It's mostly used by people giving away free crap and thus they aren't sure the key isn't working (90% of the time, just check their profiles) or unless someone found a very old bundle and then it would be a nice courtesy to agree.
I wish we could just erradicate all this free game crap, 90% isn't also added to the no cv list as mods can't keep up, i offered to even help but the mod that was adressing my ticket doesn't answer back, thus this stuff is going to keep happening, as some can get to level 5 on free crap, why would they stop?
This is not an official SG rule, people can write it down but you just simply don't have to agree.
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Steam doesn't provide a way to verify if a key is valid and more and more developers revoke the keys they sold for no good reason, and it's making GA creators nervous, that's all. Probably they'd be better off creating such GAs in a group such as this one https://steamcommunity.com/groups/lootboy_sg where members are opting in to GAs with "unsure" keys.
Tbh, I've won quite a few GAs mentioning such disclaimer, and among those I think I got an invalid key only once in total.
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some devs have also been turning off unused keys. mainly the cheap crap that get's removed from the store for some violation but it still happens.
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Meanwhile, me:
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaway/f6w95/the-crew-2/winners
(Also had one dupe key GA that I agreed could be deleted. Those are the only 2 GA's I ever won that were "bad"). So the issue is definitely very rare it seems.
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Well looking at the account that created that GA and the game that isn't too surprising hoenstly and I just won a game that was a duped key where I agreed now to delete GA xD so I guess it does happen
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Why waste a key with 90%+ chance to work on some bot dump thread when you can gain that sweet CV.
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You don't have to agree or not enter the giveaway. If the key turns out to be ''bad'' you can mark it as not received or agree for a deletion. You don't have to agree for deletion, it's more a matter of courtesy. Either way it's your call at the end.
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It would be cool if people just followed the rules and took the practically insignificant hit for not delivering the won game instead of rudely imposing themselves on entrants, trying to coerce them into allowing them to be a special exception to the rules. What sort of jerk would imply that only rude people believe in fairness?
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Yes, you'd have to take the NR because that is part of the site rules.
I don't care what you think about others, it's the behaviour that I object to: bullying others into letting you break the rules is shameful.
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It's not requesting that someone agree to deleting the giveaway that's bullying, it's openly stating that everyone should allow you to delete by default (because you are too special for the rules to apply to you) and that anyone that doesn't agree to your exemption is a jerk or rude. This coercive social pressure is bullying - help me subvert the rules or you're not one of us and will presumably be treated accordingly.
Why do you think that common decency doesn't involve following the agreed rules? Common decency would be not to impose yourself on someone when you are in error.
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I never write anything like that in my GAs, BUT... requesting something isn't bullying. At the end of the day, it's up to the winner if they wish to be a jerk and say "No." I'd have no reason to prevent someone from deleting a GA if they so wished. They wouldn't have to write it in the description. I'd be like "key was a dupe, you can delete GA if you want." Each to their own, I guess.
On this site, there are all kinds of people. There are even some that I have seen openly diss someone who had an NR or two on their profile. Fine, if people want to blacklist for that, that's their prerogative, but I can understand some people being a bit paranoid about it, even if I think it's a silly thing to get paranoid over. If someone is going to blacklist you because you have an NR or two, it's not a big deal. They could easily blacklist you for so many other things. It's not worth worrying about .
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Correct, requesting something isn't bullying. I don't have a problem with that being the outcome, I have a problem with people suggesting that it is the default outcome for their giveaways. You seem to think that I am against deletions but you are wrong. I won a wishlist game in January that turned out to be unredeemable in my region so I suggested that the giveaway creator request a deletion. I take offence with your claim that saying no makes you a jerk - asking everyone to except you from the rules makes you a jerk. Yes, some people will blacklist you for just about anything - I probably have some more just for speaking my mind here, but I won't know because I don't look at my blacklist and I don't use the feature myself.
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Why take offense? I didn't call you a jerk. I do think that someone who has no legit reason for refusing to let a gifter delete a GA (so long as they have a genuine reason) to be a bit of a jerk.
Now, I did actually tell someone they could delete a GA after they gave me the wrong key...and they didn't bother. Turns out, that same person ended up on my blacklist. I watched him and he was doing it systematically. He was creating giveaways for and then giving a key for a similarly named trash game. That's what he did to me. When I was going over my blacklist, I noticed that he is currently banned.
I reserve that blacklist for a very small number of people who deserve to be on it. Not simply people with a difference of opinion. :P
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Caring so deeply about rules this much just makes no sense. If they decide to allow the gifter to delete the giveaway since it was a dud what do they lose 5-50 points? sure you could have entered some other giveaways but its still your choice if you want to give him the deletion or not. I'd rather people do these giveaways than keep a game I want in their email or whatever collecting dust just because they dont know if it works anymore or not.
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Yep, this. Thank you for having perspective. Mindless rule-following is insanity. It's how we end up with unreasonable people in society. It's literally like living at the DMV. :D
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Hey man, I just did a job and I think I might have been seen. I'm on parole, so if I get caught, I'll go to prison, but it'd just be your first offence, so you'll be fine. So, I need to leave these stolen goods at your place. Don't be a jerk and say no.
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I dont think this analogy is 1:1 with the stated opinion if thats what you are going for. Also i've never seen anyone try to make their plea look like a rule for a GA but if they did i'm 100% on your side.
