws for child protection are another thing. The only thing necessary for this are responsible parents and working age verification systems. It doesn't take ALL adults to buy censored games for that. Period.
Hate speech and security... well.. NSA, much?
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Germany doesn't censor anything for childprotection (in the sense of changing it or banning it). They just make it difficult to sell, if something is considered harmful to minors. As I said in another post, you can buy indexed (harmful to minors) stuff on Amazon.
Those (very few) confiscated items (I've posted a list somewhere above) have other reasons than childprotection and unconstitutional organisations. It's mostly the "dignity of man" which is the absolute highest "ranked" thing in German law and the very first article in the German Constitution: "The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all public authority."
In contrast to public belief it isn't that easy to produce something utterly inhuman to get confiscated.
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Well, you know...Germany is the country that actually tried out the whole Nazi thing, so you can see how they'd bee a little gunshy about it. It's not just Nazism either, but even nationalism and militarism that led to the rise of Nazism is frowned upon. Heard a story about the band Rammstein, how they were condemned for their "Links" song. The main refrain is a German marching order, kind of like "Left, right, left, right", and censors were like "That sounds like something an army would do OH DEAR GOD NO!"
Basically, Germany pulls the Godwin argument on everything. I'm not even sure you could condemn or judge them for it, I think it's just one of those things that they gotta figure out themselves.
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Actually, Lindemann (lead singer and song writer) wanted to make a statement about Rammstein's political orientation (because there were speculations about them being "right").
"They want my heart at the right spot
[...]There it strikes to the left" - if anything, this song is to remind people that it needs an army to overthrow evil.
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I wouldn't really call it censorship exactly? Although I guess technically thats what it is but as far as I know which unfortunately isn't much, showing the nazi symbol or swastika is illegal in Germany I think, hence why it would be removed. A quote is found on the wiki page stating:
The law prohibits the distribution or public use of symbols of unconstitutional groups, in particular, flags, insignia, uniforms, slogans and forms of greeting.
Wiki
This I think specifically effects the Swastika
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I suppose the thought behind the censoring of nazi symbols in games is this: People shouldn't have fun while seeing swastikas or other nazi stuff, they should feel guilt and shame forever, just because 80 years ago people were collectively brainwashed.
Now, in my opinion that is not precisely the best way to deal with the situation, but it is understandable.
BTW the censoring that still annoys me most is the one done in the german versions of the Hearts of Iron series (for those who don't know, it's a WWII grand strategy game), where the names of all major nazi ministers were changed into some parody (e.g. Albert Hiller). Luckily enough, the steam version is international, and I can kind of see the reason behind that, but those people who play as Germany because they want a Nazi Empire will find ways to change the names (and the flags) very easily, and those who just want to play a game will be (in my case, at least) annoyed because it just takes away from the atmosphere and immersion of the game.
Just my thoughts anyway
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What about Turkey? Our internet has cencorship anymore. Many people can^t access to YouTube!
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That is NOT censorship since the German constitution doesn't allow that. All they do is "ask" the developers to "alleviate" their games and if they don't comply then they cannot sell their games. So basically the devs cut their own titles and have a governmental institution check them and see if everything is according to the rules. So technically, the government doesn't censor anything because otherwise they would break the law.
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This is not completely correct. They don't "ask" anybody to alleviate their games and you can still sell games that are rated/indexed. If it gets indexed you however cannot advertise it to minors, which makes it very complicated for the resellers. It is easier to cut things out especially since it makes it available to a much larger audience.
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For Germany
For the rest of the world
German version: Sniper Elite: Zombie Army 2
Non-German version: Sniper Elite: Nazi Zombie Army 2
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