Will things solve peacefully
Reading some of the replies this thread has gotten is quite sad. There are a considerable number of users writing their opinions without doing any kind of research and just trusting what a random person says on the internet.
But that's what right leaning people love the most (the whole point of this thread, really): people getting riled up with no idea what they are talking about.
Your replies to nonplusultra's comments are a clear example of where you are coming from. You don't really care whether there was election fraud or not. You don't want Evo Morales as your president, that's why you are complaining. You are not defending democracy, you are placing your personal beliefs over the majority's.
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Yeah I had the same feeling and I looked things up by myself.
I'll be waiting for the result of the audit but people who commit fraud generally don't invite inspection of their fraud.
Things don't seem as clear-cut (and explosive??) as OP seems to be saying.
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This misinformation starting from the OP are off the charts. Morales, along with a powerful movement, has brought so much social progress was forced from office by the military, has genuine support from a majority the people. A Coup is not democracy.
People need to know the full story before believing right wing msm.
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Yeah isn't it brilliant? It's only when a left-wing government is "suspected of fraud" , that the police and military seem to care one way or another. Convenient, isn't it?
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By your logic, the same could be said about Capitalism for the planet and its resources.
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More than 100 millions of deaths, thanks to Communism. Only brings poverty and hunger to the people.
China pollutes more than any other country in the world, so...
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Ah, we are throwing random numbers from The Black Book of Communism? A book made by Stéphane Courtois, Nicolas Werth, and other European academics who is so biased that even two of the book's main contributors, Nicolas Werth and Jean-Louis Margolin, publicly disassociated themselves from Courtois' statements in the introduction and criticized his editorial conduct. Werth and Margolin felt Courtois was "obsessed" with arriving at a total of 100 million killed which resulted in "sloppy and biased scholarship" and faulted him for exaggerating death tolls in specific countries.
A methodology so fake which made even some of the authors criticized it xD
But I can throw number of deaths from capitalist countries too:
-
The first World War erupted thanks, in large part as historians agree, to a global depression. But what caused the Great Depression? Capitalism, the speculative frenzy and inequality of the rip-roaring 1920s. Capitalism poured the fuel of fascism all over the world, in nations like Germany and Italy, who were heavily indebted by that point, and it only took a handful of demagogues to set the world alight. How many people died in World War II?
25 million just soldiers, 50 million including civilians and 80 million including famine, war crimes, and disease. -
Vietnam war. How many died? Another 2.5 million, roughly. Before that, though we don’t discuss it much today, was the Chinese civil war, in which America and Soviet Russia fought by proxy. How many died? About 8 million.
-
Ah right, colonialism too, capitalist countries seeking cheap labour and raw materials from Africa, India and undeveloped countries.
In the Congo alone, 10 million died as a legacy of King Leopold of Belgium’s brutal rule. In India, conservatively, a million people died, as the nation fractured when colonialism ended, another indian sources estimate 35 million.
Congo, still exploited today for its natural resources by, wait for it, capitalism: rubber, diamonds, metals, some of which are probably in your smartphone. They had another war, in the 21st century, which killed 5 million. -
We should also count all the deaths from: 5 years of drone strikes used to maintain US military dominance in the Middle East for the purpose of securing trade routes and oil reserves; Syrian Civil War caused by the US’ funding of Syrian rebels as well as the terrorist organization Al Nusra in an attempt to overthrow the Syrian government; The War in Iraq which was for the sake of gaining oil controlling petroleum exports; the wars in Afghanistan and Pakistan; Korean War to “beat Communism” and maintain dominance in Asia; or the nuclear bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
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Even deaths by systemic poverty: Studies performed by Canadian researches Gernot Kohler and Norman Alcock published under the title “An Empirical Table of Structural Violence” found that 18,000,000 people die each year due to systemic poverty.
Soooo
now we’re at much more than 100 million, man. And that’s still conservative, because there are many, many wars, proxy wars, colonial empires, and massacres that we haven’t counted.
- (Or even more important the extintion of species: flora and fauna for the unstoppable explotation of recources all over the world which I didn't even mention).
When people say Communism kills!, its easy to think as Capitalism being something like a religion, pure, with no blood on its hands. But its hands are just as flawed and imperfect as others.
But the point isn't just scoring. Its to think critically about these systems and with no biases. And also to not blindly believe all the information you are getting.
