Obviously if she says no she either wants to split the pay or she wants to pay for herself. If she offers to pay herself say to split it, or if she says she wants to pay because you want to pay, say it'll be fair to split it.
Meaning... since you want to pay offer to pay. If she's all good about wanting you to pay then problem solved!
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Better not to offer, just do it without mentioning, and if she says anything then split. If you offer to pay all by yourself it wouldn't be so comfortable to agree to the offer.
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yah, dont be a pussy, just pick up the tab, its not a big deal. you honestly shouldnt have to ask others on the net for this.
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Why is that bobo? I mean. Why should you assume the whole cost? I mean. I don't know, if I went out with someone and unless we are really good friends and not simple acquiantances I'd be offended if I wouldn't be let to pay my part.
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Well, I don't know you but I don't really like accepting things from people. It kind of puts me on debt and I don't fancy owing anyone anything for as much as I can.
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My gf is the same way. I just tell her to get over it.
But for a first date, it's not about doing the "gentleman/chivalrous" thing, it's about showing them that I'm an unselfish person. If the gender roles were reversed I'd still want to pay for both.
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This begins a game of tug of war which ends with them printing a new bill sometimes O_O.
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Right, I forgot the tug of war...in that case whoever has the larger chunk gets the new bill undisputed. If it tears cleanly in half then as a tiebreaker whoever has the firmest handshake. If this is also a tie then it reverts to the battle of whose more stubborn solnaga mentioned.
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Try to assume it all by yourself, and if she saying anything against it don't argue and split the cost.
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+1, if you ask her to pay for the whole dinner she'll obviously say "hey, no, what are you doing, let's split". So you should split only if she clearly declares she wants to pay at least her part. If you notice that she's hesitant, or undecided, be assertive and pay for both.
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tell her beforehand you're paying for the dinner to avoid the awkward situation when the bill arrives, its also the gentlemanly thing to do !
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What is the gentlenmanly rule book? I mean I'm pretty sure women are no damisels in distress. Don't you consider being a gentleman a dated (badumtss) thing? An anachronic way of behaving?
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I don't see women as damsels in distress neither did I say that at any point, but I do believe there is a right way and a wrong way to treat women. If you like someone you SHOULD go out of your way to make them feel special, there is nothing wrong with it... There isn't a single woman in the world who doesn't like a gentleman, they are a dying breed. Also the word you are looking for is "archaic" behavior =]
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Anachronic
I was looking for the word I used, but thanks anyways.
I never said you claimed that they were damisels in distress. But I did hint that maybe the gentleman way of behaving kind of suggest that. And well, there are many ways of making someone feel special and trust me, at least as far as I am concerned paying for a dinner isn't one.
Also do I have no right to feel special? I would love to too.
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"Anarchonic" doesn't relate to behavior but inanimate things such as culture etc =/ Paying for Dinner is a gesture, I'd never let a woman pay for dinner on a date, neither would I let them pay for anything else. Of course there are different ways but these simple gestures go a long way when it comes to establishing a basis for a relationship. I'm pretty sure if you let your date pay for their own entertainment it wouldn't leave a good impression. OFC you have the right to feel special, Here's a cookie =)
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How's that? I didn't see any notes of usage nor anything of the sort. I thought I could apply adjectives to whichever nouns I wanted to.
Thanks for the cookie :D
Also I don't really think that not letting someone pay for anything wil make them feel nor be special.
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You can throw adjectives around you to your hearts content, if they make sense in conjunction with what you're trying to say is another question (eg. a violent spoon as to a violent individual). Again, it's a gesture and if you think that women don't appreciate or remember these things then you have a lot to learn. For me it is just common courtesy, for you it might not be, but seeing as you don't seem open to suggestion I'll just wish you the best of luck on your date and be on my merry way.
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IMNSHO, describing a gesture, a sub-culture or someone's behaviour, as anachronic/anachronistic is correct use of language and makes perfect sense.
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Well, I wouldn't dare to contradict our linguist friend :p
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I yet fail to see how on earth anachronic cannot be applied to a behaviour.
How's that I have a lot to learn? Because I don't want to follow or haven't been raised in the same patterns of social behaviour as you do?
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Actually no, most women expect you to behave like a gentleman. They would expect you to open the door for them or basically give of your time and do small things for them, it kinda shows that you care. They may joke about it, telling you that you dont have to do such things or whatever but deep down that's what they want from you. And frankly it really doesnt hurt to do those small things if you want to leave a good impression.
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There are other ways of caring that being their babysitter. One thing is to be polite and well mannered but I think that putting my coat on puddles for her to step in is a bit too much.
