What do you think?
Do what you want on your GAs, but innocent russian civilians should not pay for this stupid war, and blocking them from SG will solve nothing.
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That's right. We need more sanctions. There are few of them, only the sky is closed and villas in France will be taken away. We need more sanctions, you give a complete ban on fertilizers, gas and oil. It is necessary that the price of gasoline at gas stations became 5 euros, not 2 as it is now.
I did not think that sanctions are a mutual cudgel and they go badly not only on those who were imposed, but also on those who impose. But those who talk a lot about them, it would be nice to see how these sanctions will affect him. 90% of the fact that he will transfer them easily, at the same time then using these sanctions to his advantage by removing competitors of those who were difficult to remove.
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Oligarchy and government for sure use steam gift....and of course take advantage doing it....
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You should understand why and what sanctions are about. I find most of them extremely stupid, yours too. F.e. CD Projekt Red left the market and won't sell their games anymore on Russian territory. And almost all sanctions are like this one - company lefts the market. BUT. You could continue sales and raise all money from sales to help the victims of Ukraine, it will be super fair and right. And instead of this, they just leave the market. As I already said, almost all the sanctions are not really helping Ukraine in any way (of course they pressure and so on, but they could be executed a lot better). Preposterous.
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Well, companies doing business in Russia will have to pay taxes and thus help fund the war. Also, given that at this point there is little to no free press left in RUS these kind of sanctions might help getting people, who aren't politically engaged/informed to notice that something is a amiss.
I do however think OPs take is misguided and targets the wrong audience. If somebody actually posts Putin propaganda feel free to use the blacklist button.
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Taxes get to the government either way.
Either it's through a distributor (gaming store or whatever) selling physical copies or it's through steam where steam itself already collects inclusive tax on the product the tax gets payed either way.
Might be some specifics or whatever but the idea is clear - whatever business you do, you pay the tax either way to the country you sell in.
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Steam collects taxes for USA. If a buyer is from Russia, steam won't collect and send taxes for Russia, nor a developer (if he is not registered inside country as a company, he will be obliged to). For instance I'm a game developer from Russia and I haven't send any taxes from my income to Russia, but steam collects like 20% as taxes for USA automatically. So, I don't think it works on digital copies through steam
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Steam pricing is VAT inclusive in all countries where amounts are collected. On a periodic basis, Valve remits the tax collected on sales to the appropriate tax authorities.
From their FAQ. Basically USA doesn`t even have VAT. At least from what I understand in this regard the 20% they take in is the VAT for country you are in (RU has 20% VAT) and then it is redirected from steam to the tax authorities. So basically it goes around you anyway.
But if anyone knows the dealings with tax on steam in more detail be free to correct me if I got anything wrong.
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I have also lived in ex-communist state of Yugoslavia, while we in Croatia were attacked by Serbs. We were almost without guns, not have our state settled, not having our own forces - against a ex-Yugoslav forces that Serbs were commanded to or were supported by (rebel Serbs were helped by ex-Yugoslav National Army - YNA). At that time YNA was considered to be one of the top 5 armies in the World, not only Europe.
But we fought well, we fought with our heart, managed to arms ourselves. & in 4 years time, we pushed rebel Serbs & YNA out of Croatia. & even then invited the local Serbs to come back to their homes & live in Croatia. Some came back, some never left, some even fought on our side against rebel Serbs.
So for us in Croatia, annexing Crimea is out of the question. & this war in Ukraine hurts in our hearts, as our own. Pains are still fresh, even after 25 years.
To Croatia people, at least most of them, support Ukraine & their struggle to have a whole Ukraine. So I say YES to sanctions, until people in those countries do change their government.
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S&P forecasts do not always show what is really there. Do not forget that this is a company from the USA and they cannot always show something unbiased and give an accurate forecast in the absence of data. As you can understand, the index has not been updated since February 25, 2022. https://www.investing.com/indices/world-indices We don't really look at RVI, this is just an indicator that the market doesn't know what to do, the lower, the more predictable the market, and the higher, the less you can understand how the market will behave.
The announcement of a technical default does not always entail the bankruptcy of the issuer. Having overcome difficulties in a few days, the company can pay off its debts and continue to develop steadily. If the issuer does not find an opportunity to repay the debt within the appointed time, its bonds will be assigned the status of "default".
And for the transfer of interbank information, there is not only SWIFT. Yes, through others it is longer, but it is possible.