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Seems like communism haters have a special feelings towards 100 million. Solzhenitsyn also said about 100 million of victims in USSR only (lol), of course this assessment was based on nothing. By this logic, when we count unborn children of unborn children, China can declare 200-300 million deaths from Japan occupation, and Japan is capitalistic.
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Hate to break it to you, but the world has massively realized that communism and fascism are equally destructive. See the latest EU declaration on the subject.
Also, WW1 was caused by the depression that ocurred 10 years after it ended? That's not how time works... WW2 started by almost the same reason as WW1. A rise of nationalism. Which goes hand in hand with communism.
Remember, people never jumped to the red side of the Berlin wall, there are no rafts going from Miami to Cuba, and no Colombians are running head first to see the benefits of Maduro's regime.
Think critically and with no biases.
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As I pointed out, communism and fascism are not equally destructive. Communism was based on equality and social justice, letting the uneducated majority bloom in their society giving them free health care and free education, which a lot of socialist countries ended copying. And also lets remember that we have to thank the Urss for stopping Germany from conquering all Europe.
Do I defend all the atrocities Stalin and the URSS made in their country and others? No, not now, nor never. They were also obsesed with nationalism which I consider very silly.
But comparing it to fascism? No, I cant even mention one single good thing about it, it just benefits an elite.
Also, about Germany, the communist politicians from the RDA recicled themselves in the Die Linke, which got 4 million of votes on the past elections, and is voted specifically on East Germany, the previous RDA.
http://www.viewsoftheworld.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/BTW2017_ElectoralMap_Linke_Large.png
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So what? Hitler was also elected. Does that legitimize everything he did?
Also, I did not make the comparison between communism and fascism. EU did. Which you must admit, know a little bit about both...
Either way, I admit my defeat. A communist brain is a tough nut to crack, being highly trained since childhood to use the catchphrases, blind rhetoric and they so love while they disregard facts, data and reality. Modern day keynesians, marxist and the like haven't got the slightest clue about what they said and I refuse to keep engaging with you. Please keep defending your lord and saviour the president/king/prime minister/fuhrer.
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I was going to answer you normally and do a serious reply, but after that last paragraph I just couldn't help to chuckle. Well, I made my arguments based on facts and you barely argued any of the points I made. If you base your points in acusations and arguments Ad hominem, then do it, but you expose yourself.
You couldn't do more generalizations even if you tried lol, so I am not going to bother replying anymore
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At least from the point of view of the country, that in 1939 has been occupied by both Nazi Germany and Communist Russia, those 2 occupations, though quite different in focus of repressions, were very much equally tragic and murderous experience.
Simplifying, out of necessity, Germans were set on exterminating all Poles of Jewish origin and terrorizing the population by the extermination of part of intelligentsia, while Russians were set on exterminating the whole intelligentsia, except some of those, that were willing to deeply collaborate with them, and on terrorizing the rest of the population by exterminating the large part of it.
So, yes, from the point of view of majority of Poles, both those regimes have been seen as similarly murderous. Actually, I have personally spoke with many quite random survivors of both of those occupations. Those of them, that were only under German occupation during the war and met Russians only after we have been "liberated" by them were indeed tempted to agree with the quite famous poem from 1944 "what an irony, that we have to be thankful to the red plaque for liberating us from the black death". However the wast majority of those, that have been under Russian occupation between September 1939 and June 1941, were saying that overall they have felt much safer and more humanly treated under Nazi, than under Communist occupation.
I would argue, that except of the tragic and never to be forgotten Holocaust of Polish Jews, the Nazi repressions against the population of almost fully uncollaborating and largely resisting Poland have been quite similar to Communist repressions in the first first period after the end of WWII, which ended in 1953-1956, and which was much less severe, than 1939-1941 period.
As for the argument, that "we have to thank the Urss for stopping Germany from conquering all Europe", I can only say, that have war been won by Nazis, I'm quite sure, that the opposite argument would be used today as often, as this one is. Communists were not fighting to prevent Europe from being conquered, but were fighting for both their own survival and for the chance to conquer themselves as big part of Europe, as they were able to... in which goal they were quite successful. Not only countries in large part forced by Nazis to support them, like Hungary, Romania and Bulgaria, but even semi-occupied parts of Europe, like Vichy France, had more autonomy, than those, that were "liberated" by communist and later enrolled in the Warsaw Pact (at least until 1953-1956).
