my machine can't be upgraded (at least I think it can't) and their are programs i need to use that i'm unsure will still work with Windows 10
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I have never encountered issues. There is compatibility mode and plenty of people who make unofficial patches and workarounds. I have yet to find anything that will not work on windows 10 or 11. I have also never heard of a computer that could not have OS updated.
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Then run 10 on PC from 2010-th which does not have chipset/LAN/USB3/SATA drivers for 10/11.
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This sounds like a you problem and another case of cutting off your own nose to spite your face. I'm failing to see why you would run computer components that are so dated and apparently have no support if it is causing problems. My computer components are about 5 years old here but I've not had any issue. I know if something does come up I will dig in the couch for spare change and find some cheap solution. Besides have you even tried? Something tells me you haven't even tried. Windows will install latest drivers even if they are from 10 years ago.
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You don't need drivers specific for Win 10/11. The Windows driver model hasn't changed, I still haven't found a Win 7 driver that doesn't work on Win 10. Until not much ago I had a Core 2 Duo running Win 10.
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10 years old laptop, not having Win 10 drivers for switchable GPU means gg for me.
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Can u please write full model name. I'd like to review this issue. I remember upgrading win7 to win10 on Samsung laptop and there was problem with gpu radion drivers.
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Lenovo G500, Radeon HD 8750M + Intel HD 4000 Graphics. In Windows 10 theres a lot of issues with AMD drivers which doesnt work properly (Error 43) and also what I`ve heard of but not really dive into is Dolby Sound driver problems.
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Totaly agree. AMD brings a lot of driver problems. As i recall u need to install modded Catalyst drivers. But sometimes it didnt work as it should
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Yeah, Catalyst is deprecated (totally different company now) so is nearly impossible (I guess) to transfer that on Win 10 and make it work properly.
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Its not really AMD problem, is Lenovo bad customer support who didnt wrote proper drivers for Win 10 (year 2015) for laptop manufactured in 2012-2013.
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modded drivers for obsolete amd videocards still exist. So I'm 90% sure that u can use win10 with modded drivers
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Yeah, I'll do that, if most of my software will stop working properly. For now I'm good as it is.
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till ~2022 I was running W10 on core 2 duo system, so it was even pre 2010s and I had no major issues...
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Many people still use Windows Media Center on Win7 which support CableCards in order to record DRM protected content from cable TV services. This is simply not available for the latest versions of Win10 or Win11.
Not everyone wants/needs the latest and "greatest" stuff.
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Well it sounds like you have made your choice then and recording video is more important than gaming. So I am not sure what else to say. Cheers.
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It's not just recording it, it is also just watching it live, and perhaps watching hundreds of hours of previously recorded programs.
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Maybe it's not my place to say, but I think there are ways to make Windows Media Center work on Windows 10?
https://www.elevenforum.com/t/using-windows-media-center-in-windows-11-yes-you-can.3168/
https://www.wikihow.com/Install-Windows-Media-Center-in-Windows-10
Not that I want you to upgrade ( and I struggled with this for years too), but the other day when I got my new pc, I noticed that companies were phasing out old software that I had on my old pc. An opportunity cost is there for you because so many are slowly dropping support (which honestly, I hate too) Another comment saying the same thing
Good luck though, with whatever you decide on!
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Yes, some people have hacked WMC to work on Windows 10 and Windows 11, but unfortunately not for DRM recordings from a CableCard.
There are some early versions of Win10 that it works on, but at some point they changed the way the OS handles DRM (Playready) and it stopped working. This means that you can't view or record copy-once protected channels from a CableCard device, which on many cable systems can mean anything from being unable to record/watch premium channels (HBO, Showtime, etc.) to being unable to record/watch any channel.
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Unless your laptop doesn't have SSD, there is no reason you cannot upgrade to Windows 10. Also changing HDD with an SSD is quite easy on many laptops.
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i never had or heard any tool that wasnt able to run on win10.. EXCEPT some old dos games maybe....but thERE you can emulate easily.
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Windows 11 is the one with the TPM restrictions, pretty much anything can run Windows 10. Or you could Linux I guess.
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I think it depends on specifications. if this is a computer within Win10 requirements, I'd try upgrading it (and then running the accounting program in compatibility mode). From my experience, most compatibility issues happens when new OS meets an old peripheral device or an old program meets new generation of processors
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I upgraded my 11 year old laptop from Windows 7 to Windows 10 and it was fine, how antique is your machine for you to be unable to upgrade?
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I'm using win10 for a long time (probably switched about a year after release), and most programs I've seen worked just fine. Only if you have something very system-deep, like firewalls, it may cause issues. Of course it's all is about win10 (honestly, win11 is shit, and I hope to ignore it altogether, hoping that win12 will be better).
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I don't particularly like either Win10 or 11. Making the change may enable me to run Steam for a little bit longer but my overall experience will be downgraded.
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I'm a Windows 10 user currently, so I don't have an answer. But out of curiosity, what is the main reason stopping you from switching to a newer version of Windows?
This is a genuine question, and I'm not judging anyone I respect that not everyone may want to switch. The two main reasons I can come up with would be:
- Old hardware (Doesn't support/ runs poorly with newer Windows)
- Baked-in Telemetry and Ads (More data collected by the OS on the user)
Are there any other reasons?
It is obviously up the the user on the trade-offs. For me, my computer runs Windows 10 just fine, and I find myself relying on services such as WSL a lot. As for telemetry, I'm sure they MS is collecting a lot of data, and it is concerning, but I also don't have all my eggs in one basket in that regard.
edit: Started writing my comment before any other posts, so didn't see the reply above yet. So I guess it is just hardware compatibility then?
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the accounting software i use doesn't have a more up to date version and i get everything I need from the version I have - plus i kida only really play a few games my main game being reverse 1999 which isn't on Steam
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I would suggest making use of google to see if anyone has had issues and if they found ways for these to work with windows 10/11 before making a final decision. I mean I have run games that are not on steam from way back using DOSbox which is super easy to configure. I'm telling you and not in a spiteful way that you are cutting off your nose to spite your face. Just think about it some more.
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an accounting software that doesnt run on newer windows? why the hell would you even use an outdated version for accounting, who does that....
