I'm saying refunding orders is their final decision.
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So they can't charge us back what we paid? Because I'm in an awkward situation where I've activated keys and also have a refund and I'm worried about them charging me again because I've activated keys. Is this actually possible?
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I think it depends on how shameless they are. If their next step is to revoke activated keys, then they are far more shameless than how we can imagine.
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I didn't know. English is not my first language. I though the two words have the same meaning. Maybe you are right. Thanks.
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Actually, shameless would suggest they have no shame, making it even worse than shameful.
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But guys, does this mean it's all over? The money and the games are mine?
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Ireland, and I'm pretty sure what they did was completely illegal in Europe. I'm banking on GG leaving the Europeans alone because we could, if it went that far, go format class action lawsuit against them.
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Hahahaha. :D No. But whenever anyone suggests a lawsuit, it makes me smile, so please continue. :)
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I live in China. There were already many times that similar mistakes happened to an online store, and most of the result were either the merchant was forced to fulfill the order, or to pay double the paid price back to the customer. Although some of the cases were actually being dead (but still open) cases because of some shameful (corruption etc.) reason.
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I did my obligation (paying orders) in signed contracts. Is that called greedy?
I was actually trying to buy one, but the website couldn't open the webpage after I bought the first 4-pack and I didn't know the order was successful (because I didn't receive any email after first purchase) so bought it again. But hey, if I was going to send gifts to more of my friends and I need 8 copies, can't I bought two packs? That's normal, isn't it? I can buy whatever copies I want as long as I can afford.
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I can confirm that what miller4 described happens in China ALL THE TIME, ie pages not loading properly or loading to a blank page.
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Here is the rub: if they made the pricing "mistake" on purpose, hoping for buzz and attention, but never intending to honor the price, then it would constitute fraud in most jurisdictions (U.S. included). Any lawsuit will allow discovery and in-office memos and emails would show this scheme. My bet is someone, somewhere, will sue. If they happen to be based where class action lawsuits can be formed, then six or seven years down the road a lot of you will get an email regarding a settlement and you can enjoy a few extra bucks :)
My guess - this wasn't an honest mistake. I think that with a lot of digital distributors out there, they wanted to stand apart. Well, looks like they definitely stand apart with a lot of angry customers that will just take business elsewhere.
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Why? It keeps happening over and over again. You'd have thought this would have been fixed by now. It seems like a pretty plausible scenario.
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PayPal dispute? I think they will do nothing about it, you got your money back via the paypal.. I can raise a dispute too.. if you will convince me with some good reason to do so. You think that PayPal will look into the whole gamersgate thing and ask them to give us the BL2 4packs? I am not sure about that..
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No, I don't think PayPal will look into it. But active refunding and passive refunding have different meaning to a PayPal merchant.
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You're a damn hypocrite.
"Please don't discuss right or wrong here, there's many other threads for the discussion. Please don't fire on opposite opinions."
then:
"But, as a customer, I feel I was cheated."
Duh, you're making a value statement about right or wrong. You feel you were wrong. Jesus, like we needed ANOTHER thread about this shit so whiny, stupid, greedy people like you can complain even more?
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first why is he greedy? as far as his consideration he bought 2 4packs for the price they asked for.
second he just said what he feel as a paying customer and thats the reson he made this thread.
he only said his felling, and didnt want to discuss if he is right or wrong. as i allready said; he told us his thought as a customer and a request to the other customers that feel that way.
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Thanks Rikku.
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I was reimbursed today too. Didn't have a chance to get the keys, though. Bethesda pack is still on my shelf, and I've redeemed 2 keys from it (Skyrim and Fallout NV). I only got refunded for the BL2 4-pack.
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I wasn't so lucky. :( The exchange rate fluctuated between my payment and my refund, so all I got was one copy of Borderlands 2 for £0.02. :(
I WILL SUE BECAUSE I AM ANGRY AND STUPID AND MY LIFE IS EMPTY AND UNFULFILLED.
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Once a merchandise has been labeled a price for whatever reason, and a customer has clearly ordered without cheating the system, the merchant has made a contract with the customer and the contract is protected by law, no matter the order is fully, partially or not paid, both of the merchant and the customer has the responsibility to fulfill the contract, anyone is prohibited to refuse to pay or fulfill unless the merchant and the customer have made another agreement upon canceling the order under a fair condition at their own wish.
In the UK at least if a item is listed as a certain price then you cannot be charged more unless it can be proven that it was obviuously a mistake such as misprinted advertising and such. In this case we all knew it was a pricing error, they later confirmed it and could easily have shown that price was never intentional. As such making that purchase could be seen as cheating the system and they wouldn't be obligated to fulfil the order.
