Well said. When I joined, this seemed like such a wonderful site about generosity. After a while it just gets more and more depressing. I'm not as bothered about people not playing their wins. I'm more bothered that there are so many irrational and rude complaints being thrown around when cg is really just making this site better and better after each update.
Just curious since I don't think you mentioned, what is that favorite bundled game that you are talking about?
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But nobody, and I mean nobody to play video games.
You had to make that post just a few days after I 100%'d that Shadowrun HK I won from you, I feel super offended now >:(
(jk you raise some valid points, even though I don't really care about that whole points debacle - I only posted to thank you again for that game, it was as amazing as Dragonfall was.)
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Said this in some other reply, but I think the problem is that it is not apparent that I am taking a group of the user base and I address them. So the general pronouns like that "nobody" means nobody among those people I am talking about.
Granted, I should have taken into account that there is a general atmosphere on the forums that anytime a post is talking about some users, many feel urged to try the shoe to see if it fits, even if they actually do not even mean it. This is some interesting phenomena and if I was a sociologist, it could be interesting to dig into.
(Then again, the SG forum is a treasure trove of sociological studies.)
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question: if it's ok for you to buy utter crap just so you can get a few extra CV, why is it not ok for someone to win said crap just to add a +1 to their account?
If your sole reason for giving is to earn points, why can't someone's sole reason for winning be to earn points?
Gratitude means saying/showing thanks, about appreciating that you received something. It doesn't mean wasting time on a game nobody wants to play. I could understand that attitude if you gave away quality games in the hopes someone would enjoy them, but not if your sole reason for giving is to get a bigger e-peen
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people will always find a reason to complain. There's a certain hypocrisy in someone giving away garbage games complaining about people not playing garbage games. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
no stone for me, I'm not without sin
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This is not what the post is about. It is not about giving away crap and caring about it being played. It is about people who hoard everything, be it crap or good or even a super-expensive and actually awesome game (as rare as they are), and not even ever thinking about playing any of them, regardless of their quality.
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I posted this earlier in the thread as a reply already but I thought I'll make it an own post here as some additional opinion of my own for that collecting mindset. I found that mindset always a bit irritating. Personally, I think it is fine that the gifter should be allowed to expect that their gifts are played. You can't really compare it with a normal gifting process to family or friends. There your gift is a symbol of appreciation for the person which you know and like.
But on Steamgifts you don't know the recipient before hand and the reason some people give away is because they appreciate the gift/game. Additionally, recipients don't get anything which may be chosen poorly. They decide themselves what they get gifted by entering said giveaway. As such, I think it is only fair to expect for games to be tested after winning as the game is the core of the whole process. Just wanted to add this as general statement, not specifically to you. I just remembered it as I read that one line.
And additionally to the "we play it later, maybe even in years" fraction. Maybe it is true. But ask yourselves: Is the speed at which you aquire new games higher or lower than games you played? How is the ratio? Because most people will never be able to beat the backlog as it just grows and grows so be realistic about that. And if people ever slow down on aquiring new games it most likely means they have lost interest in gaming anyway.
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Just as those who can obsess about entering any giveaway they see, so too can an individual be obsessed with giving away games for the purpose of points or status.
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I considered it a personal challenge, whether I have enough income to beat the system and get into the group that mostly consists of people with much higher income or have a local advantage of the Russian store prices to reach the same CV. (I earn a little bit less than a Russian in the same job, but for a while they had an insane advantage in possible CV/USD returns—usually easily pushing beyond 5CV/USD—that nobody could compete with. Then bundles beat that ratio by a lot—Humble alone often provides 15 CV/USD as a standard—so suddenly we got on equal terms.)
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This has sparked an interesting discussion, so thanks for that talgaby.
Just to offer another perspective, and I'm sure I'm not the first person to have realised this...
Many gamers now, especially PC gamers, can afford to buy a lot more games than what they are realistically going to play. With digital distribution and especially the uprise of bundles in the gaming culture, games have gotten insanely cheap.
