Hey SG community,

This topic has bothering me since my 10 years on steam celebration thread, so here we go.
I recently cleared my whitelist off of people that used the "Viva Dollar Bundle" (1$ spent = 62 CV) more than one time.

The main reason I have for this is this:

If you only gave the bundle away two times, you'd already be on SG level 4.
This completely destroys the economic of the levelsystem on SG, since the levels 1,2 and 3 (3 = 50 CV) are basically useless.
I mean, you could even get to level 5 with only spending five bucks if you'd carry it to extremes.

Speaking for myself, with my giveaways I'd always like to give something to the active, giving members of SG.
This users are making this site what it is. A nice place to win games, talk about games and share games with people (if you want to of course).

Nobody is forced to giveaway, I understand that. But are we really willing to live with a levelsystem as a criteria like this?
What about all those people on lvl 4-5 that spent maybe hundreds of bucks for that level and now share the same chance of winning a giveaway for lvl 4-5 with those peeps who invested 5 bucks to climb the ladder?
This isn't a problem for the "mid levels" only though, as you find tons of people on higher levels (like mine, 7+) that spammed the bundle aswell.
I decided to make Frostpunk a lvl 7+ giveaway - what for I wonder, it just doesn't reach the right recipients IMO.

I'm down for whitelist giveaways but to be honest I'd like to be able to give away to unknown users (outside of closed groups) aswell, such as invite only gibs in the discussions.
But the level criteria is completly useless as a standalone filter as of now. I could use the blacklist also, but that's not what I want to do, as it is a lot of spotting to do.
I know about tools like SGtools and stuff to set rules by myself, but is this really the way it should be handled? With an extension?

Also, the lovely talgaby stated in this thread that the won / sent ratio doesn't really cut it. You could have sent 500 games with a crapload of $bundled stuff and received only 50 AAA titles. Seems impressive - it is not.

We could keep the level system as it is, but I would need another filter / criteria to weed out the people who boosted their cvs massively.
Reduce the CV for $bundles after 1 time given away maybe? Maybe an "full / reduced / no value" given ratio?

Open discussion for everyone I guess, as I got no real "this is the way to go" solution atm.

TL;DR:
The levelsystem as it is now is, mostly on the lower ranks completly unbalanced and not a criteria you can use sensible.

Update 29th June: You can buy yourself to lvl 6 if you spent 10$ as of now. GG.

1 year ago*

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I wonder if all those russian (?) crappy grames that can be bought for cents are added to bundled games list. It would be much better way to farm CV.

1 year ago
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A lot of the shady ru shops are reported ... but i don't know if the support have done anything else then looking at it.
I hope. Thats enough invested time :o)

1 year ago
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Full ack!

Back when i started using SG´s (after getting over the thought of it being a scam lol) i only gave away good steam games, the ones i liked to play myself. Then reality set in, and as soon as i got paypal ready (laaate) started doing what everyone else did ... hence lowering the overall quality of games being given away. Ofc someones trash might always be someone elses treasure, but what really got me going was the Clickteam Fusion thingie being obviously exploited. From that moment on i might have spent a little too much time managing my blacklist, and wagering if giving away good games might be worth it at all..

I´d love to see ratio barriers put into place like some of you suggested, plus "do you even play bro" rules and whatnot.
Most of what sgtools has to offer would absolutely fit to be integrated into SG aswell.

1 year ago
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Yes and this blacklisting to me can not be the solution just because the main filter criteria aka the Level system is broken.

1 year ago
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Life is unfair, get over it

1 year ago*
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Ok, bye.

1 year ago
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No system is perfect, there will always be loopholes for people to abuse. It sucks to see users doing these $1 bundles to giveaway (not saying giving $1 bundles are bad, its just the relative value you get from some of it is too much) and get a relative massive cv boost , but meh you can't always do anything about them

1 year ago
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But isn't it worth discussing?

1 year ago
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Like carefree, I am nervous to voice my thoughts on some of the forums at times due to possible backlash.
I realise I have indeed bought bundles before to give away, but the main purpose was still to give and because there were games in there I still liked for myself. Didn't mean to exploit the system.

It's difficult for one catch all system to be in place and or moderated due to the sheer number of games in bundles and discounts daily. But I agree that perhaps slight tweaks to the system could make the site better. Maybe cv of some high quality, expensive bundles could be increased while cv of those massive cv bundles could be decreased. I'm not an expert at this, though.

I was also saddened to see myself being removed from your wl. I liked the comments you made with genuine kindness. But, I do understand somewhat, having experiencing both sides of the story.
Hope to see you around still, and perhaps one day we can be mutuals again. Hope you have a good day.