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"... unless the merchant and the customer have made another agreement upon canceling the order under a fair condition at their own wish"
GG TOS:
GamersGate reserves the right to change the price and availability of any products at any time without notice; provided, however, such price change will not affect your purchase price for orders that GamersGate has already received from you and processed.
As discussed in another SG thread, I'm pretty sure that if you did not receive a key, your order has not been "processed" and this all means, that they will not charge you more money if you successfully bought a discounted game and the price goes up.
Anyway: why did you post this, if you did not want a discussion?
To inform the world wide web that you feel cheated? You could have done that on your personal blog. If you post here you can surely expect a discussion ;)
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The TOS thing, I'm in China, in here prices in a contract can never be changed without making agreements with each other (after signing the contract) otherwise it will be scamming. So this kind of statement is obviously invalid and unsupported by law here.
There's a different view of "processed" here, we must fulfill the contract if it's already been signed, no matter it's processed or not, paid or unpaid. There is a statement that I can't recall the the whole sentence, but the meaning of is something like publishing a product with clearly labeled price will be treated as a pre-signed contract, and according to previous similar cases, I think pressing the submit order button in the last ordering step will likely be treated as "sign the contract" too as usual. Not to mention we have paid the order, means we have finished our obligation, only their part is left.
Just like one day you feel upset and you post a thread to complain what you have been through yesterday, I post this to say the words in my mind and seek the same tune.
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I got refund, tho.. one of the copy which i gifted is on my shelf, i can click on get code but there are no more atm :/
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I mean, I understand anyone can make a mistake. But if you make THE SAME STUPID MISTAKE 5+ times IN A WEEK, and you do exactly NOTHING about it... Yea, I don't feel bad for them.
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The reason I don't feel bad for them is because of how shittily they've treated paying customers caught up in all this. I'd feel bad this happened to them if I'd gotten the feeling they were genuinely apologetic to customers (beyond their own financial issues) and cared about those customers, but nothing I've seen seems to suggest they care even the slightest about their customers. They've treated them like dirt throughout all of this.
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publisher =/= distributor (or seller in this case)
your logic is flawed
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So you are going to screw 2K and Gearbox by stealing it because GamersGate had a pricing error?
No offense, but that's a huge dick move.
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some get $5, some get $11 depend on country I guess, iirc someone told me he got $3.xx for that 4-pack.
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I've seen people said $5.xx but I didn't know about the $5.xx thing. When I opened the webpage, it says -94% and the price was $11.25.
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i hope you lose them all, how dare you horde all of those keys for yourself, you dont deserve a single one, tons of people spent hours on there site trying to get in to buy and you think you can come in horde them and give to your friends? get lost you should have been aborted
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Like others, I'm confused why you open this thread and then tell people not to discuss it. You just wanted a soapbox? Too bad.
This attitude is ridiculous. You KNOW it was pricing error. This wasn't a "failed marketing attempt". You weren't cheated. There was a series of errors in their system, you tried to TAKE ADVANTAGE of them, and they said "Wait hold on. That's not the right price. We can't give you that deal. Sorry." Swimming through legalease and trying to justify why they should give you the games at a price that you know was wrong - THAT'S what is wrong.
You tried to take advantage of an pricing error, you weren't able to. Move on with your life.
If this really "ruined your holiday" and you feel "shamed", you need to take a hard look at your priorities in life, friend.
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So here you are telling that it was wrong taking advantage of it but if remember correctly werent you complaining about not geting a key in another thread? Oh you did get your key.. So if you wouldnt have got your keys which you did by taking advantage of the error maybe you would be writing something else..
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^This
If someone wants to take advantage of a clear pricing error, they are fully in their right to do so, but in doing so, they should be smart enough to realize that they may not actually have their order fulfilled. GG is NOT the first site to have these problems. Big names like Dell and HP have both had it happen to them multiple times and their actions varied based on the severity of the order (HP honored a discount on a hard drive, but not when it was a full computer that was priced for $1k less than it should have).
As long as they refund you the full amount (meaning no restocking fee, etc.), they are fully in their right to not fulfill an order. E-Commerce 101. Whine all you want about your country's laws - you are wrong.
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I was telling my thoughts and my feeling as a customer. I was asking not to discuss right or wrong because there are other threads for the purpose. You can share your feelings here too, such as you are very happy they have refunded you, or you are very happy that you didn't buy the game at the discount price and you are feeling proud of yourself, etc. Feelings, do you have feelings? Do you share your feelings and thoughts with your friends or with the friendly guys in a forum?