Naturally then, a lot of Steam users end up with growing backlogs. Is this necessarily a bad thing? As gamers, if we want quality games to keep getting made we have to pay for them. If those games get steep discounts, more people have to buy them to produce the same revenue for the creators. Whether it's the cause or the effect I'm not sure, but you see that with big discounts comes a lot of buyers who never actually play the game even though they have an interest in it. An average game might only get 10% of its purchasers actually play it. Combined with how saturated the market is with products, is it any surprise that even really good MP-only games go dead rather quickly? Only those with massive advertising budgets seem to stay for the long-term.
Anyway, the point is that this phenomenon must spill over into Steamgifts somewhat. Over time, users are buying more and more bundles, or more games in general, and some of these will go to giveaways. If we're buying more and more games for ourselves than we can possibly hope to play, how can we expect that most winners of our giveaways will have any better position than us to play them?
I think initiatives like Playing Appreciated are a great idea and I'm hoping to join them soon, if only to hold myself accountable and keep on target to play through some of the nicer games I've won.
At the end of the day, I can live with knowing that a lot of winners of my giveaways will never play the game they receive, but it would hurt if it was a game I'd paid full value for and had mentioned specifically that I want the winner to actually try it out. Knowing that the money spent on games, even if it is a pittance, is still somewhat supporting the industry and that gamers simply will on average(?) have many more games than they will actually play, I don't find myself getting too bothered/depressed about it. Instead I just chug away at my win-backlog and keep making giveaways when I can, and entering for games I want to play.
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I can say nothing, here are already a variety of views.
Yes, whether white list or Groups just share some specific people.
but you are talking about play game, feedback is from the behavior.
Yes, through white list or Groups maybe not useful, maybe it lead SG more extreme.
So, have you talked about let the winner to play in the GA.
I'm not talk about add black list or coercion, just tell them to play.
SG's guidelines do not talk about play game you win.
If you want it more better, maybe you need to guide winner, I think.
On the other hand, yes, I think the community should be managed it.(future)
If this is not fluent , sorry for bad english.
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Only one of those people ever played it.
I'm about to fire up today's win, it's been a long while since the last one.
I wrote a longer post, but decided to delete it because, honestly, it all seems a bit pointless at the end of the day. I've been a somewhat casual user of this site for years, and people seem to have been debating some variation of this or another, similar argument for so long, that I don't even know how everybody still finds the energy to go in circles over the same things, instead of just shrugging and moving on.
Blacklists, ratios, what my winners are doing, how many games you've won, how many entries before a win, hoarders, bots, the CV system is wrong, the levels are unfair, the endless nitpicking of the rules, the moderators being terrible, is SGTools the Ultimate Evil or the Savior of SteamGifts, should you hate people because they play different games than you do <sigh>
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I could go on a ramble trying to explain my point of view and why I think that way, or I could just keep it simple and say that you're being fatalist.
In average it takes me a week or more to get through a game, but the rate at which new games enter my library I simply can't keep up. So yeah, I'm a hoarder and I'm aware of it, I'm not gonna try to defend myself.
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This all really sounds like there should be another SG version for people who play their games "actually playing games" and "playing appreciated" kind of thing. I am a member of both and really like those groups, but I also enter giveaways for games that i plan to play in the future (sadly it might be in 1-3 years). I don't feel that is bad, but I try not to win maximum amount of games, just enter for games I have picked out and sometimes get lucky.
I usually don't buy games for myself anymore (except for dlcs for already owned games), I buy games on sale or through monthly and keep them not activated in case I never get to them so I can give them away. Other exceptions are kickstarter games etc.