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@cicchis0: I see where you're going with that, but your metaphor includes a couple of logical fallacies. One, in most of the cases we're talking about, the giver hasn't done anything wrong and had no malicious intent. Secondly, they're not asking the winner to break any rules or do anything that can get them into trouble. The guidelines actually state that a GA can be deleted so long as the giver and receiver agree upon it. IOW, the rules are made in such a way that if neither party had any malicious intent and agree to be reasonable humans, that deletion allows them a way to ensure that no one has any kind of black mark on their record for a reason that they don't deserve.
Now, if the giver intentionally misrepresented the GA in any way, then the whole thing is a completely different story, and that's where the winner should absolutely leverage the rules. We don't want shady people on SG just trying to build enough CV to extract a bunch of stuff from a good community and then disappear, or just see how much crap they can stir up because they enjoy the chaos. The rules to protect winners exist to prevent things like this, not to punish well-intentioned givers.
And this is why intent is so critical. It's why we have guidelines that allow both parties to communicate and decide upon a different course of action. Heck, it's why we have judges and juries in our legal system -- so that they can determine that if the spirit -- the intent -- of a law isn't being appropriately delivered by simply following the letter, that a different course of action can be followed.
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As I said above, I don't have an issue with giveaways being deleted, having recently suggested that a giveaway creator delete the wishlist giveaway that I won when it couldn't be redeemed in my region. I take offence with idea that some people consider themselves to deserve special rule exemptions by default, and the coercive tactics they use to achieve this. If you don't consider the rules to be the default position, what is the point of having them and why do some people deserve a blanket exemption? How about, "All giveaway creators agree to delete giveaways that I win to help my CV Ratio and just in case I want to onsell the key and not miss out on future SGTools gated giveaways"?
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The GA creator is fully within his/her right to establish extra rules on top of SG rules.
They very specifically aren't, additional rules used to be allowed but that got dropped years back. Sure they can refuse to give you a key if you don't agree to their rules but they can't enforce any after tehy hand over a key.
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Actually I'm pretty sure that refusing to hand over a key because of personal rules are in violation of the guidelines.
In practice, you would come up with some kind of excuse (lost the key, it no longer works, etc.) and they would never be able to tell the difference. But if you claimed that you had the key and simply refused to give it for whatever personal reason, I'm fairly sure you would be punished.
EDIT: You can verify this as when creating a support ticket requesting deletion of a giveaway, you do not have the option to select anything regarding personal rules. You have to provide an actual reason, even if it is a lie (and you would risk the chance of getting found out somehow).
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But if you claimed that you had the key and simply refused to give it for whatever personal reason, I'm fairly sure you would be punished.
There's someone who is now perma-banned for doing exactly that (multiple times).
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he GA creator is fully within his/her right to establish extra rules on top of SG rules.
Actually, no. Any extra rules that GA creators specify in their descriptions are invalid.
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The GA creator is fully within his/her right to establish extra rules on top of SG rules.
Not anymore ;) I remember it used to be possible to set your own rules, but not anymore.
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If a key doesn't work and the creator asks me if I'm ok that he deletes the giveaway, then I'd be actually happy so that win count in my profile doesn't go up by one for a game I didn't even get.
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This, absolutely this.
I myself have a lot of old keys from bundles because I was unable to sort them due to my poor health conditions last couple of years and being busy with finishing University and getting my diploma. Many of these keys are from Indiegala that has been known to have devs invalidate keys later or just in key format.
However if I am not 90% sure the key works I won't make a giveaway for it but will give it to a friend to try or drop it in Orphan keys.
I always write "Pls agree to delete the giveaway if the key doesn't work".
Like you said, its common courtesy after all. So if the person doesn't agree to delete and mark it as "Not received" I'd think they're a d*ck and BL them too, Lol. 😂
BTW I myself never had one of my keys not work, or a won giveaway with such warning with nonworking key.
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if I am not 90% sure the key works I won't make a giveaway for it
Honestly, I think many of the users making the comments are as much as 99% sure. Personally, I've only ever made note of such things myself, for 3 -year old Humble keys (and Humble, of course, doesn't have any inherent inclination towards invalidating keys, but there's always some uncertainty where time is involved; In practice, none of the keys I've noted have failed to activate). Of course, I further also only offer such keys within groups that are accepting towards such, but I can't expect every site user to be that familiar with groups, either.
It's definitely a different matter when you're giving away old GMG or IG keys, since both sites have a bad habit of intentionally invalidating older keys. Those are best used for an "I'll go first" trade, or for direct gifting. However, again, not every user may be familiar with those circumstances. So some leeway should likely be given for potential inexperience.
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Well you can't be that much of an asshole if you landed on my WL and I find all your replies to be reasonable and well thought and agreeable on most of the time. XD :P
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Same... I don't giveaway stuff I'm not sure about...
Which is kinda problem with my IG stuff... I should really find a good place to farm those out... Next level is so far away...
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Yep, this. Exactly what Dano said.
It's kind of like the "Hoyle" rules in cards...they're not really rules, so much as behavioral guidelines as to how to play politely. With so many resellers ripping off devs and devs (usually) not knowing better and revoking keys (and thus punishing the purchasers, not the reseller who did them wrong), if you give a lot, you're eventually going to inadvertently give away a bad key or two.
I've had this happen, and I ask the winner to agree to a deletion. I always offer a replacement game of equal value in its place, though. Most people just say "nah" and tell me not to worry about it, especially if they've been around SG for a while. But for some people, especially if it's a rare win for them, I understand the disappointment, so I jump on Steam IM with them and figure out something to replace it...which I just take the hit on the CV for it. No biggee.