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yeah small businesses in rural areas with a cash register out of the 60s
i am talking about modern businesses with a certain size, in the sectors in know the software is always up to date, it has to be...
and using an outdated software to do your accounting is more than just unexplainable with the constant changes you need to be up to date
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i am talking about modern businesses with a certain size
Pretty much every business of a certain size certifies its software and then sticks with it until there's a business case to change it. The only real exception is software as a service stuff but even then support for old versions can go for years, if not decades.
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Ah, you'd be surprised how many urban ATM's are still running XP in some form. Not to mention specialized CNC machines, medical equipment and a shitton of other things that you'd bet your life run latest and greatest... but nope, they run what is compatible and proven to be stable.
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As veterinarian I can say thing or two about medical equipment. Imagine ultra expensive stuff like rtg or rm or even cheaper like usg.
And imagine that producer stopped releasing drivers for that thing.
You have spare tens or hundreds of dollars because you should update your windows? Or will you use old drivers on old PC with Windows XP and would avoid throwing out otherwise fully operational equipment?
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Louis Rossmann will explain it better than me
One of the things I learned during my time at Avatar Studios back in 2007 and 2008, as well as my experience in various smaller studios across New York City in 2008 and 2009, is that many producers often use outdated software.
There are some exceptional producers I've encountered who swear by old versions of software. For instance, I know individuals who, even in 2010, were still using Logic when it was owned by Emagic, not Apple. Today, there are still people using Logic Pro 7 on a Power Mac G5 from 2005. The reason behind this is that these individuals get into a creative zone, and having everything set up exactly the way they like is crucial to their workflow.
Some of these seasoned producers resist changing or upgrading their software because it could interrupt their creative process. They have meticulously set up their creative environment, knowing where everything is and how everything will sound. This commitment to a specific workflow is a key element of their creative success. Some even maintain multiple clones of their hard drive and have backup Power Mac G5s ready in case one fails.
These individuals are not random, talentless hacks; many of them have achieved multi-platinum records. I still know a person who worked on 50 Cent's 'Magic Stick' using a computer that was 15 years old with software that was over 10 years old. It worked for him, and there was no reason to change something that was effective. They have all the sounds and settings they need, and the idea of upgrading holds nothing to gain but everything to lose.
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Notice that OP did not list the option of "Continue to use Windows 7". That sounds like they aren't happy being stuck with whatever versions of software they have, and perhaps even feel entitled to Steam client/game updates while still using an OS or hardware that's no longer supported. Ie. that they do in fact see some value in upgrading. So the Rossmann quote isn't really applicable here. Expecting indefinite updates for EOL'd systems is not a realistic expectation.
If using 20 year old hardware or 30 year old software works for you, more power to you. But if you choose to do that, you don't also get to complain that you no longer get updates, or that some other product isn't compatible with your system any more, or that your system is insecure and gets hacked. That's simply the reality of modern gaming and being on the internet. You're not guaranteed to get updates; or that online connectivity will work with your outdated versions; and in fact it would be reckless to connect your machine to the internet at all. And your computer doesn't exist in a bubble, it becomes a threat to every one else on the internet, like becoming part of a botnet.
So sure, if Windows 7 is more important to you than having a modern or secure system, and you don't need fixes or updates to any of your software, and you don't play online or connect to the internet, then by all means keep using it! Valve aren't stopping you.You just won't get updates any more. If "the idea of upgrading holds nothing to gain but everything to lose" for you, this news doesn't impact you. It seems more like these people want to have their cake and eat it to. They want the benefit of forever updates to Steam, but without updating their OS or hardware (which it seems is more to do with other compatibility and budget issues, than anything to do with "maintaining workflow").
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My first though was: you must be working in Romania :)) Lots of companias and institutions over here are running on outdated software.
But if you are using this accounting software mostly for personal use, then I get it.
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If your software doesn't require internet access, you could install Win7 in a VM to run your software and keep it safe(r) from being compromised that way. We did that at work with a bunch of old terrible HVAC software that can't run on anything newer than XP.
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There are games which don't run past Windows 7. Windows 10 also doesn't have support for drm used with some cd games, so that's something that can be a problem for people who like old games they don't want to buy again (or aren't even available digitally).
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No time to do that (not all reinstall OS every month) and no reason to do that - because all other works fine.)
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No time to do what? Why would you need to reinstall your OS every month?
The whole reason this conversation has started is because Steam no longer works fine on older windows versions.
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Built this pc for someone recently and after I installed windows for them and they took it home they wanted to install mint for dual boot. Whatever they did, however it's possible, they ended up having to format two drives multiple times and purchase additional flash usb's to find one that mint actually would not crash half way through the installation. They eventually got it though so it's something.
Can't confirm as I don't use linux but this is pretty much why I don't use it. Always seems to have too many obstacles. Linux is good for servers but I've never heard anyone tell me how flawlessly their linux install went.
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They were doing something wrong, maybe they downloaded a third-party build with viruses, or just a broken one... Nowadays, installing modern Linux distributions is much faster and easier than installing Windows. Even a grandmother can do it.
For Nvidia users and gamers alike, I would recommend Pop OS / Garuda Linux
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About 10 years ago, I remember that I couldn't use Ubuntu on a regular basis, something was always breaking or it was difficult to do simple things. Now I have been using only Linux for 3+ years, and I haven't had a single problem, reinstallation, etc. Everything worked out of the box.
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This is true, but most people aren't willing to switch and spend another 10 years(or 7 years) to learn an os. Even then, there's a ton of games and apps they might've been using that don't work on linux(although I hear that linux is doing better due to steam deck but I'm wondering if this will hold up in the coming years when the steam deck doesn't have hardware as powerful, unless of course they release new better versions), although they could get used to that eventually. Running dual boot would also be pointless because in that case why not just run windows, you know what I mean?
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Maybe or rather definitely they were doing something wrong, but I'd say a grandma doesn't know what the nvidia or the amd is and which political party they belong to, so I'm sticking with her probably going for the os that works out of the box and doesn't confuse her, rather than her having to find an os toat is compatible with whatever might be in that tin box under her monitor and her manually having to go find the right driver versions for all her things.
