Will things solve peacefully
well, as long as the people are unwilling to get rid of the government, the government will stay in power.
you as the people only have two options, live with it or do something against it.
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Yeah, sure, because a bloodbath is always a perfect way out of any shitty situation.
I sure hope this was a distasteful joke on your part and not your actual viewpoint.
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This is a joke right?
Let's assume you can start such nationwide movements all by yourself whenever you want to. A civil war might be the worst thing you can expect to start and what will happen in the end? Maybe US will bring democracy like they did to Iraq?
Of course we won't ever think about what might happen to people involved in the revolution, like they'll get caught, tortured and killed. It won't end there, they'll make sure your family will have a terrible life after you are dead as well.
Easiest solution is emigrating to a better country and living there. Of course it is not so easy either. When you are poor and from a problematic region you are not so welcome in anywhere. You might have an idea looking at a recent example; Syrian refugees are not wanted in Europe and Turkey is being used as a sacrificial refugee camp for the sake of EU...
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Socialism going right again. I'm sorry for you.
I suffer that my fellow countryman in Portugal don't open their eyes to what socialism is, they keep voting the socialist party, the most corrupt party in the country. No matter how many corruption cases or how much damage they do (like destroying the country financially and asking Europe for help), people keep voting them. They don't even look to South America and see what Socialism did and does.
Good luck for Bolivia.
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Socialism bad, yeah. Really tired of these kind of polarizing arguments. If you look at your right party you will see the same corruption. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black
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Remember former PM José Manuel Barroso, the right wing good guy ?
He also fanatically hated socialism. Among other good things he did for your country and the whole EU when he was president of the European Commission, he helped derailing Portuguese economy and helped a bit derailing Greece's economy. He had strong ties with our right wing good guys who happened to govern our country right before the 10-year financial crisis, due to 2008 financial crisis created by Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley. Well, that guy is now non-exec. chairman of Goldman Sachs International.
All in all, there's no good guys when money is involved.
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The fact is I'm not sure if 2008 crisis is really created by banks. I'm more on a causality of another thing.
I have some ideas of other things and some people have some ideas too.
Is subprimes and Lheman Brother only a weak link in planetary system.
Is it possible that other things that aren't money or lobby or politics have influence on our own life?
Today I see some thing that can influence life: meteo and lost of food cause of meteo, energy price and energy depletion (go to International eamnergy agency and search conventional petroleum peak), energy needed to extract minerals, a piece of sand in the global factory on the world. Lot of things are connected and depend of some thing of another place.
Today, for lot of people of science the world can't continue longer like that. The question is what will happend (lot of possibility and lot unknowned) and when?
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You're right about the hidden factors that we tend to leave out of the equation or just misinterpret them. I agree with your point of view, the world simply cannot continue like that, is not just unfair but dysfunctional.
As for the 2008 financial crisis I'm pretty sure the main factor was human greed in any possible flavor, in every possible blend with other pathogenic diseases of money-making ideology (the one that we simply call capitalism).
You might find the movie interesting, if you haven't already watched it: The Big Short (2015)
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The trouble is remove capitalism won't resolve the large part of troubles.
Historacly, I'm pretty sure that witout capitalism, we were never with that technology cause not so many people will do research for nothing.
I reed story of banks (that is given) and influence of religions on it and also on science.
I think that it's possible that there's a connexion.
Questions:
-No capitalism won't resolve climat change(climate change is written for the 20 next years due to the last report. And we don't now all the consequencies), oil peak and dept crisis.
-But capitalism need more and more ressources as on fake money (created by banks by dept so with something on the other side) as on metarials as oil, mineral, steel, ... It also need growth. But it is possible after enegy peak? That why I suppose all countries will going down one after one on long terms by part of things.
So now, we can suppose capitalism isn't the only trouble and we can suppress it without big trouble.
What if? Is the world will be very better? Are African countries will be better with a big desertification on course? Is China can continue development? Is some countries can feed themseves?
I think it were possible, but now it's (probably) too late to change the march of the world.
With growth of population and our needs (as vital and more and more for some) we take more and more pressure on earth an its life. How many fishs remains, how many species, how many place to make food remains, how many forest?
