Edit: Looks like Win10 shutdown practices aren't near as forceful in the EU as they are in the States, so please keep that in mind when making your judgments. Likewise, note that you can still set a metered connection when using wireless internet, to prevent updates.


'cause I for one, am rather tired of literally going downstairs just for a cup of tea, and finding out that my computer managed to update itself in that 5 minute period, deleting all of my open data I was working on, wasting the manhours I'd put into such. This despite the fact that even if Microsoft wanted to play the brute force shutdown card [instead of, y'know, offering a prompt like any respectable entity would- or at the very least, giving an early notification warning, like they're bloody supposed to], the fact is that saving active data to hard-drive has been a thing for ages [See: Computer Hibernate function], so they're deliberately destroying our data just because they can.

So, short of someone wanting to "brighten my day" with their plans to light Joe Belfiore on fire, has there been any word on new legal efforts or fixes for the Win10 Malware? (Oh. and interesting fact: Yes, Win 10 updates do actually meet the requirements for being defined as Malware- which makes their persistence without legal interruption all the more ..curious.)

7 years ago*

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At work I had to intervene with group policies to stop the "Get Windows 10" malware from spreading. Never mind that it's all Windows 7 Pro on a domain, Microsoft decided that if you're a real business you run Enterprise so that's the only OS exempt from the nagware. By then I had already decided I wanted nothing to do with Win10.

I even ended up emailing out a "How to stop Windows 10 on your home PC" primer to all staff, to give them the choice. So many of them would have gotten lumped with it with no idea what to do.

Microsoft is building a walled garden, like what Apple has with iOS. They want to be the gatekeeper (and toll collector) for Windows PCs. They want power, control, and oversight. I for one am not giving it to them.

7 years ago
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Dadgum Windows 10. My little brothers accidentally "upgraded" my laptop just by shutting it down, and now it gives a BSOD every time it wakes up from sleep or hibernation.

7 years ago
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I have win 7 64 ultimate retail, can install it on any one computer I want forever, and I'll give it up when they pry it from my cold dead hands.

7 years ago
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Forever? Nah. Once it is not supported actively, you'll switch, whether to Linux/Mac or other Windows ver.

Unless you're now 80 years old, of which you'll probably die in a few years or faster, of course.

7 years ago
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Meh, xp still runs just fine for things...I don't see why 7 wont for a long while from now.

7 years ago
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This exactly ^^
I had a computer running an which I disabled updates, thinking it would be for a short while, because I had to do things. Turns out I didn't update for one and a half years and guess what - it worked like charme. Computer crashed when I tried to update then and now my HDD died, but that has nothing to do with Win7 not being updated.
So, tl;dr: it works without updates!

7 years ago
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The main concern with end of life is that security holes will not be patched, so it poses a risk. Also new hardware and technology such as Directx 12 will not be supported.

7 years ago
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Plenty of games still support dx 10 and dx 9, so I don't see support for dx 11 in games going away for a while either...the percentage of overall population, not to mention gaming population, of windows 7 users is huge. And, even with microsoft's attempt to force their planned obsolescence on the masses...for the gamers, backed by nvidia and amd...there is vulkan.

As for security holes, I'm more worried about what new stuff can do more damage than old patched stuff. I'm sure I'm not the only person out there who's once somewhat new computer just totally broke because of vista, and was forced back to xp.

This whole concept of microsoft wanting to have it's os and other things be a service and not a product is straight up garbage that I'm not buying into, nor will I rent it. I don't need cortana, I don't need microsofts own brand of spyware doodads/targeted advertising, not the ugly candy coated win 8 tiles, not the xbox support, social media can kiss my ass, I don't need nor want any of that fluff. I am not some noob on the internet at the mercy of the windows store, or google play, or whatever for obtaining whatever programs...I need a computer that works, and does what I tell it to when I tell it to.

Besides..upgrade to windows 10, and break half or more of the stuff I use? I don't think so. The only advantage it would have for me is to use an xbox one controller with no hassle...and that don't outweigh everything else I would have to fix.

7 years ago*
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Besides..upgrade to windows 10, and break half or more of the stuff I use? I don't think so.

Overreaction.

7 years ago
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Given the amount of "DOESNT WORK ON WIN10!!!11!!1!111!!" reviews all over the Steam store, I'm not willing to believe that's true.

