What should we do?
Innaccurate in which way? I thought it was explained pretty well.
Giveaways of Ultra Street Fighter® IV are linked to http://store.steampowered.com/app/45760/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/, which is what you get with the Arcarde Edition : https://steamdb.info/sub/8723/apps/
The actual package you get when purchasing Ultra Street Fighter® IV is https://steamdb.info/sub/50773/apps/, which isn't on the giveaway list.
So both versions can be used for giveaways, since both give the game linked to the giveaway
Like he said. When you create a GA you giveaway Appid 45760. Both the digital upgrade and arcade edition have the same appid for base game. It was explained here by the dev.
As TempeteJoachim wrote, When you buy ultra edion on steam you get appid 50773 which includes some DLC and digital upgrade etc.
But the basegame is actually just appid 45760 no matter if you have the upgrade or arcade edition.
But like I wrote in the other thread I linked. I think its common courtesy to write in the desciption of the GA if it includes the upgrade pack or not. And about the bundle list. I guess it should be on it if you can get the arcade for a dollar.
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I just replied there, read it. TL;DR: They share the same AppID but they are not the same game.
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I understand the problem, but again, Im fairly certain its actually the same game until I see some actual proof its not.
That noone plays online anymore on arcade edition is a diffrent problem. Main reason for same appid is because of network compability between users that bought the ultra edition from the beginning. And from users that only had Arcade Edition and then bough the upgrade
The game by itself that has appid 45760 would be vey wierd if its not actually the same. Dont know how that would work if if some users have ultra street fighter 4 from the start and another user has a diffrent game with same upgrade.
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Buy Ultra Street Fighter IV
Customers who do not yet own Street Fighter IV Arcade Edition can buy this package to acquire Ultra Street Fighter IV (including Arcade Edition content).
Even says so in the description when you buy that it includes Arcade Edition. Which is the base game with appid 45760
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Man, it's not that difficult to understand. Is Excel 2003 the same program as Excel 2016? 2016 includes all features from 2003 but it's a totally different program.
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Except that it's the same AppID, which is what SteamGifts checks. It's the right giveaway (I just tried creating one, just to check). The base game is without DLC.
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Well they are the same program but the other one is a newer upgraded version. I completely understand your point in what you are saying but dont think you understand my point just because they renamed it.
Let say that the name was still Super Steet Fighter IV: Arcade Edition but they made an upgrade for it. So the base game is 50773 and the upgrade is 48989.
But because its a new version they are nice and include the upgrade for free when you buy a new copy. If I giveaway the basegame 50773 and just because you can buy a package on that site that gives you the upgrade too. That upgrade pack has a diffrent appid then you are giving away. What says that I have to give you the upgrade too when Im just trying to give away the base game?
Like I said. I understand what you are saying and understand the problems. But in this scenario you giveaway a certain appid. The package you wrote cant be choosen in the giveaway list.
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It's not the same game. Did you read this? http://steamcommunity.com/app/45760/discussions/0/34094415758294227/
Also, if you can't connect to the Ultra version servers it's because they are different. They share the same AppID because it's necessary for potential buyers of the DLC so the multiplayer servers can recognise the AppID.
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giving away a game without DLC is still the same game
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Name Change from SSF4AE to Ultra SFIV
That actually makes it pretty clear that giveaways of Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition created as Ultra Street Fighter IV are the correct title.
Ultra SFIV is actually SSF4AE , and the real Ultra SFIV is Ultra SFIV + Ultra Street Fighter IV Upgrade.
So the real problem is :
- they renamed the old version to Ultra Street Fighter IV which is confusing
- that old version is not available for purchase thus has no price so the value used for giveaways is the first price found on the page, which is for the actual Ultra SFIV package.
So it's just that the value should be corrected to whatever was the price of the arcade version
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Again, Super was given away for free. Either it should be deleted outright, or Ultra itself should be removed from the list [if they're actually considered to be 'the same game']. Likewise, even if staff does approve of posting under the incorrect label, it's worth noting that as different games, the winner still has the right to mark 'Not Received' if they receive Super. In other words, removing Ultra from the list entirely is probably the easiest way to avoid both exploitation and hassle, and yet that hasn't been done. The entire situation is weird, as is your continued defense of it, which consistently disregards the many issues related to the listing.
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please tell me how to create a giveaway for the base game
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You can't there is no "Base game". Mods are wrong on this one. If you get a Super AE key, you will get in your library a game title called Ultra SF4, and when you play load the game it will be.... Super AE, not Ultra which it was listed as on here. It doesn't matter what it says on the library in Steam. What you load up is SSF4 AE.
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That's pretty much what I've said the entire time. They renamed the Arcade Edition as USFIV on Steam, which is why it appears under this name on your account, and why it appears under this name on the giveaway list. The game itself is still the AE, and to get the actual Ultra Edition you need the Upgrade DLC (which, if you look at it on Steam, is listed as a DLC for USFIV, even though it's to upgrade from the AE).
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The thing is we are monkeying about with keys. You can not buy a "base game" as there is no such thing. It is not something that is sold on Steam. The most logical solution is hand creating a giveaway ID for SSF4:AE.
