That does really look like one civilised country... I wonder if there is anything the world could do to help.
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Video compilation of police response
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1266917228752056320?s=19
https://twitter.com/JordanUhl/status/1267531005663023104?s=19
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They’d rather arrest hundreds of American citizens than 3 of their own. Very telling.
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People say that you shouldn't believe everything you see on the Internet, but Twitter is the epitome of that. Twitter would be the LAST place I would use as a "source" when trying to provide hard evidence for anything.
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Yes, it's a video. Posted on Twitter. The editor is not given. The original sources are not given. Any explanation and/or commentary by someone who actually knows what is happening in the scenes is not given. And so on, and so on. As an actual "source" or document for the purpose of being used as evidence (for pretty much anything), this video is worthless. It has been edited in such a way as to qualify for propaganda, yes, but that detracts from its reliability. Do you believe the person posting it on Twitter stopped to consider that? Did you consider any of that before responding to my post? It does no good for us to use our eyes if we are not also using our brain.
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What a ridiculous comment. A whole lot of talking with zero substance. Every video clip compiled can easily be found from the past few days. There are HUNDREDS of videos here of police brutality. The author has compiled at least 2 more videos since I posted this! Even if you try to explain a few away as necessary force some are just obviously inexcusable!
You think it has zero worth simply because it was posted on Twitter? Because it is "propaganda"? Do you think the video is doctored? Do you think it only looks bad because of editing? Get out of here bro! Do whatever mental gymnastics you want to do to ignore obvious police brutality!
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While I could break down any of those clips to raise serious questions about what is being presented, that would only benefit those who understand that the eyes and brain can be fooled and misled. Once a person's mind is set, they see only what they want to see. Before someone puts words in my mouth, I will re-affirm that I do not condone police brutality, nor do I excuse it. I merely promote critical thinking, something that seems to be sorely missing, these days. Insult me all you want, it does not change the truth of my words.
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No, you clearly condone it. YOU felt the need to come in and say these videos of police brutality should not be believed. There are two reactions to these videos - this is disgraceful, or this is fake news. Which side you are on is obvious.
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I never said anything of the sort. I did say that Twitter is not a reliable source. (There are plenty of other sources to choose from that are way more reliable.) I also said that the video presented on Twitter was not a reliable source, but you didn't even stop to question why that might be. Finally, despite your claim that there are only two possible reactions to that particular compilation, I gave a third reaction. (There are more than three, by the way.) It is obvious that you have no clue as to which "side" I am on despite me elaborating on that in my previous response.
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Why is it not reliable?
Excellent question. I wish our entire conversation had started with this. I would love to answer you, too, only I am hesitant due to the apparent animosity you have been expressing. If you are interested in exploring the "why" of it, I will do so.
[Edit: I just realized that I do not know what you are referring to by "it." Either way, I am ready to elaborate.]
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You're being deliberately obtuse, saying what I'm posting has no value, giving no evidence to back any claim you make (Twitter is unreliable...because it is? Multiple incidents of police brutality are unreliable...because they are?) You are being argumentative for the sake of it. Youre subtly or not so subtly calling me dumb by implying nobody "thinks critically" besides yourself. I am not interested in getting a lesson from you. I am interested in you backing up your statements saying what I say has no value and shouldn't be believed.
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You're being deliberately obtuse ...
I am not being obtuse. I am being exact.
I am interested in you backing up your statements saying what I say has no value and shouldn't be believed.
Since you are demanding a response, I will give one.
To begin with, I did not say that what you posted has no value. What I said was that Twitter is an unreliable source of information. When you want to provide evidence of something, you want to use a reliable source. That is assuming, of course, that one is available. Much of what is claimed, these days, is simply hear-say, and finding a proper source is often problematic.
People usually know that they should be careful about believing things they read/see/hear on the Internet. There is a long history of misinformation being promulgated through the Internet due to the prevalence of undocumented claims and anonymity of those who proffer them. Were I to walk up to you in person and say, "Some guy says your house was just robbed," you would naturally question my assertion. Which guy? Do I know him to be an honest person? How did this guy come to find out about where you live and what has happened to your house? And so on. If I am unable to answer your questions to your satisfaction, you would have doubt about what I tell you. In fact, even had I convincing answers, you might still doubt me. It is entirely rational to seek confirmation about what one is told, and therefore nonsensical to discard the need for such when it comes to Twitter.