7 years ago
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Right. Overreaction, my ass.

7 years ago
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I can confirm that quite a few games stopped working for me in Win10. However, in a lot of cases, they've begun working again since, as they or windows were updated for better compatibility. It's a bit of a crapshoot, but it seems to be getting more reliable.. :X

7 years ago
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+1
win7 is still the best os for me, updates disabled and it has never given me any blue screen shit.

7 years ago
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It's why I upgraded to Pro... so I could turn them off in the Group Policy editor.

7 years ago
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As did I- however, the anniversary update disables that functionality entirely.

7 years ago
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That's weird... It doesn't for me. I have one laptop I've had for about a year. It has the Anniversary update... I upgraded it to Pro, then made the changes in the group policy editor. They've stayed.

I just recently got an ultra book for my side business, and I upgraded to Anniversary then Pro right away, then made the gpe changes. It still asks me if I want to install updates.

7 years ago
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laptop [..] ultra book

Metered connection settings still work for anything that connects to the internet through a wireless connection, so that's likely what's doing it for you. So long as the internet connection in question is considered metered, it won't auto-install updates through it.

7 years ago
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No. I think we're talking about two different things.

I don't mess with metered connections. I've no need to.

I've made my changes in the Group Policy Editor (and also the Task Scheduler). Here, let me help...

Go here: http://tunecomp.net/disable-automatic-reboot-after-updates-installation-in-windows-10/

And scroll down to: How to disable off automatic reboot using the Task Scheduler. Do all that from there until you get to the registry edits. Don't do the registry edits. Stop there.

This works for all of my computers, including my desktop, whether I'm hardlined with Ethernet or not.

I am notified that there are updates, and told "click here to download and install them" and then the machine doesn't reboot until I tell it to. That bit about Windows Anniversary update ignoring the settings you put into the Admin Template with the GPE isn't completely true, either, at least in my personal experience.

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7 years ago*
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Group Policy edits don't work after the anniversary update. As far as I understood it, that was universal. From what I read, you can still edit it, as before, but the registry doesn't actually 'connect' to any actual settings, so all you're doing is toggling a registry variable. In other words, the anniversary update stripped out the actual group policy functionality that used to exist for managing updates.
In any case, I still have my Group Policy set to the appropriate framework, and it has been shutting down for me as noted since the AU dropped, so at the very least it doesn't work for me.

I have not, however, interacted with the Task Scheduler before now, so that may in fact be the point of significance- I've implemented that, I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks very much for the bit of hope, it's become pretty stressful by this point. :X

7 years ago
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You're welcome. I know the feeling. I got really angry when I'd lose work because windows forced a reboot. Super irritating. I'd lose photoshop work, coding work, what have you. It's rude and it's BS, IMO.

7 years ago
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I'd lose [art, design, other important stuff]

Oh, you know my situation exactly, then. :/

Sometimes I'll prep a bunch of temporary art palettes for a project, getting caught up in it and not even considering making safety saves (who would do that at that stage of a project anyway?), and then lean back just to rub my eyes for a moment, and bam, the computer is shutting down without warning.

I've had a lot of downloads/updates/etc interrupted, as well, as I leave the computer to let those finish and come back to.. well, they won't be finishing, in any case. -.-

Design work, especially as far as scripting, modding, etc goes, tends to be more reliable for frequent saving, but there's always a risk for anything that you'll get distracted or caught up in it without saving, and for design, there's always needing to pull up and organize the resources again after the shut-down.

Story-writing efforts may be the most annoying area affected, since I tend to load up a buncha different files at once, lay them out in the display, and then jump between the different character files/plot files/etc to update as needed. Meaning, as I'm busy working out a single endeavor across multiple files, much like with artwork I don't see the point in making tiny saves every single word input, versus simply saving all the files at once at the point where I've reached a good progression point.

And y'know, even for people without the hobbies/professions we utilize the computer for, I still don't get this "eh, it doesn't bother me" sentiment some claim to have- because, even just using the PC for gaming, the shutdown will tear down any active games just as readily as anything else, losing any unsaved data there, as well.
Not near as damaging as losing materials for a creative project, but often as frustrating- and since when have gamers not expressed their frustrations with enthusiasm?

So yeah, it's a mess no matter what the circumstances around one's computer use is. And worst of all, it's deliberate sabotage, disrespect, and violation of our personal property, rights, space, security, etc.