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No need to have a custom ID, renaming the current entry of USFIV as Arcade Edtition and fixing its value would be fine. Then we can add the sub for the actual USFIV package.
But that's something only cg could do, so don't expect it to happen overnight.
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What if someone wanted to gift the game from Steam or perhaps another site has keys. The base game IS the full game. I think the misconception here is that there is a "base game" and "full game" there is not. See https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/2qq6sUb
appID's aside, you get a completely different game if you activate a SSF4:AE key.
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What I think is happening here is that if you look at https://steamdb.info/app/45760/subs/ Activating the actual Ultra SF4 key or game is granting sub 97970, but in fact if you activate a SSF:AE key you only get sub 8025.
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If you buy it from Steam (EU store at least) you get https://steamdb.info/sub/50773/. You can find this by going to the store page of the game and hovering the "Add to cart" button with your mouse, then at the bottom of your browser window you should see "javascript:addToCart(50773);".
I could add this package to the giveaway list so it would be used for actual Ultra SF4 copies, while /app/45760/ remains for the Arcade Edition. None of the SSFIV: AE sub appears in the database unfortunately, otherwise I could have added one and simply remove /app/45760.
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50773 isn't an app, it's a sub that includes the 45760 app + a bunch of DLCs. The Arcade Edition just includes the 45760 app with nothing else. So both versions share the same core files and the Ultra edition expands upon them.
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Here's a quick test I just did.
I first installed the game after unchecking all DLCs in the properties window : http://i.imgur.com/FhWwTTj.jpg
Then after downloading the upgrade DLC (notice how the window is still named SSFIVAE) : http://i.imgur.com/uwZztJZ.jpg
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That's another proof they are different games.
notice how the window is still named SSFIVAE
That's because the .exe is the same (same base AppID), but when you run it with the DLC it loads the files from the Ultra Edition.
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A workaround could be: remove /app/45760/ (because it was related to SSFIV: AE before August 2014 and it was free in Alienware). Then, add only /sub/50773 to the database/giveaway list. This way it should be more clear that every giveaway must include the DLCs.
Thanks.
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It's not the incorrect label. They changed the name. If you activate a key for the Arcade Edition, it will come up as Ultra Street Fighter IV both in the activation window and on your licenses page, because that's what the arcade edition is called now.
At this point I don't see how I could explain it any better so I probably won't comment any further on this.
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Yes, I think is well explained in the OP. The thing is, will you (the admins/mods) do something about it or can we keep exploiting this mess freely? It should be added to the bundle list at least.
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Ideally we would correct the price, but since only cg could do that, don't expect it to happen very soon.
The main thing I wanted to address is that it is not a problem in regard to rules. I was not aware of the grey market prices but I can forward to the bundler so he can look into this.
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No, Ideally it should be removed, because people got a far lesser thing, as Sooth pointed out, especially the not online part and it's been given free at one point.
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That's ok, the problem is there's probably at least one (or more) member(s) who gave the full (legit Ultra) version and he'll probably complain about it if he sees his CV dropping because of this matter. I understand this is a difficult decision.
Thanks.
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Ugh what a mess, and i won it actually, and didn't even know.
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Yeah but do i mark it not received? It's the same yet it isn't because of 2 appids or something?
And it's just when you just miss a DLC you normally know.
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it's the same appid, and per a previous ruling it's a legit GA
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You can mark it as not received if you didn't get the "Ultra SFIV Digital Upgrade DLC". Giving the Arcade Edition as Ultra is a CV exploit (it is unbundled).
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it's not an exploit, and it'll be added to the bundle list retroactively.
Marking not received is a violation. Read the rest of that thread, see what the mod wrote, and don't listen to a rando
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Marking not received is a violation.
If you won it before the release of the Ultra version then yes, but if you won a giveaway with the word "Ultra" in the title and you don't get the DLC you're getting the Arcade Edition, a totally different game.
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again, see the comment from TempeJoachim, who's a mod.
The different versions have the same app ID, so either is a win
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What exactly did you mean with "who's a mod"? Mods are the owners of the absolute truth or what?
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I meant "who is a mod". they're the ones making a determination on the rules of this website.
Yes, with and without the content is different, but steamgifts cannot detect the difference. AND, there is no other way to give out the arcade version than by using that giveaways.
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So you think it's ok if I buy 10 copies for $10 to get ~$300 full CV and the winners will not be able to play the Ultra version because I gave them the Arcade Edition? Yes, that's exactly what most if not all people is doing.
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no, it's not ok to get that much CV, and I'm pretty sure the game will end up on the bundle list because of that. But there have always been CV exploits, such as wehn Humble Bundle has a bundle of development software, where you can literally get 30x what you spent even after the bundle list discount. Unfortunately, the bundle list is the easiest way to address sales and pricing issues, but it's a blunt tool. Being more specific is far too labor intensive.
As for it being OK that winners only get the arcade edition, yeah, that's ok. It's not like they bought the game and got something else. They won something, they got it for free. Boohoo if it's not the full version
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According to established site guidelines, you have the right to mark it Not Received, regardless of its APPID- according to a very consistent precedence, you have the right to give more than promised, but not less. Of course, standard procedures aren't being observed for this game to begin with, so there's certainly a risk to taking such actions.