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Guys be carefull of people on steamtrades trying to sell keys they got from these packs. If gg does revoke then that is bad for the people trading them
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can someone please go to this thread and help me get my point to this guy lol http://www.steamtrades.com/forum/Ti5r9/hsell-2x-borderlands2-key-w-keys-games
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No, Gamersgate doesn't have the power to revoke activated keys, or even invalidate keys provided that have not been activated yet.
They can only remove games from your shelf on their website. They would have to go to the publisher and the publisher would have to agree to request that Valve invalidate keys.
It's almost never done on a large scale. 2K and Bethesda aren't going to do that.
Why? A couple big reasons:
Because GG screwed up, not them. GG owes them money, and revoking the keys from customers doesn't directly fix that problem in any way.
Because it's horrible PR and bad business, and thus not only does it not directly solve the fact that GG owes them a lot of money, it works against them by voluntarily seeking blame that no one is currently putting upon them! Everyone is hating on GG right now, and the publishers (who have done nothing wrong) would have to like GG a whole lot to be willing to fall on their swords by asking Valve to revoke activated keys. They'd basically be saying, "Ooh, I want some of that bad PR that Gamersgate is getting!"
Even in prominent cases of actual stolen or leaked keys in the past, the publishers haven't sought to revoke most keys. Dirt 3, Dead Island, AIwars keygen, A Valley Without Wind, IGN free trial abuse, etc. people who got those compromised keys still have the games on their accounts.
And from past incidents of actual theft, why are most of those compromised key activations still on people's accounts, while some were in fact removed? It's because Steam also has a process to allow individual users to request a reset of retail CD-keys they purchased but turned out to be used.
So AFAIK to get a stolen game removed, someone would have had to buy that key legitimately later, as in retail box, complain to Steam and/or the publisher, at which point the key is reset. Otherwise they just let it slide, since it's easier to write those off.
That explains why some compromised keys did get revoked, but also that it wasn't a mass action on the part of the publisher to revoke all those keys. And those were downright stolen (or close to it). This is simply a retail pricing error. There's basically zero chance they're going to do that here.
So if you were lucky enough to get an actual alphanumeric key from Gamersgate (and not simply a promise of a key in the future), then the key is valid.
Even if Gamersgate decides to remove the game from your shelf, the key is still valid, because it was generated by Valve at the request of the publisher, then provided to the retailer by the publisher. GG simply distributes them, it doesn't create or revoke them.
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i dont know i was just pointing out what someone else said thats why i said it
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actually no your still wrong, you kept insisting that this thread was about the OP getting a refund because he never received his keys. which is obviously not the case, cause the thread is about the price being incorrect and them refunding people since they didnt want to honor the lower incorrect price and lose money. so again LOL
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EDIT: Sorry, just reread this and I realized that my point doesn't fully come across; This is how I think it should be, not how it is.
See, now what I don't understand is why you try to implement one country's laws on the internet, the place that is basically above this whole country thing.
Because, you see, the internet (and get this, this is amazing) can be accessed by anyone. And that means that every country's laws ever apply on the internet. Which would not make sense in the least (as many countries have different laws, and there are laws against using other countries laws in your country without having a vote, at least here in Sweden).
Also, to use this argument is very pro-SOPA/ACTA/anything else like it. Because it pushes the point that there is a country that can control the internet.
The truth is, it doesn't. You can't apply your laws to a company based solely on the internet. The "internet's laws" are those set up by the owner of the page you are surfing on right now. Nothing more, nothing less.
OH BUT OMG MAYBE SOMEONE HAD CHILD PORN ON THEIR COMPUTER IS THAT OK BY YOU?!?!?!?!?!?! OMG DIS GAI IS LYK A PEDO OR SUMTING LOL
No, no it is not. But, however the person in question can't be punished on the internet. It's against the law to have child pornography stashed on your computer, however (and for those of you who don't fully understand how a computer works, it downloads all images and things you see from the internet when you open it up for the first time). Even if you have them on your computer for less than 10 seconds while browsing porn, you would be breaking the law of your country, since it exists on your hardware.
BUT UR RONG AGEN LOL I HAV DA GAEMS ON MAH COMPUTAR LOL DIS GY'S DUM
Yes, you might have. But, one, steam will most likely NOT revoke any keys you added. Second, the fault at hand is not on your computer, but on the internet website "wwww.gamersgate.com". Which is on the internet, if you haven't noticed.
And sorry for portraying any potential things you said like it was written by a 12 year old wigger.