First, look at those two videos you linked for sourcing. Do you personally know the guy who posted them? From whom did he get the edited videos (because they most certainly have been edited)? Does he know the person who edited the videos? Does he know to what degree the videos have been properly vetted for clarity? Does he know the original sources of those videos? Who took the original footage of those videos? Can anyone vouch for those people? Who decided what was to be left out of the clips as they are definitely cut off? These questions (and others) should be addressed by the one presenting the videos, and the resulting answers should be available to any viewers via citation. That level of accountability is required both in academia and professional journalism, and its basis is personal responsibility for the information one disseminates to the public.
Second, focus on the collected bits of video themselves. To get a grasp of a news story, you need to know Who, What, When, Where, Why, and How, yet we are lacking that information in every part of every video. Without that, we at least need enough video to figure out what we are seeing. In real life, we have context within which to understand what is happening around us, but we still need a bit of time to comprehend our environment. If a person opens his front door and there is a chaotic scene on the other side, he will need at least a minute to take it all in and get a grasp on what is happening. Psychologists will tell you that we need about one minute before an incident and one minute after it in order to grasp the context of something that occurs. Those short bits of video are not long enough to provide that. This means there are two avenues left open for interpretation: guessing, and detailed analysis by a professional in that particular field (in this case, Law Enforcement). I am guessing that you are not in L.E. and have not done a laboratory analysis of the videos. Our anonymous "source" probably doesn't fit the bill, either. That leaves guessing as our means of explaining what is going on in the videos, and guessing---even educated guessing---is unreliable.
Third, examine the nature of Twitter itself. Unless we are personally familiar with the owner of a particular Twitter account, and we know said person would NEVER post anything that was less than 100% honest and accurate, that Twitter account should be considered an unreliable source. Twitter is a collection of anonymous people who are allowed to say/post anything they desire, fact or fiction, without any accountability whatsoever. It is the equivalent of "some guy heard it from some other guy sometime in the past." We would (and should) dismiss such hearsay as "unfounded" because there is no way to tell if there is any truth to it. To believe what we are told simply on the basis of "it sounds good to me" is the epitome of foolishness. It is that level of gullibility that enables scam artists and con men to become wealthy in today's world.
So, whenever someone posts something from Twitter as evidence, I am going to encourage that person to engage in Critical Thinking. Said person may get angry at me as a defense mechanism due to embarrassment, but the way I was raised was to throw a life preserver to a drowning person, even if that person won't grab onto it. Regarding my response to you, personally, I felt that my initial response was self-explanatory. My message of "seek to use reliable sources, instead" was neither a personal attack on you nor a rebuttal of your opinion. Looking back on my responses since then, I believe I have maintained that level of discourse.
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Police kneels on a compliant, unarmed guys neck for 8 minutes as he says he can't breathe and onlookers point out he's no longer moving, colleagues only interest is in deterring action from bystanders, false reports are filed afterwards which are then debunked by video footage, no arrest is made. Until people made sure they couldn't just sweep it under the rug. In a system where there are patterns of police escalating force / situations with little to no reason or repercussion, even where permanent injury or fatality is the result. When substantial change has not occurred, and 'on paid administrative leave' followed by 'found no wrongdoing' is a running joke of a follow-up? Of course rioting is an element.
Is it a constructive, civil method of signalling discontent? No.
But every time peaceful, even respectful protests were tried, the results were screeching demands of firing, declarations of being a 'traitor' and 'unpatriotic'. Modern equivalents of calling someone "uppity". Remember how MLK Jr and his followers were considered sanctimonious rabble at the time? Framed as lawless and disrespectful? Yeah. Thing is, people can only ask for humanity politely for so long, before they start demanding it. These riots are a natural manifestation of a faceless system that has been forcing others to pay the tab on its shit.