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Don't ever speak for entire world, 99% of the time you represent only yourself. Communism and nazism are not equal. I am not defending bolsheviks and Stalin, I am saying this is false and those who proclaim it have their long term political interests. Nazism was condemned in Nuremberg, communism not. We have at least two successful communist countries - China and Vietnam, and this is against them, it can be used in economical wars. Also it's targeting Russia's sovereignty, because many border changes were under Stalin.
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Yes, Nazis have been condemned in Nuremberg and Communists have not. However, has it been really caused by the fact, that (for example) extermination of practically all Polish officers, policemen and border guards captured by Communists in 1939 has not been a war crime and a crime against humanity, or has it been caused by fact, that Nazis have lost the war and Communists have been on the winning side?
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And about your statement of Communism "Only brings poverty and hunger to the people."
Im not going to defend their atrocities, but about the URSS
- In the 50 years from 1913 to 1963, despite the two World wars, foreign intervention, civil war and other calamities, their industrial production grew 52 times. The EEUU in that time only 6 times and Britain merely 2 times. In other words, in just a few decades, thanks to a planned economy, the URSS transformed itself from a agricultural and undeveloped economy to the 2º most powerful country on the world, with a powerful industrial base, a rich culture and more scientists than EEUU and Japan together.
Some facts too: - The population grew a 15% percent and the number of technicians multiplied by 55.
- The number of students working full time multiplied too per 6.
- The hospital beds per 10; the children treated in day-care center per 1.385
- The life expectancy duplicated and the mortality of children reduced to a ninth part.
- The houses rent was fixed at 6% of the workers' month income.
- Universal free health care for everyone
Looking at just objective numbers in history books you can see that the Urss did not bring poverty or hunger, in fact, the total opposite. Its the capitalism which is based in the search of profit, inequality and explotation. Most of the everyday things you use like phones, clothes, computers, etc are that cheap because companies relocate to other countries to explotate workers there.
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Wow, wall of text. And just rambling for a tie.
1 & 2.- People dies in wars? amazing, I would never have imagined. But to die in a "normal" situation like in communism, I think that's worse.
2.- I will love to read how many people died in China's factories because the same cheap labour, bad healthy conditions and pollution.
3.- And how many people died in North Korea thanks to re-education camps and famine?.
4.- Deaths by poverty? How about 1921 and 1932 russian famine? lots of deaths, again, thanks to communism.
5.- 99% of the species on Earth are extinct. And not because human actions.
Anyway, I prefer the freedom of speech and be able to do anything I want. Can you do that in communism? No.
Can you tell me any country where communism has been successful without people dying because the regime? Cuba? Venezuela?
PS.- Communism: politics system. Capitalism: economic system.
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I'm not fond of communism but there's literally never been one government that was actually communist.
Anybody can use whatever label they want to oppress people, and really in the case of Bolivia, I don't see what it has to do with it.
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Boi here in Argentina Evo Morales' best friends won the elections.
We're so fucked.
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Right, we should have re elected the guy that turned our currency from 1/9 of a dollar to 1/60 of a dollar...
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Well, frankly IDGAF.
Your president is going to destroy the country; hyperinflation or a brutal adjustment. And knowing he'll default the debt, it's probably going to be the first; either way we're going Venezuela's way.
Also, great job voting one of South America's most corrupt politicians as your vice-president, a marxist dwarf as Buenos Aires' governor, and filling the presidential cabinet with many stained names in politics. Also, great job voting impunity for all of these politicians, who'll release terrible people such as Milagros Salas from jail, and also very nice job voting for a government who is going to do nothing about narcotraffic, and in fact, is going to use it to their advantage.
But well, it's all about having money in our pockets right? It's all about "death to neoliberalism" and "legalize abortion", right? It's the same old saying of "They were corrupt but at least they did something", isn't it?
We deserve 500 years of poverty.
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Delirious.
Seriously, you are so full of hatred that you are just spewing everything that the right wing says.
Do something simple search on google for two things: the price of our currency and the minimum salary for each Latin American country through time. That's some hard data about our economy and how the vicepresident you hate improved our economy while your dearest neoliberal ruined it.
Nice of you to mention Milagro Salas, you mean the woman that was sent to prison for three years without a trial? (I know she's now meant to serve 13 years but imprisoning someone before a fair trail isn't something I would be proud of)
I also love how you include abortion rights as a negative. You are just a perfect model of a neoliberal voter. Sadly, you probably won't even consider searching for information before making an opinion. Luckily, your way of thinking is slowly dying.