I've also been the winner in these scenarios a few times, and I always agree for deletion of the GA. One person didn't realize they had a region-specific GA and I had no way to claim it (it was a good game, too). The only thing to do in that situation, IMO, is to be cool about it. I told them to delete the GA and re-create it as a proper region-specific one. Life goes on. 乁( ◔ ౪◔)ㄏ
I've never had anyone go, "no you owe me THIS game, so make it happen!" If they did, I would do precisely what Dano said...take the NR hit, and blacklist them for being an unreasonable human from my thousands of future GAs. 😜
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Ahh, this thread has been extremely helpful to pinpoint the elitists and add them to my blacklist! I'd say "never change", but... please do.
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I feel that a GA creator indicating that a key is old and might be invalid is definitely a nice warning to have low expectations. When I was new to SG, I won a GA where the creator failed to state it was an old key that they were uncertain was still any good, it was for a game I really wanted to play. They told me, "Sorry, what can I say? It's an old key. Only thing you can do is agree to a deletion." My expectation had been that if I win the GA I would get to play the game, and instead I was crushed.
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We've actually had this post before and trying to find the one I remember I actually managed to come across another
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/3ltpZ/if-the-key-does-not-work-you-should-agree-to-delete-the-giveaway
This should be the one I was thinking about this since I wrote on it
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/6paoQ/by-entering-you-agree-that-i-can-delete-this-giveaway-if-the-key-doesnt-work
I've seen so many people put it now that its just a way of life. The only time its annoyed me when I saw in past giveaways they went like would you please agree then in their newer ones go you will agree. They are not allowed to just delete it without permission so no matter what anyone says you can enter anything and if its invalid despite what they say its your choice if you agree to delete it or not. No one is gonna stop them from doing it though so just feel free to enter to your hearts content.
In rare cases like the lootboy group though you will be kicked for not deleting but again unless you really care about being in certain groups you still aren't forced to
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Giveaway creators are not allowed to create any rules or requirements for an entry to count. If you can enter the giveaway, your entry is valid. I believe the only time your entry can be invalidated is if it was a group giveaway and you were removed from the Steam group before the giveaway ended or if you have broken the site rules.
Once a winner is chosen, the giveaway creator cannot delete the giveaway without permission from the winner.
It is up to you how you want to proceed. I would personally be nice and agree to delete the giveaway in most situations, but there could be reasons why you may feel that the user deserves to have the not received feedback left on their account and that is up to you.
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I think i wrote something in 2 or 3 giveaways that i would appreciate it ,because the key was kinda old ,but i never did that in a public giveaway ,because crushing someones dreams with a low chance of winning .
so i did that in a group giveaway with only around 20entries .
i only giveaway keys i knew that would work to 99,9% -100% 0.1% doubt was already enough for me to write it
i had no bad keys so far ,only that they sended me 1time the same key on 2different purchases but it got fixed in 1min .
i feel like i probably jinxed myself now
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yeah, it's called coercion, and it shows how little the ga creator cares about sg as a community. it also shows how low people can go because they desperately want to farm 0.15cv from a key they aren't sure it works (give it to a friend or drop it in a thread instead).
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it's called coercion
But... who would be coercing whom? This kind of reminds me of that https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/t9mzuiw, and of the response/question someone gave me ("I'm not sure why you have such feelings of being being under pressure as a giver")
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the ga creator is coercing people, it's pretty easy to see that... 🤷
people are afraid of blacklists, and denying a ga deletion will mostly end up with the winner blacklisted.
when you're not desperate to win a 10-cents game and you don't care about blacklists any more, you start to notice behavioral patterns on sg. this is one of them.
screw people writing that stupid thing in their giveaways.
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I get what you mean with that, I am a bit like, I am not going to accept the deletion faster just because you asked in the description and else I wouldn't or whatever, either I do or I don't.
Some even state 'you auto accept to deletion by joining this giveaway' and I am tempted to not agree just because of that, I am far from an asshole but don't state as if it's a rule or fact because it's not, it's a choice of a person to be nice enough to agree to deletion because you can't deliver what you promised, no matter what reason you have for it.
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these people being "generous" by making giveaways with keys that may or may not work don't even realize they are breaking steamgifts TOS.
it's *funny* to read how they get upset when someone complains about their made-up rules or when they deletion request denied (thus blacklisting that winner, because "the winner was a douche and didn't understand me!" 🤦♀️).
If you post giveaways to the Website, you will be entirely responsible for providing an unused Steam redeemable gift or unused Steam redeemable key (gift or key, further known as "Gift") to a user ("Winner"), who is randomly generated by the Website for each gift represented by your giveaway. You warrant that:
- within 7 days of the giveaway ending, you will use reasonable efforts to send the Gift to the Winner using the Website services, or the e-mail address the Winner has provided; and...
it doesn't get any clearer than this.
the only mistake being made by support is to not add this to the rules, and enforce it (enough with the stupid disclaimers in giveaways).
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Don't be so harsh. What about revoked keys? I know that there is google and even discussion here and I check my keys from IG/HB before I make ga... But what if you will be first one to see that key was revoked?
Argue with developer?
Argue with site where you bought it?
Buy game for the full price on steam.. That is if region restrictions allow you to do it.
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take a not received, or pay $1 and buy a working key.
it's very easy to be generous by not assuming responsibility.