Even if you cannot grasp the basics of this with human empathy and critical thinking, then as gamers at least some of you should understand the natural flow of this. If you build a civ while severely neglecting 'environment', you get toxic sludge. If you chronically neglect the hunger meter, you waste away. If you ignore a constant dripfeed of prompts that your forces are harming innocents, even after they escalate and reveal they were systemically hiding their acts so you don't ruin their perks? Then of course the dissent becomes protest. And if your pick of multiple-choice options to the protest is merely quash it but not address the cause, it becomes riots. Next is rebellion or revolution. No, the riots are not the enlightened solution, but they are an entirely expected outcome. Whether they are the disenfranchised simply lashing out so the noise is unabled to be ignored, or opportunists just trying to profit, or actually peaceful protests that were incited by police agent provocateurs? It was expected. If we simply focus on quashing again (riots OR protest) without correcting the underlying problems, we are simply putting the lid back on the pressure-cooker and pretending we aren't leaving the heat on. We just better fucking hope that "I can't breathe" doesn't become a trilogy rather than just a sequel, because these things do not get smaller with each eruption.
I do find it quite telling though, that people will bend over backwards to try assert 'its just one bad egg', but when a cruiser rapidly accelerates into a blockade out of mere frustration, or reporters are arrested or clubbed, or peaceful individuals on a quiet street take sustained direct LTL fire just because cops felt like it, or when two officers repeatedly punch a downed protester in the face more than 5 times each, or an officer blitzes a retreating individual in the back of the head with a blast of pepper spray,? Do any of their colleagues try to stop the brutality? WIll any of them report it? And if we pretend that they did, would there be a single repercussion? No. No they wouldn't, and no, there won't be. Right now, with this second coming of "I can't breathe", an occasional officer may be suspended or even fired as a token measure (but only where the most blatant of recordings are there to make it utterly undeniable), don't be fooled by that. When the fires are out and the initial catharsis is on cooldown, the pattern will return. Some well-meaning figures will try help push for change, but ultimately we will get the same automatic customer-service bot reply.
"But people are-"
No. Hold the police to a higher standard. They are not just random people. They have state-granted immunity not for their amusement or for shortcuts through tricky situations, but the operation of a core service. They initiate criminal charges. They have a permit to use force. If a retail cashier can hold a cool head while having regular overly-entitled people getting in their faces while considering it a 'freedom of speech' for the consumer, then we shouldn't shrug and look the other way when a group of armed, trained individuals perform the opposite of de-escalation, or lash out like a slighted gangster at some of the most meagre of percieved provocations. If it was 'just a bad egg' or 'a rare loss of temper', they would be weeded out, punished, or charged. And yet when entirely forseeable rioting in a holding pattern happens, suddenly all unrelated protesters have to share the same umbrella? Yes, there are good cops, but the ones who challenge the abusers tend to get sidelined, put into positions to minimise their 'snitching', or worse. Some people genuinely just want to do the job and be a positive influence. Yeah. I get that. But remember how many people stood by as George Floyd died. Hold the line. Don't snitch. Just another day on the job. With no repercussion for those involved. Until people made a lot of noise.
Yes, 'all lives matter'. But this is a triage.
Direct your scrutiny in ALL directions.
Consider humanising more than just the police.
And brace yourselves. Trump recently just made a bizarre mention of protecting the second amendment in his latest address of the protests/riots. Whether you feel that is an intentional dog-whistle or not, it may still stir a certain reaction in a certain demographic. I don't know what happens next, but if the next time it comes around, I better not see anyone making exaggerated shrugging gestures as they wonder aloud at why people are rioting between utterances of "Well they should do as the police said" and "Thats just a bad egg" and "Self-defense, the police in the car were afraid for their lives because traffic cones were thrown at it" and so forth.
Despite what you may think after all this I have written, I am not 'anti police'. I just think that people who are a disgrace to the uniform should be stripped of it, and that wearing a badge is not a license to disregard law. Even without the racial aspect OR the fatality aspect, this shit should be a gravely concerning subject in america. Here's a worthwhile watch, on a softer scale of concern. Worth at least watching until the end of the first short example.
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I just think that people who are a disgrace to the uniform should be stripped of it, and that wearing a badge is not a license to disregard law.
I have yet to find someone among law-abiding people who does not agree with that.
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Your comment is incredibly compelling and thoughtful. Thank you for writing this.