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Los 2 tienen razón, estamos entre los inutiles y unos corruptos. A eso hay que sumarle la justicia que va para donde le conviene y la "viveza criolla" del argentino promedio. Necesitamos otro 2001 para despertar y tener un "que se vayan todos", colgar unas cuantas cabezas en la plaza y que los políticos billonarios se vayan bien a la puta que los pario.
Igual no creo que vaya a cambiar nada, somos un pais de cuarta con gente de mierda.
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I'm from Russia. Thank You for spoilers for our 2021)
Political theory tells us that hybrid regimes like ours are not so strong and united as we see them.
And our world became less violent in last century so the big violence against civils is not the way to make protests less supported. It works in another side - when people see that the bombs are regime's last argument, it comes to the end.
If You can, stay not violent. It helps
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Here I am walking in and looking at people defend Morales and Bolsonaro to the limit, people never learn what extremism conveys. It's hard to tell how a country government is really like from the information on the media as different groups manipulate it to their whim, but for what I can tell Morales is just another authoritarian leader from left, at least the economy in Bolivia seems to be stable and not like Venezuela. Hope someday people will dish their right and left elites and there is a true government from the people.
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If it makes you feel any better: The world is probably going to hell too.
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Should the President of Bolivia be arrested for inciting a revolution?
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Hey OP, al parecer aún hay gente decente en Bolivia que no quiere a Evo de dictador. Me alegro por todos los ciudadanos que no desean vivir una dictadura como la de Venezuela y Cuba.
Fuerza!
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You did it.
The last news tell to me that Bolivia achieved the freedom.
Congratulations to all Bolivian people.
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Yes!
I'm still sceptical but we're making progress
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lol yeah a military coup d'etat usually spells freedom of the people.
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Which military coup d'etat?
Evo Morales resigned at the people's presion.
I hope that happen in my country Venezuela soon and if you want we send to Maduro as a gift.
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Look, I don't condone his abuse of power, like changing the term limit and IF there has been election tampering, there should be new elections, sure. However when the military tells a president to resign, it's a coup. Doesnt matter what the reason is.
I would call it a coup whatever country it happens in and whoever is deposed, even if it was Trump.
The military "asking" for the president's resignation is not a win for democracy. It's just another failure.
I really do hope new elections are organized and soon but I'm not holding my breath.
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The only failure in democracy is a dictator trying to stay in power, neverless the people saying no.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Bolivian_constitutional_referendum
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Ojalá empecemos a importar huevos desde Bolivia que andamos escasos acá. 🥚
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We too have people, who are winning the presidential and parlamentar runs. Tbh, they win legitemately, but they are using stupid and naive old people with pretending they are so religious, yet they just spread hatred. They "gave" people money... but they stole it from somewhere else. But they just want to keep giving money to people who will vote for them next time. And they recently won too. They are very aggresive towards literally everything. European Union? Bad! How dare they say bad things about us! NATO? Also bad. USA!? BAD BAD! Everyone who dares to tell they are doing bad things, are greatly disrespected and hated. Maybe You heards about political party called Prawo i Sprawiedliwość (Law and Justice in english) in Poland. They were doing many things, the world heard of. Very shameful things. But they are pretending to be good catholics, to lure old people and giving money to lure greed people. But they also give money to themselves. And when it was criticized, the prime minister yelled WE DESERVE THIS MONEY! It's really bad. Because they give bonuses to themselves. Also all the high places at different jobs (well paid jobs) are used by them. And they literally ruined everything they touched. For example a horse studfarm , that was in very good condition. One of them was selected to rule there and... what happened next? The horse stud farm that prospered amazingly great for years was ruined completely... it's really sad, what they are doing. Not to mention, they literally break constitutional rules. They don't respect anything and anyone, except if this is for them, not against them.
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Against a dictatorship? Nah, commies are sad. Free people of Latin America is happy about this.
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You cannot fight for democracy with a coup d'etat.
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Yo cannot have democracy with a dictator like Morales
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You can't avoid dictatorship, by installing another (worst) dictatorship
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And who is that dictator? Bolivia will have new presidential elections. Don't spread fake news
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What elections? Bolivia is a mess right now, with camacho leading, and incarcerations, fires and chaos. Have you stopped watching?
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That's why I say "will have new presidential elections". The fire and chaos are by Maduro's followers.