Note also:
Beta keys, guest passes, coupons, and free games should not be given away.
Giveaways should accurately reflect the game being given away. If the game is not available in the giveaway list, please contact support to have the game added, instead of posting the giveaway under an incorrect name
The state of the AppID is entirely irrelevant to what the foundational rules cover for this situation (as this is both a Previously Free and a Currently Unlisted game), in addition to this situation not meeting established extended implementations of those rules.
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I totally agree with you. The thing is Capcom developers are ignorants, they should have created a new AppID for Ultra version instead of sharing the AppID with a totally different game. And then, if they want the Arcade users to upgrade, offer them a loyalty discount, a coupon or something.
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The issue here isn't Capcom- weird Steam publisher quirks happen regularly, and regardless of if a better approach was possible, Capcom had clear reasons for doing what they did.
The actual issue is that not only is there a weird exception being made for this game on SG, one which is being regularly exploited (and thus yet again being made an exception for in not being removed just for that), but that Tempete keeps encouraging exploiters by indicating the approach is legitimate, despite consistently avoiding addressing the actual points of discussion in favor of nitpicking an irrelevant topic of the involved APPID. Nevermind his stamping away in a pretend-fit of righteous indignation when he gets called out to actually address the real topic.
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Pretty sure that's not what either over a month of not going to the bundler or "At this point I don't see how I could explain it any better so I probably won't comment any further on this." indicates.
I'm certainly correct about how that specific sentence is to be interpreted by its grammatical presentation within the overall context of the conversation (that is, a continued unwillingness to address the topics and a desire to abandon the conversation rather than do so), as well as the established site rules and expectations that would presumably apply to the matter. I'm not psychic, so if Tempete has other considerations related to the matter, or if his intent didn't match how his words came across, then he could explain such clearly- instead of, y'know, literally saying he wouldn't do so.
Also, while the issue is minor in its importance, it's certainly not imaginary.
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If the approach is legitimate I'll probably buy 10-20 copies and link the giveaway here because, you know, it's "the same game" ;)
Then probably they'll do something. Let's wait.
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"They" is a bit counter-intuitive. Most of the general moderation staff likely hasn't given this any consideration, cg generally doesn't address things unless pushed into it, and the odd lengthy delay or oversight on the bundlelist isn't unexpected from our sole Bundler. Tempete is really the only one who has made a firm stand on the topic, and given his unwillingness to address the points more relevant to the matter, it's not like we've actually had any staff member give a clear response yet.
But yeah, if it's allowed, then it's allowed, regardless of how it breaks from expected form. At the point where a clear decision in either direction is given, then we have something we can work with [even if it's to dubious intents].
Still, Ultra isn't even on the bundle games list, so at $1, at least we'd finally have a counterpoint to people criticizing Gamemaker (or, inexplicably, the comparatively far less valuable Clickteam) bundle returns. Not that that shouldn't necessarily be given further consideration, but this'd definitely trump that in CV returns.
I assume at the very least, we'll see a bundling- though the real question is, if it'll be appropriately retroactive to SSFIV's free date or not.
The difference in price after bundling wouldn't be too significant, so that'd definitely be a bandaid fix. Of course, it'd still be a weird break from normal site expectations, and still have a lot of potential issues for people who get a game they didn't expect [and have established rights to NR on].
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Well, it's better if they add it to the bundle list than if they do nothing. If they add it to the bundle list we'll see less people giving Arcade Edition as Ultra to get full CV, because the real Ultra Edition is a lot more expensive in the grey market (around 8-$10, digital upgrade DLC alone is around $7) and almost nobody spends this sum for a giveaway to strangers. For example, I will not buy those 10-20 copies if they add it to the bundle list :P
I see it as a dissuasive measure more than a real solution for this problem.
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Given the rather.. determined.. response thus far, maybe an indirect solution is the most meaningful response we can expect.
Of course, with how firmly things have been pushed, there's the chance that cg'll finally do some updating to the officially listed rules- but on the other hand, we've long since learned not to hold our breath on such.
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Absolutely not correct. You need to stop repeating that users would have the right to mark it as Not Received.
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If you're not going to address the topics being discussed, then there's not much point in listening to you demand they not be discussed. For the time being, I have the right to quote listed site rules, and note established interpretations of such, just as you have the right to add any clarifications you feel they warrant.
To clarify that- I don't see any listed rules, nor have there ever been established expectations, against making comments that a moderator doesn't like or willfully misunderstands context to [so long as those comments don't violate other site guidelines]. Much like how your interpretation of the current situation with Ultra doesn't match listed rules or established expectations.
I'd offer constructive advice, like "have cg update the guidelines if they're no longer relevant" and "have cg clarify 'hidden rules' better", but even if you yourself were willing to be constructive for a moment, we've been asking cg to do those things for years without much success, so there's presumably not much point to it.
Rather than continuously willfully misunderstanding the topics I'm bringing up, maybe you should avoiding interacting with me at all unless I'm actually breaking site rules. If, you know, you'd like to offer actual constructive, topic-relevant information for a change, that'd also be agreeable.
