Pirating, what should be the result?
Well if i were 12 year old bub and had access to internet, that's about a thread + poll i'd make ...
still surprised how many people bother to explain themselves.
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I literally pirated everything I could back in the days of C64 and Amiga. Later I owned practically every game available on PSX. Continued my pirating quest on PC and Xbox360.
Why? Simply because it was so damn easy and I did not have much to spent on gaming (invested little money I had left on hardware on partying). Why spent the little money I had on something that you could get for free?
Even made quite some money by selling cds with games (I was one of the 1st guys at college who bought a cd recorder). Maybe you guys heard of the Twilight cdroms? Goldmine.
I stopped downloading about 7 years ago I guess. Havent downloaded a single game after that. Why? I have the money now. And less time to play. And ofcourse Steam.
Was it wrong to pirate? Yes it was. Do I feel any guilt? Not really no. Do I judge other people for pirating? That would be hypocritical wouldnt it?
I did vote "let them play" because all of the other options felt stupid. No offence
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Went through the same route as You, except the selling games part. Now that I can afford a selected few games a year (and don't have time to play with more than those anyway), I buy them, and haven't pirated anything since I joined steam 3 years ago. Not feeling guilty and not judging others for pirating. Support the creator if and when You can afford it.
edit: grammar
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Dude, seriously, downloading a game for you own personal use is one thing, most of s did it at some time, but selling pirated copies of games...that's just a NO NO. Glad you stopped doing this, but you should feel bad about it...
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Just realise I'm talking about the mid 90's, it were different times back then. There was no internet. Whilst you can download everything you want at this time in the 90s you had to know people to get your warez. It was 1:1 copying.
I'm not proud at making money with selling warez, but it was pretty common those days. And it payed part of my college. No regrets at all. When a new Twilight cd came out my clasmates were lined up to buy a copy and I was happy to supply them.
Times have changed though, atm no one is making money from pirated warez. But its also much bigger than it was those days. Every idiot with an internet connection can get any game he wants.
I stopped when it was no longer profitable. CD recorders became affordable and everyone started copying. Time changes, but I do understand it must seem odd for a younger gamer.
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Not that young. I'm 27. I'm a 90s kid too. And even back then, when I was a stupid kid with no money and who didn't realize that pirating stuff isn't really a gods thing, I still thought that making a profit off of someone else's work is a VERY morally reprehensible thing. The groups that crack games and put the cracked versions on the Internet do so for fun and without any profits for their work. Anything else they find completely despicable. And it ha been this way for years.
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I don't think its okay to pirate games. I buy all my game ( or win them in giveaways ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) )
I don't think its fair to cheat game dev out of their money by pirating games because it hurts them more than it hurts the publishers.
As for those claiming to pirate the game so that they could try out the game before buying, I can understand their argument . One of the recent trends I really dislike is the lack of any good demos that most publishers fail to release. I think it is something that will drastically reduce the piracy if they released good demos for games.
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One thing people keep forgetting. Not everyone can afford to buy games. I have to work 3 days to buy The Binding of Isaac Rebirth,a small indie game,and what about AAA titles,that now cost 50+ €. On the other hand,I stopped pirating since I discovered steam,and get games by small trading and gifting sites/groups.Still,I get why some people pirate games,but if u can afford to buy them,u should. Some people worked hard so u can enjoy that.To me,steam ruined pirating,since I don't feel like I own game,can't get achievements,cards,stats,and overall don;t feel like I played game at all xD
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I think that pirating is totally cool to try games out, especially when you're a kid and you don't have any money to by the games.
No, asking your parents for money and spending their money is does not count as YOUR money.
You get YOUR money when you've actually worked and earned it.
Why not pirate? I pirated all through my childhood and never regretted it.
Now, that I'm grown up, I buy the games I loved when I was a child as they're well worth the money if I still remember them over 15 years later.
I also no longer pirate because I'm just too lazy to bother with it / don't mind waiting for the game to go on an affordable sale / wanna support the devs.
Those are all things that a child never thinks about and, in my opinion, in cases of supporting the devs, has no right to think about when he/she doesn't have his own money to make decisions with.
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with demos long gone i use pirated games as a "demo" to see if a game is worth it if it is, then ill buy it.
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I was pirating games when I was younger and as a youngsters you don't really have a ton of money, but I still bought the games I really wanted with my pocket money.
Nowadays I'm not pirating at all, but I still don't like to pay 50-70€ for a game, I absolutely hate that lots of games are 59,99 at release, but another reason to wait until it's on sale + all the bugs are actually fixed ^^
And I actually think that pirating isn't that much of a problem, it's just that all the capitalistic assholes see it as lost money, when a big part of them didn't intend to buy the game anyway.
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When I didn't have the money I pirated all the music and games I had.
Now when I work and earn money on my own, I always try to give back to the creator of the stuff I enjoy.
So, in my opinion, let people pirate things they want. Of course there will always be some "freeloaders", but some just do it because they lack the funds and will make up for it once they're back on their feet.
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And of course it's a Dutch person trying to tell people what to do suggesting stuff like "Report them to the goverment" & "let the developers implent files in their game which should detect if someone is pirating" honestly I'm not even surprised, seems like the NSB mentality is still ever present. /sigh
Please just go do your homework and leave the moral gray areas in life to be examined and judged by philosophers or at least someone better qualified then a high school kid who probably still gets an allowance.
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Funny, cause those same dutch people also happen to have some of the stronger privacy policies that quite literally do the exact opposite where they legally do not allow enforcing the sharing of such information.
You'd do well to follow your own advice and do your homework while leaving moral and ethical quandries to others.
Yeah people do questionable stuff during harsh times - you'd do the same if you were forced between death/starvation and the survival and wellbeing of your own family... Not everyone can be a hero - and while I won't go around praising those who decided to side with the germans during WWII, lets not forget that history is filled with people who are do bad things in trying to do right by their own family.
You want moral grey?