Linux is for techies or people who have a lot of free time to constantly tinker with these things. Windows just works, although granted for that it uses more resources to make sure everything's compatible and running right and it keeps itself up to date. It's a trade off but casuals will prefer the easier option, hence why for instance iphones are so popular, because they're afraid of the old android os.
For reference I think the first mistake they did was not format the drive to ext4, then the flash drive they had was not meant to be formatted to ext4 and then they had some new 4tb nvme drive they had to return because that's where they wanted linux on and it wasn't compatible with linux from at least what the person was able to find as it wasn't meant to be formatted for ext4 either. Also to create the bootable media they had to use another separate app called etcher(which btw isn't listed on the downloads page of he mint website, only in the bootable section, so if you think you know how to make a bootable media disk because you've done so for years it's irrelevant because you need to use etcher for mint, which they wont tell you on the downloads page), as the windows bootable media disk wouldn't work with it.
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Perhaps it's a regional peculiarity, but in Ukraine, almost all government agencies, banks, and enterprises run on Linux. Wherever I go, elderly women use ubuntu or mint in accounting)
But yes, of course, I understand that people don't want to try something new that they're not used to when preinstall Windows everywhere.
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there is always a third option if you really want to stick to windows 7: dual boot linux on your pc :)
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I'll find out on monday if disabling client updates a while ago did the trick, though I might've done it too late. seeing as valve is a bunch of lazy fucks, like most devs (and people in general), and even the red countdown on top doesn't update unless the client is restarted, it can go either way. I haven't played anything in 3 months, so it's not an immediate issue anyway.
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Well, i don't know what to do if you have a laptop, but this is what I did on my PC in October,
I bought new ssd drive and installed win10 on it (with all other drives unpplugged to not mess anything) and now i have Win7 and Win10 on separate drives. Win10 starts by default but you can just hit one button and choose win7 instead.
Why this way? I was afraid that my drawing tablet and steering wheel drivers won't work on win10 (it's ancient stuff) and I wanted easy way back.
But everything worked perfectly and after some back and forth to fine-tune some application to work like I was used to, i didn't get back to Win7 since.
I still have it as a backup, but Win10 is fine. It doesn't receive new updates and you can disable almost all annoying things. If you use local account you won't have any unwanted episodes from MS.
And if you are not playing that much anyway, you don't really have to register win10, you will have that text on the bottom right corner "activate windows", but that's it.
Using Win7 is more and more inconvenient. Not because of security, but because almost every program, one by one stops supporting it: You have to stick to older versions or search for community workarounds: Firefox, Steam, Uplay, Blender, Adobe Suite, OBS, Unreal Engine, Rockstar Launcher, etc,
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I just bit the bullet and finally bought a new laptop. I've been using Win 8.1, and I had nothing to complain about. Now that I have a new one with Win 11, I don't know anymore why I refused to upgrade before. It's pretty decent. And I can finally play new games with high frame rates xD
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I was on Windows 7 until November last year, I was practically forced to upgrade because of new hardware. New Intel and AMD CPUs don't have support for Win7 anymore, and even if you manage to get it installed with 3rd party drivers, there may be issues. I already tried using Win7 with a Ryzen 5600X a couple of years ago and I needed a 3rd party driver to get USB working, made by some Chinese dude. It worked but the PC would crash occasionally because the drivers weren't stable. I can only assume that with Ryzen 7 or Intel 13/14th gen there's a lot more work involved in making stable drivers for outdated OSes.
I really didn't want to "upgrade" to Win10 because there are so many things in it that I don't like. Cortana, the utter shit search, optional ads that you have to disable, Candy Crush that gets pre-installed with some updates, etc.
I managed to get a hold of Win10 LTCS which has none of these issues. It does need to be updated, but it can be done once every few months and with the user's permission, not whenever Microsoft demands it. It's as close to Win7 functionality-wise as you can get, I think. The Microsoft Store can be installed separately if you want to use Game Pass, as well as Windows media components if you want to watch videos without something like MPC or VLC.
After a bit of tweaking and installing Open Shell and WinAero Tweaker, it's very similar to Windows 7. The only disadvantage as far as I can tell is that I couldn't quite replicate my custom Windows 7 theme.
Gaming compatibility has been the same as on Win7. I'm able to play some really old games just as well (eg. Pizza Syndicate), everything that worked on 7 seems to work on 10 for me.
Under the hood, Vista, 7, 8, 8.1, 10, and 11 are very similar. 11 is way more similar to Vista than Vista is to XP. If a software works on 7 but is known to not work on 10, it hasn't been properly maintained for at least a decade and was probably never that well written. It may be worth to look for a replacement if you need its functionality. Or, you can run a virtual machine with no internet access. A better idea than staying on 7 and using it as if nothing is wrong.
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Don't have money to upgrade my machine and my PC doesn't let me even try to upgrade with Windows' auto installer. I also don't have a SSD.
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I've been mulling over it. I have some friends that use Linux already and seems like I'll have to make that jump.
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Your friends can help you then. It would be a much easier transition than on your own that way. Good luck!
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So try some Linux distro like EndeavourOS, Garuda or Nobara. There may be a problem with working of online games, but most offline games should be working and some may require additional tinkering described usually at protondb site.
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Even though EndeavourOS is my favourite and what I'm currently using, I wouldn't suggest Arch-based distros to people who never used Linux before. Once they learned Linux, it's really a good choice though.
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got a steam deck. my windows 7 pc can run far better and with much higher quality. all my win 7 pc parts are 9+ years old sooo... steam deck was a massive disappointment. i never really touch the deck unless going places
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What is it that you don't like about your Steam Deck? I had to add an SSD to the version I bought, but other than that I like mine.
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overheats even when on 20 fps with high end games. deck has them on lowest settings most of the time. honestly... my wii U plays some of the exact same games better. Lego City Undercover.
decent bit of games like Hogwarts legacy you cant play offline on it...
you need to start the games well online and after you can go offline
ran into a few games like this on deck
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That's a shame. Sorry to hear that. I play mostly indie stuff but the triple-A stuff that I have played on it, RE Village most recently, have run decently. I also played Gotham Knights with medium to high settings and got a decent frame rate if I remember correctly. Sorry to hear that the games you've wanted to play haven't fared as well.