High-handed, rude comments don't do anything but continue to aggravate a situation you yourself brought to bear.
Besides, you've been wrong about site rules several times in the past, and as you seem more determined to be hostile and dismissive than contribute to the topic, there's no real reason to take you "on your word".
Especially as not only the guidelines list the rules mentioned, but the actual Terms of Service do, as well:
the Gift you send to the Winner accurately represents the game being given away;
you are responsible for leaving feedback on the Website marking the Gift received or not received, and will ensure that feedback is both accurate and up-to-date as to whether or not you received a legitimate Gift from the giveaway creator that accurately represents the game being given away;
According to ToS, listing "received" would actually be a violation of what we agreed to, in using this site.
Again, that's for cg to comment on or update, or for you to explain. Not for you to say "My word is more meaningful than guidelines, tos, and all precedence up to this point".
That's just flaunting your moderator status like a cudgel, defiant of any obligations of the role. In some places, yes, that's the right of general site staff. Yet again, this site's precedence argues that utilization of power.
By all means, actually respond to our questions of why the matter doesn't meet expectations. But right now, this behavior of misinterpreting points of discussion and responding to them with arrogant dismissal, it's shameful.
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If it comes up as Ultra Street Fighter IV when you activate it, it's listed as Ultra Street Fighter IV on your licenses page, and the store page of Ultra Street Fighter IV says you own Ultra Street Fighter IV, then you'd better mark that as received.
I don't care whether you agree or not, if you keep repeating this and anyone actually marks it not received because they heard that from you, I guarantee you're getting suspended along with them.
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Ah, the bully approach. "My way or else, even when it makes no logical sense! RESPECT MY AUTHORITY!"
Glad to see you've moved this matter to such an enlightened direction.
I never stated what you described. In fact, I clearly indicated that I thought it was risky to mark Not Received (and likely'd end with issue). I gave explanation that NR is appropriate under listed site guidelines and precedence for packages, and that under those conditions it was correct. I never made the definitive claim to the current topic that you're claiming- in fact, if you'd ever paid attention to my points of discussion, you'd realize that the topic I kept bringing up was related to how this game seemed to act oddly in relation to established rules (and maybe you'd understand why APPID isn't relevant to the topic, even though it does have firm bearing on certain other activation considerations).
In either case, that comment of mine was a lovely opening for a constructive comment by you to clarify the matter, but you decided to resort to an ambiguous rudeness, instead. Whether you misinterpreted my comments, or whether others did, is not my responsibility [so long as I took minimal steps to avoid such, as I clearly did]. You can keep pushing your own responsibilities off, but when you start resorting to childish threats under the umbrella of a power we already clarified you likely don't have, then, wow- that's something else.
Nevermind that the entire topic is how this game causes such issues of interpretation, and that some sort of resolution should be achieved to avoid it. So, your response actually overwhelmingly validates the perspective I've been stating (and which you've been ignoring).
So, other than proving yourself capable of yet again presenting counter-productive responses, and proving yourself more of a power-abusive jerk than you'd already revealed yourself to be, I'm not sure what most of that previous post accomplished.
Yes, thank you for clarifying that APPID is the basis for suspension on NR. Thank you for clarifying details as to- hang, nope. Still no details or respectful interaction. Still, an important bit of information. A pity you weren't able to present it constructively, yet again.
Seriously. I don't know what's causing your initial unwillingness to approach the matter constructively and address the questions of conflict with guidelines and free game status and so forth- I'm thinking a self-destructive unwillingness to admit ignorance, by this point- but this reckless escalation of the thread into drama is nonsensical.
And, honestly, now that I've gotten this "last word" in, I'm through with it, and attempting any form of reasonable discussion with you.
Unlike you, apparently, I can actually grasp that it's not the place of either of us to make claims to reinterpretations of site rules under our own authority, so I'll leave this matter to be properly addressed.
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https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/sljs90i
due to the winner's right to mark Not Received.
and btw
Tempete's awkward handling of the situation, which is causing the topic to get more dramatic than it ever needed to be.
as if you ever needed me to make up drama out of frivolous matters, you've managed that without my help numerous times.
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You still ignored every point he made and were on the wrong end of the argument each turn.
I love you guys both but Sooth is right on this one.
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Well, I still need the upgrade pack. Mine, actually, is still super arcade. I don't have the extra characters and stages.
Edit- If that can still be made as GA, I'd GLADLY enter.
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You could still enter giveaways for: http://store.steampowered.com/app/301660/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV_Digital_Upgrade/ (if you want to add it to your wishlist).
But I seriously doubt you'll see a giveaway for that DLC alone because it's easier to buy the Arcade Edition for $1, create a giveaway here as the Ultra edition and get 30 CV instead of 15 ;)
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The upgrades been on my wishlist for a long time.
But I understand what you are saying about it being easier to do that.
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I'm not going to help anyone to exploit that version for CV until something is done about this matter, but it's not so hard to find it by yourself ;)
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Good. Don't help. CV exploiters need to learn to get it legitimately.
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Be careful who you call exploiter.