Blaaaaah.
So here's crossing my fingers this latest fix works.. :'X

7 years ago
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i just took away the permissions on the script that windows update uses to start itself. sometimes i see a days-old notification that says "we will reboot when we decide you're not using it" because it can't actually do it anymore. the notification lets me know i should do the reboot to install updates (by the way, my linux installs rarely ask me to reboot them to install updates), which is how it should have worked to begin with.

7 years ago
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How'd you go about doing that? :)

7 years ago
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i followed the instructions here: superuser.com

7 years ago
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I have Win10 Pro on 7 devices I use. (3 desktops, 2 laptops, one Surface Pro and yes, still, one Win10 Mobile)

I never have that issue, ever. I update things when I'm done or it does it on its own during quiet hours which I can set.

7 years ago
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I disabled windows update... as there was once it crashed my laptop

7 years ago
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I honestly don't know why this has never happened to me yet. Hahaha

7 years ago
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Microsoft's actions during this year made me switch to Linux as main OS. I still have Windows available as dual boot for gaming. The trend they are setting is quite clear and I do not like it. Hopping off the train before it crashes. I hope development studios start releasing more games on Linux so the final need for Windows would be gone too.

7 years ago
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Ugh, I haven't messed with hard drive partitions in years- but I guess I should look into it, at least re-familiarize myself with Linux, since it seems so likely that one day in the future I'll have to switch over to it permanently. :/

7 years ago
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I have seen colleagues using their computer and have it start updates just before a presentation and a whole room of people have to wait; it's ridiculous.. Microsoft products make me so angry, but they still enjoy the huge advantage of ubiquity and network effects. It's hard to just swear off their products. I've been a Unix guy for most of life so i've managed to mostly only butt up against it at work rather than in personal life. But if you're going to lead a revolution Sooth, i'll follow you into battle ;-)

7 years ago
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Yes, I am putting up with Windows updates. I get that they can be inconvenient and even problematic for some users - however, for the majority of users, if they aren't forced to update then we end up with Window 10 boxes that aren't being patched and are vulnerable to attack. "So what", you might think, but then recall that vulnerable computers are now regularly turned into unwitting participants in malware botnets, performing DDoS and other attacks. So when you consider that by forcing most users to upgrade you are reducing that threat, I can only see it as a good thing.

I use a variety of OSes (including Windows 10 for gaming and work) and each has their own problems (Linux's ease of use as a desktop environment is still poor, Macs are getting more and more locked down etc.). But when it comes to updating to prevent malicious attacks, I honestly don't see the problem.

By the way, if you're a regular user of hibernate/sleep then that's why it will have forced you to update at an bad time. Windows can only apply updates during a full shutdown and I'd suggest all users of Windows (regardless of version) shut down their computer daily.

7 years ago
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the majority of users, if they aren't forced to update

There's a big difference between forcing an update, and forcing an update within the couple of seconds you're not actively clicking at your PC, and using that forced update to delete all active programs, despite how simply it is to save open work to PC in such instances (as per how the Hibernate shutdown function works.)
Moreover, "the majority of users" isn't going to go through exhaustive efforts to correct such things via registry/policy settings, so Microsoft REMOVING that functionality, which USED to exist in Win10, was a deliberate middle finger to anyone who expected some degree of control over the software. [Especially since we moved to Win10 with the understanding that we could utilize such control over the OS, as per previous Windows, meaning they bait and switched us, which is also illegal, as is modifying data (outside of the scope of the service) without permission.]

By the way, if you're a regular user of hibernate/sleep then that's why it will have forced you to update at an bad time

I'm on a PC, so no, that's not something I utilize.
Also, shutting down your computer doesn't always activate Windows Updates (and definitely does not ever do so for me)- Windows requires having itself shut down your computer, when it feels like it, for updates to install. Unlike previous Windows, there's no longer any way to manually trigger the install.

7 years ago
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I agree that shutting down a PC with little to no notice is not good behaviour. But MS removing the ability to easily disable updates is precisely to prevent the majority of those users ending up with an insecure OS.

Sadly, it isn't possible to update during a hibernate as you suggest. The reason being that hibernate simply writes the current RAM contents to disk, and then when it wakes from hibernate, it restores that content. For a Windows update to succeed, the programs need to be restarted completely, not temporarily stored on disk. That's not to say updating in this way is the only way - other OSes have implemented updates without restarts.