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I am not too much against the violent protesters. Throw up barricades, burn those tires.
But I cant agree with the looters, hope they get identified and get their just deserts.
Same goes for that cop.
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there is a quote in my country make it big to get smaller so I think they're doing the right thing and they want to get their value back as citizens
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how many white people died in the same ways but went under silence cuz they are not Black?? just asking.
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It's not under silence because they're white, it's just that there are a disproportionate number of black people who die in this way. When you consider that black people are a minority, the percentage of deaths among them are high. That's why people are angry. There's no excuse for the anarchist behaviour that's happening right now, but the genuine protesters do have something to protest about.
It also has a lot to do with social status imho. Because of the generations of discrimination in America, a higher percentage of non-whites live below the poverty line. Of course, you have poor white people in the same situation too. These bastards that happen to have jobs as police officers target poor people because they see them as less than human, or at least on a lower level of existence than they see themselves. I wonder how many people did that dirty bastard cop rough up before this. I find it hard to believe that this was his first rodeo, it's just that this time, someone died. He was probably treating people badly all the time. The people these corrupt cops target, most of the time, are those who wouldn't have the money to go up against them in a courtroom. Ever notice that?
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If white people are being murdered by police and they're trying to cover it up, then it is upon the witnesses and those who have information to spread it, and people to rise up. You can't just sit on your ass and scoff that other races didn't do all the legwork of starting the fire FOR you. These protests are happening because when word got out, and the proof was shown, they mobilised and refused to let it go. Consider that this is all part of a long-running pattern, and that peaceful protests were tried the last time it happened. This is a sequel to "I can't breathe", which was a manifestation of something hiding in plain sight and in our peripheral vision for a long time.
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well i didn't see any pacxific demonstration tbh... i see riot and devastation and robbery.. i want that agent in jail, but i don't want that the murder of the poor Floyd become a justification for those who want only steal and create caos.. and i'm pretty sure there were many others abuse and death of non black ppl, that went under silence ...becouse they are ,well, not black. i hate any kind of instrumentalization.
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You are in Italy, what do you know about American racial politics that you did not learn on the TV or internet? I'm genuinely curious, not trying to sound rude.
well i didn't see any pacxific demonstration tbh...
When black people knelt at football games, they were called thugs and fired.
When black people formed a movement with peaceful demonstrations across the country, they were called criminals and told they should be arrested and to shut up because 'all lives matter'.
and i'm pretty sure there were many others abuse and death of non black ppl, that went under silence ...
People need to stop injecting their outside opinions into everything and start to listen to the people voicing their problems, instead of marginalizing their voices.
No one wants to listen, everyone wants to talk, and people wonder why there are riots.
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stopped reading you when u said this: People need to stop injecting their outside opinions into everything and start to listen to the people voicing their problems, instead of marginalizing their voices.
This enlightened me. Regards. P.s. thanks for balckisting, this prove me that what i think is right.
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I did not blacklist you, but you still don't know what you are talking about at all. You don't live here, and your opinion is very wrong.
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The footage of police brutality against the peaceful protesters is ample and well-circulated. While some degrees of force are expected when dealing with violent protest, that is not the only police aggression that is happening. If all you see is rioters and looting then you are either subject to confirmation bias, or you are only getting your information from limited and biased sources. There is footage of a nonviolent protester being pepper sprayed (which was unnecessary), but then followed up by having a smoke grenade fired directly into his head at close range. There is footage of two police officers who have downed an individual, both punching him in the face more than five times each. There are multiple videos of press being pepper sprayed, fired upon and arrested even when clearly identifying themselves. There is a video of two police cruisers driving through people, one of which accelerates suddenly with the purpose of striking a blockade directly in front of it, where the way behind it was clear. It goes on and on, and these are only the high profile ones, much less the incidents that are not recorded (with incidents of police bodycams being switched off with no cited reason, along with police badge numbers being deliberately covered and obscured). There are plenty of videos of protesters standing in literal silence, or of protesters on megaphones organising themselves and reminding to isolate anyone who attempts vandalism or violence. There are plenty of videos of people on their knees with their hands pre-raised in surrender, and slogans of "Hands up : Don't shoot".