You can choose between letting your family starve (and risk repercussions for not reporting someone) or report your neighbour who will probably be found sooner or later anyway and ensure your family has to eat?
Its easy to speak poorly of something when you're not actually confronted with the situation - but people do strange things when pushed into a corner.
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Hele leuke wall of text, maar dat neemt niet weg dat dit in essentie is waar de NSB om berucht stond, namelijk het verlinken van anderen puur uit afgunst en onbegrip.
Dan kun je wel met allerlei kul argumenten komen over hoe zielig die NSB'ers wel niet waren maar daar is helemaal geen sprake van, weet je wie wel echt moesten vechten moesten om te eten en overleven? die slachtoffers van de NSB waaronder mijn voorouders, dus sorry maar dat hele zielige verhaal over de politieke elite van bezet Nederland (want dat waren de leden van de NSB indien jij je geschiedenis niet kent) dat zogenaamd noodgedwongen uit overlevingsdrang de verzetshelden en joodse gemeenschap/ gehandicapten etc verlinkte raakt kant nog wal, maar veel succes nog met het opnemen voor oorlogsmisdadigers, getuigd echt van veel respect tegenoveronze landgenoten die voor ons gestorven zijn.
Er is maar 1 simpele reden waarom Nederland systematisch het overgrote gedeelte van de joodse bevolking heeft deporteert rechtstreeks naar de gaskamers, en dat is omdat er in dit land tot op de dag vandaag maar 1 mentaliteit heerst en dat is afgunst.
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I'm not saying they're sad or even that they are right.
I'm saying that people sometimes do strange things when push comes to shove.
Obviously there are asshats out there that would do anything for a quick buck.
That is true even today, one only has to look around at corporations, global politics and so on.
That however does not change the fact that good people sometimes do bad things to survive.
To put everyone in the same box is both shortsighted and disrespectful.
I'm not saying you should venerate people for trying to do right by their family.
And I'm not saying that all of them did so because of those reasons.
I'm saying that people who are forced to choose between their family and a stranger are more likely to choose for their family.
Its a sore spot and people did questionable and outright bad things. But they did so on both sides of the line.
To this day revolutionaries and freedom fighters end up doing questionable things for their causes.
Those same revolutionaries and freedom fighters are labeled as "traitor" or "terrorist" by the opposition.
There is no black and white in this... There are just many shades of grey.
Do I approve of people who reported others to the Nazi's? No I don't...
But I can understand why someone who has a wife and kids that are starving may be tempted.
I'm also equally aware of cases where someone who tried to do the right thing and didn't report these people, or better yet even offered them shelter because they wanted to do what was right ended up getting themselves and their family beaten, imprisoned or killed.
You speak of betraying your own community and compatriots? History is always written by the victor.
We do well not to forget that there ARE two sides to that coin and that not everyone did things out of malice or hatred.
Some people do the wrong thing in trying to do the right one.
The reputation of the NSB (or any group of people that ended up siding with Nazi Germany during WWII in other countries) are largely based on our own portrayal of them - which isn't to say that they were a bunch of saints.
But it does mean that the entire group gets demonized by the actions of the worst of them.
When confronted with the fear of a bullet or the fear of starvation - you do things you would otherwise not have wanted to do.
Plenty of people who are labeled "NSBer" neither wanted to or chose to. And yet we damn them alongside the Hitlers, Himmlers, Mengele's and so on.
Lets be realistic here... Who did more harm? Someone who reported his neighbour that was sheltering a jew.
Or the creator of the atomic bomb? The crimes aren't equal...
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Sorry, I was just going through my old posts and just saw this addition to the thread, where I saw that you put;
Do I approve of people who reported others to the Nazi's?
I know this post is dead, (ironically, given the quote), but just had to ask...........Did you REALLY just compare downloading a game to the horrendous genocide of an entire creed of people?
........I'm really quite the witch-doctor when it comes to Necroposting, don't you think? lol
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While some people like to dismiss comparisons like that. I've observed that the mentality behind such a decision holds true regardless. It's an example that people will understand regardless of where they grew up.
Because it's not about the specific act, but the thinking that drives it. I could give examples specific to my region that are contemporary. But they would fall flat to anyone from a different region because the things that occur simply do not match.
More importantly, and the segment you likely missed as it got lost in translation. The person I replied to (who posted in dutch) brought up the subject in the first place by comparing the behaviour to the kinds of people who did just that.
They equated someone who reports on piracy as akin to the people who sold out jews and the like to the Nazi's.
I merely continued to point out relevant context. That the situations in fact AREN'T equal, but that the driving motives between different situations can tell you a lot about it.
Since you necro'd first I figure I keep things up.
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All I had to say, was said before I got here, so I'll just link this XD
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Its all about delivering quality content...
There will always be people who can't or won't pay for a product - but lets be honest here.
Stuff like Youtube, where people are playing video games online and showing them to people are doing a MASSIVE service to the games industry.
Used to be we had demo's and such to figure out if a game was good. Granted that wasn't foolproof either, but you had a way to figure it out.
Nowadays demo's have been phased out as they are deemed "too expensive" and "not profitable" - afterall, you're sinking a bunch of development budget in a seperate version of your game which costs money and often results in people NOT buying the game cause they didn't like it as much as they'd thought or because the demo scratched that itch and they were satisfied.
Then there is piracy. And here is the BIG BIG BIG problem that comes with piracy - or rather, the perception that piracy gives.
People say piracy is stealing, this isn't entirely true. For the simple reason that theft implies a physical and limited object.
If a store has 10 copies of a game on their shelves and they sell for $60 a pop then thats $600 in revenue.
Now if someone were to sneak a copy of one of those games out of that store (stealing it) the store would have one less copy to sell.
Someone would obtain a 'free' game and the store would be left with making only $540 in revenue cause one game got stolen.
Digital distribution and piracy don't work that way. Steam does not have a limited number of copies for a game.
Moreover, most people that pirate either would not have bought the game in the first place (because they can't or won't) and therefor aren't a lost sale or alternately their piracy experience result in them liking the game and buying it even if they would otherwise not have because they didn't get a chance to see what the game is about.