Anyway, this could be have been avoided if it wasn't for Evo's craving for power. So long, lefties!
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It is clear that democracy is the last thing in their interest. They wanted to remove evo at any cost. The price will be too high, sadly.
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You understand why the people wanted to remove Evo?
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The conflict cannot justify a coup. Here in latin america we have awful precedents with this kind of "transitions"
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That's not my question. If you answer it, everything will be clearer.
It's not a coup. Evo resigned by his will.
Anyway, I guess you're happy now with Fernandez as president. Sadly, that's another leftie goverment that will create hunger and poverty.
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Evo resigned to avoid the bloodshed. Threatened by the army and the police.
You don't know me, so let's discuss facts.
Facts like that there is no evidence of fraud, only suspicions, factoids and conspiracy theories
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGrHQIOhLb8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLmuZ65yn2s
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There is no point debating with pripkun, he is not going to reason with facts or anything.
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You want facts? Here are:
1.- 2016 Bolivian referendum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Bolivian_constitutional_referendum
Did Evo acted according to the referendum? Nope, he wanted to stay in the power at any cost (like any communist politician, of course)
2.- Manipulated results: https://www.clarin.com/mundo/auditoria-oficial-concluyo-elecciones-bolivia-viciadas-nulidad-_0_4l0Y1dJ6.html
But no, this is a coup and Evo Morales isn't a dictator! (will say a commie like you).
Facts xD
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¿Clarin? ¿Where is the OEA report?, ¿The one with the evidences I mean?
They said "irregularities"
And not a single proof of fraud.
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Still no proof, only skewed interpretations of data not shown.
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Stop lying, in the PDF file is all the data needed. Even says "forgery of signatures and alteration of records" - page 7.
So, no fraud? Please.
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Venezuela y Cuba diseñaron el fraude electoral en Bolivia
No hay fraude xD
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Obvio que no hay fraude querida.
Hay muertos, eso si. Y no hay elecciones libres, eso también.
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The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is an economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C. which was co-founded by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot. It has been described as left-leaning.
Left-leaning... Left-leaning
Ahora pon la fuente del partido comunista diciendo que fue un golpe de estado xD
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Me faltó agregar que tú fuente es un resultado estadístico de simulaciones realizadas por ellos mismos. No tiene ningún análisis de la situación real del FRAUDE realizado por Venezuela y Cuba en las elecciones bolivianas.
Buen intento zurdo, pero no sirve 😂
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Con los kirchneristas no se discute, hay que ignorarlos.
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De defender un golpe de estado no se vuelve. Sin importar el signo político.
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Y los traumas que deja en una sociedad el padecer una dictadura no sanan jamás.
Hay que ver como termina todo, pero si logran estabilizar la situación, desde mi punto de vista lo hicieron bien y a tiempo.
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Cuánta razón. Incluso con documentos de la OEA, sigue afirmando que no hay pruebas. Una locura.
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Today Is a great day for bolivia, your country is now a democracy!
Only the people united saves your country.
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well, the bad part is starting. Morale's people is causing violence, burning houses, etc. let's hope we don't actually go to hell as my title suggest
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Sadly the same was happen on Brazil, the other side is try to create this caos cause the leader is gone,but the army is ready to do any action right now, these anarchists will be on jail. Keep calm and i hope that this hard days will be gone, most of your people is now on the democracy side, next step is the vote.
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What a disaster
Members of the military "suggest" the president to resign right when he was calling elections... today!
They are taking over. There are illegal detentions, members of the government and the Supreme Tribunal are being arrested by the military , kidnappings and even burning of houses.
It's a military dictatorship!
Human rights organizations in my country are already speaking against this terrible strike against democracy... not that they can do much about it, from here except support the previous constitutional government. This is a blow against constitutional rights and black stain that shall remain in Bolivia. I hope they can quickly restore democracy and call elections... quickly!
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What do you mean with illegal detentions? Fraud has been proved, they must go to jail.
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The Party for Socialism and Liberation strongly condemns the military coup in Bolivia, and extends our solidarity to the Bolivian people who are struggling to defend the massive gains won under the leadership of President Evo Morales in the face of this counter-revolution. U.S. imperialism is clearly the sponsor of the coup and we are outraged at this crime against Bolivian sovereignty and democracy.
The goal of the coup is to restore the absolute authority of the Bolivian elites who rule as clients of the United States. They despise the country’s Indigenous majority and want to eviscerate the rights of the working class.