Google is only a click away, so if after this post you do not perform due diligence before next throwing your opinion on the subject, you don't have an excuse.
And yes, there is plenty of police brutality that happen towards non-blacks, however it is not the fault of black people if non-blacks do not spread information and protest their own issues. This is the same logic used when people say "why are there no straight pride parades?". If you want one, arrange one, and deal with the backlash that all forms of pride attracts. Similarly, if a white person is brutalised or murdered and footage shows the police report was a lie, it is upon white people to raise awareness and spark the protest, and once that awareness is mustered, other communities will join in. Black Lives Matter actually championed a good number of white fatalities at the hands of police, but still get shit on for 'not caring about' (specific name here) when they often in fact have called out their names and walked for them.
This is not solely about race, though the fire was kindled due to a black mans murder. There is a reason so many are walking besides BLM even where they do not identify under that name. Because it isn't just blacks that are subject to brutality. Yes, caucasians do seem to proportionally get less coverage in mainstream media for these incidents, but POC tend towards being escalated or profiled in greater degrees. Prejudice and injustice is not a binary, it is not as simple as 'yes' or 'no'. Prejudice is a landscape, with every demographic and every denomination having its own mercies and its own deficits. It does not improve anyone's life to point accusations at other victims, or scoff at those who are doing the work to uplift or protect their communities (while simultaneously resenting them for not doing all the work to protect/uplift yours FOR you).
Your talking points are easily and widely addressed. Constantly.
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you know there are many news on google.....this is what i hate to those who see only one direction...https://rmx.news/article/article/video-retired-st-louis-police-captain-david-dorn-killed-on-facebook-live-while-protecting-friend-s-pawn-shop-from-looters-during-george-floyd-protests and lefter are used to do this..expecially here in Italy...here they are using magoister to silence oppositor..so you need to understand that there is no good side or bad side.,but seems i'm wasting my time. i only wish cops who murdered the guuy will be in jail for long time. as i want the same for violent looters . that's all. i end this here.
Regards.
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Yeah, I bet record-breaking unemployment isn't a factor, nor that comically bias medical examination report of George's death combined with the continuous brutality from the cops even against peaceful protesters putting aside Trump's big brain response
"Why can't they stay home, be good and eat ice cream like Nancy Pelosi? smh"
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i think the violent protestant is the result of years of depression,hatred and on top of that unemployment , most of them use racism as an excuse to justifie
what they are doing , a lot of people die everyday the same way in palastine or around the world and no one cares or do what usa people are doing now
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some are protesting, some are protesting and doing some looting, some are only in for the looting. People are complicated.
I just think someone should make things like what happen to Floyd never happen again.
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Hinterland- makers of the long dark, made a post about donating to BLM and other organizations witch sparked a political debate on there post. hinterlands moderator is deleting comments that dont conform to there views, and banning people. some people were being jerk offs but others were polite and respectful but if what you said didnt/doesnt pander to hinterlands liking it was deleted.
i only bring this up because as i was reading through this discussion i can only imagine how many ban hammers hinterland would of dropped.
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"Pandering" has become a really abused word.
Consider that the issue orbits around the severe misuse of police force, and that it is anchored in fatalities. Even if they were in fact being heavy-handed, the subject is a very raw one that touches directly on 'life and liberty' of a very literal sense, with ongoing evidence of police brutality and severe misconduct. To say the wound is still fresh would be an understatement, as the wound is still being torn wider at the moment. Tactless as you may feel they're being, it's a subject in which people are facing injustice and injury, and the paradigm of 'one vs many' (a dev team monitoring a debate within a gaming community), it takes a powderkeg subject and mixing it with the flamethrower of 'gamer socialising'.
Unless they're removing access to the game or something, I don't really see this as a particularly nasty act on their part. I mean, it's certainly not the most lucid way to go about things, but then again I'm also here in a gaming forum letting myself get wrapped up in political stuff too. I just have the grace of not getting a hundred replies in my inbox, with a certain percentile of trolls or infantile police authority-worshippers.