As with all market and business dealings there isn't a black-and-white way to put this. There are obviously more elements involved...
But lets get one thing clear - transparancy is GOOD for the market and the consumer.
Right now we have companies cracking down on piracy under the pretense of "lost revenue" - revenue that isn't actually LOST, because it was never theirs to begin with. "Potential revenue" isn't actual revenue... By saying that a pirated copy is a lost sale, you're saying that everyone that does not buy your game is a lost sale...
So what is it actually about? If by pirating a game you figure out that the latest installment of generic video game isn't all it could've been.
Then you decide you won't buy it. Ofcourse had you not pirated the game but listened only to the biased reviews that gave it stellar results you WOULD have bought it cause it sounds so awesome! (I'm slightly exaggerating, but the concept remains.)
So the bottom line is that like demo's before them, piracy results in a loss of sales not because people pirate - but because people may decide the game just wasn't for them.
Meanwhile, much like demo's before them, piracy also results in an INCREASE in sales because people who do like the game and who CAN buy it because they have the means to do so most likely will.
But what about the people who won't you say? Well lets be honest here... If you had no intention of buying the game you would not have done so regardless of the piracy situation...
Bottom line? I agree with your concept, buying on sales and from bundles is better than piracy from an ethical standpoint.
From a business standpoint it is atleast as questionable as piracy because the mentality of waiting for sales and bundles devalues the product and is if anything more damaging for the industry than piracy is in the first place...
Each game gets sold for less per copy and not every game will sell enough copies to make up the difference...
While we're on the subject - lets talk about buying "used games".
Often we see people doom piracy and say "Well its better to buy used games so you pay less for it."
Ofcourse used games have 100% of the revenue going to the retailer and 0% to the developer...
From a business perspective used games are WORSE for developers than piracy because they actually represent a loss in revenue.
Each used-game copy sold is a lost sale, because this person WOULD have paid for the game. Simply speaking - you're better off buying on a sale directly from the developer than buying a used game copy if you want to support the industry and developer.
The ONLY redeeming value that used-games sales have (and its a questionable one at that) is that the sellers of a game will get a fraction of their money back which may end up with the developer if this person decides to buy another game from them.
Ofcourse most stores that do used-games sales do it like GameStop etc do. And you either get a very small fraction of the price (and they turn around and sell it for near full-price...) or you get store credit. Both of which support the retailer, not the developer.
TL;DR - If you can, buy a game full price. This is by far the best way to support a developer and the industry.
If you can not afford to pay full price for games, buy smart. Look for discounts, bundles and so on.
Don't forget about indies, more and more great games are coming out of the indie scene that are good quality (sometimes even better than their "AAA" counterparts) and are often affordable.
But don't discount piracy purely based on an ethical or moral standpoint. Just remember that "potential sales" and "actual sales" are not the same thing... A pirated copy isn't a lost sale because the person who would've bought the game 9 out of 10 times still will and anyone else would 9 out of 10 times never have bought the game in the first place...
Meanwhile a sales/bundle driven economy where EVERYONE tries to get their game for cheap means that games get devalued.
Which results in less revenue for developers, which in turn means they won't be able to make as many or as good quality games in the future.
And THAT is more damaging for the industry and thus our gaming hobby than piracy ever would be.
Bundles and sales should only really be considered if you either just don't HAVE the money or for games those games that make you go "Eh, looks interesting, perhaps I'll try it some time.", but that you don't really have to play.
Bundles and sales should never become the defacto sales method as some people are making them. (And I know there are plenty out there who exclusively buy on steam/holiday sales these days so they get more bang for their buck.)
While I won't blame them (I too like to get more games for my money spent), I also try to support those developers that really need and deserve it so that they can keep making those awesome games in the future.
As for the developer/publisher perspective?
You want less people to pirate your games and not buy them?
Give them incentive. Make BETTER games. Don't cheapen a game with garbage DLC and other micro-transaction sales that are designed to exploit the consumer.
If your game is shitty, its not the fault of piracy that people won't buy it...
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I'm sorry, I NEVER payed full price for a game and I'm not ashamed for that. NO ONE forces the developers to make sales, they do it of their own volition. IF it wasn't profitable to them they wouldn't do it. Same with bundles.
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You're absolutely right - nobody forces anyone to do anything.
But much like anything else in life, actions have consequences.
You stab someone or run someone over? You face the consequences.
You eat meat thats been left out for too long thinking it'll still be okay? You face the consequences.
You sign a contract with your new employee or to purchase a new car without reading the fine print? You face the consequences.
Some of these consequences are inconsequential or don't really change much. Others are far more drastic.
At the end of the day, if more and more people buy from bundles and sales - then this will devalue a product.
This will result in a number of things:
1 - Developers that feel its no longer profitable for them will leave the field entirely.
2 - Other developers and publishers will try to cut costs resulting in worse working conditions for people that work in the industry and lower quality games for the consumer.
3 - Some genres or games will vanish entirely as developers focus on games with better sales figures.
4 - Developers will look into alternate ways to monetize their games. Ways that deviate from the "single-payment" method and move into either advertising revenue, microtransactions or similar such methods.
Long story short - your actions do affect the industry.
"If it wasn't profitable for them, they wouldn't do it." is the very reason why some developers do just that. They quit or are forced to quit.
Me? I'd rather see games worth playing than be bombarded with iOS style microtransaction junk.
Next time you skimp on a game, think on that for a second - do you want these games to keep existing in the future or do you like being nickel and dimed?