I might be picking up Mass Effect Legendary on the Winter Sale since it's only 6 bucks and I expect to be able to max out the settings for it. Still even if I can't, I really couldn't expect the Deck to do much more than it does for the price. Wish it was more to your liking.
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^^ Gotham Knights ran ok. but it ate battery life like crazy and kicked out heat. didnt want to put my deck back in its case when finished playing in the car because how hot it got. found the game runs better/not as hot when hooked up to a tv and playing with Bluetooth xbox one controller. most steam deck games were like that. wish you could turn off the touch screen cause i think thats whats doing it. always checking the entire screen to see if its being touched
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I just started playing mine on a TV. I just got the TV actually and was used to doing everything on my computer. I don't have an official dock for the Deck, I just happened to have two different USB-C dongles that I was using on my laptop, which has only USB-C ports on it, and they both work with the Deck. Even the old Power A controller I had, which had other compatibility issues in the past, worked great with no issues so far. I don't always have a lot of disposable cash so the fact that all these little things have just happened to fall into place for me have helped to form a much more enjoyable experience with the Steam Deck overall. I do regret having bought a 256 GB SD card before buying the 512 card I use now and before installing the 1 TB SSD, but that just comes down to my impatience and me trying to cheap out and going with what I could afford at the time instead of waiting to buy what I really needed/wanted to buy.
As for your touch screen issue, maybe submit that suggestion on the message boards. It seems like something they'd be able to put in to an options screen.
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^^^7$ dongle and my tvs hdmi cable.
got the steam deck dock at first and refunded that worthless piece of junk
cable is weird so you cant plug it in if you have a case on the deck
nothing bad about it, but its not worth over 15$
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Windows 7 wasn't perfect, but when 10 first launched, it was quite bad. Poor driver support, a lot of crashes, and worst of all, it was just needlessly different, and things that were simple to do on 7 were a chore on 10.
Driver support is now much improved, as is stability, and I have gotten used to using 10, so switched over some time ago.
Way back when CPU processing power was a more precious resource, I didn't see the point of using Steam. Using a launcher, to launch a launcher, to then launch a game? Why not just start the game directly? So I prefered DRM free where possible.
TLDR: If 7 did everything I wanted, I'd keep using it. Since I am currently using 10, I will keep using that.
So far I have no reason to "upgrade" to 11 to get those rounded corners.
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So far I have no reason to "upgrade" to 11 to get those rounded corners.
To be fair there's always programs/apps to get as close to the 10 look as possible including removing those rounded corners.
I get what you mean tho and I eventually did the jump to 11 after months/years cause of similar reasons. Finally 11 seems stable enough and didn't lose performance on programs and games while actually gaining on some.
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A bit surprised that, as far as reasons for not upgrading go, nobody yet has mentioned that with every version, Windows turns more and more into a spyware.
Saw a video once with someone comparing the network traffic of Windows XP and Windows 10 using Wireshark (I think it was those versions, but I might be off by one), it's quite baffling.
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You mentioned spyware, then I will add bloatware.
It takes so much space and takes resources for hell knows what reason.
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Software becomes more complex and more potent, you can't get new functionality without spending some resources like memory, CPU or storage. People don't realize how much the current software is different from software 5-10 years ago.
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I know this from my experience as a software developer.
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Sure - functionality needs resources. Although as software dev you might look at things from different perspective than user. W10 REALLY has lots and lots of stuff that I don't use and don't need. Or even stuff I treat as threat. I would rather not have those functionalities at all, or at least be able to choose which of them I want to have on my drive.
Now it's time for you as developer to try to convince me that subscription model is better than one time purchase :)
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What exactly does this have to do with subscription models?
I think in the big scheme of things, you're way exaggerating. Windows 10 does have a lot of things, which makes it the best OS we have out there right now, over win 11, over whatever else, but of course the purpose of an os varies by person. A lot of features you dislike can be turned off, like one drive, defender, etc. But you gotta consider even an app like steam uses around a gb of ram on it's own in idle assuming you're using the overlay. Naturally a whole os will use a bit more, win 10 requiring 2 for 64bit. Space wise 32gb for the os is not a big deal at all, you can get 30x that storage brand new for like what $50? It occupies less space than most AAA games nowadays and less than some indie games even. Heck try installing visual studio and add a few packages, or install the adobe suite. For what it does, it's pretty amazing.
Like it's understandable you want plug and play features, but that's exactly what linux is for and what makes it so fast for running servers. Not only that, in windows they do give you the option to disable services, error reports, certain memory intensive application or intrusive apps, at least for the most part. Maybe it's updates that bother you but even those have a workaround to stop if you so desire. But there has to be a general purpose OS that works really well out of the box even for less technical people. Also, the tools they provide in the os are amazing for debuggers, it or devs to figure out how to help you with your problems. So while you might not want them, those tools are there exactly for the right reasons, even though you might find it intrusive, you have to consider most people aren't as familiar with the OS as you are.
It's the most compatible os on the market and people complain it has a bunch of stuff, I mean all the variety and possibilities will mean it comes with a ton of things. It can throw that compatibility away and then it's just linux, or it can specify that compatibility and then it's a mac, but obviously it wants to be compatible.
TLDR: You want windows to be linux, but windows has no purpose in becoming linux because grandma didn't do an it course has no clue how to sudo.
I do feel somewhat negative about win 11 and the direction they're going, but win 10 is the king.
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app like steam uses around a gb of ram on it's own
Steam is another bloatware, but I use It because I have to in order to play most of games. And it's that way because it also has a lot of features, most of them designed to put adverts down your throat but not only ;) Also pc's are stronger than in the past, so devs became lazy and often ignore optimization.
A lot of features you dislike can be turned off
Some of them can be turned off. Most of them needs third party tools to turn them off, because M$ did not intended to give user freedom to turn them off.