If you feel you got wrongfully banned then... that's rough. But right now the whole subject has a lot of people seeing red, and even with limited moderator experience (and outside of the gaming subject), I can only imagine the pieces of this puzzle may not be as simple as they first seem. I'd only suggest that it's better not to engage with a 'captive audience' on such subjects, and stick to directing it at other mutual users rather than adding to what probably ended up being something of an emotional bombardment for the 'host'.
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tldr. sry. i was just making a statement, not looking for a debate or intend to discuss anything. last thing i wanna do is talk politics with people online.
just looked got u wl for nice ratio, keep up the good work
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Coming into a political thread and dropping a post like that made it seem otherwise, but I guess the subject is real heavy and we all have to manage our own mental / emotional wellbeing. No worries. I suppose steamgifts is a gaming site too so I can't fault you there either, heh.
The TL;DR version of my post was that the subject is a spicy one, and the fires are still burning, so tempers are high. You know what gamers can be like, so the constand ping of new messages likely ended up as a mood-wrecking barrage. If you were part of it and feel like you got wrongfully banned, try not to take it personally. I've never seen Full Metal Jacket, but I think "It's a huge shit sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite" feels like it applies here ;P
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That's unfortunate to hear (about banning people of opposite viewpoints) but an interesting topic. Throughout this whole mess, I've seen many game developers and Hollywood actors make donations to organizations I don't respect at all. It leads to the whole "separating the art from the artist thing". For example, Steve Carell donated to an organization that bails out rioters and I've lost respect for him as a result but ill still watch the hell out of The Office. I understand you aren't really looking for a discussion, which is fine, but your comment kind of stuck out to me so I wanted to put my two cents in.
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I think the biggest point of everything going on can be this: "People suck and life is generally even worse."
But I mean really it's all what you think of it or whatever, if you want to listen to Assassin's Creed, "Nothing is true, everything is permitted".
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The 77yr old David Dorn, a black retired police officer and volunteer guard killed by riotters/looters, shown live on facebook.
I am not going to look up any links as apparantly the video is gruesome.
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Protests are one thing, vandalism, looting, and property damage is another.
I agree that people who do the ladder are just as bad as the police officer. Because it makes the situation for non-protesters worse as well. How? High tax costs. If that happens, everybody suffers.
But it's not just that. If people keep doing these violent actions, the authorities will deploy drastic measures or worse, marshal law.
I don't want to associate myself in politics, but I believe that this situation has gone way too far.
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Time and time we've seen that protests are hijacked by others to cause harm. Be it looting ot just fighting. And there have certainly been cases where it's been proven that these were outsiders that just took the opportunity given.
It's difficult to find out what's true and what's fake, and I don't know how objective/reliable justsecurity is (and who is behind it/who's funds are behind it, though it's based in the Reiss Center on Law and Security at New York University School of Law ), but if only part of it is true (like that 'umbrella man' vid, as he's definitely white)...
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Most Antifa members are whites who are against the Government and they have done attacks before and used fake accounts to try to blame anyone else.
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Property damage is not on the same level as murder though.
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True, but does that make it the right thing to do? No, it does not. Wrongs should be corrected, not piled up on top of with more wrongs. Unfortunately, those capable of stepping up and leading the way toward a peaceful and just solution have thus far failed to do so. Either that, or (more likely) the media is purposely keeping them out of the public eye.
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After researching more the protesters were upset (which I agree with) for the charges against the police. I noticed the protesters were moving in 1 direction towards a city hall or a specific building, the looters were behind as a separate group. National guard should have been protecting key areas which worked on Monday
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A key distinction is typically that looters stay as far away from police as possible and spend as little time as they can around witnesses, whereas protesters expect to be around police and want the opposite of discretion, they want to be heard.
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Thus far, those posting in this thread seem to be doing so in a reasonable manner. Ordinarily, we discourage political and/or religious debate due to the fact that many people find it difficult to have such discussions without letting their emotions spill over into the conversation. I am hoping that this thread continues to be a means for people to share opinions without fights breaking out. Should things go awry, however, and the drawbacks start to outweigh the benefits, I hope that you will pull the plug on your post before anyone in Support is required to do so.