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Wait until you discover the dozen of ongoing wa- "armed conflicts" happening around the World, the list of countries involved may surprise you.
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I'm actually baffled by the responses around Russia.
Just imagine, all the common Russians are without many digital services. Now imagine what your own government can do to you if you are not on the "right side of the history" or "mandates" or any other stupid shit. You are either with "us" or without basic necessity and this is what's happening.
What happened with Canadian Truckers and Russians will happen to you tomorrow and there will not be anyone to stop it because, muh, Putin bad, USA good!
And as far as war crimes go, I'd like everyone to see what is happening in Yemen, Somalia and many other countries else, you guys are hypocrites and selective "arm chair" activists, nothing more.
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And as far as war crimes go, I'd like everyone to see what is happening in Yemen, Somalia and many other countries else, you guys are hypocrites and selective "arm chair" activists, nothing more.
Does that somehow excuse whats been done in Ukraine ?
Be happy people are waking up to what war actually means. Now that it's happening literally in EU backyard we finally see what it's like. Use the chance to educate others on the crimes that where committed in countries you are referring to. But in no way it excuses what is being done now. Bringing this up is just idiotic.
USA is not good, but in no way russia is good as well. Maybe for once understand that actually USA bad AND Russia bad. And yes - if you are bringing up countries then bring up countries not individuals and don't be a hypocrite yourself. Just because USA government wages war in middle east doesn`t mean they represent every american....... This cherry picking is even more annoying then of those who ignore middle east wars.
PS. and I will totally admit that I was oblivious to what has been done in middle east by both russians and americans. Now that the threat is real and right here it makes me realize what kind of crap has been done there as well. And of course I agree - those who did it should 100% stand trial for war crimes as well (civilian bombins etc). But right now we have an actual war going on and people dying right here with real shitstorm coming over europe as well (gas/petrol/refugees). Whataboutism wont help out those poor souls in middle east that already received this treatment. But stopping putin will save many lives right now. Better late then never
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I somehow doubt that people will educate themselves from this case and from now on any USA/NATO's invasion into another country will be met with the same measures: companies closing their offices in USA (and losing half of their profits), Coca-Cola and Pepsi refusing to sell their products in every NATO country, Stephen King saying Americans don't deserve to read him...
Most of these actions come from USA, and they won't shoot themselves in the leg by allowing their propaganda machine to turn against them. He who pays the musician chooses the music.
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I understand your point, but I think SG is a place supposed to be better than that. I mean that SG is dedicated towards sharing love of gaming between random strangers worldwide, who can also talk and exchange point of views outside of their daily environnement... typically not the kind of thing Putin would encourage. Punishing every users from Russia and Belarus on SG would probably not change anything regarding the war and, personally, I will not do stuff to exclude people from my (now rare) GAs based on their nationality.
That being said, an action (which I would not see as harsh or excessive) could be made by SG: removing, until the war is ended, the capacity to make GAs restricted to Russia and Belarus. This would not prevent anyone to enter ROW GAs, it would just prevent people from Russia and Belarus to make GAs limited to these 2 countries. This is brainstorming after a workday, maybe just a bullshit idea...
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I'm too tired to link the dots, or you meant to reply to another comment ?
By the way, the infamous asshole who serves (himself) as a president of my country can be referred as Emmanuel Macron, the other first names are never used. Or you can also simply call him infamous asshole, of course.
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Absolutely :)
Random designation works for justice trials in many country, I'm sure it could also work for parliaments members (at least there would be debates, and not just acting). People who want the power are the exact ones we need to stop from having it.
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Sorry, I still don't get it. My reply to OP was about Steamgifts, and nothing else. Maybe you read "gas" where I wrote "GAs" (acronym of GiveAways, plural) ?
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No need to apologize, as someone said before: error is human :-)
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What have those without freedom of speech done?
What have those without freedom of information done?
Have you censored sources of information to which you suddenly have no access?
Whose means is it?
Think about that carefully.
If the general public in Belarus and Russia also think you are evil, then we have a difference of opinion.
Countries impose economic sanctions that dry up the general population.
If Steam follows suit, the result could be that Steam keys cannot be "redeemed" in Russia or Belarus.
In that case, they would simply not be able to offer or receive prizes.
If censorship were to be implemented, it would be an act of enforcing the means of a country that does not like it.
Please, as one of the polite members of the SG, calm down and think about this.
Your limiting it to "group GAs" or "group discussions" is probably fine.