People might say that about you... a person that gave a lot less than have won. Maybe you exploit steamgifts... ^^
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I give what and when I can. Having no job leaves me only open to Tremor coins at the moment. If I had more money, I would gladly give to level 10.
But until the day/year/millennium comes where someone will actually hire me, I'm afraid that's going to have to be minimal.
Sorry.
And let people say what they want about me. I really don't care.
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Was just curiosity. I though it was a bundle and I could buy for myself. Didn't even know there was an issue before this thread.
You don't have to be rude for no reason. And you are overreacting.
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I was not pretending to sound rude, my apologies if it seemed like that. I meant that I'm not going to publish links here to grey marketplaces where anyone can get it for cheap. I was not talking about you wanting to exploit the system, but in general. If nothing is done, then I will open a new thread with all the steps to exploit CV with this game, with links to stores and comments from a mod saying that Arcade Edition is the same as Ultra so everyone must mark it as received or be suspended.
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EDIT: Apparently the "Arcade edition" no longer exists and Capcom has officially changed it to Ultra Street Fighter IV. So there's now Ultra Street Fighter IV and then if you want to get online play and DLC you can get the "Ultra Street Fighter IV Upgrade"
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The developer changed it so differentiate. Street Fighter Arcade Edition is now Ultra Street Fighter IV without DLC.
What was formerly Ultra Street Fighter IV is now Ultra Street Fighter IV + Digital Upgrade - i.e. it's base game + DLC.
I'm not speaking about the morality, but technologically, there is no longer a distinction. (as they have the same AppID - which is the only thing Steamgifts can check)
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Ok fair enough. Thanks for the info. I've edited my original post since Capcom changed things.
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Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition
=
Ultra Street Fighter IV
nothing wrong with it, just capcom messing up everything. and don't worry, most winners won't even play the game, just idle cards so they won't notice some characters are missing. SG-Style™ 👌
don't burn your eyes with all the sg-police in this giveaway.
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They share the AppID but they're not the same game, you can't even play online with the "Ultra version" owners. About Capcom developers: https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/EkEezt0
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Because with Clickteam Fusion you get exactly just that, not the same program with half of the functions removed.
I haven't seen the reason why it can't be just removed all together, also because it has been free at one point.
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As Lugum said, the main problem is that you're not getting what you're supposed to get (Ultra has all the DLCs listed in the OP). And the second problem is CV exploitation. I hope they'll do something.
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Frankly, same here; that's a different topic from how the site itself handles things, though.
People who intentionally mislist the game deserve to get their Not Receiveds, though- I, for one, have no interest in a broken half-complete game, and getting "bullied" into accepting it encourages an equal level of consideration for the other party.
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cv exploitation?
this was ok to farm, SF4 isn't.
getting free stuff at tremorgames is also ok to give away, sf4 isn't.
yes, i'm a cv exploiter.
also, people LOVE to cover their sketchy behavior with sg-rules all the time, but now it's bad despite support saying it's ok and there are no issues?
#hypocrites
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Exploitation is secondary but yes, you can't get full CV for this game spending $1 or probably less trading for it. Also, if it's ok for the admins I will exploit it myself too :P
The real problem is, as I said, that you're not getting what you're supposed to get (base game+DLCs). It's the same as if you create a giveaway for a Complete/GOTY Edition of any game and you only give the base game.
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and that would be the "correct moral choice", but since sg doesn't care about it and only getting the proper appID is important (to check activation), they allowed this.
is it a bad thing? probably, but it's no different than most things that annoy people on sg and aren't against the rules.
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Well, the rules are made by cg and some of the mods (I guess) and they are human after all. I only wanted to know their opinion on this matter and the opinion of the members in general, of course, that's why I opened this thread instead of opening a ticket.
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the rules were made by CG, the mods interpret the rules. The mods have interpreted the situation, and that interpretation is logical and consistent with the rules.
Not an ideal situation, but it is what it is
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Tremorgames was deemed not free as you have to do something to gain x coins and thus get a "free" copy, copies that have a limt.
Street Fighter 4 afaik was just free (i don't know to what extend).
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Also, the point of steamgifts is to give away right?
You don't give away... people complain.
You give away... people still complain.
To me, people that complain about CV exploitation are the ones that don't want or can't buy that game/software to give away.
I see that as envy...
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of course it's envy, if the game returned 1cv, they would shut up and leech like crazy.
brb, gotta get 2 more copies so i can farm x5 before support disables it. <3
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if we all did this we would fix SF4!
and also fix our CV <3
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Hmm. Yep.
Pretty much nailed it.
Bundle it and call it a day.
(EDIT: Btw, people - calling out in giveaways is against the rules. I don't advise it.)
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I was suspended once for that... tsc tsc
Never again. lol
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You're not really a bona fide SG'er until you've been suspended once. ;)
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seems you forgot to pay for your "calling out is allowed because i'm high level or friends with support" pack.
i heard it's very popular amonst elitists.
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Fear not. Got a job today so soon I'll be able to pay my fee.
Also, road to level 10 will be easier and brighter. ^^
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Right, cause god forbid we don't through every single one of those 18,647 tickets within 10 minutes of being submitted, or else be called biased for the 10,000th time by Mullins.