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Thank you for not taking down the thread. If I being honest this thread has gotten much more attention then I expected it would and it has gotten away from me. Although I have been reading all the comments I have mostly stopped replying to them. I will try my best to keep track of the posts and I will delete the thread if need be. Thank you for keeping this an open platform for civil discussion.
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This is an excellent video and I second the recommendation. It is worth watching in its entirety, and towards the end he does a great job of addressing the very topic brought up by this thread.
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The problem here is that you're overlapping protesters with looters/rioters. A lot of the time, these are not the same people.
There is a profound amount of evidence for alt-right white nationalist groups infiltrating the protests and starting violence on purpose to discredit the protesters and diminish their message. Here in Houston, the police department found more than one occurrence of piles of bricks or rocks placed in scheduled protest areas long before the protest began. Hate groups are suspected of placing these, and police here have asked citizens to report any such caches that they find.
Yes, there are some opportunistic asshats who are using a critical moment in civil rights history to get free stuff or take out their rage on innocent people. They're criminals and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But there is also a lot of shady activity from groups that want the protests to fail, who feel that by inciting violence they can perhaps put a stop to needed progress in the area of true equal rights for all US citizens. Additionally, there have been dozens of cases where the protesters were peaceful until needlessly fired upon by the police, at which point the protest turned into a riot.
FWIW, I have cops in my family, so I do not hate the police. I know that, like with any other profession, there are good cops and bad cops. Unfortunately, in law enforcement, it's not acceptable to have any racist/violent/self-serving officers. They have to be held to a higher standard or everything breaks down. And, that has not happened up until now, which is largely why we have the situation we're in today.
So, I would ask that you please not confuse the people peacefully protesting with criminals inciting violence. They're very different people.
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i dont know how they could "POLICING" other country (ie shitting them and then just leave) but still manaed to fck up in his own backyard
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Honest question: are they actually the same to you?
I'm genuinely asking because in your post and in the comments you have plenty of strong words to condemn the protestors/rioters but gave only the most tepid of comments on Floyd's killer and no recognition to the larger context that these protests are clearly about. You say these are comparable injustices but you consistently seem to focus on the horrors of one and not the other. Why not speak adequately and meaningfully to both?
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Good question. The reason for this is because this post is supposed to be more aimed at the reckless rioters/looters that are causing sensless havoc. To be clear, yes I do believe these rioters (not including peaceful protesters) that are beating/murdering innocent people and burning down businesses are just as bad as Floyd's killer.
In terms of the larger context: I simply don't believe there is systemic racism in the United States. I think the fact that a black man held the most prestigious office in the free world helps to prove that. I don't believe police are racist against black people. In fact, I don't think Floyd was killed because he was black. There's no evidence of it. That being said I think peaceful protest is always a positive thing. A discussion is the best way to understand the other side of the conversation.
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What makes you think there is no systemic racism in the US? A black President? That's what you believe?
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So if a school has a black principal, there would be no racism in that school or its organizations? What about a CEO?
We are talking about the same President, yes? The same guy they still call a Muslim terrorist born in Kenya? You really think that everyone in this country has equal opportunity?
Is your name Don Jr, or Eric, or Barron?
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I think you should read more carefully. The fact that Obama won popular vote both times he ran is -->ONE (1) <-- piece of evidence that there is no systemic racism. Yes, I think that everyone has equal opportunity in this country. Please give me an example of where there isn't.
Please calm down, if you're going to start being rude I'm walking away.
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Why don't you elaborate on how you feel everyone has equal opportunity instead of making a point and asking me to refute it? That is not a logical way of debating.
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In this case, it would be on you to provide examples of how my opinion is wrong. I simply believe everybody is equal in terms of race. That's my opinion, if you feel its wrong then tell me why. I'm not here for a debate, I'm here for a discussion.
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You just shifted, capone wasn't refuting that all races are equal. They were saying that all races are not treated equally, and therefore not afforded equal opportunities.
To your opinion, believing that a given country's racism is "solved" due to the election of a black president, is rather ignorant.
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Again read carefully. Its -->ONE(1)<-- reason. I never said its the sole reason.
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You also never elaborated to explain any other point. You just shifted to suit another attack.
But, don't waste your breath in doing so now. It's taken me a minute to catch up on this thread, and you clearly revel in "discussing" in bad faith.