I say that and I'm on a "rich" country, but there's lot of disparities on each countries.
People of my generation don't live better as their parents in majority and my childs will have less than me.
I'm not sure that it will be a physical WWIII, I think that it's an economic war that we live. A war to have the rest of the pieces that remains to maintain a country for some years. But everything is connected and specialised (cause of capitalism yes)
Now, what solution have we? We don't make the world as it is. It was from some people and they aren't still alive I think.
We are enjailled with so few solutions and possibility to act to do solutions.
Maybe, it's possible to do something to limit troubles but with all the people in the world. But I see so many people that doesn't care on anything but their possibiliy to do that they love without thinking of consequencies.
It can be pessimistic but it's that I think of the today's situation.
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God, I'm so sorry. The past decade or so in politics has been such a nightmare across the world. You have my complete sympathy. Stay safe out there.
(And/or join the protests, but try to stay as safe as you can.)
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wow this sucks, and here in Europe unluckily we don't know much about what happens in South America..
I truly hope the best for your nation..
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Maby sound harse every country have some problems if don't like it do something or move away to country where don't find those problems.
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My country is going to hell, apparently
That seems to be the general consensus among the world's population. If you can affect change, struggle for justice. If you cannot, speak out for what is right. If you cannot do that, hate the injustice in your heart, and that is the least of Faith. Never give up your desire for Good, no matter how bad the Evil gets. In the end, victory is with God and those who stand with Him.
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Among people that tend to be in bad mood - probably, among an entire population - definitely no. The world is OK, and the times we're living in are the most calm in human history. Less political news, more sports and socialization, and the life will be brighter.
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It was true for the last ~25 years (maybe betwen 1990-2015), but right now I fear it will be worse. There are way too many countries which seems to turn to the bad side of history, from Hungary, Turkey, Russia to the US, Great Britain, Brasil, the Philippines...
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bad side of history
I don't want to talk about history with such a cliches. For Europe-centered school of thought Xerxes I is an evil tyrant, he tried to conquer the Ponyland, I mean, Greece. For Eastern point of view Ancient Greece (before Alexander) was insignificant, poor, backwards province with poor management.
I am Russian and I am on the right side of history, it's my history, not yours. You have no right to judge us, and neither do liberal journos on the Internet. And every Turk will tell you the same. We have our history, our traditions. Erdogan entered the full-scale Sultan mode because he was turned away by European Union. Same with Putin. He wanted to join NATO and EU, was betrayed (at least he thinks so), and decided to become the Tzar.
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hear, europeans? you are the real core of ruski madness! why do you even still exist, you should have layed down long ago under ruski arse, then maybe (just maybe!) He won't decide to became a Tzar!
behold the brain-shit we have to live along with & mourne our fate
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Wouldn't it be just charming if ive repeated 'wat u say'?
Of course, it's what you get used to in your ruski concentration camp collective farm social institutions, i get it..
Guys! That's why you must resist soviets to death - your children gonna talk in chorus other way.
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I am Hungarian. I saw Putin's side of history, I saw Erdogan's side of history, I see Orbán's side of history. That side don't lead to anywhere else but wars and suffering. I'm not optimistic, I'm sure that I will see a new World War. I'm not sure that I will survive it.
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Nobody can predict the future, future is unpredictable. Remind you, that Putin gained a huge popularity in 00-s not because he started the war, but because he finished it - stopped the islamist intervention from Chechnya to Dagestan, then subdued the semi-independent Chechnya, and then stopped the terror war. I studied in the center of Moscow. A couple of times human bombs exploded where I used to walk every day, on Tverskaya street. At that times Chechens liked to use as human bombs wives of dead islamists. Early 00-s in Moscow. You do not know this. Basically Putin stopped the war that liberal Yeltsin, beloved by the US, started. In majority Russian people hate liberal Yeltsin for all he had done. Not only for starting the first war with Chechnya, but also shooting at the Parliament. Hundreds of people were killed in clashes. It was so liberal.
You're just repeating propaganda tropes you've read somewhere. Life isn't black and white. Also the new World War won't be like previous ones, wars are always different.