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All the girls I actually knew seemed to be winging it awkwardly anyway and only expected one way or the other based on what they assumed I would expect(so basically exactly what I was doing and what you're worried about doing)so doesn't seem like either way actually matters to them any more than it'd bug you if she had the reflexes to grab it first.
But I think the odds say you'd probably be expected to pay on a date and it'd be her role to speak up if not. So I'd go with that.
Of course if it isn't a date(wasn't clear) just treat her as male and only pay for your own food as usual(or test reflexes on who can grab first, rps, split it evenly, draw straws or alternate meals, or the inviter pays...whatever it is you normally do with your other friends) since in that context gender ought not enter into it.
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I'd have a hilariously awkward conversation about it before hand, suggesting that it isn't my intention to be patronising but that I rather feel the need to pay for the food and that if she is that insistent of being an independent woman she can, at a later date, reimburse you with a meal or outing of equivalent value.
Then, she thinks you're funny for being such an awkward but thoughtful tithead, and you've sealed a second date on her! WIN WIN!
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Why do you have that feel, mercer? I mean do you also pay when you go out with friends? Or is it an exclusive thing for dates?
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I do it with friends also, yes. It's not simply a measure I reserve to show off to the opposite sex.I just like to be generous.
Part of it is probably that I think anyone who wants to spend time with me probably deserves some compensation for their pain.
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That's always been my logic. I've always been the one to pickup the check when I go out to dinner with friends and/or family. Moreso back when I had credit cards, though. Living within my means isn't as much fun, but it provides its own satisfaction.
Offering to let her pay for the second date is a good idea and its one I've heard before, although I don't seem to get many second dates.
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i know that feeling too well... most of my long-time online gaming friends have received a gift at one point or another. (cosmetics mostly)
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just be frank and explain this awkward situation to her, very much like you explained it to us.
if you don't want to do that, then insist to pay for both of you. if she insist to split the cost or to pay for you, then consent and tell her that you got it next time.
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1) You invite - you pay, that's the proper thing to do. It has nothing to do with emancipation, independence, patriarchy and all that blah blah blah.
2) If a woman doesn't want to see you again, she'll insist on paying her part of the bill on the first date. If she NEVER wants to see you again, she'll pay all of it ;)
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Why is that? Where is that logic derives for? I've always splitted costs with previous relationships and well, we did get to a point where we didn't want to see each other again, but it took a bit longer.
Also, who dictates that paying is the right thing to do? Could you please explain further that? :)
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The guy makes sense. If you're inviting someone out, you are asking for them to take time out of their life to spend it with you, and as such, you should be paying. As for part 2, I don't know about that. Maybe that last part makes sense, depends on what kind of woman it is.
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It's all a method of trade. You ask people for their time, you reward them with food and drinks. Goes for first dates, as well as your friends at the pub. If you invite people for barbecue or dinner at your place, you don't expect them to bring their own food, do you? So why should restaurants be any different?
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Oh so I'm buying their time? That sounds awful in so many ways.
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No. You aren't buying their time or rewarding them (edit: in the literal meaning; I just woke up, I'm sorry), you are thanking them for their generosity and good will.
Time is insanely important. It's the most valuable thing you can give to someone; time is personal and priceless.
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I agree with this logic. If you invite someone to spend time with you, you should be willing to pay for the meal. If the other person really wants to pay, you could have them cover the drinks/movie/whatever after dinner. Besides, regardless of any outdated ideas of patriarchal traditions, its just nice to have someone buy you dinner sometimes.
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"If a woman doesn't want to see you again, she'll insist on paying her part of the bill on the first date. If she NEVER wants to see you again, she'll pay all of it ;)"
So false, had a gf that insisted on paying for me the first date, we dated for over a year. Nothing is as black and white as you make it seem....
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I agree with part one of this statement. when you invite someone out, and you want to do something with them that requires money it is usually good to at least offer to pay for them. financial limitations are a thing everyone lives with, and its possible that your friend may just not be able to do that - but really wants to go spend time with you. we've all spent money to do things that we couldn't afford to do just so we can be with our friends, and it always makes the experience less fun. usually it gets discussed beforehand. especially if it is something costly, at least in my case.
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I though that gentlemanliness was related to manners and the grade of civism you showed. Nothing to do with paying dinners.
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If it were me, when the bill comes I say I will pay, or I just simply take the bill from the waiter/waitress giving it to the two of you. If the girl doesn't say anything, then I guess she doesn't mind if you pay for her as well. If she speaks up, try to assess whether she's trying to earnestly help out and split the cost or something. If she gives up after a single sentence then I would think she actually wants you to pay.
I say this because I have no problems paying the bill for the meal on a first date. It's just the kind of guy I am, because I feel the need to pay for what I can because I am able to. I guess in a way it's me showing that I can afford to live my life and have extra to spend as well, so I'm just trying to show off really. However, if that isn't your style, then you have to work out how you want to do things.