The coup also has a clear regional significance. Progressive and revolutionary forces have been on the march over the past year. President López Obrador’s new government in Mexico committed itself to non-interference in the sovereign affairs of the nations of Latin America. Venezuela defeated the U.S.-backed coup attempt of Juan Guaidó. An uprising in Ecuador forced the government to flee the capital city and cancel an IMF-imposed austerity package. An ongoing rebellion in Chile has brought historic crowds into the streets and put the right wing government of Sebastian Piñera on the defensive despite vicious repression by the police and military. The right wing government in Argentina was voted out of office in favor of the progressive Alberto Fernández-Cristina Fernández presidential ticket. And immediately preceding the Bolivian coup, wrongfully imprisoned ex-President Lula was freed.
The Bolivian ruling class and their military are following the dictates of the U.S. government, which has worked overtime to turn back the leftwing tide sweeping Latin America.
Upon assuming the presidency in 2006, President Morales nationalized the country’s oil and gas wealth. This wealth was used to meet the needs of the people and promote economic development. Morales’ Movement for Socialism (MAS) drew its support from the working class of Bolivia, whose population is majority Indigenous, and transformed Bolivia from one of the poorest countries in the world to the fastest-growing economy in the region. Evo Morales is the first Indigenous President in the history of Bolivia, and his presidency has posed a challenge to the racist ruling elite by empowering the Indigenous majority culturally and economically.
The battle in Bolivia and all of Latin America continues between the forces that want to empower the people and those that want to restore the power and wealth of the elite. People in the United States can play an important role in this intense struggle by pressuring our imperialist government to end its war on the people in Latin America and the Caribbean. U.S. hands off Bolivia!
Sorce:
https://www.liberationnews.org/psl-statement-we-condemn-military-coup-us-hands-off-bolivia/
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Perspective will of course skewer all views. Which is why I posted one more aligned to mine.
A separate, purely statistical, analysis of the results by the Center for Economic and Policy Research revealed no irregularities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_government_resignation
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I literally just saw TODAY how much GOOD he did for your country?
So.... WTF?
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Congrats on the intermediate victory! I just hope that you're moving in a correct direction and not to another dictatorship.
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Same for Germany. Many citizens are leaving the country.
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Sounds like he'd be right at home within the current British government.
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Bueno, Sadwich, supongo que estás de fiesta, y con razón. Felicidades por el avance. Saludos de Venezuela :D
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Ahora los conservadores ya se han hecho con el poder con el golpe de estado militar, despues de que los segundos de Evo tambien los hicieran "dimitir". Convocarán elecciones o ya con el golpe de estado les vale para ejercer el poder?
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los militares no se involucraron sino hasta el último momento y solo sugirieron que renuncie para mantener la paz. no hay ningún golpe de estado, evo y el TSE manipularon las elecciones, por lo que no son válidas y deben ir presos. claro que va a haber nuevas elecciones, es lo que venimos pidiendo.
evo nos acusa de golpistas, racistas y violentos mientras manda gente armada contra la población que protestó pacíficamente todo este tiempo. no sé de dónde sos hermano pero no tenés idea de lo que está pasando acá.
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Ya habían convocado a nuevas elecciones. Evo todavía es presidente constitucional. Esto es un golpe de estado que impide a un mandatario concluir su mandato. La solución debe ser democrática. No les importa la democracia, dado que ni se ha hablado de elecciones, ni la OEA condenó la toma del poder por los aliados opositores cívico-militares. Esto es un golpe de manual, orquestado por estados unidos. Lástima que el pueblo boliviano se quedó entrampado en el medio.
Pero nadie puede festejar esto. Es un atropello a la democracia.
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Ya que pediste pruebas del fraude y te las entregué, ahora te pido pruebas de que tu supuesto golpe de estado fue orquestado por Estados Unidos.
Documentos oficiales por favor, tal cual cómo los que te envié. Espero atentamente tu respuesta.
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Veo que andan tristes los comunistas hoy. Cayó Evo y Vox fue tercera mayoría en las Elecciones generales en España.
No me sorprende que anden vueltos locos tratando de defender su ideología asesina en foros.
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Yo ni soy comunista ni defiendo lo que hiciera la URSS. Te lo habré dicho mil veces. Lo que si soy es antifascista y tu viendo como te alegras por el golpe de Estado y por el auge de Vox, habrá que concluir que de hecho, eres un buen perro fascista.