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Ah, ever the whining of those in opposition to popular movements of socialism. Morales has been a great leader and representative of the Bolivian people for many years, and we should all pray he shall continue to hold strong against these US-backed plots to delegitimize his democratic election.
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The only answer is a civil war, as dire as that sounds. The PEOPLE need to fight back.
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the people need to rise up and take back the power
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As I am reading, an audit is taking place in your country tomorrow no? To see if everything is alright even international observers are coming. I think is a good step on behalf of the goverment.
Protests are fine, but calling for a civil war as someone pointed out above is crazy and you are out of your minds if you think thats the way to fix things. Coming from Spain, really, is not a good idea.
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And your "He sent his people with dinamite to block the roads to prevent us from getting food." I want to see the source from this incident, as it seems a bit far-fetched to believe it up front
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We (the people protesting) don't agree with the audit because it is between the OAS and the government, it hasn't been a consensus with any other institution nor the people representing the civilians. We don't trust it and we are asking for a total abolition of the elections and a new one.
The ones who are protesting against Evo are encouraging peaceful protests. Sadly, I can's say that from the other side, they go with sticks, dynamite and the president himself is planning to starve us while some group threatens La Paz with cutting their water supply. We want to stay peaceful but the government is showing us as the violent while is their people, mostly, who looks for a fight.
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Do you understand what you're saying? You, those who protest, do not want the audit made by an external organization, not a Bolivian one, about the election. I'm sure that the authoritarian one is Morales and not you who protest "peacefully" for something absolutely wrong. You want the election canceled because you didn't like the result. Very democratic.
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There has been some proof of fraud and we really don't trust the agreement because the terms were set only with the government, not with the people representing us. We don't trust our government, how could we?
Our first demand was a second round and he refused, now we want the whole election cancelled.
Maybe fraud is more democratic to you.
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There is not a fact in any of the things you say, they are opinions, probably nonsense. In all these years the Bolivians have not been abused by Morales, rather the opposite is true. Your group of people is not the judge of what is right or wrong. An international organization is checking. You want new elections just because you also know that you have lost. You want a new opportunity. This is really the opposite of justice. What you want is a fraud.
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But the audit could have included other parties than the government to be a bit more transparent. Why didn't they?
About the fraud proofs, people have presented their proof and asked for explanations which they refused to provide. If they have nothing to hide why to do that? There are altered numbers between the frame the counting was paused and the final results, there are dead people registered to have voted, they were counting the people who didn't vote as a blank vote, which we know is not the same, to add to percentage in some places. It is all very irregular. They could just show us that those accusations are false but thy don't.
And I hate to repeat myself but to block cities so we can't get food seems like an abuse to me.
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+1
Civil disobedience is a duty when your government hijacks the democratic process (which is still unproven in this case because OP only presents a very limited side of the story apparently)
Civil war only leads to death and destruction, and most likely martial laws, military coup and more dictatorship under the guise of public safety.
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I was in Bolivia a couple years back, I remember there were protesters in La Paz setting off sticks of dynamite in the streets. They really startled me until someone told me what was going on. Most of the people I talked to did not like Morales and wanted him out of power. I heard some really funny things about him, like how he tried to increase the birth rate by banning condoms.
Anyhow, I hope you can solve this peacefully without a civil war. It may not be possible, but always best to avoid violence if you can. I would love to come back and visit again, I think my visa there is still good for a few more years. Best of luck to all of you there, salud!
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I will say only one thing: Socialism is a cancer on South America, i will pray for your country, sadly the only way to eliminate this cancer is civil war (the hardest way!) or the population on streets, protest for the true democracy (the best way), have a other way like "the parlament against the president". everybody knows the truth but some people prefers omit.
Venezuela is lost.
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mi advice is...run
you should run away, the ppl in power are in power cuz no one wants to fight em, and they know it..
so when they do fight, its usually late, so...its either a bloodbath till the UN takes some action (Wich does nothing) then the other powers take action (Wich ends with new colonies yay!) and all goes to hell...again
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I'm from Israel, and we have some similar situation, so I can understand a lot of what you said. What I like about the US is that the president (that is sort of equal to what prime minister is in Israel) can only be the same person for 8 years, and after that must be replaced. I think this is way more healthy, as people tend to really change during the years of being in the position, and also usually the winner wins by majority but it's not a huge majority, so there are always so many people unhappy regardless of what the result was, and the 8 years limit gives them hope. I wish same rule would be applied to all of the most powerful positions in goverments of different all countries.