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Before sleeping with her (be honest, that's what you want to do ultimately, right?), you PAY. Just choose a restaurant you can afford.
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Why is that? Aren't you somehow then buying her time and/or ultimately her love? I'd feel that way if I was a woman.
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But I'm an omega male. Or an Omega watch. I don't really know anymore.
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How does you anarchist ideology adress this problem?
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I like to pay when the dinner is emotionally important to me, it's like giving a gift for me. Makes me feel a bit of a gentle man. But I never push, since some women treat it like they being bought. So if she says nothing, I pay, and if she insists, we split the bill.
I've only once had woman paid for me, but she was a close friend, we gave each other a lot in both material and inmaterial way, and I knew she wanted to do that just for the same reasons I mentioned above. It was nice and didn't made me feel uncomfortable in any way.
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This is a community. We are allowed to expand beyond mere games. I'm sorry you can't.
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He can teach the girl to play games.
The girl may also be a game player already.
He buys her dinner. She buys him games.
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Ray Charles the whole thing. When the bill arrives pretend you're blind and walk out. Either that or play dead :)
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Well, when you will have to pay the dinner, while she's going to grab the money from her pocket you should just say to her that there's no need for her to pay, and that you will be the one that will offer it.
And if she will say something than you will answer with something like "Today I'm paying the dinner and the next time, if you want, you can offer me a drink".
If she refuse it, you should say almost the same thing -> "Ok, then the next time i'll offer you something to drink/eat/etc..."
Could this work for you? :P
(Yeah, well use your words and be gentle XD )
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To be honest is not an actual situation but more like an hypothesis so we could discuss a little bit. Thanks for your advice though, cheers :D
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First of all, I would be clear with her that this is just a dinner-date. (Personally, I would make it a double-date, but that's just me.) After that, I would be sure to set her expectations so that she is neither surprised nor disappointed.
1) I will be picking up the tab. If she insists on contributing, she can pay the tip.
2) She is free to order anything under <some high price limit>. I pick a place where I can afford to pay 3-4x the cost of her meal.
3) I make reservations (if appropriate) and have a backup plan. Our first choice being closed shouldn't end the evening.
4) I don't pressure her with my own expectations. This is a casual date. If it turns out well, I can always schedule another.
5) If I promise to call her later, I let her know when to expect my call and CALL HER ON TIME. The #1 complaint women have is not that a guy doesn't call but that he doesn't call when he promised to. If you're not going to call her, then just thank her for the evening and leave it at that.
Why do I do it this way? Because women have certain rights on men, even if the woman is ignorant of those rights or chooses not to claim them. A real man treats women well.
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If she doesn't believe in tipping, then I will do the tipping. That is if tipping is even appropriate. In some locations, or even in some kinds of restaurants, tipping is not appropriate.
If she wants to make a speech, it will happen long before the date when we are setting the date up. I will listen to her speech, acknowledge the validity of her opinion, and then politely remind her that I am taking her out ergo we will be playing by my rules. She is free to decline my invitation. If she were the one asking me out, she would be dictating the rules.
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I don't like your style. I'm more of making things on the run and having everything ruined then improvising something crazy. But well, to each its own.
And why women hace certain rights? I thought we were all equal. I respect everyone equally disregarding their sex or any other condition.
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Every person has his or her own style. Do what works for you.
Regarding men and women, however, I must disagree. Whatever else men and women may be, they are definitely not "equal." They are different. The same applies to individuals, with each person being different from every other. It is those differences between us which make each person so important to the rest of society. Part of respecting the individual is treating him or her fairly and justly in accordance with his or her circumstances. To treat everyone the same without regard to circumstance is to practice oppression.
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I thought I was being clear, but perhaps not. I am saying both things. My reply was directed at what was said about "disregarding their sex or any other condition," so I responded to both "men and women are equal" and "everyone is equal."
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No, it is because men are responsible for the protection and provision of women. It is their right as women. That is true whether you want a friendship or a relationship, but Orpi seems not to subscribe to that philosophy.
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No, because they shouldn't have to do it themselves. Women have enough to deal with without having to shoulder the responsibilities of their menfolk, too. Compared to that of women, a man's list of responsibilities is short.
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just because it would be helpful to apply this data you've already supplied in other situations...do you mind stating your gender, age and current sarcasm level?
yeah, for males its mostly just working your whole life(you get used to it) and being generally disposable whenever called for. If somebody's got to die its males. and thats easy enough. at least you only have to do it once.
females have to do all that cooking and child raising and stuff which is all so much more complicated. Even daily maintenance is this whole process for them, you've got this whole ph thing and spontaneous bleeding to deal with.
then again at least they never accidentally sit on their own genitals and become temporarily incapacitated and barely able to breath. so it more or less balances out as far as the physical inconveniences.