Grow up.
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You don't give away... people complain.
You give away... people still complain.
but, when you give Witcher3 or Fallout4... people won't complain ;-)
unless of-course you use SGTools or too high level :P
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But what's the point of giving Fallout 4 and not making it high level?
That wouldn't be fun... ^^
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no no, no fun allowed, you must do lvl 0 only, and only Fallout4 gibs from now on, otherwise.. *complains!!!* :P
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I actually saw people complaining about a level 0 Fallout 4 giveaway because it was 'going to be wasted on bots'. You literally can't win...
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'cause there are currently no rules or expectations against Clickteam Fusion posting, while there are for situations such as SSFIV. It's not a matter of what's right or wrong, but of an inconsistency in site rule application, and how that leads to exploitation of a free and somewhat broken game on the one hand and possible GA creator screwout on the other, due to the winner's potential right to mark Not Received.
The real issue, from an SG perspective, is of course Tempete's awkward handling of the situation, which is causing the topic to get more dramatic than it ever needed to be.
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why do you keep saying the winner has the right to mark "not received", when a mod has consistently said that the winner does not have the right? and that mod has explained why it is supported by the rules
It's not Tempete's handling of the situation. The situation is awkward, but he's interpreting the rules and how they address this situation.
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Why do you keep saying that they are not the same game? Its not different base games. The base game is the same.
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But apparently no online gameplay while the other has, then it's really not the same.
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It has online gameplay. The problem is noone plays there because they all play on the upgraded version.
The arcade version has been given away for free, so I dont really understand why they dont just remove it from the giveaway list.
If 45760* version was removed from the list and we had the subid instead. Then it would be valid to say its not the same because then you dont actually get everything you should.
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That subscription is not well configured because it doesn't show the DLCs so we'll have the same problem. Also, the Steam API doesn't check the DLC ownership so Steamgifts will consider any giveaway from the Arcade Edition as legit.
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I am not an AppID! I am a free game!
Unless cg wants to comment. Then go with what Sooth has said. If I won it I would expect to get the default product on the store page as though I had bought it myself on Steam. Ultimately it is something that should be addressed by cg because the way that Steam and Steamgifts currently handles it is misleading.
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the way that Steam and Steamgifts currently handles it is misleading.
Of course it is. I edited the OP with a similar case: PAYDAY 2. I guess this game was removed for being given free (before the Ultimate Edition was released), so Ultra SFIV should be removed as well (because it was free too before it was upgraded from Arcade to Ultra) but it is neither considered free nor bundled :(
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If I won it I would expect to get the default product on the store page as though I had bought it myself on Steam.
BTW, if you win it and it's the Arcade Edition, mark it as received or you will be suspended. Yes, you'll receive an older version (a different game) without the upgrade and the DLCs, you also will not be able to play online but that's how things work here apparently.
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It's not a different game. Really I don't know how many times I have to explain it, it's not that complicated.
As far as Steam is concerned, there is no game called Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition. That title doesn't exist, because they changed it to Ultra Street Fighter IV.
Your comparison with PAYDAY 2: Ultimate Edition is not correct. If anyone made a giveaway for that, the winner would be expected to receive everything included in the packgage and not just PAYDAY 2.
Giveaways for USFIV are not for the whole package but for just the game (which, I will say one more time, is SSFIV Arcade Edition confusingly renamed, you will literally not find the words Arcade Edition anywhere on your account if you activate a copy of it), so the winner is not entitled to any more than that.
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It's not a different game. Really I don't know how many times I have to explain it, it's not that complicated.
Of course it is different. If you don't own the Digital Upgrade DLC, and you install the game and run it, you'll run the Arcade Edition (an older version of the game) and you will not be able to play online with Ultra Edition owners. Isn't that enough? No, it's not only a renaming, the developers explained it very well (read the OP). Instead of giving a loyalty discount or a coupon for Arcade Edition owners in order to get the Ultra Edition for $15, they decided to use the same AppID plus a DLC to upgrade, for network compatibility reasons.
As far as Steam is concerned, there is no game called Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition. That title doesn't exist, because they changed it to Ultra Street Fighter IV.
As far as Steam is concerned, there is no game called PAYDAY 2. That title doesn't exist, because they changed it to PAYDAY 2: Ultimate Edition. I own the original PAYDAY 2 and it says "Ultimate Edition" everywhere (see link and attachment). In this case is not so bad because you can play this game online without the DLCs of the Ultimate Edition, it is indeed the same game. But if I win the Ultimate Edition I would expect to receive the DLCs, the same as if I win Ultra SFIV (aka SFIV "Ultimate Edition").
Your comparison with PAYDAY 2: Ultimate Edition is not correct. If anyone made a giveaway for that, the winner would be expected to receive everything included in the packgage and not just PAYDAY 2.
Your comparison with Ultra Edition is not correct. If anyone made a giveaway for that, the winner would be expected to receive everything included in the packgage and not just the base AppID without the DLCs (including the upgrade to Ultra).