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I win games, but I also give away games, but as long as I live I will never play games to complete all the achievements - I find them pointless and annoying - I play games to enjoy them, not 100% them ever (I will even actively avoid getting some achievements on purpose). Furthermore, with SAM being around, no one can ever trust the 100% completion record that soooo many purport to have (and playing offline is often done). As long as I give away games, I will not be made to feel guilty about the few games I win remaining unplayed for the time being, as I entered them because I wanted them to eventually play - time is short at the moment for us, and for the time being we prioritise running our business and making giveaways over other things - always with the hope that things will change in the future to allow us time to play
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does it check for games completed with SAM? - just curious as to how good a script is versus how good someone elses script is - it does not alter the fact that we will not be made to feel in the least bit guilty for not getting to our won games straight away - especially whilst we are actively giving :P
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I know a few who do it, and brag about it, which is why I have no problem eschewing such arguments over their efficacy - just makes me sad, and the fact that it appears as though some might think that if you are not playing your wins immediately, then you should not be entering giveaways - just makes me an even sadder panda - especially as some of those who are in this boat give regularly and are purposefully not members of the play your wins groups of any sort (where if you want your wins to be played immediately, then perhaps that is where there giveaways should be).
I know many people do not feel the way I do, but it makes me feel that SG is being pushed away from people who just want to share stuff without strings attached :( - although, I did come here after steam companion died, so not really into the whole forum cliques that exist here :)
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Expecting won games getting playing immediately is bullshit. Even those who work currently on their won games, still have a few missing games in there, so they can't directly start with another one. And then there's also real life. But after a year .. or for AAAs or games listed in the community wishlist it might be expected to get played earlier (appreciating the price and demand for those).
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yep - fair points - but there are groups for people who want to be sure that their game is going to be played - beyond that, I don't put requirements on anything we give away :) - once it is gifted, as long as they activate it on their account (as required by the site rules), it is enough for us - for all I know they could get into an accident and not be able to play their games for years (but still visit the site/forum to keep up with things), or simply be too busy, it happens (real life takes over at the most awkward moments) :)
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Like Myrsan said, low playtime makes it suspicious. I know at one of the LastM's(I think) thread one guy getting caught. LastM had set the rule to invitational whitelist GA only for those who had earned ≥1 Achievement in at least 25%. And one guy to reach that criteria ran SAM got caught XD.
You also risk getting a VAC. Oh I like cheaters getting branded.
And for me achievements adds more excitement to the game. I like it. I like to achieve all of them if I can, but leave them if its too much grinding, pointless such as those multiplayer ones, seasonal achievements, click 1000 times on something kinda thing. I never miss a thing even if I didn't complete them.
And if you are using tools like SAM then you are taking the excitement out of the game. Pretty worthless. And then you try to brag about it. Greatest achievement for them "Everything is a lie, deception and dishonesty.. and you boast as it is good". And here by "you" I mean those who use SAM
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oh I agree - it really grates on me when people do it, and I think it should not be allowed, but it also annoys be when people think that others should, or do, play the same way they do; it seems to happen more than usual these days :( - I don't waste time on achievements - that is just the way I play - if I get to the end of the game in a few hours with only a few achievements completed I don't go back (replaying for achievements just doesn't do it for me - I think it is because we have very little time a the moment to do it).
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I think this thread is becoming a bit of a poisoned chalice overall
I don't think so. There should always be active discussions between different views and opinions. That make the community great. Everyone may think they are right, but its the discussions of ideas, views and opinions that encourages to respect each other, rectify us if we are wrong, be of greater use for the community.
In a way though I agree with the talgaby. Appreciation for the gift, playing the win, giving chances to other if you won't be playing etc. I think those thing should be given priority over +1 and idling.
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maybe, but as I said before - I will not be made to feel guilty about not immediately playing my wins on steamgifts - at least not until it is put into the TOS of this site - it is a gift after all, without conditions, and if people want someone to play their gift immediately (time constraints mean we cannot at present) there are groups where those giveaways can be made
indeed, they could even ask the maker of SGTools to come up with some rule to be placed on their giveaways - I bet it could be done? well maybe :)
either way, I do not give away our spare games with conditions attached to them, beyond those noted in the SG level system - don't want to become too elitist :)
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Yeah I read that yesterday.. too much assumptions.. bit got out of topic when it shouldn't have. :(
No one is asking you to feel guilty about not immediately playing your wins. The thing is that we should think for ourselves, feel gracious what other gave. We should take the gift if we know pretty sure that it will be utilized. I too have some game like Tales from the Borderlands that I haven't played, but I am pretty sure I will play it. It's just that I haven't played the Borderland series, so I thought playing the Tales from the Borderlands will ruin the story. The guilt coming from own-self is stronger than other making you feel guilty. So I guess we don't have have anything for those "other making you feel guilty", when we know for sure will will play it at the end of the day.