You want windows to be linux
My favourite windows was XP. For me it was in the middle between Mac OS where you had almost no freedom to control it and linux, where you had to pay attention and tinker everything. Microsoft went in direction of apple products. I have weird feeling that one day they would cut off things outside microsoft store because "safety reasons". Also you would watch personalized adverts on your loading screen xD
Anyway - I already use open source apps for text, image, sound and video editing. And they work on linux as well. Only reason to use windows was for games, but that seems to be no longer the case. Steam deck did a lot to force devs to make their games running on linux. I wonder. Maybe in couple of years it will be linux associated with gaming and not windows, as it used to be? Right now I'm slowly testing waters, but I'm already sure, that my next OS upgrade won't have anything to do with M$.
What exactly does this have to do with subscription models?
Devs are greedy and lazy. Trying to convince me that lack of optimisation is normal is as good as convincing me that subscription model is better. Ofc it is. For devs/publishers.
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I have weird feeling that one day they would cut off things outside microsoft store because "safety reasons".
Not just you, that's the exact reason why GabeN went SteamOS way.
There are even rumors about subscription for Windows 12.
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"Steam is another bloatware, but I use It because I have to in order to play most of games. And it's that way because it also has a lot of features, most of them designed to put adverts down your throat but not only ;) Also pc's are stronger than in the past, so devs became lazy and often ignore optimization."Steam is not bloadware, not even close and you can customize most of those features, the same can be done on windows. Wouldn't be fair to call either bloatware. You choose to install it. Obviously to see a large library of games and discover new games you'd need a platform, so steam is actually a gift in a sense, as rather than you going on google and typing "where to find video games" and "any new video game released today", which would basically be the worst version of steam you could ever use due to mixed search results, at least on steam you see everything that releases there, upcoming, etc. Otherwise new games would be shared by who? Technically anyone trying to tell you about a new game would be advertising it to you and be "bloatware" to your standard. Like even if you use youtube to find games for instance, that's just your "storefront" for finding games. So it's not like you just imagine them existing and they do.
As for pc's being stronger than ever this is true (hence why we should not be making software that runs on win7 for instance, because it's an old os, we keep improving) and as for devs being lazy because of so many available resources, in a sense you aren't wrong, but in a sense you are, because 20 years ago you didn't have the complexity and compatibility that you have today, so the effort one has to go through is sometimes not needed as the things run fine enough. We could technically code everything in assembly doesn't mean we should spend 45 years coding something that takes 3 years now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL88IAxoYOk This dev explains it a bit better.
"Some of them can be turned off. Most of them needs third party tools to turn them off, because M$ did not intended to give user freedom to turn them off."The only thing I can imagine that you can't straight up turn off is updates, which is their idea of keeping one current version updated and safe rather than having to provide support for hundreds of versions because they're not open source and so the staff is more limited than anyone jumping in to fix something, but consider when you ask someone what linux you should get and they can't decide on one and give you 3 options, then you ask another linux user, they also give you 3 different options and you ask another user and you get 3 more, and now you have 9 options from 3 people and you have no clue wtf is going on.
"My favourite windows was XP. For me it was in the middle between Mac OS where you had almost no freedom to control it and linux, where you had to pay attention and tinker everything. Microsoft went in direction of apple products. I have weird feeling that one day they would cut off things outside microsoft store because "safety reasons". Also you would watch personalized adverts on your loading screen xD"That is the point of it though, it runs right out of the box for people who don't know how to use an OS. Like in between you and me, linux is fine because we can figure these things out, and if we get the wrong gpu driver we can fix it and tinker with it. But that doesn't pertain to most people's interests in what a PC should do for them. Most people just want plug and play.
I myself am concerned about the win11 too because it looks very apple like indeed, but thankfully we have tools to fix it and hopefully by the time most people transition they will realize the current win10 format is the best one. As for the adverts and things like that, I wouldn't be surprised if they push ads at some point(although they already do in some ways but people will shut them down like they do with adblocks on yt), and in that case, hopefully the open source linux devs can recreate a win10 environment properly and make it stable. If not I guess we'll all end up touching grass for once.
"Anyway - I already use open source apps for text, image, sound and video editing. And they work on linux as well. Only reason to use windows was for games, but that seems to be no longer the case. Steam deck did a lot to force devs to make their games running on linux. I wonder. Maybe in couple of years it will be linux associated with gaming and not windows, as it used to be? Right now I'm slowly testing waters, but I'm already sure, that my next OS upgrade won't have anything to do with M$."This is totally good, I myself am in support of better apps to replace the adobe line for instance(gimp unfortunately still isn't there, their ui is abysmal somehow I can never get used to it), and other tools like blender which competes with industry software(although this is what linux should learn from blender, provide your top version that the devs are working to improve, and then your past versions for reference, rather than split into many alive, dead, work in progress, abandoned, etc distributions). As for proton and steam deck I just hope valve doesn't drop it's support for proton once the steam deck becomes irrelevant, unless they choose to update it's hardware every few years and keep it going, which would be nice. That would most likely be a big blow for compatibility as atm I'm pretty sure they're getting funded by valve to make things better. As for linux being known for gaming, gonna be honest, when was this? I always thought linux had poor compatibility for games with it getting much much better in the past 2-3 years now that Gaben supports it. Linux as a gaming platform though I can't see anytime soon, unless through proton.
"Devs are greedy and lazy. Trying to convince me that lack of optimisation is normal is as good as convincing me that subscription model is better. Ofc it is. For devs/publishers."It's likely bosses who decide what happens tbh, it's probably more about getting it to work good on current hardware with some compatibility for older hardware, pushing it out, moving on to the next thing rather than spending time to optimize it too well when you could've implemented another great feature. I think there's always the intention of coming back to patch things up, but never making the time to do so because things are ever evolving. As for subscription models they're just good for the big ceo's, they collect the big paychecks, although devs do make a lot of money regardless, they do also get laid off a lot which is fair because they make too much money imo. But yes I agree subscription models suck, hence why I'll never get things like gamepass or the adobe suite, etc. I'm not about to temp license my games, although I hold a slightly different take on this with online games which I don't expect to run forever just because I paid once.
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As for linux being known for gaming, gonna be honest, when was this?
Could be my poor english skills. It's just my wishful thinking about the future. Maybe in 10 years people will just raise their eyebrow when they hear that somebody is playing games on windows. Just like not that long time ago when they heard about people playing on Mac OS. Like how many games were there? 10?