And counter to your experiences, Windows 10 has offered me the opportunity to update from the start menu (I.e. it says "Shut down and update". But I will admit it doesn't always seem to appear.

Also, please stop with "X is illegal" . Such definitions are wide enough that most software could be found to somehow be malware, and they add nothing to your argument. Unless you're writing to your lawyer to start legal proceedings against MS, just don't.

7 years ago*
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Respectively: That's not accurate, we've already clarified in this thread that EU nations do get a shut down option, and your last paragraph is unrelated to any sentiments I expressed, is hypocritical in its own sentiments, and is nonsensical in its assertions.

Do keep in mind how significantly different legality is in the States, where companies have massively more leeway in what they can do, but at the same time consumers also often have far stronger property rights. Expressing facts isn't expressing threats, nor is detailing them indicative of any intentions past their expression.

Keep in mind also the topic/title of this thread- the entire point of this thread was to raise an eyebrow at [the fact that the United States doesn't get the same management powers over Win10 that the EU does, and that the lawsuit-happy US citizenry hasn't yet made any efforts to take arms up against that fact].

7 years ago
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Windows 10 used to wake up my computer between 2 and 3 am to install updates even with schedule turned off

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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the AU update has been shown to roll that alteration back - it did on mine at any rate :P

7 years ago
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Yeah, after the anniversery update, no setting changes, policy changes, or registry changes related to update management function any longer. :X

7 years ago
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Don't even get me started. My computer has restarted at least twice now without my consent.

7 years ago
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I hate to be an asshole here, but it's kind of your fault for ""upgrading"" in the first place. You had plenty of warning that 10 was the new Vista.

Unless your previous OS automatically infected you with 10 without giving you a choice and you decided going back would be too much of a hassle... which is understandable.

But then, I still use XP as my main OS, with Mint as dual boot, so what do I know?

7 years ago
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short version, you can define off-working hours, so it won't do that during work (half a solution)
what is the alternative? sadly, imo there isn't one ;)

7 years ago
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I have had the same, also losing work. I would just like a "restart later" button. I don't really think it's much to ask.

7 years ago
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Switched to Ubuntu after realising Windows is junk ^^

7 years ago
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Ok, I don't know if you have found any solution by now, but I just saw a video from random surfing that may be interesting to you.
Goto YouTube and enter "Prevent Windows From Restarting PC After Windows Updates" from Britec09. It contains registry editing...

7 years ago
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Such methods no longer work after the windows anniversary update disable the functionality.

7 years ago
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don't install windows 10 :). simple and effective. unnistall that garbage and install again windows 7 64byts.

7 years ago
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$0.02

Both my desktop and laptop have never restarted or updated when I didn't want them to, been on Win 10 since it was first available.

Anniversary update still lets me "change active hours" so that updates don't occur during those hours. Most software auto-saves your work every so often, and if it doesn't it's a good practice to save regularly. Human error is more common than Windows Update hijacking your work and borking it with an update + restart.

On the topic of forced updates, we deal with them every day all the time. It's called the internet. Any web service you use (SG, Gmail, YouTube, Reddit, Flickr, Square Space) are being updated all the time. We just don't get update notifications or have any say in whether to implement them. This is essentially Software as a Service.

I don't agree with everything Microsoft is doing, but I don't blame them for losing work or complain when I haven't learned how to configure settings to my liking. The end user holds some responsibility too.

7 years ago
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Most software auto-saves your work every so often, and if it doesn't it's a good practice to save regularly.

Again, that's not always an option. You can't save mid-compile or mid-download, for example. And the forced update is instantaneous, it's not like there's any delay or notification to it- suddenly, the PC suddenly shuts down to implement it, assuming you've not interacted with the PC for at least 10 seconds. And, regardless, it's not a valid option for the things I use a PC for.

On the topic of forced updates, we deal with them every day all the time. It's called the internet. Any web service you use (SG, Gmail, YouTube, Reddit, Flickr, Square Space) are being updated all the time. We just don't get update notifications or have any say in whether to implement them. This is essentially Software as a Service.