The thing with TOS is that, there are many things that are not written in laws, but that doesn't mean you should do it. Like littering office spaces. Those things are established by general social/cultural norms and ethics or even personal ethics. Those things are gradually shaped for the community or society's betterment. And like one statement said in comments by adam1224 "People are greedy and selfish, especially when no strings are attached, that's common, everywhere in the world. But that doesn't change on it how I feel uneasy in the gut about people entering everything then yelling at the creators "why are you giving away shit and then expect me to play it?" when none is forced to enter". Might be bit out of context but fits regarding the gifts from GA creators. We should be able to come out of that mindset and never take anything for granted from other if we we are not gonna use it. I think this thinking will make the community great. I will try to follow that. :)
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yeah - I get most of that - but I do not give away games with strings - that is just a personal view point though, I appreciate that - to me, it is a gift plain and simple :). Sometimes, it is like the gift you get from that wierd uncle, that you say thank you for, smile even though you hate it, and put away forever, but it is still given without strings (notwithstanding the warm glow that person might have by giving it to you). Asking people for specific actions when gifting is, in my opinon, for groups of that nature - that is borne out by the fact those groups exist and is populated by likeminded people :) (just as it should be)
But I appreciate that I might be in the minority on the gifting front, as is shown by the BL I have received - thank goodness for that new reciprocal BL rule eh :).
Thanks for your words of wisdom though, it is appreciated - also I really want those borderlands games as well, so I can appreciate your thoughts on that :) - but I put my monry on the Stardock Bundle :( curse my needs
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sadly u are absolutely right i also have given away games 7 put of 15 never even got installed so what i do is put a form up have ppl put in ther steam name as a entry point that way i know there not bots thin because its not decided by the system so i can say NO if im not covenced that they will play ofr have any intrust in the game
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add me on steam and i will put u under my next giveaway i do offline
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In my case, what's holding me back from playing my wins is Dota 2 and once you get addicted to it or any other MOBA then its really hard to leave it and play single player games.
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First of all thx for all the GAs you do talgaby, I am sure I won a few from you :)
If you ask me the great side of groups like Playing Appreciated and the other one (Playing games, or something like that) is to stop +1 and to give games to those who want. First gives you a month to play while the other goes up to a year.
Unfortunately you can't make people play games they won, I look at myself I won games on my WL and still have to play then just cause I didn't have time for them since I don't want to play them for 1 hour per week or cause I am playing another game right now. (that doesn't mean I am not gratefull or that I will not play them in the near future)
That said I have a problem with the new system only cause the new system is flawed and the recent bundle from HB showed it. Van Helsing was 45 to enter, meaning that in a day you can enter it 11 times and if you don't win that is that, no more entries for you..
P.S. I had the money for the bundle so this didn't effect me per say, but it did hit me in the eye :)
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I really like the new points system. I don't really care if the new system increases or decreases the win chance.
Before the new points system, If I had a lot of points, I would just randomly enter games even if I didn't plan to ever try them.
Why? because If I didn't use up the points, i would "lose" points because of the points cap overnight or when a new bundle got released.
But lately, even before the points system change, I started to hide everything that I almost know for sure that I wont even try, and the new system helps with that since I don't have to feel like I "lose" points anymore. I like that. If I win a game that I really want, it makes me happy and if I play a game that I won which the user that gifted it cares about playing won games, it makes him happier and that's great.
There are some games that I won that I think I wont even try, but lately I started to play my won games, I've finished DMC and currently i'm trying to beat Revolver360, afterwards I will see which game to play next, maybe it will be Slime-San.