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You've completely missed my point. Developers and publishers don't do sales and price reductions for our sake... It's naive to think that. They do it because it's profitable FOR THEM. EVERYTHING they do is to profit them. Getting some money is a lot better than getting NO MONEY. So excuse me if I don't feel your pity towards them. Games are overpriced relative to peoples' revenue is MANY countries, so sales are the way they can bring these games to a wider mass of buyers. I'll never believe that companies such as EA, Ubisoft, Square Enix, etc. will ever be in such dire need, that they'll have to worsen the working conditions of their employees. That's a fallacy. If they do it, they do it cause they're CUNTS. And giving them more money won't solve that...EVER. If anything, it'll make them worse. You know how THQ was the first major publisher to put out a bundle on Humble Bundle? They did it to try to save themselves from bankruptcy. it didn't work, but it's obvious that their finance advisors saw this is a beneficial way to increase sales, Bundles and price reductions are beneficial TO ALL. What you're saying is completely FALSE. The people that have the money to buy games at launch and at full price will always do so. Bundles and sales are NOT for them.
Without reduced prices, I myself for instance, would NEVER buy a game. Not at 60 euro, that's for sure. My goddamn salary is about 450 euro, ffs. One's gotta eat. How many people like me do you think there are? A WHOLE DAMN FUCKING LOT!!! So which is better, not giving the devs any money at all, or giving them a part of the money? Not to mention the bundles also help charity... In what universe is that ever a bad thing? Don't be a dick, please.
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That is the original concept... You sell to the people that pay full price - then, when nothing is being sold anymore you lower the price so the people who weren't interested in the first place are becoming interested since "its just $X".
But here is where things get tricky... Before, people were willing to pay $60 for a game - you may no have... But others would...
THESE PEOPLE are now also waiting for their $5 to $10 sales...
So guess what is gonna happen when the majority of the market decides that they rather wait till a game goes on a 50% to 75%+ sale?
As for bundles helping charity? What, humble bundle is the ONLY bundle out there?
Don't be naive dude...
You're trying to reason yourself into a morally sound position - but if there is anyone here that is ignoring the underlying point its you.
Like I mentioned above - IF YOU ARE ABLE you should always considering buying on full price to support a developer.
Because if too many people decide that they'd rather wait on sales, this WILL (and already has) affect the development decisions in the future.
Now you may want to wash your hands of any part you may have in this because you're a cheap little shit. And thats fine, whatever makes you sleep better at night.
But if 5~10 years down the line your favorite game no longer gets made because people like you (of which there are a whole fucking lot) are too fucking cheap to pay for a game. Don't go crying that they no longer make your game... You're part of that process.
And there are plenty of developers that are resorting to bundles not because it is profitable - but because they are trying to get their foot in the door, And there's nothing that gives more free press than a good deal - this however ONLY works if people subsequently decide that they are worth supporting. If everyone keeps waiting for the next handout they'll go under because they can't financially stay afloat.
The idea that bundles are profitable only stands on the concept that games are initially sold for a higher price. And while there are shitty games that only sell on bundles - that is because they aren't WORTH a higher price.
The simple fact is if the majority of the market decides to buy titles such as Assassin's Creed on bundles or sales alone - then Ubisoft will stop making AC games. (The same holds true for any other bigger title.)
They won't go putting them on sales hoping YOU may buy them. They'll stop making them.
But hey, if you believe I'm a dick because I think a developer actually deserves to make a living rather than relying on scraps?
Go for it.
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The scenario you're proposing is a fantasy. It will NEVER happen. If it did, it would have happened already. Bundles and sales have been around for quite a while now and all I see of titans like EA, Ubisoft or Activison is that they keep getting richer and richer. And you pity them for...what exactly? The Assassin's Creed series just keeps on getting longer and longer with no perspective to stop because of all the same money it brings. I myself would really like it to stop. The meta-story of the games has gotten ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. Franchises dying is not always a bad thing, you know. I'd be something welcome in this case. You picked a REALLY bad example. AC games weren't even in any bundle, EVER. And did you just call me a cheap bastard for not paying more than 15% of my monthly revenue on a single video game? You're a douche and for that: |
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It already is happening. Countless developers are either quitting or forced to make drastic choices to stay in business, while the big studios close down IPs to focus on generic "easy money" alternatives.
Sure, others remain in business - but even they have to alter their business to conform to the new market standards.
You seem to think that a few studios closing down and big studios compromising their development plans is acceptable.
As long as you can get your cheap games.
Now considering this thread originated from someone who condemns piracy because it is detrimental to the video games industry. Behaviour such as yourself remains equally damaging if not more so.
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that you should spend a larger part of your monthly INCOME on video games.
I'm saying that if you spend any money on video games you should spend it on developers you believe deserve to continue their practices in the future.
Because at the end of the day the market runs on supply and demand aswell as sales statistics.
"Tomb Raider" sold 7 million copies within its first month and was deemed a failure because it did not meet its expected sales quota. And yet you seem to believe that your decision NOT to support a developer has no effect on the industry?
That it is your godgiven right to wait on a discount (which it is) and that a developer should be thanking you for considering to buy at all (which they shouldn't).
And while Assassin's Creed may not have been in any bundle per se, its seen plenty of sales dropping its price down drastically.
But its not the discounts that hurt the industry - its the lack of initial sales figures. And much like Tomb Raider there are countless of titles from the "big studios" that get canned in favour of more generic clones of the big three. (Call of Duty, Clash of Clans and Candy Crush)
What I called you cheap for is waiting exclusively for sales with outright disregard of how market economics work. Expecting it as your right to get stuff for a pittance. And yes, I stand by that assertion. Not because I think people should spend more of their income on video games. But because I believe that products have some inherent value to them and if we disregard that value we inevitably end up destroying the industry on which the product is made.
That if we as consumers keep devalueing video games it is no more than logical that games will keep decreasing in quality to meet those devalued standards untill it is no longer possible to run it as a business.
In the past few years I've seen several developers who have decided to quit based on the rising surge of the bundle/sales mentality.
And yes... I believe that that is a shame. I believe that if we continue to devalue products as loyal consumerist drones that we ultimately end up being the ones that pay the price by receiving an ever decreasing product in return.
At the end of the day you reap what you sow and you get what you pay for.
I for one decide its not worth paying for iOS micromanagement trash and similar shovelware titles.
I for one decide that its better to invest in quality rather than quantity. Even if the amount I can invest is limited.