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The problem is the president is only term-limited in the US... if he wants to be.
Let's see how long the current occupant of the White House stays in power.
My point is I agree on term limits but they only work when the people in power are playing by the rules, which is only the case if they're honest and trustworthy, but those are not the ones that need term limits.
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I'm in a similar situation, although not as extreme. In Argentina, a Peronist president won the election (Alberto Fernandez) and he wants to implement policies that are going to lead us into even worse inflation and make our economy even worse. To make it worse, his candidate for vice is Cristina Kirchner who has the Guinness world record for a president with the most corruption cases and criminal investigations against her. We're screwed.
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Stay safe please :(
So much bad happening in the world recently...
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Many countries have the similar problem unfortunately. This person will rull the country until they die. They have made so many unforgettable things that they can't go after that without problems and probably danger for their lives.
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I'm seeing and hearing about more and more countries going up in flames with protests and terrible presidents. This is so sad and concerning, knowing that I'm in a country that can go that way. I'm hoping you are well and your country's situation improves.
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Morales is not the best person in the world, but who is on the other side? Who is hiding among the group of people who protest "peacefully"? The Bolivian Nazis, who are far more real than those of Illinois:
Falange Socialista Boliviana
Despite its leftist-sounding name, it is a far-right party drawing inspiration from fascism. It was the country's second-largest party between approximately 1954 and 1974.
Here who they are.
Here the official announcement of their support to Carlos Mesa.
"Nazi German war criminal Klaus Barbie settled in La Paz in 1951 and shortly afterwards witnessed a march by FSB members. Barbie claimed that the sight of the uniformed, armband-wearing militants giving the Roman salute made him feel at home and he soon sought out leading members of the party and became close to them."
I will always be against all forms of Nazism and fascism. Don't be fooled by the Nazis pretending to want democracy.
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That's where you are wrong, the people who protest. We are not backing up Mesa, it's just people, we don't support any political party. That's why we want a new election, just without Morales. This isn't a protest to give Mesa the power, is to defend democracy. There has been fraud and we aren't getting any answers about our observations.
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I truly understand you desire for truth but, man, you don't live here. You read Wikipedia, which anybody can edit, or international news which won't cover everything, if you want visit https://www.eldeber.com.bo/ with a translator. In my opinion, is imparcial, you can see things from both sides. The government is saying that Mesa is causing violence here which isn't truth. Every authority on our side is constantly asking for peace while they come with sticks, stones and bombs. idk man, I'm kinda tired of you trying to tell me how my country is from wherever you are. Peace and I might not answer you again. If you support a person that wants to starve the nation and call me a nazi, well, that's your way of looking at things.
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My source of privileged information is not wikipedia. I used it because it shows incontrovertibly by citing the source some precise facts. I can read Spanish easily and have already searched for information on "el deber" or "la razón" or other Bolivian media. I read the official government announcements and just recently on "el deber" a new extremely peaceful statement by Morales appeared that I don't think will ever make you die of hunger. None of those who protest will be starved by Morales, neither now nor ever. What you are talking about is false alarmism to spread a false vision of reality.
Morales: “Pido a las hermanas y hermanos que no nos enfrentemos, no nos maltratemos entre bolivianos, somos una familia. Quiero pedir a algunos grupos, políticos y cívicos que no instiguen al odio y al racismo, somos todos bolivianas y bolivianos, somos una gran familia”.
Source: El deber
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Yeah, words are words, let's quote the person who lead the strike in my city:
Camacho: “Hace poco abalearon al hijo del presidente cívico de Montero, no podemos matarnos entre bolivianos, pero también tengo la certeza que le podemos dar fortaleza, no queremos muertos, cada uno de ellos representa la libertad y la democracia de nuestros pueblos y no queremos más muertos y que el mundo entero sepa que esta es la pelea contra un régimen que busca sangre y sangre entre bolivianos”
"Se me caen las lágrimas porque no es un tema de hijo de quien sea, es un boliviano más que está en las calles defendiendo la libertad, la democracia".