Giveaways for USFIV are not for the whole package but for just the game
Wrong. This is the one and only package sold as "Ultra". As a mod in a Steam related website you should, at least, know how the Steam API works and how to query SteamDB. Since August 2014 you can't even buy that "pseudo-Ultra without upgrade to Ultra" edition you're wrongly referring to (apart from grey markets, I'm talking about regular channels like the Steam Store itself or any other official seller).
You're sitting a problematic precedent with your decision about this issue. You are promoting a misleading giveaway as legit. With this behavior, you're exhibiting that you lack the most important attributes a moderator must have: flexibility and common sense. You are just making this website to seem untrustworthy.
Regards.
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Look for Ultra Street Fighter IV in the giveaway list. Do you see /sub/50773/ ? No you don't. It's linked to app/45760/, and that's all you're entitled to get if you win. If you get more, good for you, if not, get the upgrade DLC yourself if you want it.
I was not aware of the title change of Payday 2, but if that's the case, then it would work exactly the same. If there would be a giveaway just for the app, then that's all the winner would be entitled to. If it'd be for the sub, then the winner would be expected to get the DLCs as well.
Also this isn't just my decision. I might the one being publicly discussing it but we have a thread about it in the staff forum and other staff members agree with this.
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If I saw a giveaway for Ultra Street Fighter IV (http://store.steampowered.com/app/45760/) and I won I'd reasonably expect to get what I saw in the Steam store if I clicked on the game icon in the giveaway. Except if somebody made a giveaway for the arcade edition I wouldn't be getting that - I'd be getting less content than in the linked store page. Due to a technicality I'd simply be getting a placeholder in my Steam library that shared an app ID. The answer to the debate is beyond me - but surely you can see how many people would consider that misleading.
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Yes, I understand that one might expect more due to the confusing title change, but the fact is just that you're not entitled to more.
And you would get what is on that page, it would appear as owned, you just wouldn't own any of the DLCs.
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I'm not complaining about how you are choosing to handle this - I don't have a better idea. But I don't understand how you are saying you would get what is on that page. Just because there is indistinguishable app ID (which is obviously a major issue for this site) it does not mean that you are getting the content detailed on the linked store page.
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In that sense I agree with you, you don't get what's described on the page.
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That was my only real point. Beyond that it's a bag of shit and I can't make an argument for a 'right' way of dealing with the issue. Somebody is going to be pissed off whatever you do about it. Good luck!
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But I don't understand how you are saying you would get what is on that page
You obviously don't get what is on that page, that's the reason of this thread, but TempeteJoachim doesn't understand the difference between a Steam Store URL and a sub(scription). And the worst thing is that he refuses to learn from more experienced people like me or Sooth.
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Look for Ultra Street Fighter IV in the giveaway list. Do you see /sub/50773/ ? No you don't. It's linked to app/45760/, and that's all you're entitled to get if you win. If you get more, good for you, if not, get the upgrade DLC yourself if you want it.
That's like if you say: "Look for PAYDAY 2: Ultimate Edition in the giveaway list or in the Steam Store. Do you see sub/184279/ ? No you don't. It's linked to /app/218620/, and that's all you're entitled to get if you win. If you get more, good for you, if not, get the 40 DLCs yourself if you want them."
And it's applicable to almost any GOTY/Complete/Ultimate edition.
That's the evidence I needed to confirm that you don't know how Steam works. I'll try to explain you the basics: Any AppID is attached to a subscription. When you buy a game on the Steam store, or a Steam key in a reseller, you always get a subscription. That sub(scription) includes an AppID (or more) that can be a game and/or a DLC (the DLCs have their own AppIDs too).
A subscription is like a container, like a box. Inside that box you can find a game (a single AppID) or a game with DLCs (several AppIDs). Ultra SFIV is a subscription that includes a game and several DLCs (10 AppIDs in total). There's no Ultra edition with a single AppID since August 2014.
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Of course that's applicable to any GOTY and such. If you win a giveaway for The Witcher 3, not the GOTY, you're not going to complain that you didn't receive the season pass.
I know how Steam works, thanks. When a giveaway is linked to an app, it means the giveaway creator can provide any sub that includes that app. So any sub that includes /app/45760 can be given to the winner.
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I know how Steam works, thanks. When a giveaway is linked to an app, it means the giveaway creator can provide any sub that includes that app. So any sub that includes /app/45760 can be given to the winner.
No, you don't. Every single giveaway is linked to a sub, as any purchase is linked to a sub too. You are getting confused by the Steam Store URLs, but that's not how the Steam API works internally. You can find several GOTY/Complete/Ultimate editions "linked to an app" as you wrongly said because you don't know what are you talking about.
This: http://store.steampowered.com/app/45760
Is the same as this: http://store.steampowered.com/sub/50773
The subscription 50773 includes the same AppIDs you get through the main URL. You can buy the game in both places because when you click on "Add to cart" you are sending this: javascript:addToCart(50773);
You are adding a subscription to the cart. Try with any other game, you don't buy (or win) the AppID, you always buy (or win) a sub(scription). It doesn't matter if it's a key or a direct purchase on Steam, you always get the subscription (the container, the box).