Technically anyone trying to tell you about a new game would be advertising it to you and be "bloatware" to your standard.
That could be the case. I'm more grumpy with each year after all. Also I'm one of those people who are always complaing after new steam version xD I would love to have some sort of "Steam light" launcher where I could just start my games and be left alone xD
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Well, if you don't need it - don't use it. There's a lot of people here with different needs. And if you want a full control over what is on your drive then you need to write your own OS and other software. Otherwise developers, whose products you use, decide this.
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write your own OS and other software
Or I can use open source stuff. I don't have to write app myself to know whether it's spying on me or not.
developers, whose products you use, decide this.
True. Luckilly I decide what product I use. And I don't have to listen to excuses if there is competition that gives me what I want. I sticked to Windows, because it was the best OS for gamers for a long time. Now I have alternatives.
And don't give me that:
People don't realize how much the current software is different from software 5-10 years ago.
I'm old enough to remember what devs were doing 20 years ago. And they were like magicans. They could squize from limited space and memory more than people who made that hardware were imagining was possible.
Now you have to download GB of data or use all of your memory because devs were too lazy or because publishers decided, that there is no time for that. Our product runs like shit? Tell them to buy better pc's. Better focus on inserting spyware everywhere to earn extra bucks from selling users data.
Current mainstream software is indeed different from 5-10 years ago. And it's not a good thing. Also it's different not because hardware, but because devs attitude towards user.
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Or I can use open source stuff. I don't have to write app myself to know whether it's spying on me or not.
I guess, you've never analyzed any open source software. If you think they never have any kind of telemetry then you're wrong.
And they were like magicans. They could squize from limited space and memory more than people who made that hardware were imagining was possible.
You're confusing cause and effect. They've done it not because they wanted it (although some probably did) but because there wasn't much choice. The hardware was too limited, and to make a decent product you were need to "do magic". This is very tedious and time-consuming, you can't compete with a such style of development now.
Our product runs like shit? Tell them to buy better pc's.
That's not a new story. It was so from the beginning. Software was buggy, slow and unreliable for ages. Not in the least because of the mentioned "magic" which gives advantages in one side but often backfires with incompatibility and unstability. Lack of proper testing is always a problem.
Also it's different not because hardware, but because devs attitude towards user.
That's not true, the world has changed, amount of information has increased drastically, programming is not anymore a job for chosen, everyone can write his own program. And all thus happened because hardware became more capable and cheap and software frameworks allow people instead of "inventing magic" do real stuff.
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excuses, excueses and excuses
Ok. I'll just keep using old apps instead of being free beta-tester for people who prefer doing "real stuff" instead of testing and fixing/optimisig their product.
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Of course you can call facts "excuses" though it won't make them less factual. Conspiracy theories are a neat way to escape reality...
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Reality is that I'm doing fine with free software (except games maybe) and old OS for now.
Keep that attitude and you will end up looking like Todd Howard during 2023 game awards.
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I don't want to disappoint you but free software is usually much worse in terms of quality and testing and if you consider yourself as "not a beta-tester" when you use free software - consider again. About using outdated and unsupported OS I won't even start - shoot yourself in the foot as much as you want.
So good luck with this approach.
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I'm ok with being beta-tester for free software. I'm not ok for being beta-tester for free for product that I had to pay for.
For my needs - I don't see a difference in quality between free stuff and paid stuff. At least with stuff that I'm using.
Lack of quality, lack of testing before release and general toxic approach towards end user (who is treated like milking cow) is the reason why I'm not using paid software in most cases. Why should I pay for something if I don't get product that's clearly superior? Outdated cookie-cutter arguments won't change my mind.
W7 is unsupported for almost 4 years now. I'm waiting to have a single issue due to that fact.
If you were a car dealer you would be complaing about me using 20 yo car. And you would try to convince me to scrap it and buy new one every 5 years.
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I kinda remember there was a Windows 10 update that moved several folders to different locations or deleted the files. That's some quality control right there.
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You can't predict everything, even strictest test could miss some specific cases. And since number of Windows users is tremendous, a probability that some flaw will be revealed after a release is pretty high.
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I agree to a certain point with you but this is all about money as many things in the world that become a standard when It comes to consumerism. You have a stable product like Windows XP that could easily still be working to this day with basic stuff and work faster and better for certain users. You want top notch graphic interface, DX12, best compatibility for new CPU architecture and hardware go Windows 10/11.
The could easily still support XP with a small fee charged by a software subsidiary that would stick to safety updates and browser support. This is not an option and I know It's irrelevant for you but It could work. There's so much old powerful hardware out there that goes to trash just because of lack of support, we already had this discussion like a month ago so I wont reply after this.
Linux is an option, problem is that every school teach to use Windows. Microsoft wouldnt exist as It is now if schools had choose Linux.
Anyway, I'm done, have a good new year's eve.
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If you don't see difference in quality then it tells more about your necessities than about quality of the products. I see a big difference between paid/free products. Not to mention that there's a lot of products where no free (and decent) alternatives exist.
Your analogy with car is not quite fitting. Cars usually don't get exploits (though it's steadily changing). And I wouldn't recommend you use 20yo car either just because of safety reasons.
Anyway I don't see much reasons in continuing this conversation you seem pretty sure in your opinion, hope it won't backfire on you. Happy New Year!
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You omitted, probably on purpose that sentence: " At least with stuff that I'm using."
Sticking with car analogy - my 20yo car with 1,4l engine is enough for my way to work (50km daily). I don't need Lamborghini for that task.
And I wouldn't recommend you use 20yo car either just because of safety reasons.
I love how "safety reasons" argument is literally everywhere. Again with cars:
https://seriousaccidents.com/legal-advice/top-causes-of-car-accidents/
from 25 most popular car accidents reasons - age of cars was not mentioned, checked the same for poland (official stats 2022) and most popular were: speeding, driving under influence, unsafe overtaking and so on). One of reasons was bad technical state of car - but you can have bald tires even in new car so it's not really related to age. Or are you telling me that I should replace whole car instead of old tires?
you seem pretty sure in your opinion, hope it won't backfire on you
yeah I'm sure in my opinion. From my own perspective, and from people I know - almost 100% of problems with viruses and malware were caused by irresponsible user behaviour. My last virus infection was more than 20 years ago and I pretty much installed it myself because of my own stupidity.