We are also against the violence and we didn't started it.
About, the "false alarmism", the blocks are real. I'm not saying we're gonna starve, I'm saying that's his intention.
Morales words: “Más bien las ciudades dejen de perjudicar con paro, si quieren paro no hay problema, lo vamos acompañar con cercos en las ciudades para hacernos respetar, a ver si aguantan”.
And so they did, they blocked the roads and did it with no less than dynamite.
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I keep saying that you don't know what you're talking about. Facts count, not words. Who is Luis Fernando Camacho? A good person? He doesn't look like a good person, as he is also linked to the Panama papers scandal: la época
Avoiding taxes means stealing from all citizens, stealing from the Bolivians in the case of Camacho. Camacho is a dishonest, a criminal who should be in jail, one who really for his own interest would let the whole of Bolivia starve, but instead you and those like you are following him, you are helping a genuine criminal, you are accomplices. Congratulations.
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Your protests are unfair and violent. An international organization is monitoring the results and protests are continuing because they are just an excuse to attack a government that you don't like. I am in favor of popular demonstrations, but I believe that behind yours are hidden very different intentions, intentions against the good of Bolivia itself. When there will be someone better than Morales available, the change is good, but Camacho and company are bad people. In every part of the world governments act against violent protests. May they be right or wrong manifestations. it is a right to protest, but not just to achieve a hidden purpose.
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There is no proof that they used dynamite against you, and I would like to remind you that unfortunately in Bolivia it has been legalized using dynamite charges at union protests at the request of the mining sector, this does not mean it is right. Two people have already died, they were shot, and their deaths are very suspicious and, reading the government's announcements, I believe that Morales is not involved. But on this I prefer to wait for the conclusion of the investigation and see if it is one of the famous frames for which the extreme right is known throughout the world. I would also like to remind you that while Mesa was vice president and his government repressed the protests about the Bolivian gas conflict there were dozens of deaths. You should be glad that it is not the Mesa government suppressing your protest.
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I don't judge a person for what they say they are, I judge them for what they do. If a person acts and defends the same things that the Nazis do, he is a Nazi or something very similar to that. They will never be on the right side of the story. If you are not one of them stop supporting their thinking, because if you are not one of them and help them unwittingly it means that you are not very intelligent. Excuse my frankness but there is no third option.
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And just to show once again that everything you claim is false or you don't know the country in which you live, el deber is not an impartial newspaper, but is a right-wing newspaper against the government, as you can read in this summary free available on "le Monde diplomatique" (it is not wikipedia): Le Monde diplomatique
"El Deber representa a la derecha regional cruceña".
Please stop talking bullshit.
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I'm sad for you. To help you, I can say that the world is going in this direction if you looking further.
It's not cause of you or the population, it's a slow collapse of every coutries in the world.
Today, I can say that my courtry is no longer the "country of the human rights". Police were fighting 2 weeks ago against firemen on strike and press, they doesn't care who you are : gaz and Flashball are falling.
So take care of you. Try to find a community to help each others and continue to alert as you doing it.
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Have you heard of Bolivia? Yes! the country with no access to the sea.
Well, if you are unaware of what's happening, Evo Morales "won" the elections.
Thing is, for starters, he's been president for thirteen years, which is unconstituional. This year, however, it is worse because some years ago there was a referendum to decide if he was allowed to run for president once again and the results were no. He didn't care and still ran for it.
Now, back to the past Sunday (the 20th), when the counting of votes was at 83% the results showed that there was going to be a ballotage, but the counting was stopped with no explanation to resume the day after to show an unusual increase in the votes for Evo and declare him winner with no need for a second round.
Of course, people are mad, we don't want him as president any longer, no one should have the power for so long so some cities engaged a civic strike. We are protesting peacefully for democracy and what was his answer? He sent his people with dinamite to block the roads to prevent us from getting food.
And I feel like this is just the beginning…
So, yeah, have some stuff.
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