Read again my previous post to understand the basics, you can ask me any doubt you have.
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Every single giveaway is linked to a sub
They are not.
The subscription 50773 includes the same AppIDs you get through the main URL. You can buy the game in both places because when you click on "Add to cart" you are sending this: javascript:addToCart(50773);
You are adding a subscription to the cart.
I realize that, I've more of less said this here.
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I am not an AppID! I am a free game!
Oh, nicely referenced- you get a cookie. :)
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More than likely, yes, but I believe (and someone will correct me if I am wrong) that only CG can manually change pricing in the database, so it may take a while.
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You know, I get that some people think this is a big deal and all,
but has anyone gone over to Knsys' SGTools thread and asked him to remove it from his "Deals" section?
It's probably not helping matters having it on that list.
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That's a completely different issue. If Knsys is linking to grey markets to earn money for his website is totally legit. SG Tools is not Steamgifts.
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Yes but that's a totally different debate. Grey markets are not bad themselves. They are marketplaces like eBay or Amazon. The problem is some people use them for money laundering and to sell keys bought with stolen credit cards but, like in most marketplaces, when they are detected they are banned.
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it's totally legit to give away super street fighter 4 disguised as ultra street fighter 4, as much as it's totally legit that sgtools is allowed to use referrals but no one else does.
i don't see why one decision must be discussed to death and the other rolled out like nothing happened, despite breaking one the most basic rules on sg.
honestly, i don't agree how this issue is handled, but i have no idea how to handle it better.
as much as i don't agree with a lot of stuff on sg, this issue is nothing compared to other exceptions that are made for users and situations. just ignore and move on...
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I understand your point, but the main difference is that you can use Steamgifts without SG Tools. I bet a lot of members from the main page/public giveaways doesn't even visit, use or know SG Tools.
You don't like SG Tools, that's ok, and you are not obliged to use it in order to post private giveaways in the forum or somewhere else, is optional. But the problem here is about Steamgifts itself and the loss of trust related with this decision.
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i only see a problem with rules inconsistencies. sgtools referrals, this sf4 issue, people allowed to register alts to promote their games, and others using bots to post machine-generated content.
all exceptions that cg has allowed, but they are against the rules.
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people allowed to register alts to promote their games
I didn't know that. That would be a good decision only if registered users with developer permissions would not be allowed to enter giveaways. I think we discussed about it some time ago and we agree that most pseudo-developers are really ordinary people getting free keys from real developers to exploit CV in order to enter high level giveaways or to get a spot in any of those "random trading" groups with ratio.
others using bots to post machine-generated content.
I don't get this.
IMHO, there will always be inconsistencies or paradoxes in a big and complex community like this. cg is human too. That's why we should create an alternative to the SG Police, the SG Watchmen :P
Hugs!
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My suggestion is actually something you could do to curb further exploitation, and would probably accomplish more than this endless debate with support.
I have no stake in this. I really don't worry much at all about anyone else's CV, etc.
I'm just passing along the information.
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First of all, sorry if I sounded a little rude, I really appreciate constructive suggestions like yours. The problem here is not about CV, it's about a misleading giveaway. I simply mentioned the low price because that's the reason why we see (saw) several fake Ultra SFIV GAs here.
In any case, it has been added to the bundle list so probably nobody will exploit it anymore.
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No worries, I didn't think you were being rude.
I do think a support ticket would have been a better solution and avoided some of the unpleasantries in the thread, though.
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A support ticket is slower and less effective in a case like this.
Also, I wanted to know support member(s) opinion on this matter and the opinion of the members in general, that's why I opened this thread with a poll instead of opening a ticket.
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bump for hypocrites entering sf4 giveaways and also complaining in this thread. ❤️️
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Nothing at all. It'll probably get retroactively bundled though, I suppose.
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now we need a thread with all the peasants complaining it got bundled! ❤️️
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Oh damn
If I had just spend this 1$ on Dollar rage bundle instead of this it would be 20 CV instead of 4.5
:3
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Most if not all giveaways created for Ultra Street Fighter® IV are really a cheap key ($1 in most grey marketplaces) for Super Street Fighter IV - Arcade Edition. The problem is, when you activate a key for Arcade Edition you get AppID 45760 Ultra Street Fighter IV, so the winner can mark it as received and the system recognizes the giveaway as legit.
The Ultra version includes:
The most important problem isn't the cosmetic DLCs. The real problem is you can't play online without the AppID 301660 (Ultra SFIV Digital Upgrade) and if you win a copy here you will most probably get the Arcade Edition.
My vote is, at least, to add it to the bundle list so there will be less giveaways for the wrong version. If you were wondering why they don't create a GA for the Arcade Edition, the answer is: you can't.
Official statement from the developers:
EDIT: We have a similar example with PAYDAY 2: Ultimate Edition but, in this case, is not in the giveaway list. If allowed, you could create a giveaway with an old key of PAYDAY 2 and the system would recognise it as legit, but the winner would only get PAYDAY 2+3 DLCs instead of PAYDAY 2+40 DLCs.
EDIT 2: Direct proof that they're, in fact, different games.
EDIT 3: Added to the bundle list ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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