However, if you insist on it in a "General discussion", it will not be considered favorable.
The poll questionnaire was not favorable either.
Generally yes, generally no, and actions that can be phrased that way will produce undesirable results.
Suggestions only for Yes/No, after calming down.
It is more constructive to ask for approval or disapproval by
I think we should give it at least a week to see how it goes.
There is a big move in Russia to regulate the internet and we will see if they really become a censorship refugee or a calm one.
"If Steam imposes restrictions, SteamGifts will follow them."
(Probably won't do anything to shut down speech or chat, just that we won't be able to redeem)
If a non-gentleman, Russian or Belarusian, shows up in that situation, please encourage a cautionary comment and use a support ticket.
And for those reading this, if you think you have had enough of this discussion, say nothing and leave it alone.
What I recall.Old Game
"As the Americans learned so painfully in Earth's final century, free flow of information is the only safeguard against tyranny. The once-chained people whose leaders at last loose their grip on information flow will soon burst with freedom and vitality, but the free nation gradually constricting its grip on public discourse has begun its rapid slide into despotism. Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."-- Commissioner Pravin Lal, "UN Declaration of Rights"
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According to the information I gathered, the Putin government is working quite hard to block Twitter, check people's phones, censor information. Maybe it will soon reach a level like the Great Firewall of China, isolating common Russian people from the truth.
Games are media, that can bring information of truth to them. Thus, I'd say no to sanction.
There must already be quite a lot of disinformation there in Russia. But, there are still many brave people protesting.
Let's keep the window open so that more may see the light.
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https://s00.yaplakal.com/pics/pics_original/2/0/5/14902502.jpg
The motherland remembers
The motherland hears
The Motherland sees
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I am Russian. I will never set regional restrictions on my giveaways due to military actions, sanctions or anything else. This is stupid. This is the relationship of the authorities, not ordinary citizens. I will add many commenters to this discussion in WL for sharing my thoughts. Thank you. And the author is going to my BL. But this is your position, you think so and have every right to it, but I do not agree with you ¯_(ツ)_/¯
I’m sure many will add me to the BL, but I don’t care =)
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I don't know what to say to this. I respect your opinion and your right to do as you please as a gifter but I won't follow suit and I don't believe SG should either.
Most Russians are against the war, and against Putin's madness. They are living in a country where they can't even say they disagree with their government without risking prison at the very least. I don't wish to punish them any further.
Generalizations are dangerous and they lead to radicalization and extremism when people are being ostracized.
Yes economic sanctions will undoubtedly hurt the Russian people and it's horrendous but they will hurt Putin more and the point is to make him back down.
Yes Russian athletes (and esport players) are being banned from international events but the idea is, again, to sanction Putin and his nationalist supporters. Not the athletes.
Does Putin know SG exist? Nope. Would he care if he did? Nope. So I don't see the point of doing anything that will only harm the Russian people further.
I will blacklist and add trolls to my ignore list but I won't blanket-ban Russians from my GAs, It doesn't feel right.
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Why did not you include an "I disagree with you but I respect your opinion" choice for the poll? I mean, this is not a site that was made to punish anyone really. Quite the contrary. I like this page exactly because here we have many nice, generous souls and we can share the joy of gifting with each other, regardless of where we belong.
To me, these suggested actions seem unnecessary and contraintuitive. It serves no real purpose other than to discriminate people based on their nationality, who are otherwise not responsible for anything thats happening right now.
But also, its your choice and I dont wish to tell you what you should do. You feel like this is your way of protesting, thats that and do so! But wishing for system-wide implementation wont do anything at all for the cause. It would not do anything even if it were implemented. It certainly wont affect anyone that wants and proactively participates in the conflict. They could not care less about our little internet community.
And as such, I dont think steamgifts should take a stance on any side at all. Why should they?
Also, many people and recently even companies and countries do just that, but most of them is not really genuine on their stance. Its all fanfares and supposedly "bold" statements. To me, they look like cheap publicity stunts that are easy to pull off as anti-war messaging generally resonates well with most people nowadays. To an extent, I am glad for this, but when people echo a thought because its the current popular opinion and tribalism takes over, it destroys the genuine part of the intent and it just rings... hollow.
I do wish this conflict to end soon, to end the unnecessary bloodshed on both parts, but I dont think that punishing the everyman for the actions of the elite is ever going to work in favour of said wish.