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Who said I try to implement one country's laws on the internet? So you mean you can run a website and do whatever you want to your visitor without any restriction? Is that called outlaw? IMHO, if they can't comply the laws in a country, they can simply stop selling games to the country, just like how region restricted games do. If they sell, then learn how to obey the law.
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But if they were to obey this law of "it's illegal to recall a sell" thing, then they couldn't sell to countries that don't have that law, because it's against the law of country #2.
Do you see the conundrum?
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If obeying the law in each country that their business is running in has become impossible for them, then they are not suitable for business and that's their problem. Countless companies are doing this thing well in this world.
I'm a customer and I don't solve the problem for them. And not just on the internet, obeying laws in each country you sell any goods is really necessary -- for selling both digital and non-digital goods.
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Every page owner is under some country laws - and usually those will be laws of place where server is placed. Maybe you heard about trying to get down some nazi pages, which worked until nazis started their pages in counties where being nazi is not illegal.
And online shops must have some laws. If they won't, there would be nothing they could do if some hackers would hack and steal something. Of course, that protection usually comes with some costs - consumer rights, for example.
Steam made it clear - any law-thingie will be disputed in Washington for World or in Luxemburg in EU (and if "the laws of Luxembourg provide a lower degree of consumer protection than the laws of your country of residence, the consumer protection laws of your country shall prevail").
Now, question is what laws GamersGate is under...
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It is usually stated that a website is charged under the laws of the country where it's servers is.
However, I find this completely moronic, as you could easily have 2 servers in different locations and suddenly be completely lawless.
Now, I have no clue where GamersGate have their servers, but they are a Swedish company, so I would assume that they are in Sweden.
And refunding something because of a price error (due to faulty programming, and not some asshat who sat the price too low for shits and giggles) is legal here as far as I know, because I remember there was some trial before about this sort of matter, and they got a pass.
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IF you'd have two servers, you'd still be giving data from one of them. Even if layout is on one and letters on second. In that case, courts would have to decide which one is correct to whole thing. Which might take time, true, but in the end it could be found out - in case of shop, it probably would go to that server that took your money.
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I didn't mean truly lawless, sorry.
I meant, lawless as in they can choose where to put their servers so that they get the biggest amount of freedom for what that server does.
Which is why we can't base laws on internet webpages like this.
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From their Terms of Use, that would be equivalent of a contract:
18. Applicable Law; Jurisdiction
The Terms of Use is governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of New York, excluding conflict of interest laws. You agree to submit to the personal jurisdiction of the courts of the State of New York for any cause of action arising out of or relating to the Website or the Terms of Use.
However, in the receipt the payment was made to a swedish address.
So, you are buying stuff from Sweden or from the USA?
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The servers might be in the states, but the account in Sweden.
Most likely you are buying from US and under US law then.
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So OP felt cheated because he wasn't able to take advantage of a(n obvious) pricing error and so, because the OP had a (subjective) bad experience with GamersGate he wants everyone to 'rise to arms' and join his cause. Not to mention, GG did not actually break the TOS.
This needs to be said: grow up you stupid kid.
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Learn what rights the law has granted you and open your heart to accept the fact that there are minds and sounds different from yours in this world kid.
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Regardless of what the law says, whining about not receiving $90 worth of games for $10 ($5 or $2.50 in some places!) due to a pricing glitch is childish. Holding back those buckets of tears over a small bit of spilled milk (missed opportunity) has everything to do with "growing up."
But you know how adults handle situations where they feel wronged? Something the law also allows for? Taking the issue to court instead of whining about the situation until their mommy or daddy fixes the problem for them. If someone refuses to utilize this (ie. it's not worth the effort) then they have no basis to complain about being a victim.
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The world in your eyes is so simple and small that you can't even imagine the complex part. People have their free speech, surely you have yours. But don't come to my thread and pretend you are the only adult in the forum and call anyone a kid as you please, that doesn't make you an adult. Starting your talk with that kind of sentences is an offense and you surely knew what you were doing if you were an adult.
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Sick of these people bitching about GG. it should be added to the rules than any bitching about GG will result in a ban.
You tried to abuse a pricing glitch... you failed... get over it!
GG probably realized after numerous attempts at getting people to cancel themselves that they could not possibly fulfill all the exploited orders without digging their own grave.
The people still complaining about this are just scumbags whining about not getting their own way when trying to rip off a reputable company.
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Paradox, the company behind GamersGate, is a very reputable videogames publisher and developer. If you weren't so stupid, you would realize that Valve is not the only reputable company with a Digital Store.