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pay $1 and buy a working key
Well - if it was in a bundle 3 years ago - I won't be able buy it again. And I don't really want to pay f.e. 20$ for the same game on other store (because they won't give me 90% discount because they were touched by my story). Tell winner to wait for next sale? Buy it on steam? Even if - that would work only if he/she is in region I'm able to send gifts.
Idk why everybody is assuming that problem exists only for shady keys from shady sites for shady 0,19$ game-like products.
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No problem :) But If somebody asks me - I'm not going to be the one who gives not received. I think that we should remember that it's some sort of community - and enforcing every rule - for the sake of showing some king of higher moral ground - would hurt morale of both - gifter and winner.
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same goes the other way, letting the giveaway creator delete a giveaway to enforce some higher moral ground is lame and it hurt the site credibility.
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People who use the site know how it works. It has as much credibility as every separate user has. And people who are new to the site? They have no idea about rules or how ga's work. But they see 50 copies of "Furry Stories: Alpha-Male" and 50 copies of "Furry Ladies 🐾" on front page. You can't give worst first impression. Maybe if you encountered nasty pop up advert and that happens sometimes.
I care of my own credibility. Site credibility it's matter of amount and quality of support members, site policy and other factors that I have no influence on.
What makes it all work are giveaways. That's the core. That's what lures people here. I don't see how beeing toxic towards gifters would help the site.
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As Mully said, you either accept the "not received," or you buy a working copy of the game for your winner. That would be the responsible thing to do.
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Ok. What about games pulled off from steam store? Or I if steam doesn't allow somebody to send gift to certain region? Or if somebody have to pay full price for game and can't allow it at the moment?
Sure - some people will mark it as not received. Some (including me) will agree to ga deletion.
Additional rules are not allowed - and that is beyond discussion. The question is - if you as a ga winner want to have game no matter what or you act like part of community - and try to put yourself in situation of gifter. Being a**hole doesn't create healthy and gifters-friendly environment.
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What about games pulled off from steam store?
That's the real issue here, where creator does not have a way to grab another copy.
Or I if steam doesn't allow somebody to send gift to certain region?
It's rare to have game where you could not trade or get cheap keys elsewhere. But to answer - you can add winner on Steam and send them Steam funds. I had few tickets that were solved that way. As creators were not able to gift directly due to price difference.
Or if somebody have to pay full price for game and can't allow it at the moment?
That's half-issue as you can keep giveaway in awaiting feedback status infinitely. Write to the winner, ask for help and I'm sure they are willing to wait some time for you to grab working key on promotion. Again, I solved tickets that way. Heck, I even asked for bit more time to send win to the winner, with one of my first giveaways.
You still need to get their permission though, as they are allowed to mark giveaway as not received after 7 days.
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Leaving giveaway in "awaiting feedback" prevents you from entering giveaways for the same game. In two past GAs I preferred to tell ga creator how to ask for ga deletion over trying other methods because it was too much hassle for me.
Agree on everything you said though. So the answer is: right communication and a little bit of understanding from both sides can save the day!
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Leaving giveaway in "awaiting feedback" prevents you from entering giveaways for the same game.
Yep, that's downside. So it's not for someone who wants to play the game straight away.
Also if you're promised you will get game after creator spots promotion - makes little sense to enter in other giveaways for it (risk of multiple win). It's like winner assumes they will not get the game after waiting time.
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It's like winner assumes they will not get the game after waiting time.
I had financial problems in the past so I can relate to that xD If somebody waits for hard times to pass to buy me a game - I would feel like yet another vulture circling around his/her head for whole waiting period. I would say that I would rather see that GA deleted to my own comfort.
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But it's fun!
At least it looks like on this random gif on the internet, so it must be true
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I seem to recall everything catching on fire immediately after that scene..
:eyes you: Yeah, you would think that's fun. :P
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Honestly, I think I never really watched this movie. So no idea about what this scene is about.
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Moreover, you still have the option to ask for a reroll/cancellation at the point where the creator does have an opportunity to obtain a copy of the game [meanwhile, the creator should attempt to contact you beforehand, if possible, to avoid a disconnect of intentions], so there's no loss in the sense of "but now I'm already getting this bundle with the game!". Likewise, you can always still mark Not Received at the point where another promotion pops up, if the creator isn't able to be contacted at that point. All-in-all, it's a comfortable safety buffer, so long as the creator doesn't show signs of being disreputable [eg, a lot of Not Receiveds].
I forget how, now, but the site glitched me into an unintended giveaway of a newly released game once. The winner in question stated that they were comfortable waiting however-long for a sale, and they simply left the giveaway as Awaiting Feedback. A few months later, the game in question went on sale, I confirmed with the winner, and then we got them the game. Smooth conclusion. The Already Won system definitely adds some inconvenience to Awaiting Feedback that wasn't there before, but it's definitely still a useful option to have.
Of course, that works because it gives control to the winner (and, to some degree, to the GA creator). On the other side of things, the present "All 50 keys of this giveaway aren't working, you winners all enjoy not having a week of being able to enter for this giveaway while the game/dlc/etc is on promotion!" is a fair bit more awkward to deal with. :P
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Ok. What about <insert theoretical possibility here>?
This is why we have "Guidelines" instead of rules and use human beings to moderate our site. What is feasible and/or appropriate will vary according to circumstance.
For the most part, our users work such cases out amongst themselves, and Support is there to help them accomplish it. Then there are those cases which demand a referee, and Support supplies one. As for those users who behave in an anti-social manner, they are shooting themselves in the foot. Just because a person has the right to act stupid does not disallow others from responding to such stupidity.