Lo que hiciera Stalin no se que tiene que ver con que el comunismo sea asesino, asi como los atentados contra los derechos humanos de Estados Unidos no representan al capitalismo. Nadie llama al capitalismo un regimen asesino no? No es muy dificil de entender.
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Comunista llorando, sigue así. Defiendes un regimen asesino que jamás, JAMÁS, en toda la historia de la humanidad, ha traído ni un poquito de prosperidad al pueblo, ese con el cual se llenan el hocico. Muerte, destrucción, hambre.
Comunismo = cáncer, ahora y siempre
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Te copio mi propio comentario que te puse hace semanas:
In the 50 years from 1913 to 1963, despite the two World wars, foreign intervention, civil war and other calamities, their industrial production grew 52 times. The EEUU in that time only 6 times and Britain merely 2 times. In other words, in just a few decades, thanks to a planned economy, the URSS transformed itself from a agricultural and undeveloped economy to the 2º most powerful country on the world, with a powerful industrial base, a rich culture and more scientists than EEUU and Japan together.
Some facts too:
The population grew a 15% percent and the number of technicians multiplied by 55.
The number of students working full time multiplied too per 6.
The hospital beds per 10; the children treated in day-care center per 1.385
The life expectancy duplicated and the mortality of children reduced to a ninth part.
The houses rent was fixed at 6% of the workers' month income.
Universal free health care for everyone
Basicamente fueron los primeros en crear el Estado del bienestar del que disfrutamos los paises socialistas en Europa y Latinoamerica ahora: sanidad publica, educacion, sistema de pensiones...
"JAMÁS ha traído ni un poquito de prosperidad al pueblo" xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD Ahi lo tienes
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Podras decir que Stalin fue un personaje tan oscuro como Hitler y que la URSS hizo barbaridades, pero que el comunismo en la URSS dio un monton de prosperidad al pueblo de Rusia y produjo muchos avances sociales no se puede negar. Sobre todo si lo comparas a de donde venian, con la monarquia zarista
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I think you meant millions?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin#Forced_settlements_in_the_Soviet_Union_1939-53
And that's not including the forced labor and deaths of German POWs and civilians.Or the mass graves discovered at NKVD camps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_in_the_Soviet_Union
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Yeah, I comdemn the crimes made by the URSS and Stalin, as everyone. The problem is, if you think all the deaths from the URSS are also attributable to the communism, then all the deaths perpetrated by all the capitalist states, Usa specially, are also attributable to capitalism. By that logic, capitalism is a murderous system as there is a ton of killing from those countries too.
Saying communism is a murderous system, as pripkun is repeating like a broken record on every comment, is as silly as saying capitalism is murderous, and noone is saying that. I didn't see anything in the Communist Manifesto about killing at all, more like the contrary.
Countries or persons applying those systems can be murderous, not the system per se.
And another problem with persons like pripkun, is that they really dont care about the dead ones, is just a number to use to attack people that don't think the same as him politically speaking. Telling him about the the 40 years of dictatorship in Spain he said "Gracias por tu lección de historia, aunque eso no me va ni me viene." which translates as "Thank you for the history lesson, but that doesn't matter to me." Basically he is looking down on all the deaths from that regime. A surprise that he doesnt comdemn those deaths, when he was using those "deaths from communism".
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I'm not here to take sides with either of you. You pointed out the great strides that were made in the Soviet Union towards modernization, industrialization and overall standard of living,while pripkun pointed out the great cost of that progress (though he understated it). You're both correct, though neither of those assertions proves anything one way or another about communism, only about the USSR's version of it.
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Hablas de Latinoamerica como si vivieras acá. Seguramente eres el típico español que vive gracias a las ayudas sociales del Estado.
Que sea gratuito no significa que sea de buena calidad.
- De qué sirve tener sanidad pública si es de mala calidad? En Venezuela dan cursos express para ser médicos, cero formación real. Ni siquiera tienen insumos para atender a la población.
- De qué sirve tener educación gratuita si es de mala calidad? En las pruebas PISA, Chile es el referente de la región (país neoliberal según tus estándares, no socialista). El que le sigue? Uruguay. Bolivia y Venezuela? Ni siquiera participaron.
- Sistema de pensiones: Todas deficientes, según la Cepal.
El estado de bienestar se financia mágicamente? No, con los impuestos de todos los habitantes. No gracias al comunismo, si no que gracias al capitalismo.