Also, the OP is clearly an annoying kid that complains because he couldn't abuse GamersGate pricing errors, even though the GG TOS stipulates that they reserve the right to give refunds in such cases. Cry more and grow up.
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How much have you bought from GG?
I've bought a ton of products and recommended my friends to buy there also,
No problems encountered by me or any of my friends.
I personally managed to snag Blades of Times Limited Edition For £6.99 or so 2-3 months after its release during a GG price glitch.
I knew that was a glitch and i only bought it because of that.
If they had then forced a refund i wouldn't be crying like a little bitch about it,
I would just accept that i wasn't going to get away with ripping them off.
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I have the same feeling as yours when I was reading their posts. And I am curious about why some people have to madly jump out and yell at others when they hear voices different from theirs.
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They've fucked up lots of times over the last couple of YEARS, actually, and us customers have had lots of great games at great prices because of it. I'm not defending their pricing system (they should really have fixed it by now), but I do like their glitchy price system because it gives me games more cheaply.
Why wouldn't you like that? Very strange... oh, did you try to get in on the bargain but were too late? I've seen people get angry over that before. Either that, or you genuinely want to spend more money on games. This Steam sale must be killing you... can't buy a thing from Steam until everything's back to RRP, I guess? ;)
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If this got to court and you won it would be a victory for many other people. It's a principal case and it would be good if someone someday stood up against the "big guys" and won. If it would be necessary i would donate to you for a lawyer, just to drag this case to court
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Thanks. As I said in my thread, I think it's not worth it for me to sue them. But I really think that some companies just were cheating on customers too many times and they really deserve a proper punishment by the law. I'll be glad to see someone organizes a class action.
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Class action for what? You got your goods or you got your money back (sometimes both).
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In some country, if you refuse to fulfill a contract does not mean you can just refund the money and then go away.
For example, in China, if the merchant fails to fulfill the contract, he will be charged double the paid price back to the customer if the customer has been charged for the order. And if the affected total price (total number of the money that all customers have paid) in this case is greater than 3000 RMB (about $500), it becomes a committed crime and what you are waiting will be worse and even jail that not just as easy as paying double the price back. And I think if they sell this game to visitors from China, they must comply with the Chinese law.
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Please don't discuss right or wrong here, there's many other threads for the discussion. Please don't fire on opposite opinions.
I bought 2 Borderlands 2 4-Packs in the holiday flash sale (also AKA a pricing glitch). They refunded me only one after they fixed the price. And I thought the reason they didn't refund the other one pack was because I've opened the 4-pack (but keys were never given to me). I was wondering how they will handle the opened packs, so I've given them a chance, I didn't raise a PayPal Dispute, I waited patiently.
Today, I received another email from PayPal saying that they've refunded me the other pack -- the opened pack. No surprise to me actually because I was one of the canceled IGN prime discount owner.
But, as a customer, I feel I was cheated. I don't know if it's legal in England and Switzerland, but I know it's illegal in some country, and totally illegal in my country -- even their TOS says anything to support this behavior -- Once a merchandise has been labeled a price for whatever reason, and a customer has clearly ordered without cheating the system, the merchant has made a contract with the customer and the contract is protected by law, no matter the order is fully, partially or not paid, both of the merchant and the customer has the responsibility to fulfill the contract, anyone is prohibited to refuse to pay or fulfill unless the merchant and the customer have made another agreement upon canceling the order under a fair condition at their own wish. It's not worth it for me to pay for a lawyer to handle this case, but I really feel I was deeply cheated.
Now they have made their choice, they refunded my opened pack to let me know they choose to ignore and to refuse to fulfill the order, to let me know "I am just a customer, a customer is nothing and they can do whatever they want".
So I'm here, not to discuss the issue, or to say or hear voices regarding they are right or wrong. They refunded the opened pack to me today without making any agreement with me or sending any notification, just like I'm not a customer. They can refund yours at anytime, too, just like you are not a customer either. They used us to finish their false advertising joke this time, they can make bigger jokes tomorrow. They ruined our holiday, held our money for their own use without paying, played us with shame. You can walk away and pretend nothing happened, but if you are sharing the same feeling as mine, you can raise a PayPal Dispute before they actively refund your order. It's just a very little thing, you loose nothing doing this, but you can act like a customer honorably.
You can choose yes or no, you can also choose do something or nothing. It's up to you. They have made their choice, you can make yours, too. It's all up to you. Thanks for reading.
Again, please don't discuss right or wrong here, there's many other threads for the discussion. Please don't fire on opposite opinions.
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