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Even if you don't frequent the forums enough to already know, my gender and age are obvious. My sarcasm level is currently at zero, a fact which is also obvious. The fact that you are not bothering to consider my words, nor sharing your own opinions and reasoning, would seem to indicate your line of questioning is argumentative rather than engaging. If that is true, then I am saddened you don't take the subject of social niceties as seriously as you should.
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its really more laziness than arguing.
Mostly if I come into contact with such information about others on a forum it is immediately disregarded as irrelevant so if I read it I forgot, and I genuinely don't feel like looking for it. It would help put advise in context is all.
but to be argumentitive and trollish(Because that really would be more fun):
Are you like 70? If male(which I assume all on the internet actually are, even if you answer to the contrary unless pix are provided(and usually especially then since such proof is easy to come by digitally)) I'm picturing either a 1920s newyork "radio guy" clipped voice, or a modern version of the southern "gentlemanly" accent. not the redneck one, the plantation one.
But if female I'm thinking either 40+ (whatever age the older uglier and more aggressive variant of cougar is), and that obnoxious jersey voice. the really piercing shrill one. but like on its 4th glass of wine...at lunch...kind of voice.
Or(and this ones a stretch) maybe 16 and oversheltered but still from newjersy, probably with a mercadies. edit- google search says I'm thinking of the "jap" accent which has nothing to do with asians. "real housewives" accent if you've ever seen that show.
See, every voice in my head has its own silly accent and i was trying to find yours.(you're all voices in my head btw)
(and now you sir must call me hitler(this is how such things go, its down to etiquette so I'll be offended if you don't. I actually take social niceties quite seriously....its just the wrong set of them))
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LOL
Well, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but none of those voices fit me. ) Try thinking of a calm voice like the one your grandfather uses when he's trying to get you to examine your assumptions about the world and whether or not you truly believe them.
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They are attracted to males. Some women told me they even check out men's butts (just like us! checking these fine cheeks of beautiful women, DAYUMMM). But I know you don't know it, 'cause UR A VIRGINZ AND U ONLEE PLAY GAEMZ AND SURF TEH INTERNETS!!!
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If you want a backwards 1950s attitude, you should talk to orpi.
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least the 50s had clear rules...its just chaos and uncertainty now.
Do I wear a hat? will she unexpectedly bitch at me for holding the door or am I still supposed to do that? is it still "women and children first" or did the braburners make it pc to trample the skirts(or is it dames?) on my way to a fire exit? is it good or bad for her selfesteem for me to slap a female coworker on the ass and tell her she's pretty. ect.
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Wear whatever you want. If she bitches at you for holding the door, turn around and walk away, she's a nut who apparently views basic politeness as oppression. It's vulnerable people first (old, ill, children, pregnant women, etc) if possible, but don't worry if it's not, but that doesn't mean it's okay to trample over anyone, that just makes you a dick. And that's up solely to the woman and the level of comfort you both have around each other.
These life lessons brought to you by Common Sense, Incorporated.
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yeah, but in the 50s(or was it 30s? I get them mixed up) it was:
yes
no, in fact you have to
men die if necessary, and likely expected to shoot any who try to trample. death is to be faced with manly composure
good
so much easier.
also you could and were almost expected to smoke anywhere. Except inside a computer, which you could probably actually climb into, which means cellphones didn't exist so technology was just convenient enough to help but not so convenient to be annoying. And it wasn't racist to hate your enemies. dirty commie bastards.
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If you wanna be a sucker listen to this post.
:-D
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If you pay for her, you're a sexist douche cause you're implying that women are dependable on men.
But f you let her pay, you're implying that you're better than her and it's below your level to pay for her meal. So that makes you a sexist douche again.
Either way you lose
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The winning move is to pretend to receive an important phone call, making it sound like you are a secret agent and your cover has just been blown, after which you jump out of the window. She has to pay, but she can't possibly blame you as you clearly have more important matters to worry about.
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Well. So I reciently met this girl I quickly got on well with and we are going to have dinner like some day next week. So now I do have a problem. Should I pay for the dinner? I mean it's not as if I was a cheap person which I am not. But on the other hand, she as an independent women might feel offended if I tried to impose that patriarcal way of acting on her. As to be honest, wouldn't if be somehow like buying her? I mean. It seems more like a trade than a moment to enjoy if I paid.
I mean, I think that the most sensitive thing to do might be to evenly split the cost among us two. But well, it might be violent to raise that topic in the discussion, specially if she's reluctant to pay.
What would you do if you were if my place? And why? Would you let her pay all the meal? split the cost? assume it all by yourself? In wich way does your local customs and/or culture affects that view?
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