Because at the end of the day, I like a good video game over a junky one.
If the current pattern persists, in time we will exclusively see micro-transaction driven titles and games riddled with advertisements.
Because the people in charge of funding the video games don't care about quality, they just care about revenuestreams.
Your precious bundles will be replaced by $0,99 microtransactions instead. Think on that.
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Pleases stop referring to publishers as developers. Those are two compliantly different sets of people/organizations.
Just because Square as publisher wanted to sell more copies of Tomb Rider then real numbers. That is their fault for over-estimating themselves, delusions of graduand is also part of their mentality. if you check their history there are not many titles that reach there "predicted" quota.
Things that are rarely spoken by common user is that most publishers are one that take lion share of developed product, also, spend exceedingly more money on advertisement, creating the diminishing return effect. Most programmers, coders, artists and other staff that worked on development of the game receives fixed salary, and anything form the sails goes to upper management and "advisers". I'm not saying that game development is cheap, far from it, but in all honesty there is bigger overhead then real costs.
Its true that indies have hard time, but comparing it with just few years back its much more indie-friendly. If it weren't so there wouldn't be such expansion of small indie studios with quite good and profitable games on the market.
No one is saying that piracy is not bad for the industry, but lets be frank, thing are better and still are moving in good direction. Sure, it will take time, but its not only to customers to adapt to market, but also developers and publishers.
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Developers are forced to make choices because publishers don't fund their titles - publishers don't fund their titles because consumers don't buy enough of them.
Long story short, because people are too greedy and titles don't sell enough. A developer is forced to alter the titles they are creating so they can get the funding needed.
The problem you are describing is a composite to this overarching issue yes. But ultimately the distinguishing between developer and publisher is irrelevant to this matter.
The "sales mentality" is having a detrimental affect to the industry and is actively ruining entire genres.
A developer is forced to make these decisions regardless of whether or not they are bound to a publisher.
Indies suffer the same consequences without ever having a publisher present in the equation.
People chide piracy and liken it to theft, then turn around and praise "discounts", "sales" and "used games" as putting an end to the piracy theme.
Ignoring the obvious that this new sales culture has made people who previously bought titles full price wait for 6~12 months or untill the next big sale before spending their money.
Short term gain outshadows long term consequences afterall.
As much as the market is more indie friendly than ever.
That doesn't mean the sales culture isn't leaving its marks.
Already we see countless people who don't buy a product within the first months after release not because they don't have money. But because they get a better deal if they wait for a sale or for the "complete edition".
Meanwhile we're here patting ourselves on the back because we do the industry such a great service in buying their games rather than pirating them. When in reality there are atleast as many pirates who now buy on sale as there are people who'd previously have bought on launch that now buy on sale. There's no "gain".
And it shows. I don't know about you but I've seen a decrease in quality for plenty of titles to compensate for this and an increase in "innovative monetization".
For all the "indie friendly" environment we now have, ultimately we as consumers are doing ourselves a disservice by devalueing products excessively.
And that has nothing to do with publishers or developers. Thats us... The consumer.
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I was thinking to give you comprehensive response, but I guess its fruitless effort. Something is preventing you to see bigger picture, so I suggest you to try to do basic math, and calculate how much really does one studio has in pure profits after selling 2-3 million copies in first month, for the game of the scope like Hitman:Absolution. I honestly hope that you could then see how much lies does publishers are putting there.
Also, little remark... what you call "full price" is not real price, but the price which customers are most likely willing to pay without much of disagreement or boycott.
And to burst your little bubble, and I'm quite sure that some other have said the same, no publisher will sell their games under a loss that includes bundles and seasonal sales. You might think that EA lost money on HB few years back, but actually they make much more. Large portion of people who took it for Battlefield 3, later on bought premium or expansions for that same game.
And to repeat myself and countless others, no one is saying that piracy is good for gaming industry and community.
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sigh
Yea, no business is gonna sell games under a loss - this is why entire genres are getting scrapped because they can't run a profit or large enough profit anymore...
THAT is the very reason we as consumers should be weary of bundles. Its all nice and all right now - but we're already seeing the repercussions as less people buy on launch.
You're looking at it from the wrong perspective "Oh, they're never gonna do a bundle if they couldn't make money off of it." only holds true when you reason that they've already made their money.
Right now they make their money during launch, then anything after is solid gold (pure profit) - this however relies strongly on initial sales.
As initial sales drop because more and more people are resorting to buying from sales and bundles exclusively because they want to get as much bang for their buck as possible this status quo shifts.
Simply put - developers and publishers get less money upfront and will shift their business accordingly.
Right now consumers (gamers) have two major complaints:
1 - The number of trash games on the market.
2 - The number of micro-transaction/Free-to-play/pay-to-win games on the market.
Both of which are inherently tied into the same practice - the fact that a publisher is trying to get as much money for their investment as possible. Both of which also are inherently tied to the shift to digital distribution and its accompanying bundle/sales culture.
While it is entirely true that a company will not sell at a loss. It is BECAUSE they are not willing to decrease their own profits that they cut down in their own budget.
If you believe that a company will happily take a lower profit ratio to enable you to buy on sales you're a fool.
The sales concept relies on selling to people who would otherwise not buy on launch - it relies on selling to people who previously would not have bought.
The sales concept is creating a new market however, shifting people who WOULD HAVE bought on launch to wait untill a sale comes around. And less sales on launch means that a developer and publisher are forced to act accordingly.
Again, ignoring these figures on the premise that they would never do a sale unless it were profitable is utterly naive. OBVIOUSLY they would not do a sale unless they made money - more obviously, they wouldn't make a game if they didn't think they could reach a certain profit.
So, in your infinite wisdom - how many developers and publishers do you think will keep making quality games when everyone and their uncle decides its better to buy from bundles and sales?
And how many developers would you reckon would either find a different business or different monetization method?
Finally... "no one is saying that piracy is good for gaming industry and community."