1 year ago*
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Hope not to see backlash here on anyone because that's not wanted at all.
Everyone using a handful of cheap bundles will have their reasons too it. The system is clearly exploitable so you can't really judge em. Maybe a CV increase like a bonus for unbundled games would raise giveaway quality overall.

1 year ago
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Maybe a CV increase like a bonus for unbundled games would raise giveaway quality overall.

The heresy! ;D

1 year ago
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CV bump! ;-)

1 year ago
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I'm curious whats your take on ppl that only made group ga with 10-20 entries, and won most similar ga themselves To me its worse than buying bundles because they inflate their cv without sharing with community at all.

1 year ago
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+1 this

1 year ago
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Hm that's a good point, but at least they really spent the money for those games. Devkey farming also is super annoying and on a level with dollarbundles. Don't know if I would call it worse, but it's close because there is absolutely no money spent.
The fact that autojoiners who contributed get banned and CV spamming is allowed is ultra annoying!

1 year ago
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and CV spamming is allowed

Those people are making giveaways. That's what this site revolves around. Please, don't lose sight of that. I don't believe they're comparable to autojoining, which is clearly against the rules.

1 year ago
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This. I think this is really selfish, and kinda against the spirit of this site. This people still enters public high level GA, and they are not spending money for gifts, It seems like receiving a price for trading.

1 year ago
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You might be right about that popo.

1 year ago
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eh, the vita bundle doesn't mean all that much to me, between the asterisks and the fact that closed gifting groups also count towards cv
<strike>(doesn't asterisk lock them at lvl 1? haven't been here in awhile, i'm assuming that changed based on your complaint unless that particular bundle never got marked?)</strike (ok, i've checked the (now old) rules change. points but at a reduced rate without non asterisked gifts seems fair enough to me)>


people giving away unwatned bundle parts are at least still contributing to the site, closed giveaways in private groups do not. if anything I'd see private giveaways and 1:1 ratio groups as the actual problem here. they're just getting cv for trading among themselves to then enter public giveaways as if they were high level contributors.



(not that it matters to me, i don't exactly have a high score so i don't really care. but sitll)

1 year ago*
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If i had enough spare time, I would be building another system on another website.

The system of the site should be using "credits". You would be starting with a free amount of credits. Whenever you win a "giveaway" you pay credits for the game - the amount of credits the games costs depends on how many entries the giveaway had - One credit per entry. The credits is taken from your account the moment you win the game. The host of the giveaway will be getting the credits. If the key is somehow invalid or something the winner may report key as invalid, but there will be no return of the credits spent. The giveaway owner will maybe lose 50% of the credits or something, and will be banned if too many giveaway keys are marked as invalid... The same applies to the person reporting the invalid key, too many invalid key reports and you're out... The only way you can get more credits is to giveaway some game. When the giveaway ends and some of the entries don't have enough credit to pay for the giveaway, the entry with the lowest amount of credit will be removed, and the cost of the giveaway is reduced by one. The system keeps removing the entry with the lowest amount of credits until everyone has credits enought to pay for the game.

1 year ago*
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Feel free to use my idea. But if you do, please tell me - i'll gladly join your new site or maybe helps developing it :)

1 year ago
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If I would be able to, I may try. But I'm not so.. ;)

1 year ago
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wasn't that how indiegala did it before their site died?

1 year ago
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hmm, so is there any new news on that famous Wieme Bluehearts Group?
Or, perhaps, if you don't want to make your own group why not join a group (of course only if the people in it do the right things, forn instance one of the "non-bundled" giveaway groups could be the right thing for you.

But as said in the giveaway-comment: when i can apply to the rules (financialy) then i would be interested in joining if there is ever a wieme bluehearts group!

1 year ago
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No, not yet. Popocho pointed out a little above, that closed groups are kinda a matter of it's own. Because people tend to give "good" games to those closed groups, level up with those CV and still enter high level public gibs and win them.
Maybe some group ratio thing would be cool to prevent from giving away in groups only. ;)
But come to think of it, I use my WL a lot, too. So that would kinda hurt my WL people an me aswell.

1 year ago
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So punishing others for their way of farming CV is fine as long as they don't touch your way?

1 year ago
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Nope, as I said, I use the WL myself a lot which - in the end - is nothing different from groups. Okay, maybe because I choose the people it is a little different but anyway. I'm primarily concerned about those "CV loop" groups with like 10 members.