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I think you and Mully said everything that should have been said.
Yes i did not play every game I won here yet, but I think I am on a good way.
I at least tried almost every game and finished some of them.
It's bothering me that there are some people who are just clicking their way through SG to win as many gifts as possible without an intend to play them.
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Unfortunately, the root of this problem lies in human nature. It is a rare individual who does not take more than he or she needs when faced with a virtually unlimited supply. You have only to look in a person's home to see that in action. It would be great if people would play their wins, but I don't see any way of improving things on that front. At least I can spend what little time I manage to find playing my own wins.
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complaining about how few giveaways people can enter now
REALLY? They increased the level cap, reduced the maximum value of each GA and they still bitch about it? REALLY?!?!?! Fuck those people, I guess the points are regenerating slower, but still this site isn't supposed to be about spending every single damn point on every single GA they gaze upon.
I think this change is good and hope it will stay, I understand that people don't have time to play everything, some only farm for cards, but at least people should have the decency to enter a game they intend to play someday because it seems interesting to them, but alas, that's just my opinion and no one is forced to do that. Ignore those whinny people Tal
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Over the course of roughly 25 months, I spent an average of 100 USD monthly to buy games to give away on this site. It is not a particularly high amount, but it was a little under the fifth of my monthly income.
My main reason was to try and find the most optimal way to game the CV level system, experimenting on the most optimal ways to reach the highest level with the lowest investment. (Keep in mind, this way before the time such ridiculous CV farms like Humble software bundles were this relatively commonplace, so my average was around 3.5 CV/USD.)
Over the course of roughly 30 months, I sent out 7,000 game keys to 6,500+ people, and the combined point value of these games is now exceeding 62,000. That is sixty-two thousand points only the winners spent during this time to enter giveaways.
Tens of thousands of those points hide bad games.
Tens of thousands of those points hide decent to good games.
A couple thousand of those points hide pretty damn good games.
To this day, I know absolutely surely about 1200-ish points worth of those games which were played by the winners. Some to completion, some to 100%, some only until they realised it was not really their cup of tea. Still, at least they tried.
Even if I interpolate it based on the average behaviour I see among the userbase thanks to that userscript that can check up on won game play stats, my best guestimate is maybe 5-6,000 points of those games were installed and played to some degree by those who won them.
That is at best 10% of the total and it also seems to be more or less the average of the global win ratio I see among active SG users.
Ever since the site's solitary owner, cg, introduced the new point system, we now have close to one thousand replies in its announcement thread complaining about how few giveaways people can enter now. I actually checked most of those users. The average ratio of played games was not even nearly 10%.
Still, it is not the thing that struck me. What really stuck out for me was that nobody, not a single soul among them ever thought about that maybe they could use this sudden excess time they are not spending on entering giveaways to actually try to play some of those video games they won here. Games other people paid for.
Yes, I know, SteamGifts is not a charity site. We had the discussions, the majority cast the vote on this. Still, people paid money for these games. Some more than me, some less than me. Some only a fraction of their sizeable wages, some a hefty portion of their pocket money.
But you guys… the thought to even try the games these people gifted to you… it never even crossed your mind, even for a second.
Lower point income is not the real issue on this site. The real issue is that you are a bunch of entitled little brats who cannot think about anything else but hoarding. Some for a +1 in their sizeable library, some for cards, some for the sake of winning something on the internet. But nobody, and I mean nobody to play video games.
This is the problem right now on SteamGifts. You. You and your approach on the gifts others gave you. Yes, some are genuinely crappy games. Yes, most of them are bundled games. But guess what, one of my personal favourite non-indie games in the recent years is on the bundle list, I even spent a considerable amount on several packs of a Humble bundle to get ten keys for it, of which I now gave away eight. Only one of those people ever played it.
So, your problem may eventually be not the lack of points, but those who pump money into this site realising that people like you just take mindlessly whatever they can without any sort of gratefulness, and they just stop giving. Then you can start whining even more on the lack of giveaways to enter for.
And I bet none of you will think about playing any of your won games even then.
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