You can have W12 with all possible safety measures turned on and still get your stuff hijacked if you get too self confident. After all, when it comes to safety the weakest link is user. Again with cars - you can have brand new car with space technology but drive straight into a tree and die because of alcohol.
Happy New Year to you too!
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I'm old enough to remember what devs were doing 20 years ago. And they were like magicans. They could squize from limited space and memory more than people who made that hardware were imagining was possible.
You just reminded me of this, and it was 40 years ago, making it even more amazing.
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Holy s**t! I had no idea about this one xD Instead of going to bed I watched the whole clip and this stuff is amazing xD
It's amazing how they came up with idea to draw top part of screen in black/white and in high resolution and then switched to low res + colors on bottom part of screen xD
And devs today are like: "memory leak? whatever"
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Limits created great games. Look at old NES and SNES. They put bosses on the background as pre-made images and only had the parts you hit in the fore-ground to save on space and processing. Now they have so much power and freedom they just let it all fall apart, look how many games have so much potential and just flop. There are not many limits anymore so why innovate?
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Look at old NES and SNES.
Yes. I always think about clouds in Mario - they wanted to save some space for images but had some spare processing power, so clouds are made by vectors. They are generated mathematically and are not an image xD
There are not many limits anymore so why innovate?
This is kind of sad. We have not much innovations in programming but also in gameplay. Publishers don't like risk so they create more clones of Assassins Creed/Far Cry/Same yearly released sport/fps games. Most innovations come from indie scene, maybe exactly because of limited resources?
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Yea if you have 2k to make a game versus 2Mil you have to try harder to make something interesting and different. Rather then just hire voice talent and "the best" graphics. However sadly, like movies often publishers won't give the money to the smaller creators because it's risky.
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;)
It is admittedly still weird to see people holding on to Win 7. And not using modern phones. And so on.
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The thing is Win 7 can do everything that newer Windows versions can do in a better way without the spyware. However, new versions of some of the frequently used software like Chrome stopped supporting it.
In modern phones case, old ones can't do anything other than a phone call. There's a huge gap in functionality.
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If that is your concern then there's no point in using chrome anyways.
As for it running better, that's a bit subjective. Win7 pro 64bit supported 192gb of ram, while the non pro supported 16gb. You compare that with win 10 where the pro version supports 2tb, and the home version supports 128. While most users on win 7 pro wont use that much, what about the home version people who basically reached the point where 16gb isn't really enough anymore for many things and even if the win 10 os uses more to keep everything running, that's fine because ram isn't exactly expensive. Win7 also more stable with old software and games, while of course it's a lot more unstable with new things, which is the reverse of win10 which is better with newer stuff but worse with older games, etc. So I mean you aren't wrong at low levels although the difference is minimal and the performance is insignificant regardless which you own, but you are when it scales professionally or when you're talking about new games, new software, etc. which isn't made to perform on an old os.
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I used Chrome as an example because it is the reason why Steam will stop working on Win 7 with the new update. There are a lot of other software, OBS, VSCode, Python 3.8+ etc they all stopped supporting win 7 and that means any other software which is bound to using these will stop working on Win 7 as well.
I have never seen any home user needing more than 128 gb ram so I wasn't considering the upper limits.
Yes that's what I mean, Win 7 didn't lack anything in terms of the functionality or performance, but it is just an issue with the external software support that forces people to upgrade.
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This would apply to VSCode as the os owners made it. If you're concerned about spyware you'd stay away from those anyways, not just blame the win os alone for it. Can't say about obs or python since they're open source projects but it depends what ide you use with python, if it's vscode then again it's microsoft, who made windows so you haven't avoided them, even if you use it on linux. OBS it wouldn't matter because no matter where you stream, kick, twitch, yt, guess who they are? So whether you like it or not, you're playing in their hands whether you use linux or ms or whatever. IJS.
I meant win7 home is 16gb on 64 bit. The pro edition is 192. Not sure if you mean home users using the pro version. So I was suggesting if you're an at home blender dev trying to render large scenes for your short project 16gb vs 32 or 128 would impact your experience. If you're at home running chrome, steam, a game, and a program on the side, 16gb might not be enough. But yeah if you had the pro win7 edition it was fine, now you're fine with just the win 10 home edition, and probably for another 10 years as it has a limit of 128gb and I don't think games will use that much soon.
As for the external software support not being available for it after so many years, it makes sense to me. These big applications are made on a newer system, and they're pushing the limit. To do so, they use the latest OS which will use as of any resource they can use, so maybe they are using 2tb in some machine to compile some software, and as such they can now deliver a piece of software that has all these amazing features but requires more ram to run, better cpu, better gpu, etc. It would be impractical for them to forever keep making a product that will always run on older limited functionality hardware, as then they're basically downgrading their capability on purpose. It also makes no sense for them to keep supporting all these versions.
The goal should always be to see how far can we go and reach new horizons, not how long can we maintain our technology at this point because "it's working fine right now and we don't have to improve despite there being plenty of room to do so". There were people saying the same things about dos, win 95, xp and vista, and while I used all of those, other than nostalgia purposes I don't want to make those my primary pc use over what is available today.
Like I get you, it's a good os, but win 10 is better imo at least, and it makes more sense to support win10 over win7, considering that win 10 is a more complete version of win7 technically, and it's more friendly, and more compatible and easier to use and all the devs making their programs don't have to make one for win10 and win7 but they can focus on bettering the win10 experience which will provide more support for them.
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I'm triple booting 7 pro, 10 pro, and mint on 3 separate drives.
I have noticed that the drive activity light spasms in 10 compared to 7. I don't know if this is due to windows 10 having a lower activity threshold at which it triggers the light, or if 10 runs the drive more.
Since it is 10 pro, i modified the group policy to turn off telemetry. I installed my own favorite AV so i don't have to rely on MS updates to make Win Defender work. I disabled ads on the start menu, cortana, and made the search only search the local computer. I'm using a local account, so that also possibly defeats some of the spyware, and definitely stops the possible Bitlocker bug (where 10 home computers without bitlocker glitch and turn it on by themselves--not even MS can get into those computers and say to reinstall windows at this point.) (bitlocker is all fine and good if you set it up and have a password, but is no fun if you don't have the password.)