1 year ago
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okay, well, then lets keep it the way it is?
or special group ratio with public gibs?
Well either way i'm fine with it.
Just keep your way of doing things. ;)

1 year ago
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Ha, I'm guilty of farming that exact bundle myself . No excuses here ;)

As for the CV, I agree that the system is far from perfect. All of these dollar bundles giving large amounts of CV are an issue, but I think the underlying problem is that the quality of Steam and the games that are allowed on their playform has gone waayy downhill over the last couple of years.

There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread, but I'm most partial to talgaby's suggestion of getting rid of CV altogether. Unfortunately, any change to the CV system (even ones far less drastic than abolishing it altogether) are going to create a lot of backlash, and drive people away from the site. Just look at how many people were upset or left when the points system was changed. The community here has already lost a lot of regular members, and this sort of change would not help the situation.

A tiered CV system might be an ok compromise, but then you're adding a whole lot of extra work for staff who already have a huge backlog. And you'd have to come up with an arbitrary system to determine it's % value.. if a game is in a super cheap bundle, do you reduce CV that has already been earned? Regional pricing differences make the equation even more complicated. Reducing CV for multiple copies sounds good at first consideration, but then you're drastically reducing the incentive for multiple copy giveaways which are often really good games.

Anyways, it's good to have this kind of discussion and try to evaluate potential solutions. I know you've said you don't want to depend on external tools, but I think that groups such as Playing Appreciated, Unlucky-7, custom SGTools, and your wishlist are currently your best bet for prioritizing a better winner for your giveaways.

1 year ago
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No worries man, I never wanted anyone to be judged by creating the thread. Just wanted to point out, that the system itself is kinda faulty.

I don't remember what the point system change was about, how did that drive people away? Cause they didn't have mooooore chances to win games?

And thanks for your thoughts Andrewski, appreciated.

1 year ago
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I blacklisted some guys the "gave" each other popcap bundle years ago (I presume before they instituted the minimum 5 entries rule). People who have exploited to boost their levels like that should be banned or at least have their levels reset. I'd post who they are but I'm pretty sure that's against site rules.

1 year ago
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Bump! Still up for discussion.

11 months ago
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Bumpo one more time, because Fanatical brought the viva bundle back.

11 months ago
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ratio and level both are considered for my <3 - you already there ofc

11 months ago
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No reactions yet on the CV thingy from cg. Damn.

What about adding a $ RV / $ CV ratio just to set as a filter for giveaways?
The variable is there, and it should be possible to code rather easy.
I know I am able to do this by SGTools but I don't want to use it if I don't have to.

11 months ago
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The cv farming $ Bundles are back again....... YEAH sarcasm
0 cv for all over 1 or 2 copies are needed for such bundles. All other don't help.

11 months ago
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We need a new category for SGT, DBCV. Then it would be easy to check how big of a % of CV came from Dollar Bundles and use it as a rule as well.

11 months ago
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DBCV = ?

11 months ago
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Isn't it quite obvious when we're talking about Contribution Value from Dollar Bundles :)

11 months ago
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It was not but after the explanation it was :o)

11 months ago
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Dollar Bundle Contributor Value, I guess.

11 months ago
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Sounds nice! 50% of CV by DB? Nooooo access.

11 months ago
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+9000
!!!! GIGANTIC IDEA !!!!

11 months ago
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!!!! GIGANTIC IDEA !!!!

with a % of the cv are from DBCV. That as a rule that can be set and with one stroke you can hold all out that use it "too much" for your taste.

Would be great when you make that as a own suggestion (maybe seen then better/from more)

11 months ago
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On a side note, while reading the discussions here, I can understand why people feel this way (the same way I feel when someone who gives no games and only wins, wins my giveaway), but it makes me really sad.

As a person struggling with poverty, I got so excited to see those cheap bundles, thinking I could give something back, get some CV and still not mess up my own life in the process. I'm not trying to complain or make anyone angry (though I'm aware some might see it that way).

The truth is...I am spending a lot of time and eyeing what little money I have, trying to figure out a good giveaway to do. When I can't struggle to even afford the necessities. The more time I spend around here, the more I start to feel...I dunno, a little down. Because I thought I WAS being generous and kind of giving something back. I see a ton of people winning many games and giving nothing. So dollar and sale bundles seemed like a good way to compromise.

But now I am learning a little that people are annoyed by that and don't like it at all. So I am eyeing all the keys I have sitting around and wondering...well, would it be better to give nothing at all? I don't know.

It seems people have different feelings on this, but some of them are definitely that bundle buyers are somehow 'scamming' the system. I didn't see it like that at all, I was simple excited to have an affordable way to give back.