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0.15 of CV is like +3 already so how can it not be worth it? And winning it is like +0.5 with half of the games restricted.
That doesn't seem to be a very good way to get blacklisted fast tho. First you have to find all such giveaways, enter them and hope to win one just to deny the deletion.
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Honestly, people make a WAY bigger deal out of it than it is.
You mean like calling people assholes, dicks, jerks, and other names? If so, I agree, some people are making a way bigger deal out of it than it is.
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I couldn't care less if it's Russian Steam spam games. But I've seen someone giving away an AAA-title with just that in the description. In that case, I'd definitely mark the GA as not received. :D
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I'd definitely mark the GA as not received.
*if they don't actually deliver it.
Unless you're itching for a permanent suspension, at least. Site rules have zero tolerance for false repping.
Misuse of Giveaway Feedback
Suspension Length: Permanent
That said, staff seems to have a lower tolerance for high profile Not Receiveds, in the sense that they seem more inclined to consider them as intentional or disruptive. As such, one shouldn't be able to bump into too many accounts that manage to have any kind of history of such occurances. Beyond that, issues would mostly be related to new accounts, and those always carry a risk when AAA games are listed.
Nevermind that those with actual scam/troll intentions rarely note anything of the sort in their descriptions and, in some cases [especially prior to the present P refunding system], don't even allow their giveaways to complete. So not usually much of an overlap between the two groups.
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Site rules dictate that a giveaway may be deleted under any circumstance where both creator and winner agree. So yes, it is allowed.
( ^ tl;dr version )
Depending on the phrasing, it may also be distasteful, but in that case the appropriate response is to blacklist, and to not enter the giveaway, meaning the giveaway shouldn't in any way affect those disinclined towards that circumstance. Thereby, these repeated public threads griping about how terrible it is to deal with such requests come across as rather absurd- or, at the very least, misleading in their actual intentions.
On that note, the appropriate way to ask for rule clarifications [on any matter that would involve the behavior of other users] would be to contact support directly, so the fact that we're still getting threads of this sort further calls the actual intent of the users engaging in the practice into question. After all, public outcry on behaviors should be reserved for exploitation, manipulation, power-abuse, etc. Not for rule clarifications on matters that don't harm anyone. (To the contrary, as I'll note further below, they reduce harm.)
In the end, this kind of topic breaks down into any of "I want people to do things my way, while I don't want to consider their perspectives myself", "I'll take any excuse to be hostile in public [ex, note one of the other comments just above]", or "I don't have proper familiarity with the basic site concept that if the giveaway creator doesn't send the key and the winner doesn't agree to a deletion, then the creator gets a Not Received".
Given your stated "but either way the intention is clear" misconception [that is, after all, clearly not intuitive to the examples you provided], I'm assuming you fall into the latter category. The possible perspectives here are "I want users to stop providing relevant information because it bugs me", "I hate how I have to actually read descriptions, it is affecting my botting", and "I'll take any excuse to complain."
Of course, a difference in topical focus could easily make the presentation more legitimate. For example, "I feel Not Receiveds aren't penalized hard enough, in situations where culpabilitiy appears tied to the user, rather than to a specific site mishap or circumstance.". But even there, you wouldn't be emphasizing a change to the information delivery of users as, after all, it is still inherently useful and inherently non-damaging. Users may be discouraged themselves with such a rule change but, it isn't something the community as a whole would be discouraging for any clear benefit.
Side-note, the Orphan Keys thread was a toxic dumpsite plagued by bots and exploiters. Pretty much any alternative is and was recommendable by comparison. Nevermind that the site now allows us to throw out free promo keys, no matter how heavily exploited they may be by a given user, so picking on "Fair warning, this may earn me a Not Received" seems a bizarre sense of prioritization [especially given how sparsely attended maintainence of the free/bundle list has been since October, allowing for quite a few CV exploitations to linger]. After all what is really being argued in thse threads is that the creators of the threads don't want to be pre-warned about potential issues, they'd rather be surprised on a win.
Because, hey- that's what's going to happen if you actually do get a change on this matter. People will simply stop notifying and just act surprised at the end, and hope for the best. Or, they'll move their giveaways exclusively to the groups that openly support such practices, thereby reducing your available pool for entry. Which, given the "if it's not my way, I'll throw a fit" attitude common to these perspectives [after all, as you yourself noted, there's no exploitation or deception occuring here], it would seem rather deserved.
In any case- there is also a site rule where "the user must intend to deliver a (Steam redeemable) game". If the majority of these kind of giveaways were problematic, staff would likely switch over to favoring emphasis on that rule. However, in practice, issues with keys noted as being dubious are extremely rare. People are just getting antsy over the fact that time=uncertainty and similar considerations, and not actually basing their warnings on any concrete concerns. And, due to the fact that there's nearly no risk with such keys, us site users keep posting older keys with the expectation they'll still work (because, nearly every single time, they do). That we go out of our way to give fair warning of the tiny chance of an issue should be to our credit, not discredit.
Any key has a risk of not working, but knowing which ones have higher odds of not working allows entrants to better prioritize their entries. On the other hand, if a user actually is providing non-working keys, staff will properly note any trend of such behaviors (same as they do with all Not Received trends) and warn or penalize the user accordingly. In short, what a user states as far as probability doesn't matter a lick, the only thing that matters is whether or not the user actually has failed to deliver games, and to what extent. And from there, it's a consideration for staff, not the community [excepting perhaps abstract deliberations in regards to what extent of Not Receiveds is worthy of censure].