This is false... While exclusive piracy would be bad. Piracy as is isn't as bad as the corporate philosophy makes it out to be.
Because POTENTIAL SALES and ACTUAL SALES aren't the same thing.
Nine out of ten "pirates" would never have bought a game in the first place and therefor are not a lost sale.
To say piracy is bad for the industry is saying youtube is bad for the industry because everyone who has seen youtuber here play game here will no longer have to buy and play that game themselves.
The reality can't be more different as youtube directly promotes sales as people are exposed to awesome games and want to play them themselves.
Similarly various indie studios have shown figures that PROVE how piracy has resulted in an increase in their sales rather than a decrease as people who would otherwise never have bought their game decided to support their studio instead.
If you truely believe piracy is a bad thing, you should also boycott youtube and used game sales. As both of these directly deny a developer/publisher revenue under the same premise.
Long story short? I'm not talking about bundles that are out today.
I'm talking about games that get developed from now on.
Because the decrease in sales during launch today WILL affect the development practices of tomorrow.
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You seem to have a very poor understanding of how capitalism works... Let's simplify, shall we? A merchant has a product and sets the price that he wants for it. A customer either pays that price and gets the product or he doesn't and...well, he doesn't. If the merchant decides to sell that product at say 20% of the usual price for a limited amount of time, then that's HIS business decision. What kind of imbecile wold one have to be to want that product and not buy it at the reduced price? What you're saying would only apply in a utopia world where prices would be set according to the economic standards of each country and not a whooping 60 euro/dollars/pounds, quite a hefty price in any country and almost impossible to pay by the average Joe in a country like mine. In such a world I can guarantee you that there wouldn't be any sales, since there would be no need. The reason why micro-transactions game are so abundant is because they're profitable. Why are they so? Because people PAY for these things. As long as there's a demand for this, it'll ALWAYS exist. People who buy price reduced games have NOTHING to do with it. It's the people who pay lots of money for virtual useless bullshit like virtual cows for Farmville. And in the long run, they pay way more than they would on a normal game, even at full price. I can guarantee you that people that buy games only in sales DO NOT and HAVE NOT ever payed for these things. It's the snobs like you. People who can afford to pay 80 dollars for Evolve on release. You want someone to blame? Blame yourself and the other dip-shits.
Games have been going on sales long before the existence of Steam. And also, Steam has existed for a quite a while now and it has been Valve's policy right from the start for it to be an accessible platform with lots of periodic sales. And the industry is GREAT, better than EVER, i might add. Sure indie guys have it tough, but it's hard not to, when you have to compete with companies with endless resources and flawless marketing strategies like Ubi-shit, Kacktivision or Electronic Cunts. Tomb Raider was a fail? Oh boo-hoo... Fuck you Square Enix. I don't see this stopping you from making this new Rise of the Tomb Raider thing. I weep for your pain, I really do... What the fuck kind of fantasy world are you living in? Tolkien himself would be jealous of you. Are you actually condemning people for being good entrepreneurs and managing their money well? I said it once, but now I'll say it again: YOU ARE A TOTAL TOOL. Consider this my last reply. Arguing with someone like you is pointless. Not like you'll ever get it...
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You seem to be the kind of person that thinks a business that can't stay afloat is kinda like darwinism's natural selection. "If you can't turn a profit you don't deserve to remain in business."
Good luck playing microtransaction riddled junk for the rest of your life because you're too cheap to realize products have inherent value.
Ever notice the increasing number of junk titles on Valve's wonderful platform? Yea... That is also because Valve realized it can turn a profit if it allows EVERYTHING on its platform.
And since cheaper junk titles carry less risk - people will make junk titles over others.
Cause quality > quantity right? Live the american dream! Sell loads of junk!
Why create a quality product if you can sell more junky ones and turn a larger profit!
It seems to me you're the one that doesn't understand capitalism. You understand the american derivative of capitalism ofcourse, the one that doesn't rely on a competative and free market but that relies on abusive and controlled market conditions.
Since you claim to be so familiar with capitalism and the workings of a market economy. I'm sure you are aware of the differences between short term and long term gain... That often investing in short term gain results in long term losses if you do so without proper care.
Oh right. You don't care about the long term as long as you have your shinies now.
There will be other people making video games after these guys run out of business so what do you care.
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As a child i did download games when i couldn't ask my parents to give me 20% of the monthly income to let me buy a game.
The minimal wage in your country is five times bigger then in my country as of 2015.
Netherland: 1,501.80 EUR per month
Hungary: 332.76 EUR per month
When i started playing games it was only 100 euro per month while your country's minimal was 1000 per month. Our first Pc did cost 400 Euro and that was a lot of money at the time for something that is not essential. Since it did cost four times the minimal wage it took some years to gather the money.
Witcher is currently 60 Euro. 18% of the minimal wage in HU. It's like asking 270.8 EUR for the same game in Netherland.
I'm not pirating since i started using Steam in 2013 August but i can only afford $1 tier bundles since i have no income as a student.
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To be entirely fair... The cost of living between the two countries isn't the same either.
Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant 4.80 € (Hungary)
Meal, Inexpensive Restaurant 15.00 € (Netherlands)
Loaf of Fresh White Bread (500g) 0.54 € (Hungary)
Loaf of Fresh White Bread (500g) 1.31 € (Netherlands)
Volkswagen Golf 1.4 90 KW Trendline (Or Equivalent New Car) 16,000.51 € (Hungary)
Volkswagen Golf 1.4 90 KW Trendline (Or Equivalent New Car) 23,135.00 € (Netherlands)
Basic (Electricity, Heating, Water, Garbage) for 85m2 Apartment 155.09 € (Hungary)
Internet (6 Mbps, Unlimited Data, Cable/ADSL) 11.99 € (Hungary)
Basic (Electricity, Heating, Water, Garbage) for 85m2 Apartment 163.05 € (Netherlands)
Internet (6 Mbps, Unlimited Data, Cable/ADSL) 23.20 € (Netherlands)
Rent Per Month .