Maybe that can be hard to understand if you have the spare budget to buy bigger games.

I love to give stuff away, I love to treat my friends, but lately I have had to learn that I cannot always do that...and still I struggle against it. So what can those of us with almost no budget do?

I don't know if there's a good answer to that. Sorry for the rambling, somewhat negative, comment!

11 months ago
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No matter what you do, it will annoy someone. So better to accept it, stop caring and just give what you can.

11 months ago
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Too true. Well, maybe at least with my comment some people will realise it is not all bad intentions. If people don't frequent the boards here, they probably don't even realise it's frowned upon...or that it's been given away multiple times. I had no idea the bundle was a frequent offender!

11 months ago
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Hi,
i looked closer into your Giveaways and wonder myself why you see yourself in a bad light after the discussion here.
You give DIFFERENT stuff away. Yes 1 copie of a $1 Bundle that give good cv too.
The "bad guys" give 5 copies+ (i see a "good" ammount with 10 or 20 copies...), not only from one cv strong Bundle -mostly from all-, only this GA's, nothing else, and that normaly for years (not all fits by the last point but the most of them).
And from my own experiences are the most of them not interested or capable to write such a long text and spend thoughts on it like you.

So from my point of view you don't must make yourself a bad feeling about giving away a cheap (must not be a bad one because it is cheap) bundle that gives a good ammount of cv too. And not over your GA's in general.
You are far away from the people that are "the problem" for a part of us :o)

I hope my words take you away from the "down feeling" I am sure none of us want make the people feels down and lift you up to a good feeling.

Have a nice Weekend

11 months ago
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Thank you for the kind words. I am definitely in my own struggle right now, so I guess it was just the shock of realising I was giving away something people might not think is very good or even want! I had no idea about the level of abuse or repeats of the bundle that had been going on, so it was a big surprise.

I am absolutely sure nobody here wanted to make people feel bad, but I did want to make sure there is an awareness that many people struggle financially and not everybody who gives bundle games is just here for a free ride, but merely excited to take part in the community!

You definitely made me feel a lot better, but I can definitely understand why you would feel irritated at people who abuse the bundles or otherwise game the system, it's a tricky balance.

Enjoy your weekend too!

11 months ago
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Deleted

This comment was deleted 2 months ago.

11 months ago
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I like to do giveaways, I just don't want to make people more unhappy than happy. I like to think when I do a giveaway, it makes people smile, not makes them stressed out. So I was hoping to make people aware that not everyone doing cheap giveaways is just trying to get a leg up, I'm sure (I hope) there are many out there like me.

I am struggling for money, but I use the extra 'pocket' money I make from testing work to do giveaways, as opposed to buying something for myself, so it's ok right now.

I will definitely do a big giveaway when I am well enough to return to work though :) I appreciate it

11 months ago
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Don't feel sad about it Wonder.
I just made this thread for discussion about the level (and bundle cv) system.
First of all, nobody here is forced to create giveaways, that's just not how it works I'm fine with that.
I strongly hope you are not messing up anything in your life if you buy giveaways and take care of your self first! Seriously, don't spent anything on games if you can't afford it. There's just no need to do it!
I like your attitude, that's what got you in my blueheartclub - I see your reasoning behind the $ bundle - give them away, you are not the only one doing it, don't feel sad about it, really!

11 months ago
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Thanks <3 It's just my sensitivity showing again.

I'm definitely NOT messing up my life, don't fret. I just have to be careful. Often my love of helping people or doing nice things gets carried away and I can't afford to have that happen right now, so I just have to be strict. Luckily, I'm pretty good at getting deals and freebies in other areas of my life, so I can make a little to spare for giveaways, I just can't go wild.

I also have a small amount of card-farming money I can use in the sale to get something small and nice for a GA ;)

Sorry if I made you worry or made you sad in any way! I love that we can all have reasoned discussions about this stuff. So please don't stop talking about this stuff just because you're worried you might hurt somebody, but definitely do be aware that not everyone has bad intentions for this stuff, if that makes sense.

11 months ago
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With all those dolly jolly bundles poppin up back again, you can reach lvl 6 by spending 10$ today. GG Levelsystem.

View attached image.
11 months ago
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Lets revive this a wee bit, mostly because I'm salty about being kicked from Level 5.04 ("yay, finally here, lets plan some GA's!") back down to 4.50, because changing CV afterwards is fun.

10 months ago
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That's what comes for giving games from a bundle that is not fully unveiled, and unsure if it will pass the bundling threshold or not.

10 months ago
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So youre saying people should wait for the full reveal and only give it away if it "will pass the bundling threshold"?