So sure. Complain about how some users are rude or demanding in their giveaway descriptions [regardless of context]. Complain about users who imply they have the ability to change giveaway rules, when users do not have any ability towards such. Complain about use of grey market sites, especially as it relates to acquiring games for giveaway. Complain about any number of tangental issues related to the present topic, and that's fine. But complaining because someone gave constructive information, in a manner that is easily recognizable, and that those coming across the information have full power to respond to accordingly..
I mean, just why? Isn't that completely cirumventing actual issues to focus on something blameless? Moreover, as I noted above, isn't it self-sabotaging? And why do we need so many threads about the matter? Isn't it basically the new "I don't like people using blacklists" topic, by this point?
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Well - besides all things mentioned above - we have discussions like that not without a reason:
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/Dgscb/a-list-of-games-whose-unredeemed-keys-were-revoked-last-update-17-jan
Basically - even with trusted seller (I considered IG or HB as trusted back in time) you still may encounter invalid key - even if it's unused one. Add to this shitty support that will do anything to not replace keys and you have reason why some people add this description.
If I encounter ga with description like that - I agree. I also agree to delete ga if there is no description at all and there is something wrong with key. Obviously - nobody forces anyone to do it. "No additional rules" rule is still working. It's nice to not punish people for making ga's imo.
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Is there a rule against this kind of giveaway? And if not, should there be?
There's no rule against it, and I believe it's an unnecessary addition to giveaways, one that leads users to believe they're obligated to allow the deletion.
If a key doesn't work, one can simply (and kindly) ask after the giveaway is over if the winner is cool with a deletion. The winner is under no obligation to allow the deletion. Most of this stems from the "stigma" (stupidly, imho) attached to getting a "Not Received" around here. I've received a few bad keys myself, and while I've nearly always been able to purchase another at a reasonable price, in the cases I cannot, I ask the giveaway winner if they're okay with deleting the giveaway, and usually they're fine with it. If they're not, a Not Received is not that big a deal.
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Its allowed but you don't have to follow what they say - the rules are what matters :3
I've had one very extreme case where I'm buying a game which is only available through the Steam store and it turns out the game is not for sale in the country the receiver is in. I normally check SteamDB to check the regional pricing to make sure I can gift worldwide but it didn't occur to me that the game wouldn't be for sale in that country.
The game was called China: Mao's Legacy - so I shouldn't need to mention which country this game wasn't/isn't for sale in ;)
I'd much rather cross the bridge of replacing keys or asking someone to delete a giveaway when I get there rather than pre-emptively put up a disclaimer.
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Even if somebody doesnt write something like this... its okay when he cant deliver and i agree to delete, 'cause sometimes its just a pain when some dev revokes a bundle key and it can*t be activated... i know that feeling.
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Sadly, rules here a vague, so everything depends on decisions of moderators. And they seem to tolerate this practice.
You, of course, don't have to follow this request and agree to giveaway deletion.
And yes, I really believe that this situation is out of hands and need to be resolved, this way or that. Either this behavior should be disallowed in rules, or it should be explicitly allowed, and maybe even automated to decrease load on support.
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I guess you came to the conclusion that you were the trolling or dumb one? I'm sure a good night's sleep will help you to see things more clearly.
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In my opinion, if people can't provide a valid key, they should simply take the "not received" mark and move on.
Shit happens. So what if you've got one of those red marks? Or even a few? That is certainly not the end of the world.
Asking a winner if they're ok with deleting the GA wouldn't even cross my mind so I don't really understand why people do that. There's no penalty for getting "not received" afaik so why bother support with one more ticket?
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What about 100 not receiveds? Or 1000? On top of them ruining perfection they can have consequences too if you start to pile too many of them.
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Then there better to be consequences. I deeply believe that people should be forced to stand behind their giveaways. As not getting game can really ruin a day and prevent you from entering further ones.
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That's my belief as well and what I have been doing. I guess some people just have a more built character than others.
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not getting game can really ruin a day
Same with standing on a land mine. But I would rather not get a game if I had to choose.
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Yeah makes perfect sense that if the first 300 keys have worked fine then the next 200 are shady dupe keys, everyone knows this. How about I give whatever I want and not what some random people online think I should?
Nope, I get 0 because I actually take care of my giveaways unlike some people who seem to think it's perfectly fine to just make fake giveaways and get those marks. This site needs more tegridy instead of more fake giveaways with a who cares attitude.
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There is nothing to decipher if you can just read.
Why are you addressing me with ducking responsibility? I'm still not the one promoting the behavior of
1) make a giveaway
2) notice a key is dupe
3) tell the winner to fuck off and take a red mark
Was that clear enough for you? I still have 0 marks because I actually take responsibility unlike the people promoting that.
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What about... accountability?
No one is forced to give away games. You (not necessarily you, my dear elf-orc-humping-lover, but people in general) choose to creates ga's. If you can't provide your winners with a working game key, it's your problem. Just accept that red mark on your profile, that's it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't really like how some people suggest that agreeing to have a ga deleted should be common courtesy... it kinda implies that not doing so makes you a jerk. The whole thing makes it feel like it's not ok to disagree on GA deletion but it's perfectly acceptable to not "suffer" the consequence of not being able to provide winners with redeemable keys. Dunno, man... it should be the other around, if you ask me.