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 213.42 €
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 150.51 €
Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 394.89 €
Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 293.45 €
Buy Apartment Price Avg.
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 910.97 €
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 608.24 €
Salaries And Financing Avg.
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 486.86 €
Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentages (%), Yearly 6.51
Rent Per Month Avg.
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 803.17 €
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 613.97 €
Apartment (3 bedrooms) in City Centre 1,380.00 €
Apartment (3 bedrooms) Outside of Centre 999.32 €
Buy Apartment Price Avg.
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment in City Centre 2,953.43 €
Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre 2,136.00 €
Salaries And Financing Avg.
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 2,180.92 €
Mortgage Interest Rate in Percentages (%), Yearly 4.13
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Hungary&displayCurrency=EUR
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/country_result.jsp?country=Netherlands
And lets not forget that many eastern european countries have a very favorable currency rate when it comes to platforms like Steam.
There is good reason why so many people used to trade their games from russian resellers (before the cracked down on it).
We may get 3x your wages, but as you can see we also get to pay 3x as much (if not more) for many things.
Yea, video games are generally internationally priced at $60 - but there's more to life than video games.
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 150.51 € (Hungary)
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 613.97 € (Netherlands)
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Yes and i have a couple of 40 euro games but i have record of 10 hour max on them while i have played ten times more small games, even 1 euro games are awesome!
I'm a dutch guy but my car later won't be a flagship like the witcher 3 is at the moment for gaming, i can't drive a maserati gran turismo S right from the auto dealer and say 'THANKS MAN just trying out maybe i'll see you next week if i have time and enjoyed the ride' there a appointments in life and norms and values which some people prefer and don't prefer but in a community of civilians should you learn to think also about other people and their hard work on games.
I'm also not very rich, i'm still gathering money with working as a student at the carwash for more than a year to get a decent computer and maybe some people in other poor countries would have to work 4 years for such computer than such computer is not compatible with such a life, try to focus on other things in life and make it fun!
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The inherent problem is the (international) economical inequality.
Right now we're looking at a global industry such as that of games.
Because of how the market works and where the driving forces are, the price of games is largely set on an international level.
"Call of Duty" costs $60 no matter where you buy it.
Meanwhile historically local products are often priced towards local income and necessity aswell as availability.
As a result income disparity is a thing. And few companies will be willing to adjust their prices to meet those standards.
(Though some see financial benefits in doing so, which is why Steam has a seperate pricegroup for countries such as Russia - as they've noticed that selling for less means they can compete against piracy in those countries.)
You can't really base such comparisons on the income of a student. Though it does suck if you ARE a student that you can't buy the same thing as someone who lives in a different country.
Where someone from Hungary complains about the income of The Netherlands - we can turn around and look at say Cuba and see something like this:
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 22.13 €
Try living off of that.
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It's not three times the wages but five times.
According to the page you have to pay two or three times the money for the food and four times the money for a rent but you still get five times more money for the same amount of work.
Until the prices are less than five times bigger you can keep bigger percent of your money each month whatever you do in NL.
Let's just consider the basic and one room in the centre.
1500-(800+165) in NL. You can keep 535 for the month to buy food, cloths and other stuff.
300-(210+155) in HU. You can't even afford to rent a room in the centre with the minimal wage.
Now according to the page you linked the avg wage after tax is 486.86 € in HU and 2180.92 € in NL.
2180.92-(800+165)=1215.92 avg person in NL will have that much euro after paying rent in centre and basic.
486.86-(210+155)=121.86 euro. That is the amount of money you can keep after paying taxes, rent and basics in Hungary.
The food cost only two times the amount in NL. so if you spend 243 euro in NL a month you will still have almost a thousand euro to buy everything else. While the same amount of food cost 121 euro in Hungary which is the amount that is left after the rent and basic is paid.
Don't copy paste but check the numbers. The source is the one you provided.
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You are correct, the balance isn't equal. However the numbers are averages.
You'll find that plenty of people (in both countries) live above and below those standards.
I can guarantee you that not every single dutch person has that much money to spend freely after living expenses are taken out.
The point still stands. Cost of Living is often overlooked when people compare income between two countries.
And cost of living includes costs you have not included in these two comparisons. (There's more to cost of living than just rent and the electric/water bills...)
We've got obligatory medical insurance of €100 a month (and an own-risk of about €300 a year, so unless you're chronically ill you still end up paying for many things).
Various other forms of insurance which are either obligatory or otherwise highly recommended.
The list goes on.
I haven't done the full math equation - but I do know that unless you have a HIGH paying job, you're not gonna be left with a thousand euros to freely spend AFTER cost-of-living.
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Lets look at those numbers as you request...
Consumer Prices in Budapest are 43.77% lower than in Amsterdam
Consumer Prices Including Rent in Budapest are 53.70% lower than in Amsterdam
Rent Prices in Budapest are 73.70% lower than in Amsterdam
Restaurant Prices in Budapest are 61.10% lower than in Amsterdam
Groceries Prices in Budapest are 42.71% lower than in Amsterdam
Local Purchasing Power in Budapest is 47.58% lower than in Amsterdam
Comparing Budapest to Amsterdam - the capitals of our respective nations.
And lets keep in mind that these are based in statistics and thus the shown values are averages.
The "high" and "low" extremities aswell as the disparity between them does affect the results.
But that also means the spectrum reflects equally.
Salaries And Financing Avg.
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 569.75 € (448.01 704.02) (Hungary)
Average Monthly Disposable Salary (After Tax) 2,347.85 € (1,800.00 3,000.00) (Netherlands)
You will note again the disparity in the numbers. Someone on the high end in Hungary is barely €150 above whereas the high end for The Netherlands has people being significantly higher.
Again it is important to look at the bigger picture. Not just a singular statistic.
And we do well to keep in mind that local income does not affect the international pricing as set by international businesses.
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The last game I pirated, I pirated because the developers told me to.
Hotline Miami 2 is banned in Australia, so I just pirated it, and bought another copy of Hotline Miami 1 from GOG to balance the books. Fair? I think so.