Deberías salir un poquito de tu zona de confort y altura moral antes de hablar con tanta soltura. El comunismo te está matando el cerebro.
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"típico español que vive gracias a las ayudas sociales del Estado." Me criticas por hablar de Latinoamerica sin vivir ahi (que puedo leer periodicos e informarme igual) y procedes a encasillarme en un perfil de persona que tienes tu en tu cabeza sin conocerme de nada. No creo que te des cuenta de la contradiccion en la que has entrado, pero eres un genio tio, tu nivel discursivo es brillante.
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Dedícate a regalar más juegos, comunista. Mira que al parecer solo vienes a leechear acá.
Es muy fácil ser comunista con la plata de los demás.
Besos.
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Ah, y respecto al documento, Europa desde siempre ha estado aliada con EEUU y nunca ha dicho nada sobre sus canalladas. Ha estado contra el comunismo y Rusia enfrentado siempre. El profundo anticomunismo se puede ver en la mayoria de publicaciones y autores en Europa y en la oligarquia del pasado miedo a un sistema que daba tanto poder al pueblo y tantas comodidades.
Menciona el Pacto Molotov-Ribbentrop entre la URSS y Alemania, un pacto de no agresión. Que claro que es mas que condenable, pero no cambia el hecho de que Rusia fue el principal adversario de Hitler y su mayor amenaza en Europa.
Y siendo español, un dato sobre pactos. No se me olvida que durante el golpe de estado de Franco y la posterior guerra civil, Francia y Inglaterra dejaron a la Republica en la estacada, firmando un pacto de no intervencion que sellaria el destino de la republica, mientras Hitler y Italia apoyaban al bando sublevado con armas, tropas y de todo. La Urss fue la que ayudo con tropas y armas a la republica, pero ni siquiera Francia dejaba pasar mucha de la ayuda por su frontera. Y pocas veces se da aqui el reconocimiento que se merecen las brigadas internacionales que intentaron detener al fascismo.
Pero claro, estas cosas no se dicen mucho en los libros de historia. Gracias a ese pacto nosotros tuvimos 40 años de dictadura ante la pasividad de esos dos paises super progresistas. Francia e Inglaterra eran conservadores y como no estaban de acuerdo con la Republica española, mejor dejarlos morir. Esa traicion historica a ver si se condena tambien en la Union Europea.
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El fascismo es igual de dañino que el comunismo que tanto defiendes. Ser antifascista y comunista es una contradicción en si mismo. Con razón tienes tanto odio en tu corazón.
Comunismo = cáncer, ahora y siempre
Gracias por tu lección de historia, aunque eso no me va ni me viene.
Besos zurdosos =*
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Asi que la dictadura franquista "no me va ni me viene" Ah, ya veo que solo te interesan los muertos y las miserias de un bando. Que sorpresa
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No me va ni me viene porque yo no estuve ahí. Pero nunca he negado muertos y atrocidades. No como ustedes, comunistas, que creen que su ideología es perfecta y lo mejor para el mundo. Clásico pensamiento de alguien que no le ha trabajado un día a nadie y vive mantenido.
Besos
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Sacar el comunismo (o Venezuela) en cada oportunidad y ahora los ataques personales. Siempre actuan igual todos los fachas, aqui y alli, o es cosa mia? Es que pareceis cortados por el mismo patron.
En serio, espero que os tengan contratados o algo.
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Eso sería trabajar para recibir un sueldo, algo que los comunistas ni antifas conocen.
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And still some people are blind to this. Even with this picture of the self proclamed "president"
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Have you heard of Bolivia? Yes! the country with no access to the sea.
Well, if you are unaware of what's happening, Evo Morales "won" the elections.
Thing is, for starters, he's been president for thirteen years, which is unconstituional. This year, however, it is worse because some years ago there was a referendum to decide if he was allowed to run for president once again and the results were no. He didn't care and still ran for it.
Now, back to the past Sunday (the 20th), when the counting of votes was at 83% the results showed that there was going to be a ballotage, but the counting was stopped with no explanation to resume the day after to show an unusual increase in the votes for Evo and declare him winner with no need for a second round.
Of course, people are mad, we don't want him as president any longer, no one should have the power for so long so some cities engaged a civic strike. We are protesting peacefully for democracy and what was his answer? He sent his people with dinamite to block the roads to prevent us from getting food.
And I feel like this is just the beginning…
So, yeah, have some stuff.
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