Apart from racking up red marks... and maybe getting blacklists because of that, are there any other consequences? I don't think so. I've never read of someone getting the banhammer for having too many "not received".
If there were some kind of drawbacks to having too many "not received" feedback, I wouldn't mind. And if there never were, I wouldn't mind either. I don't really care. O_o I just don't understand why people seem to be so scared of getting "not received" feedback.
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Nobody is forcing anyone to join giveaways either so that logic works both ways. Just accept that you didn't get the game this time and move on instead of being an asshole, that's it.
So you think the givers should be punished rather than the leechers? This is the attitude that is ruining this site, the ones who give nothing have all the rights and the ones who give everything have only responsibilities.
Blacklist is a much better way to handle the situation, agree to delete giveaway and just BL them if you feel like it instead of stomping your foot on the ground going "Boohoo I want the game! I need it! I deserve it!" like a kid in a candy store.
There are drawbacks like getting suspended if you get too many of them. Where did this idea even come from that you can catch'em'all and nothing happens? That you can just keep on making fake giveaways, get red marks and ask staff for more slots. I can't understand why people seem to be so scared of fictional rape. OCD or any other kind of perfectionism is far easier to understand.
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You should join the level 10 club where we just trade GTA Vs with each other all day.
Overinflated sense of entitlement just brought back a memory of one winner in a giveaway where like half of the keys were dupe but there were OK ones too. Everyone else with a dupe key managed to message me about it and got replacements. But this one winner first thanked me for the win implying it's all good and then later replied to their own message with it being dupe. I had already processed that page of comments and moved on, obviously got no notification about their message and they just marked it not received a week later. When I told them to message the giver next time instead of themself if they want to get a new key faster they started bitching about how I should have just given them a working key to begin with. :D
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I had this happen, too. Bought 20 keys from DIG, half didn't work. DIG didn't want to replace them because they were having so many issues with that particular game and the dev, so they refunded half of my money. I eventually was able to delete all of the bad keys, and of course offered alternate consolation prizes (only one person took me up on it, but of course I was fine with that, otherwise I wouldn't have offered :) ). But it was a pain in the ass. I mean, no one gives keys expecting them to be bad (well, at least I don't), but there are situations beyond the giver's control.
We should all keep in mind, too, that GA slots are earned (5 GAs = 1 slot), and every time you do a deletion, you're losing a slot. So that snafu of DIG's cost me 10 slots, which means I had to do a NEW set of 50 GAs to get them back. People keep forgetting about that...that deletions aren't free, so the giver is already taking a hit, not to mention the hassle of opening a ticket (and many thanks and apologies to support for dealing with this stuff).
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I usually bought 500 keys from DIG because 20 cost 4€, 100 5€, 250 7.5€ and 500 10€. And always took care that I had plenty of replacements if some of them turned out bad, but that didn't help when dev revoked all of them at once instead of just the usual double selling some etc. Pic related if you want to talk about PITA. :P
Slots are the least of my worries, altho I once managed to lose 800 slots in an hour while trying to do a drunken train. Also lost 800 keys because I deleted them due to wrong ending date and forgot that I cut&pasted the keys with no backups. After "Oh shit" came "Oh well" and then coming to forums to laugh at people suing devs for a +1 they lost. Good thing our nice Support gave me enough extras to do the actual train. :D
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Lol, ok, that's a good one. Wow...I really wouldn't have wanted to deal with that one. Honestly, stuff like this is why I stopped doing the big 50+ GAs...the potential for it becoming a managerial nightmare just became too high. If I find a hot deal on DIG with some $1 unbundled game for 5 cents a pop, I'll grab 10 or 20 and throw them out to the world for fun, knowing that if something goes wrong I can at least have it completely handled in a day or two.
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I totally agree with your first paragraph. Is there anything that I previously wrote that suggests otherwise? I don't think winners should make a big fuss if their key turned out to be a dupe. Now, seeing some of your -and other peeps'- replies, it seems that some winners will act in a disrespectful manner if they don't get a working game key, turning themselves into whiners. That is obviously not ok in my books.
So you think the givers should be punished rather than the leechers?
Damn. You kinda made some big conclusion right there, my friend. O_o You're talking about leechers, people who don't give away games. I don't think I've ever said anything that could remotely imply that. Punishment. Punishment? Do you consider getting a "not received" feedback a form of punishment? I personally don't. It's not a punishment, it's just a consequence.
There are drawbacks like getting suspended if you get too many of them.
Really? This is news to me. I don't think there's anything about that in the FAQ/guidelines. [shrugs] Well... so what if you get suspended for a few days? It's not the end of the world either.
I just think both parties should move on if shit happens. I mean... you win a game, it's a duped key and you don't get a replacement? You mark it as not received and move on. You ga a game, winner says they can't activate it and you can't provide a replacement key? You take the red mark and move on. In my opinion, this is how it should work. Now, if someone wants to ask permission to have their ga deleted... sure. I think that what irks me a bit is seeing ga descriptions saying something like "entrants must agree to delete the ga if the key cannot be redeemed". One of my giveaways was marked as not received. It never occurred to me to ask for deletion. It certainly didn't deter me from making giveaways either.
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I see your points here. Something that I think that I'm getting from your response (and with which I agree) is whether the giver is asking for a deletion vs. demanding one. Because demanding deletion is just as unreasonable as demanding someone buy a replacement key at full value because the bundled key they gave got revoked by a dev.