Piracy can be a force for good. It is not a zero sum equation.
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Putting a file on internet is like putting your 1500$ new TV in the middle of a street and expect to find it there tomorrow.
Don't get me wrong, i don't support pirating but still there are situation where i find it legitimate: for example if the prices are not considering the region you live. It's kind of wrong making pay 50$ a game in a country where the medium salary is 200$. I think it's also legitimate if you have doubts about the system requirements. These are often wrong and you can play very well even above the minimum requirements, but not always so this being tricky about S.R. makes you often waste money.
But most of all, there are some laws (luckilly) that protects your privacy.
Dev can't really control you in any way and it would be morally wrong, but also if i'm a legitimate owner i would feel treated like a thief.
Steam can't ban an account in which there have been spent money. It would be like you steal that TV in the middle of the street and then the owner comes and takes it away, togheter with your computer, your phone, some chairs and your stereo.
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Lets not forget the times when piracy had a leg up on the "official" release.
Whether it be DRM breaking a game or other such issues.
I know of atleast half a dozen instances where a developer resorted to the "crack" made of their game to fix a problem.
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The only games I've pirated are ones that are no longer being produced and no digital copies exist.
If I were to buy it legally, it would cost me hundreds of pounds.
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I think that games, like movies, music, software and books, are part of the culture and should be available without economic barriers. Many developers famous today, not to mention the former presidents of major software companies, was formed on pirated software because they had no money for licenses or, in some cases, the licenses did not exist.
That said, since I use Steam and GOG, I do not feel pleasure in playing something that is not in my library. If I have doubts about the work of developers, I wait for the sales.
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I'm hoping that Steam's new refund policy of letting you play up to 2 hours to try a game out and then request a refund will help curb piracy on the PC.
I don't think it will help curb the piracy issue completely. I think it will help curb the people that attempt to justify piracy, because it shuts down a lot of the main justifications I've heard. Just trying it so you can make sure it works on your machine? Want to make sure you like it ("I will buy it if I end up playing it longer than an hour")?
Most of the standard justifications except for "I can't afford it, but I believe that I'm entitled to it anyways" or "I can't get it in my region" are covered.
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I don't usually pirate games, but I think that it's OK to do it if you are not sure if you are going to like it.
People don't have bad mentality just for doing that. If you don't like the game that you just pirated, just uninstall it.
I have 116 games in my Steam account, so I can say that I'm not pirating them, but recently I pirated an early access game for testing it because I don't support buying games that are still not finished. Anyway, I will keep following it and buy it when its finished, because I'm liking the work that the developers are doing.
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Pirating is bad, though I still have lenience about circumstances, example :
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---NOTE--- Not everyone can afford games, my opinion doesn't regard to poor people, i just hate it when people with money and enough money to afford the pirated games just doesn't have a feeling for the devs
Is it normal to pirate games?
I think it 's a huge mistake you shouldn't take.
I pirated one game and after one day i buyed it on Steam.
I never pirate a game to try out, i only pirate it if there is no possibility at that moment ( maybe cuz it's night ) to buy the game, next morning i pay the game or donate a bit to the developers.
If u are a game addict like me then don't go to pirate but reconsider to get games from here or from bundle sites, pay a little more for a bundle if it makes your day better.
Stop pirating and reply to the poll please!
And maybe give this thread a bump if you agree with me
Even if you pirate a game to look if it's fun, and it turns out it's plain crappish junk will it still be normal to buy the game if it's not that expensive, otherwise you can donate 10 euro as example to the company and you won't do that to show off how good you are from inside no it's your own mentality which is important.
Read this please:
As example: I make a game, i hire people, i make connections with advertisers, copyright owners i buy content, i have to pay for several bills and a lot more stuff that comes with making and publishing a game.
It's like walking in a cinema getting through the security and watching a film and than go outside and it turns out its crap, or you like it and you don't give money for the entertaiment.
It's a shame to do that....
Maybe it is the age of the average player or is maybe the bad mentality of people at this time of life or there is no respect for developers anymore
Thumbs up for the people that are doing right and playing fair.
---- > SOME VERY USEFULL POSTS < ----
@JBlacknight
I like watching all these people who try to defend pirating saying it's not stealing when in fact it is. It doesn't matter how you spin it, it's always stealing.
@myself
'Yes and i have a couple of 40 euro games but i have record of 10 hour max on them while i have played ten times more small games, even 1 euro games are awesome!
I'm a dutch guy but my car later won't be a flagship like the witcher 3 is at the moment for gaming, i can't drive a maserati gran turismo S right from the auto dealer and say 'THANKS MAN just trying out maybe i'll see you next week if i have time and enjoyed the ride' there a appointments in life and norms and values which some people prefer and don't prefer but in a community of civilians should you learn to think also about other people and their hard work on games.
I'm also not very rich, i'm still gathering money with working as a student at the carwash for more than a year to get a decent computer and maybe some people in other poor countries would have to work 4 years for such computer than such computer is not compatible with such a life, try to focus on other things in life and make it fun!'
@Fatality92
Putting a file on internet is like putting your 1500$ new TV in the middle of a street and expect to find it there tomorrow.
Don't get me wrong, i don't support pirating but still there are situation where i find it legitimate: for example if the prices are not considering the region you live. It's kind of wrong making pay 50$ a game in a country where the medium salary is 200$. I think it's also legitimate if you have doubts about the system requirements. These are often wrong and you can play very well even above the minimum requirements, but not always so this being tricky about S.R. makes you often waste money.
But most of all, there are some laws (luckilly) that protects your privacy.
Dev can't really control you in any way and it would be morally wrong, but also if i'm a legitimate owner i would feel treated like a thief.
Steam can't ban an account in which there have been spent money. It would be like you steal that TV in the middle of the street and then the owner comes and takes it away, togheter with your computer, your phone, some chairs and your stereo.
New Steam Refund Policy: http://store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/
Sorry for my bad english i'm not native english
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