Self-contained services have every right to do whatever they please to themselves. However, no service has any right to interact with property that is not self-contained, without your permission- period. A service can write whatever they like to that effect in their Terms of Service, but it's still against the law for them to implement such. In other words, Microsoft may implement a "We have the right to reformat your hard drive at any time" clause, but it won't be legally valid, as they don't have legal right to any data on your harddrive outside of their OS files, without your permission. (Likewise, if you hire an accounting firm, that doesn't give them any rights to your money outside of what you allow them..)
A similar, more commonly noticed example of how such interactions work is in game modding- modders have full legal right to mod a game, so long as they don't utilize existing files or infringe upon the IP itself. In other words, their work is self-contained. However, as soon as they copy any portion of game files, they no longer are acting within their legal rights, and it's the right of to the developer to permit or ignore such infringement.

I don't agree with everything Microsoft is doing, but I don't blame them for losing work or complain when I haven't learned how to configure settings to my liking. The end user holds some responsibility too.

You're making another massive misjudgment here, in assuming your circumstances are the same as others, despite rather firm confirmation that the ability to configure such settings simply doesn't work for some windows 10 users, especially after the anniversary update. (To be clear, system settings, registry edits, metered connections, and so forth all simply do not work in correcting such elements anymore- and honestly, expecting people in general to be familiar with how to implement such things is pretty silly in itself, given how intentionally intuitive such approaches are.) And even past that, you sound like someone trying to dismiss rape as being permissible, so listen closely: it doesn't matter what risks the victim took, it still doesn't give anyone the right to infringe upon their rights.

Even as worthless as the penny is, I do believe you've significantly overvalued your previous comments.

7 years ago
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You make many valid points. I love discourse and would normally respond with my opinion about them, however I lost interest after you likened the issue to rape.

7 years ago
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I likened one example of social blindness to another of seemingly identical construct, but of much greater significance. Given how prevalent a concern it was among those I grew up with, and how much a concern it still is among many I know (especially among those in social care), it's one that is quite firmly in mind, and with significant distaste. As such, I do end up bringing it to attention a bit more often than something so distasteful deserves, as that is superior to leaving it to fester in the shadows, ignored.

But excusing my basis of perspective in bringing it up is entirely unnecessary, as you're once again engaging in the same manner of misconception as before. Just because rape, nazis, or whatever else is often brought up for the sake of sensationalism or insult, doesn't negate them as valid points of reference in more meaningful dialogues. Otherwise, the fact that 'gay' can be a slur would mean we shouldn't ever discuss LGBT matters, or make references to minorities or their circumstances.

I was not intending to attribute the severity of rape to the matter, I was noting the similarity in social perspective. My disdain for victim-blaming and the fact that the aforementioned matter is so pressing on my thoughts did lead me to phrasing that I'll admit was too underdeveloped and clipped for what it was intended to convey- but my intent was to express disgust at the prevalence of such attitudes within the social framework, by highlighting the most key component thereof, not to utilize the reference for emphasis or insult.

7 years ago
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I didn't expect a response, but truly appreciate the effort you put into it.

I agree that social blindness holds back meaningful dialogue about important topics, such as rape or suicide. Both continue to harm my family and friends, though the events are years or decades in the past. Though you may believe it's a valid point of reference, it was unnecessary to make your point. Turning it into a hyperbole for what ammounts to an inconvenience is in bad taste.

Of course, you recognized this and made clear your position: victim-blaming is distasteful. Given you are the 'victim' in this thread, let me be clear that this not directed at you specifically: I feel there are more false-victims in the world than victims who are blamed for their predicament. Taking ownership of one's actions is important. We learn from mistakes and help others by sharing. Too often people blame external influences. Responsibility is almost almost shared, even if the split is far from equal.

Circling back to the issue of forced updates, I will repeat that I do not agree with every decision Microsoft makes, whether it be UX/UI or TOS changes. I don't have any problems with how W10 handles updates (once you've already upgraded, that is).

Skimming the post and replies in this thread, it's clear that neither of us are alone. Some users can control the updates while others can't even resort to registry hacks to gain control anymore.

The issue, then, is that the user experience is broken for some users. Assuming this is unintentional, the complaint is, at its core, about Microsoft's ability to deliver the product they've designed. Or, if one were to put a tinfoil cap on. The core issue is that Microsoft is intentionally breaking key features of Windows 10 in order to take more control of our digital lives.

(By the way, it's been a pleasure to meet you and have a relatively intelligent debate on a gaming community's forum.)