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you are talking about ww2? how many people here on steamgifts have fought in ww2? its not our generation... and its not like every german stood behind hitler as not every russian stands behind putin. but whom do i telling this? you should know that sadly many people dosnt care that not all russians are bad... and sadly you are doing the same mistake. dont call everybody a nazi just cause he has a different opinion / comes from an other country or even germany...
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yes, sadly many people might be stupid and want to hurt russians in general just cause of one idiot... thats not right and i´m against it as well. i still dont think many of them are nazis... i guess most of them feel helpless (as for example i do here...).
btw: i blacklisted you cause of your usage of the word nazi. as a german you might get called nazi pretty often, just because you are german....
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I'm Russian, and I think I'll just go ahead and blacklist you. You are not getting blacklisted because you are Russian. You are being blacklisted because your behaviour is downright ugly.
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it's a pretty manichean point of view and a little victimist. I get BL too answering your comments, and Im not russian and I dont BL you because you're russian. But if you offend ppl with this kind of word and go on Godwin Point you should consider this could be more a reason than your nationality? I live in a region where the ground is covered by commonwealth graveyards, who fought nazis and see this kind of term distorted or trivialized can bother ppl who know their country history
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Im old enough to have my own point of view.
discrimination of any race or nationality is Nazism. today they take our games away from us, tomorrow they may decide that we should not live.
some idiot from Europe said that he would not give games for users from Russia. the developers did it for him already.
EA games
Take-Two Interactive
ubisoft
microsoft
gsc
list of the games unavailble to buy in russia is just gigantic.
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I think you will have more important worryings for weeks to come, than being banned from editors , because your economy is going to collapse if it stays like this.
Nazism is an ideology preaching the hatred, genocide and atrocities, its much more than economic discriminating sanctions. Its sad it antagonizes you instead of make you worry what will be your future living in Russia closed to the world as North Korea is?
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(EDIT March 21st)
Obviously, it's time for me to take another break from SG.
I am dismayed by how little our community cares about Ukrainians and how much it cares about poor Russians living their cozy lives under their oppressive (and criminal) regime. I'm also dismayed, how easily otherwise sensible people fall into russian propaganda stereotype, that everyone trying to oppose rashism must be a russophobe. Which I am not. I am however an anti-fascist, no matter if we talk about folks glorifying nazi war criminals or folks actively or passively supporting Putin's rashism and invasion of Ukraina.
It's hard for me to believe, that if we were talking about September of 1939, when Germany started the WWII invading Poland (or July of 1941, when according to Russia the WWII began), so many of you would as well argue, that sanctions about poor German citizens are unjustified, because they have no way to oppose Hitler and are oppressed by nazi regime, and that they would have no other effect, but to cause uncalled for hardship on those people, many of whom are opposed to their regime.
If that's, how you see the current situation, then you are either supporting Putin and rashism or there is something really messed up in your thinking. For all I know, in all those years nazis never got even close to getting 50% national support in 3rd Reich, and now most of you are willing to fight against oppressive sanctions directed against innocent Russians, when according to every source, when the invasion of Ukraine began, well over 50% (probably close to 65-70%) of russian citizens have supported Putin's war. Also, well over 50% of them believes, that after dealing with Ukraina, Russia should deal in a similar manner with "the threat posed to it" by, among others, Poland, Moldova and Baltic States. Because, according to rashism, Russia has the right to regain their imperial influence on at least the whole territory of the former Soviet empire and semi-occupied Warsaw Pact countries.
A week ago in my town there was a demonstration against the russian invasion of Ukraina, organized by Russians living in Poland. Unfortunately, I didn't know about it at that time, because if I knew, I would be there to support them and thank them. As I will try to support and help any Russian actively opposing Putin and rashism. Actually, if you are opposed to Putin and you want to flee the threat of being conscripted into russian military, if you are able to reach polish borders directly from russian or belarussian territory, I may be able to help you gain a political asylum in Poland. But if you live in Russia or you are a russian citizen, and you are you are not willing to actively oppose the Putin's regime, then in my opinion you are also responsible for the actions of your country, so sanctions limiting your access to any kind of luxury goods (and games are certainly not a basic necessity) are fully justified and in current situation necessary.
This should however never impact the free flow of information. Actually I'm also dismayed by opportunism and lack of courage of publishers blocking sales of their games in Russia. They should never do so themselves. They should have forced Putin's regime to do this, by patching their games with messages condemning russian invasion of Ukraina (like unskippable intro, when you first start the game). But this, ofc, could lead to their games being permanently banned in Russia, while stopping their sales now, they can be pretty sure to be able to resume them shortly. So, yes, a lot of those sanctions in just a PR bullshit :( .