For me, it seems that if both parties are (as I kind of keep saying) reasonable humans, and if everyone involved will assume the most reasonable interpretation of intent, that deletion shouldn't be a big deal for either party. That changes if the giver misrepresented things on purpose...then they definitely deserve whatever consequences are coming their way. Beyond that, we don't want people like that on Steamgifts.
For me, sometimes I will put a statement on an event where there are a lot of keys, because the potential for something to go wrong among all of them is logically pretty high. But, I always try to ask for people to understand and accept a deletion if something goes wrong as opposed to demanding it (ok, I might say it in a snarky way, but that's because a lot of my posts are full of silliness and absurdity). And, as I've said before, I offer some kind of replacement prize (if the winner wants one -- some people don't) if this happens. I will jump on Steam IM with them and post a list of equitable game options and let them choose from them...and then I'm eating the CV. I do that because I hate it when someone is excited about a win and then something goes wrong with it...that's the opposite of my intent of giving away the stuff in the first place. I'm trying to create happiness, not disappointment.
I think that process is very fair (which I why I do it), and I have yet to have a single person insist that I give them the original game from the GA (and usually the keys that don't work are for cheap indie games anyway, so there's not a big emotional investment in that particular game for the winner, which is another reason this process works well IMO). If they did insist, then at that point I would consider that behavior to be unreasonable and I would take the NR hit...and that unreasonable human would receive a very rare spot on my blacklist (because I only BL people for what I consider to be pretty egregious behavior).
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You ga a game, winner says they can't activate it and you can't provide a replacement key? You take the red mark and move on. In my opinion, this is how it should work.
Agreed. I'm fully prepared for that possibility every time I make a giveaway, and I tell you what - it hasn't stopped me from making giveaways yet.
For me, there's no worse feeling on this site than disappointing someone who's just won a giveaway of mine.
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I don't want a criminal record. If something goes wrong I try to replace the key but sometimes I couldn't and asked for the winner to allow me to delete.
I bet some people say "by entering you agree to let me delete" just to scare people who don't know better. The truth is the winner get's to choose whether to allow the creator to delete. I think allowing is a nice thing to do, but not everybody deserves it (you can choose your own criteria)
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I don't mind. It's free and voluntary to enter.
But hey... "Schrödinger's Giveaways"... that's funny 😊👍
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And people still wonder why the number of giveaways is steadily going down with such hateful attitudes towards the people who make the giveaways.
Coercing and demanding that you get something for free makes you the asshole in this case, not the one who tried to give it to you but failed for external reasons like shitty devs.
Just make a rule forbidding any games to be given away and you don't have to get so triggered if you don't get that game, simple as that.
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Should be allowd. If not allow, there will be a lot of keys wasted at outside.
People do this because there are several time the old key got problem.
Sometime there are a lot of old bundle key in hunble bundle / groupees / fanatical / indiegala.
No one know after 3-4 years those key still can work or not, sometime their store system may accidentally give a duplicate key to buyer if you not claim it at earlier time.
So this is the safe way to protected both party at here. No way person that doing giveaway for good will risk their account because of this.
If this is not allowed, then it will be less and less key gift to other people and those keys will be wasted in owner hand or it become more owner trying to sell it at grey market.
Some say you can post those key directly at forum to let people claim. That is 0 risk at there but as we all know, most of the time those key will be hijack by bot and not the person really use it plus it will become first come first get. Doing giveaway at here at least give other people a chance to win rather than grab by bot or first person.
Those that not agree with this rules can decide not joining it. No one force someone to join it.
This same as outside world for any giveaway, there are always some rules for those giveaway, some maybe need you to queue at there about 3 hours due to many people want to get it, if you don't like to queue for that long just for that, you can decide not queuing it because no one force you to get that.
So it is just simple thing that you agree you join, you not agree you don't join. People that doing giveaway can decide it and people that want it also decide want to agree or not.
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As someone who has given away very old bundle keys, and also have lived through gogo bundle dying and developers revoking their keys we paid for... yes, we need this ability to put a disclaimer.
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I've got a spreadsheet with a bunch of unredeemed keys back when Fanatical used to be known as Bundle Stars. Most of the time they still work. Occasionally, a couple of them hasn't. As they explained it to me, developers can revoke keys at any time - new or old. Even the unused ones. But they are very good about giving me a new key when it doesn't work... unless it was for a game that was pulled from Steam.
Despite having that small risk, I would rather create a GA using an old key for somebody who will want it over dumping it in the orphan key thread where it will most likely be scooped up by some ungrateful person or a bot.
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Not sure if this is the right board to post this question, so forgive me if I'm in the wrong place.
The thing is, for a while now I've been seeing a lot of giveaways that basically say "if you join this giveaway you must agree not to complain when I don't give you the game you won." Of course they never actually phrase it that way and it's usually more like "I've got this old key and I don't know if it still works" or "I bought this key from someone extremely unreliable so maybe it has already been used," but either way the intention is clear.
What I'm wondering is, is this allowed? The rules state that you must send the game you're giving away, so that's clear enough. Now I'm not implying that these users are trying to scam the system or anything, since AFAIK a deleted giveaway doesn't add to your contributor level, but it does seem like this is an attempt to create giveaways without actually committing to giving away a game. When I was still more active on this site instead of creating these Schrödinger's Giveaways there used to be orphan key threads where people would dump keys they weren't sure were useable, so people could (maybe) enjoy the games but they wouldn't create a hassle with giveaways that may or may not be legit. That seems to me like a much less confusing way of doing things.
Is there a rule against this kind of giveaway? And if not, should there be?
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