I did the steps from the other thread to stop steam from updating the program--we will see if the old software can still connect to steam's servers in a few days.
Like Aradiel says above,
Windows 7 wasn't perfect, but when 10 first launched, it was quite bad. Poor driver support, a lot of crashes, and worst of all, it was just needlessly different, and things that were simple to do on 7 were a chore on 10.
I feel like 11 is even worse in this aspect. The right-click context menu in 11 is literally awful in this regard.
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I feel like 11 is even worse in this aspect. The right-click context menu in 11 is literally awful in this regard.
It's the only thing which annoys me about Win 11. In every other regards, it's vastly superior to Win 10. Alone the finally clean start menu is a blessing. I hated Win 10's start menu so much.
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You can get the old contextual menu back by adding a registry key. https://www.howtogeek.com/759449/how-to-get-full-context-menus-in-windows-11s-file-explorer/
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Yeah, I am aware of that. However, I don't use explorer all that much, so that saved one extra click isn't too much trouble in hindsight.
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It takes literally under a minute after which the context menu won't be an annoyance anymore. After all, it's annoying enough for you to have you mention it (:
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I will use it for steam as long as it won't stop working. Steam decided that bricking it at 1st jan 2024 is actually a bad idea and they even changed wording in their message to w7 users (from "it will stop working" to it will stop receiving updates").
If one day it will stop working due to server side changes - I will just focus on my physical backlog. I actually have quite a lot of games on dvd's and cd's xD
I'm in quite good situation, because my wife is a gamer and she demanded new PC for Cyberpunk, so now I have additional machine with w10 on board. Quite a disappointment when it comes to OS though. W10 is stupid bloatware. Needs a lot of work to make it comfortable to use and to not see some garbage everywhere.
Also I would be nice if that stupid thing allowed me to say NO once and accept that. I'm pissed off everytime, when i can't just turn it on and do my stuff without telling it that I don't want that w11 update!
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You probably know these but in case of not I'm adding them here:
https://christitus.com/windows-tool/
https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10
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Also I would be nice if that stupid thing allowed me to say NO once and accept that. I'm pissed off everytime, when i can't just turn it on and do my stuff without telling it that I don't want that w11 update!
Use the Registry Editor or Group Policy methods here: https://www.pdq.com/blog/how-to-block-the-windows-11-upgrade/to kill the prompt to update to 11. If you have 10 pro you can access the group policy editor. If not, the Registry Editor works. Just make sure you set the target to 22H2, as that is the "last" version of windows 10.
I did it and it blocks the "see if your computer can update to windows 11" prompt.
TLDR; it tells windows update that this computer's ideal version of windows, as far as updates are concerned, is W10 22H2. Windows Update won't offer W11 afterwards, as that is not the "ideal version."
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Nice. thanks for advice - I'll try it out for sure :)
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I'm currently pretty much exclusively using my laptop which is running Windows 10 so that's gonna be fine, but I have another 3 PC's and all of them are still running Windows 7. One is an old netbook that quite simply won't run anything other than W7 properly due to poor driver support, I was still actively using it for old games up until early this year because it has a really nice lower res screen and very comfy keyboard but it's pretty much a lost cause now as far as running Steam goes. Another one is my main desktop PC that is kinda outdated hardware wise but still by far the best PC I own so I'll have to bite the bullet and upgrade to W10. The final one is an even older desktop PC that I still keep around but don't really use much less run games on it so I don't really care.
To be honest my main annoyance with Windows 10 is that I can't get the drivers for one of my controllers (my favorite one) to install right, so the vibration just won't work, but I can't be all that surprised considering it's a Vista era controller from Genius, and that brand has a horrendous track record when it comes to maintaining drivers.
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personally if I was stuck on such old hardware I'd download/install all games in my steam account and zip them up somewhere, then swap the exe with a cracked one when needed or re-download by sailing the old seas, and for new purchases switch to GoG
I still have some old functional xp and win7 machines, but they're mostly museum paperweights. There's this one game that literally only runs on xp though
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Yeah, same here. Good that my account trash anyway xD
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I use Windows 10 currently and I'll most likely switch to Linux once I'm done with it.
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For now I tried adding "BootStrapperInhibitAll=enable BootStrapperForceSelfUpdate=disable" to steam.cfg , guess i will have to wait and see if it stops the steam client from bricking. I tried looking for a SSD drive that I could use to replace my WAN card, but didn't find anything so I'm planning to buy a SATA caddy for a bigger SSD. Then I'll try installing Windows 10 and having a 7/10 dual boot.
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I have two PCs, one with Windows 7 for older software support, and one with Windows 10 that I use for games and browsing the Internet.
I'll jump into Linux sooner or later since I don't like or trust Windows anymore, but for now my setup works ok for my needs.
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Windows 10 should work fine as long as u have 1GHz CPU and 4GB of ram which is like the minimum for the very old games u can even buy used PCs / Laptops for around 200$
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1GHz CPU and 4GB of ram which is like the minimum for the very old games
you have a weird interpretation of very old. or minimum. or games. I can also play some of the latest games on something not much better than that, age has little to do with anything.
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im talking about AAA games so u are telling me that Call of Duty released in 2003 requires a 4090 ? u can play the latest games on something better than that but u cant even go to main menu if u tried to run any AAA games released past few years
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that's what I meant. for you only aaa games are games but that's more of a you problem. the rest of your comment doesn't make sense either. old games don't need 1ghz, nor 4gb ram, so the complete opposite of what you're insinuating.
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If your gaming setup is that ancient, I guess you would want to upgrade anyway.
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now that the final days are here for Windows 7 and 8/8.1 users what are you planning to do going forward?
Using another PC/laptop you already have?
Using or buy a Steam Deck?
Buying another machine to use it on?
For me personally I am more than happy to give up using Steam altogether - i don't really play it that much and can't really afford a Steam Deck right now - so it isn't that much of a loss to me, but i was wondering what other will do or feel?
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