In terms of the larger context: I simply don't believe there is systemic racism in the United States.
You're free to believe this, but reality will continually speak volumes otherwise.
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Exactly.
One cannot be party to the problem solving discussion if they don't even think a problem exists. It's disingenuous at best.
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It's definitely not "racism solved" but it might be a sign systematic racism as thought of isn't there.
Does the lack of systematic racism mean llack of racism? No, it does not.
Personally i still think its the socio-economic factors, not race, since similar 'held back' things exist in many countries, regardless of race, to residents of poorer areas with little chance to afford high education and break the cycle. Which generally lead to higher crime rates in those areas.
The only difference i see with, say, France or the USA is the race. Making me suspect it ain't that but the things they DO have in common.
But that may be just me...
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Do you understand the logical concept of shifting the burden of proof?
That is like me claiming that Donald Trump is an alien from another dimension, and then I tell you to prove me wrong.
That's not logical and it's fine but I was hoping you would elaborate on why you believe that there is equal opportunity for all races in the USA when the overwhelming majority of studies done on statistical data suggest otherwise.
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"The same guy they still call a Muslim terrorist born in Kenya?"
If that is evidence of racism what would all the insults to Trump be qualified at?
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You are being facetious, and resorting to straw man arguments. You aren't asking yourself the right questions.
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You are being facetious, and resorting to straw man arguments.
It's Hassat's MO. Don't bend yourself over backwards trying to reason.
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Thanks for knowing me so well, apparently.
So sorry for trying to question what i see as flaws in an argument. Like a few stupid people being proof of systematic racism...
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No, i am just thinking why are the words of a few loonies = Proof of racism
When it seems another president got even more flak, not even being Black. Maybe presidents just garner such hate?
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Thanks for your response. I believe you're being genuine and acting in good faith, but I encourage you to consider how it can look like you're acting in bad faith when you repeatedly give comparable injustices incomparable condemnation. There are a lot of people out there right now willfully using a focus on rioting and looting as a way of overshadowing the injustice of Floyd's death. I don't know anyone who has watched the video of him dying who has been unmoved and unangered, so when I see someone online whose response is seemingly lukewarm at worst, I have to wonder if they have an ulterior motive. Again, I'm not saying this is how you specifically feel, I just want you to be aware of how it can come across to others.
As for not believing in systemic racism, that's a much taller order. Can I ask what makes you an authority on it? I find it hard to trust that viewpoint on it given that systemic racism has been one of the most well-documented and discussed topics in America for centuries now.
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I can see how people might view it that way and I don't mean to make it sound like I'm overshadowing Floyd's death. If I believed for a second that Floyd's killers were going to be let off the hook I would be out there protesting as well. I don't know what else to say about Floyd's death. All officers have been charged, justice has unofficially been served until they have been put in front of a jury. Cases like this can take months until a judge swings the hammer. I don't mean to sound like I'm writing the incident off but a new problem has come up in its place and it's taking more lives and destroying more families.
I'm not an authority in the slightest and I can even admit that I may have a slight bias because there is a long history of law enforcement in my family. Whenever I see a police-involved shooting on media/Facebook it's usually a 30-second video (cutting out the context of the situation) of a cop killing somebody and the person posting it fills in the blanks with there own version of the story. If you look into the comments of these types of posts it's filled with people saying "cops are pigs" and stuff like that. That shows me that people have formed an opinion about police with a 30-second video with no context. More than likely there is a reason that cops kill a suspect: They attacked police with a weapon, they acted like they were pointing a gun at police, they were endangering somebody else's life. This is why I always encourage people to wait for body camera footage or any sort of video to be released that shows the FULL situation before forming an opinion.
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I think most people can agree that the police officer that killed George Floyd is guilty but violent protests are the worst thing you can do. All I see now are videos of businesses being burnt down and looted that have NOTHING TO DO with the actions taken against George Floyd. It's sad to see a small business owners mangled corpse outside on the ground after being beat to death because he was trying to stop rioters from destroying his business. Honestly, I don't even think these people are rioting for George Floyd, I think it because they want an excuse to steal and harm others. Protest peacefully and be reasonable.
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