I'd like to give games away without a backlash, it was obvious that the 3 games were included, so why not reduce the value immediately. And its not only about them. If you gave a game away in 2015 and it gets bundled tomorrow, you still lose points

10 months ago
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Then just do what many already do: treat all your giveaway as reduced value, even if they are not on that list yet.

10 months ago
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I had no idea about this strategy. Thats a great tip, I'll keep it in mind for next time. Thanks :)

10 months ago
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No, I'm saying that if you jump into risky business, then won't be surprised that it will turn out slightly badly. What else could it be? Early unlock unbundled while everything else is bundled? How would it be fair at any level?
edit: would be fair if every unlock would be added to the bundle list, and removed if the bundle doesn't reach 95% discount. Maybe that would silence the complainers, mandatory 1 month bundled state, but yaay, maybe it will be unbundled afterwards.

'd like to give games away without a backlash, it was obvious that the 3 games were included, so why not reduce the value immediately.

You know it is MSRP-based, not how many games were uncovered.

If you gave a game away in 2015 and it gets bundled tomorrow, you still lose points

Not true at all, it counts bundled starting from the date of it being bundled.

Get a grip on and think what are you complaining and acting like a victim, while spreading false information.

10 months ago
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Dont remember complaining, but sure.If people can't even be wrong without be accused of seeing himself as a victim or being accused of spreading false information then I'd rather not talk to you. I don't need your negativity, nor your accusations.
Please refrain from talking to me, so we both have a better time on this site. Thanks :)

10 months ago
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Dont remember complaining

mostly because I'm salty about being kicked from Level 5.04 ("yay, finally here, lets plan some GA's!") back down to 4.50, because changing CV afterwards is fun.

Nice victim act about having enough of my accusations. Same with not knowing how the system works, but even making up examples of how it is (not) working. It's not negativity if I point out how wrong you are. That is just reality. How about instead of being upset you actually look after the shit you're spreading on the forums? Other people aren't here for 4 years, and made-up stuff like that can be harmful for them.
And after this, you're very well free to ignore me or reality, if any of us make you uncomfortable.

10 months ago
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Come on, stop trolling. Unfortunetly for you, you're dealing with a Troll-veteran. I admit, it took me your second reply to realise, but now I look through your masquerade.

Good attempt, please continue if it makes your lonely saturday better! :)

10 months ago
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Whatever floats your boat mate, what you said, you said.

10 months ago
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So saying how things actually work is trolling? If you're not complaining, stop saying you're salty. Which is a stupid term anyways, salt tastes good and has been so important that it's been used as currency. Bitter or even sour is what they are trying to say.

10 months ago
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No, please don't get me wrong Starwhite. I came here for advice and tips, and I even got what I wanted from talgaby. I am also happy to be corrected and would apologize for being uninformed. But when I instantly get accused of stuff I never intended and called out by the bloke above, I won't sit there and be apologetic.
I appreciate all corrections, but you can correct me without being a dick.

And you're right, "salty" is an overused, bad word. But it's meaning is correct here. I was bitter about the circumstances, while I can accept and tolerate them. To say it metaphorically, I expected the salty taste. That's why I'm not complaining.

10 months ago
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People can easily overreact and read more into what others say than is meant. It's also better to calmly correct them, no apologing is needed. That way there is a small chance that people will get on the same page.

10 months ago
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What if CV got split into two categories? A somewhat double leveling system. One CV for giving away bundled games and another CV for fully priced games.

10 months ago
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Then the level 7+ list of users of the non-bundled CV portion would suddenly look like as if you applied a strange skin on vKontakte. =)

10 months ago
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That made me chuckle. But it may be true already no? Not sure as I don't keep track and there is no filtering user list by level.

10 months ago
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It is mostly true, but the generic high-level scene right now is rather diverse.

10 months ago
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What does that look like? Just curious :)

10 months ago
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i feel that the best way is to get back the amount based on what u give out (real CV), also bundled games for every second copies onwards, the price should be drop to 1 cents?? idk. it will be quite funny and if people wants to farm, they can still do it but at a losing end, it also helps to ensure games are still given out.

so if you cannot go above the amount that u have given out, helps prevent leeching etc

10 months ago
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The problem with 'real CV' is its not even close to being accurate as to how much someone realistically spent. In order for it to be accurate the best way would probably be to take the lowest ITAD value at the time of the giveaway, and any games in a bundle (including Humble Monthly) take the cost of the bundle and divide it by the number of games included. Even that is obviously far from accurate, but it would be a lot closer then what we have right now.

10 months ago
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