7 years ago
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it was unnecessary to make your point

I didn't feel I indicated it was. I fully acknowledge that I tangented to referencing something due to the strength of my considerations for it.
Think of it like someone expressing the sentiment of "And that ruins the meat! Sorta like [insert vegetable here] do- ugh, I hate [that vegetable]." Except in this case, it's "And that ruins respectful consideration! Sort of like victim blaming in worse contexts does! Ugh, I hate people diminishing such things like they have a right to do so."

Did it add to the topic at hand? Not necessary. Was it evidencing of my general mindset on such matters? Yes.
So I can't say I really regret it, though the phrasing definitely should have been considered better.

In other words, I referenced rape because victim blaming in general matters to me and I wanted to snap out about that, and not because rape was relevant to the topic at hand. Had there been something else that exemplified victim blame to the same degree, I'd have as easily gone with that as the reference.

In even simpler terms: You triggered me, a bit, with the blunt and accusative phrasing you used at first. :P

Given you are the 'victim' in this thread

I am not. You made a general statement, and I was responding to generalities. Had you accused me directly of being inept, I'd have been far less bothered by the matter. But a sentiment along the lines of "when someone does something dishonest and disrespectful, it's the fault of those that don't know any better than to fall prey to such behavior".. well, let's use scams as the reference instead. Regardless of how naive or foolish someone is, they're still not the one doing something wrong in that situation, and putting blame on them simply pushes the blame from where it's supposed to be, and where it can do some good, to diminishing the importance of other people.
I can't say I'm fond of that sort of mentality or sentiment.

Taking ownership of one's actions is important. We learn from mistakes and help others by sharing. Too often people blame external influences. Responsibility is almost almost shared, even if the split is far from equal.

Someone else's actions are not something you should ever take on the full responsibilities for. You're confusing two very different topics.
Here, Microsoft is trying to be a micromanaging parent. If, say, my teacher assigned me an overnight assignment, and my parents demanded I go to bed right after I got home, who is to blame there?
Me, for not considering i might need a workaround, and sneaking in a flashlight so I could handle things on my own? Or my parents, for sabotaging the things I need to get done?
Nevermind in this instance apparently my parents have inexplicably smashed every flashlight in the county.

All the sentiments you're expressing are givens, but they simply don't apply to this topic.

Some users can control the updates while others can't even resort to registry hacks to gain control anymore.

From this thread we've come to the conclusion that that seems to be primarily due to region- the EU (with their more consumer-protective legislation) apparently limited the type of behaviors Win10 could affect, and as such Win10 is a lot more reasonable in the EU than it is in the States.

I believe noone from the US has yet mentioned not having the issues at all, and that the only ones that've mentioned being able to fix their issues have tried (combinations of) approaches that I have not yet tried (or are on mobile devices with metered connections set). So the matter may actually be a lot more consistent than it appears at first glance.
But yes, even if it is that inconsistent for US users, it doesn't diminish how severe the problem can be for those affected.

Or, if one were to put a tinfoil cap on. The core issue is that Microsoft is intentionally breaking key features of Windows 10 in order to take more control of our digital lives.

Don't have to tinfoil that, the anniversary update removal of the group policy allowing you to manage updates has thus far been indicated to have been intentional. I'm also not sure that willful incompetence is any different than deliberate sabotage. If you see a fire and you have a bucket of water in hand, it doesn't matter if you set the house on fire or not, if you don't use that bucket before the house goes aflame you're still responsible for it burning down. "I want to see the world burn" ends up being the mindset either way.
Well, agree with that or not, responsibility does still fall onto them to provide a minimally functional product, as we were assured we'd receive.

relatively intelligent debate

The only truly intelligent debate is that of "Cake or Pie".
Pie, by the way- obviously.

7 years ago
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I'll respond in detail later (on a train atm) but have to agree immediately that the answer is indeed "pie". ;)

7 years ago
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As a gamer, you cannot leave windows just yet, unfortunately. But you could have refused to upgrade to win10 after all these bad reports, as I did.

7 years ago
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I didn't take Windows 10 as it wasn't something I thought was beneficial to me. So I kept Windows 7 and I made certain that if there were any updates, I had the option of when I would allow the update. I detest Windows 10

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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Nah fam I haven't updated my computer since 2013.

7 years ago
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