It's true and unfortunate, that I've been imprecise in my OP - it was pretty obvious to me, that I'm speaking about blocking access to GAs, not to discussions. But even ignoring this, maybe my original proposal has also been flawed. Possibly, it could be a better solution not to limit the access to GAs to anybody, but to make it necessary for every winner to agree with a statement condemning the russian invasion before claiming any win. Each time and everyone. But reading the answers in this thread I don't see anyone (sorry if I missed a post or 2) trying to find a better solution to the one, that I've proposed, and except the not so many people, that agree with me, I see almost all the rest seemingly caring much more about not harming the "poor, self-oppressed, innocent Russians", than about trying to help the Ukraina. Unfortunately, my personal reward for the best answer here has to go Glorow.
Sadly, I must end with 1 more controversial statement. To those of you, that have blacklisted me over this thread or will do so (which I fully expected to happen), I have just 1 request: Please, never remove me from your blacklist, because I'm not able to trace and blacklist all of you. Well, all except one person from Ukraine, that probably has totally misunderstood, what I was writing about.
Take care and don't get yourself killed, neither by war nor by COVID. And just make sure, that you will not be ashamed of yourself, when all of this is over. One day, probably in a year or so, when Ukraina is once again at peace and regains all of its territory, and when Putin is no longer ruling Russia, I will be back here, hopefully finding all of my friends here as well.
=================
(Original, unedited post)
As long as SG does not block Russian and Belarusian residents and there is no final peace treaty between Ukraine and Russia, all my GAs will be region restricted, with possibility to enter them form Russia and Belarus blocked. If any of the groups, that I'm in, will find this unacceptable, I will suspend my membership in that group.
We should be helping victims of this war. Not only Ukrainians, but also Russians and Belarusians, if they are persecuted for opposing the war.
We should (and we do) accept women, children and elderly refugees from Ukraine, but also accept objectors from Russia and Belarus, if they are fleeing military service or danger of being drafted there.
At the same time however we should apply sanctions against Russian and Belarusian nationals, as long as they are in their countries or as long as they do not unequivocally condemn the war, while living abroad. Mostly we do. Not many of us would argue, that a Russian athlete should be allowed to take part in an international competition, just because that person possibly does not support Putin and is against the war. It's very sad, that we have to make someone not only uncomfortable, but possibly break their dreams, but that's the only way in which we can not only protest, but also help those people oppressed by their regimes, to free themselves.
I know, what I'm talking about. I'm from Poland and I have lived through this. In 1981, after "Solidarity" has been crushed by the communist regime declaration of Martial Law, we were subjected to very strong sanctions. Vast majority of folks, that were trying to actively oppose the government, were not only supporting them, but even asking for those sanctions to be expanded. Protests against them were coming from those, that were the government's supporters, and from significant part of those, who decided to care about their day to day life, and not about any principles, freedoms and folks arrested and imprisoned. But with time results of those very sanctions have actually made them more active. If those sanctions have not been placed and maintained for a long time, in 1988-1989 most likely we would not be the first country to break out of the Soviet camp.
Sanctions are not only the only message of condemnation, that Kremlin can't suppress for a prolonged time, but also a tool to turn those, that are passive, against their government. And usually, most people are passive, as long as they are reasonably comfortable.
Hearing, that we are not at war here (meaning SG, as it's been later explained), I can only see it as a way to preserve our own zone of comfort by avoiding taking the stand, that we easily can. I'm convinced, that SG should join the sanctions and block Russian and Belarusian residents for as long, as there is no final peace treaty between Ukraine and Russia. As long as it doesn't, I will apply those sanctions to my GAs. I hope, that I will not be the only one doing so.
Sadly a very cheap potato train, lvl 2, 1 week, minor bot protection in the link (all games are from Fanatical Dollar Chronicle Bundle, nothing more left in my reserve after the recent still running Cakeday train).
And sorry to my Russian and Belarusian friends here (not really sure, who you are, I rarely check nationalities here, even if shown on Steam profiles, but sure some of you are from there). I can only say, that I hope for Putin to be overthrown and for things to be back to normal in a very short time. Because, if this doesn't happen fast, then the new Cold War will last for a long time... possibly till the end of mankind, as we know it :(.
Freedom and Victory for Ukraine!
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